Fans praise the December 14 episode as the best of the year, with discussion about a fan's appreciation for the character Susan and debate about what makes her appealing compared to other characters.
<Someone is obsessed with Susan!>
Really? Who?
I don't think I'm anymore obsessed with Susan than the rest of you are obsessed with Seinfeld. You all watch Seinfeld quite a bit and talk about Seinfeld quite a bit for different reason, mine just happens to be Susan. Why does that make me obsessive?
"If its any consolation, Apu, I've found that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead. Homer Simpson
In article , [email] says...
What would Kramer say? "You love her..."
Brian
In article , [email] (JCS21212) writes:
about
What's so great about Susan? What do you like about her?
<What's so great about Susan? What do you like about her?
I like just about everything about her; from her looks to her dress to her demeanor. Unlike the other characters on Seinfled the character of Susan has no fatal flaw that could possibly make her unappealing. George is neurotic, Jerry is superficial (Jerry's not as bad as the other three though), Kramer is rude and fairly one dimensional, and Elaine is the devil incarnate. Every episode Susan is in is great and I don't think this is coincidence. I think that the reason my opinion seems so odd is that my first criteria is not how funny the character is (Jerry, George, and Kramer are far more humorous than Susan most of the time) but the character overall. Since Susan has no bad points (except that she is underused) and the other characters all do, Susan wins my contest for best character. As I have said before, a signficant reason Susan is my favorite is that she is the most attractive person I've ever seen and I guess this influences me a good deal. I have other posts with more details and its late so thats all I'll say except this: Explain to me why people DISlike Susan so much?
"If its any consolation, Apu, I've found that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead. Homer Simpson
In [email] (JCS21212) writes:
Because she's not funny. Period. As a character, she's fine. However, on a sitcom, the purpose of a character is to be funny. Since she is not funny, she really is a waste of time and space on Seinfeld. There are shows out there to watch for great characterization but no humor whatsoever. Seinfeld is not one of them. Susan does not belong unless she is funny.
In article ,
Far be it for me to jump to defense of the Susan defenders, but I must say that Susan DOES belong on the show -- not because she's funny (which she usually isn't), but because she's a catalyst for plot points.
As JCS has pointed out, many shows' plots hinge on some initiative from Susan, e.g., she invites Jerry to her father's cabin, she works at NBC, she's available to be thrown up on, she gets engaged to George. She's essential to the show in a way other than humor.
Paul
<As JCS has pointed out, many shows' plots hinge on some initiative <from Susan, e.g., she invites Jerry to her father's cabin, she works <at NBC, she's available to be thrown up on, she gets engaged to George. <She's essential to the show in a way other than humor.
<Paul
I about had a stroke when I read this. Reason! From the someone other than me! Its amazing! But seriously, what he says here is true and its what I've been saying for a month or two now. Susan is indispensable to the show and there are other criteria for judging characters on television than humor.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
No she isn't, humor is everything on Seinfeld.
------------- Well of course she is! None of the shows without Susan were funny in any way (Seinfeld is a comedy, isn't it?). The previous statement was sarcasm, don't quote it out of context. I shouldn't have to point out sarcasm to any Seinfeld fans, but....
Susan isn't essential or indispensable to Seinfeld. But having a plain, normal character like Susan is helpful in showing how humorous and odd all the other characters are. Doesn't have to be Susan though, anyone would do. However, the show wouldn't be as popular if ANY of THE FOUR characters were removed. The show would die out!
Not for Seinfeld, which is comedy pure and simple.
These Susan admirers seem to be making something out of nothing!
Greg.
In article , JCS21212 wrote: :<As JCS has pointed out, many shows' plots hinge on some initiative :<from Susan, e.g., she invites Jerry to her father's cabin, she works :<at NBC, she's available to be thrown up on, she gets engaged to George. :<She's essential to the show in a way other than humor. : :<Paul : :I about had a stroke when I read this. Reason! From the someone other :than me! Its amazing! But seriously, what he says here is true and its :what I've been saying for a month or two now. Susan is indispensable to :the show and there are other criteria for judging characters on television :than humor. :
But, none of the above situations require that the character be Susan; any <fill in character here> could have been such a catalyst. Think, man think!
Yes, this is the basic crux of the matter. Any character, recurring or nonrecurring, could be the catalyst. Susan's personality, looks, habits, etc. are unimportant.
This is why I say Susan is not an important character to the show. If we didn't need someone for George to be engaged to, we wouldn't even be seeing Susan any more.
Paul
<But, none of the above situations require that the character be Susan; any <fill in character here> could have been such a catalyst. Think, man think!>
Its you who isn't thinking. Susan could not be replaced in the episodes where she is vital to the plot (which are most of the ones she is in) and she is not merely a catalyst. I have stated why many times and won't bother to do so here.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
I'm sorry. I really don't see what all the fuss is about Susan. Does she make alot of jokes? I don't see them. Geez, did she even SAY a single line on the 1/5 show? I don't the characters have written her to be funny. Look at their amusing characters so far: Newman, psychotic mailman; Kramer, crazy neighbor with way too many problems; George, neurotic short bald guy; Seinfeld, stand-up comedian; Elayne, the woman (no offense, but alot of the stereotypical women things she comes up with are the basis of her comedy, though she takes them to an unreal level); then there's Susan, George's fiance, and NBC exec. She is NOT meant to be funny by any means. She is a straight character. She is the latest recurring character. I think that they decided to have the plot where George gets married (or just engaged) and they had to grab an old girlfriend as he most likely wouldn't get married with any girl off the street, they chose the most well put-together girlfriend he's had so far, Susan. Logical choice. She wouldn't be in the show at all if they didn't choose that plot. And who would we rather have? The accused belimia lady? The nose job lady? I think all of you ladies are just jealous that George is now taken and none of you can have him!
There isn't really a lot of fuss. There is a person who enjoys defending Susan, and there is a lively debate between this person and the rest of this newsgroup. Lately, I have been one of his (her?) staunchest opponents. Anyway there are a lot of posts on the subject and it makes it seem like there is a lot of fuss.
Right. I don't think she is written to be funny either. I think she is mostly there to help create situations for the other characters to get themselves into.
This paragraph is right on target, IMO. You are right in particular, that she's only there because she was the most convenient of George's ex- girfriends for him to get engaged to. And even that was a stretch, since she was a lesbian last we saw.
I hadn't thought of that. I really don't know if the Susan defender is a man or a woman. But I get the feeling that it's a man with a serious crush.
Paul
In article , [email] (JCS21212) writes:
She has one flaw, she was once vomitted on, which can in turn make her unappealing.
Her flaw, I think, is her extreme sensitivity and possibly her naiveness..but the show has yet to develope more on this flaw...
Elaine is the devil incarnate???!!?
In article <lob it right in there>, [email] (Mindcrimer) writes:
Susan.
C'mon JCS, you've gotta be sending straight lines like this to yourself !!!
HF
"Just keep thinkin" Butch.That's what yer good at!"
-Sundance Kid<C'mon JCS, you've gotta be sending straight lines like this to yourself !!!>
Yeah, I like saying the same thing over and over again. I'm involved in a huge conspiracy so I can answer fixed questions on an internet newsgroup about Seinfeld. I don't think so.
"If its any consolation, Apu, I've found that life is one crushing defeat after another until you just wish Flanders was dead. Homer Simpson
On Thu, 4 Jan 1996, Richard Bachner wrote:
Well, then, we must conclude that Susan is a great character, but she's on the wrong show. There. End of discussion. :) :)
Maybe they should transfer her to 90210201035934101000210...
<BECAUSE SHE'S NOT FUNNY!!!! IT's A COMEDY!!! Sheeeesh!
So Elaine's unpleasantness is inherently funny and Susan's pleasantness is inherently not funny. Why? Why does physicial and human misery add up to humor? Elaine is nothing but mean and cruel and people find this funny. I don't understand why and no one has said why either.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
Because it's not happening to us. Humor allows us an escape from physical and human misery by letting us laugh about it. Don't you know this? Witness the Three Stooges. Physical pain involved. Millions laughed though.
Really, JCS, you must know that human suffering is not INHERENTLY funny, as you so obtusely concluded above. But, presented the right way, human suffering CAN BE funny. And that kind of humor is as old as history.
You don't understand why because your sense of humor is limited. You take Elaine's cruelty too literally, and deprive yourself of the fun of laughing at her. It's just a show -- there really isn't an Elaine in the world, hurting people. But it's okay to laugh at it when it's just "pretend". Get it?
Paul
<You don't understand why because your sense of humor is limited. You take Elaine's cruelty too literally, and deprive yourself of the fun of laughing at her. It's just a show -- there really isn't an Elaine in the world, hurting people. But it's okay to laugh at it when it's just "pretend". Get it?>
Sociologists and psychologists asserted a controversial argument around thirty years ago that constant exposure to an event desensitives viewers to the event. They were, of course, referring to violence and violence on television. Thirty years ago, they were laughed at and their arguments thought ridiculous. Now in this time of complete social collapse, with crime on every street corner, and thousands dying every year as a result of the breakdown of domestic peace, they don't look quite so stupid. Your argument is the same thing. The fact is there are millions of Elaines running around in the world, acting like jerks to millions of Jerries, Kramers and Georges. The fact is, this kind of conduct is now acceptable and the NORM! Furthermore, it has only become funny because television defines it as such. Most certainly, I am taking Elaine to the farthest extreme but just as certain, my point is valid. Elaine is no more funny than watching cars run over people or dogs rip apart children. Its all unpleasant and it shouldn't be funny (but is considered as such). I don't think Elaine is funny and I don't think she's comparable to the Three Stooges (who weren't total jerks).
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
JCS21212 ([email]) wrote:
Maybe this explains why JCS is so *interested* in Susan. (He gets upset when people call him obsessed.) Just as some people learn violence from television, JCS has internalized the Susan dynamic. He has fallen in love with her bland niceness. Nothing else matters, not even humor. Beware, the rest of us could become pod people as well.
Now Elaine is worse than the Three Stooges? This is really too much. When did Elaine ever break dishes over someone's head or twist someone's nose with a pair of pliers? When did she even go so far as to throw a pie in someone's face. (I know what's coming: Another post in which JCS says, "I'm extreme, I'm in a tiny minority, but I'm right.")
<And Susan, I must admit, looked very pretty in "The Rye"(now B.Phillips <can't get mad). However, Elaine is more sexy.
Although, she was underutilized in this episode, I agree with you and think Susan looked better in the Rye than in any other episode she's been in. Again, Elaine looked awful (did you see the red in her "black" hair. I was right afterall) and doesn't even begin to compare with Susan.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article <you meant,"not" I presume>, [email] (JCS21212) writes:
Freudian Slip???
HF
"I'm on a road...uhh...looks to be asphalt...umm...ah, geez. trees,shrubs,ah...I'm directly under the Earth's sun...mmm...now!" -Chief Wiggum
<Two episodes dumbass. I wouldn't be so mean, but......well I just can't <stand you.
Listen up you pathetic, uncivilized piece of worm manure. Susan and the other woman in question were on the COUCH in the episode the pilot. Maybe if you had watched it and payed attention you'd know that. That makes ONE episode where she acts like a lesbian. I'm sick of your cursing at me and while I have done nothing to insult you or to degrade your position you continue to hurl vile messages of a sick nature and degrading insults toward me. You have no reason to not stand me but you have given me every reason to HATE you.
<Nobody dislikes her, but she's no match for Elaine. Elaine is one of the <4 pieces that make that show so great.
People are obsessed with evil. We like evil television characters and take great pleasure in watching human misery. I don't really understand why, but its true. What else could possibly explain the dozens of statements just like the one above. Elaine is mean, arrogant, condescending and cruel and everyone loves her for it. "She's funny." "She's what the show works." "If she were nicer, why would we watch." It doesn't make any sense at all to me that this character is as popular as she is. I like villains and in most cases will enjoy the bad guy far more than the good guy but Elaine is not a villain. She doesn't have diabolical plots or goals, she's just purposefully cruel toward the other characters on the show and I really don't understand what's so humorous and appealing about that. Susan is far more pleasant and yet appears to be far less popular. It doesn't add up.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
What's so hard to understand about that? Isn't it a sitcom? Why do YOU watch the show? Right now the only thing I can think of is you like to gawk at the most beautiful woman you've ever seen. Of all your posts, that's the only reason I can come up with. Unless you count the dubious, "she doesn't annoy me" quality.
This isn't a video dating service, it's a situation comedy. I don't watch it because I aspire to be just like the noble characters. I watch it because I want to laugh. The main characters make me laugh directly. Susan makes me laugh, indirectly, by helping to create the situations that the other characters find themselves in. If a character doesn't make me laugh, directly or indirectly, then what good are they? Why would you want to remove the humor by making the characters nice?
And of course, I disagree with the degree to which you assess Elaine's maleficence. She's kind of unethical at times, but I'd hesitate to sentence her to hell just yet.
Paul
<This isn't a video dating service, it's a situation comedy. I don't <watch it because I aspire to be just like the noble characters. I watch <it because I want to laugh. The main characters make me laugh directly. <Susan makes me laugh, indirectly, by helping to create the situations <that the other characters find themselves in. If a character doesn't <make me laugh, directly or indirectly, then what good are they? <Why would you want to remove the humor by making the characters nice?
<And of course, I disagree with the degree to which you assess Elaine's <maleficence. She's kind of unethical at times, but I'd hesitate to <sentence her to hell just yet.
Paul>
You are totally incorrect. Susan is far more than just attractive. I would address this point but I'll address the most important first. I don't think human misery is funny at all. I don't enjoy watching one person deliberately antagonize other people without a clear goal in mind and thus I certainly don't like Elaine. Especially since Elaine masquerades as the other three character's friend. Newman is acceptable because knows and accepts he's evil (except Kramer) but everyone treats Elaine likes she's one of the group and she treats the like they're dirt. Elaine is the only character on the show who relies on cruelty for her "humor". Kramer doesn't. Jerry doesn't even come close (if anything Jerry is the except opposite of cruel, note the Jan. 4th episode. Elaine would never have done anything like that). George doesn't. You still didn't answer my question. Why do people like Elaine's brand of humor? Is is funny to see someone be mean to other people? All Elaine does anymore is cause damage to other characters or insult them. The show could succeed without her. The show would be BETTER without her.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article , [email] (Mindcrimer) writes:
Good call Mindcrime