I just wanted to introduce myself (and re-introduce!). I'm Toni, and I'll be the new Pledge Enforcer of alt.tv.southpark. As many of you might be aware of, the Pledge is something my dear friend Joe (aka Covenant) created as a ways of diminishing the troll population. To sum it, those who have signed the Pledge have promised to never reply to any troll posts......and this extends to replying to people who have replied to the troll post. Do you see what I mean? Basically, we don't want to add any sort of response to the troll's thread. This is where I come in.
I know there's newbies floating out there, unaware of the inner workings of a newsgroup. Therefore, they are the ones who will most likely fall into the trolls' trap and reply to their insidious posts. When that happens, I'm going to come in and ask the newbie to please not reply to the trolls anymore, and hopefully other newbies who see my warning will follow suit. I'm considering whether or not send such warnings as a private email as well. In addition I will invite the newbie to sign the Pledge, which can be done by emailing Covenant or looking in the FAQ (shameless plug eh Joe?)
Anyway, I guess that's all I have to say for now. Any comments or suggetions please email me in private. Thanks!
1) " I'm Toni, and>I'll be the new Pledge Enforcer of alt.tv.southpark. As many of you>might be aware of, the Pledge is something my dear friend Joe (aka>Covenant) created as a ways of diminishing the troll population. "
ok...thank you for the information, your position is duly noted...as is the sole source of your authority...the aformentioned "Pledge".
2) To sum >it, those who have signed the Pledge have promised to never reply to any >troll posts.....
Ok...so we establish that you ONLY have authority over the signatories of the Pledge. All others have not explicitly agreed to its terms, and therefore are outside of your jurisdiction.
3) "This is where I come in I know there's newbies floating out there, unaware of the inner workings of a newsgroup. Therefore, they are the ones who will most likely fall into the trolls' trap and reply to their insidious posts. When that happens, I'm going to come in and ask the newbie to please not reply to the trolls anymore, and hopefully other newbies who see my warning will follow suit
This is beyond the authority granted by the Pledge. As a public service it is fine and to be commended...but you will be acting outside of your authority.
4) I'm considering whether or not send such warnings as a private email as well.
This is a no-no...that is unsolicited e-mail and can be construed as "Spam" or "Offensive Content" (you are basically requesting they conform to behaviour you have no authority to impose).
5) In addition I will invite the newbie to sign thePledge, which can be done by emailing Covenant or looking in the FAQ(shamemeless plug eh Joe?)
Once again we have the root of the problem, until an individual agrees to be bound by the rules of this "Pledge", you have NO AUTHORITY whatsoever. An attempt to recruit an individual to sign the agreement is fine however.
5) Anyway, I guess that's all I have to say for now. Any comments or suggetions please email me in private. Thanks!
I would have e-mailed my response, but i felt that it was important that the entire group understand the significance of signing an agreement and the actual binding effect of same.
Actually, it is an understood "responsibility" of the enforcer (or is it "moderator" now?) to greet the new folks who respond to trolls by letting them know of the PLEDGE and to inform them that there is an effort to reduce the troll population in this NG going on.
Actually, several NGs do send the group FAQ to new folks posting on the NG for the first time (alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan is one example). I actually found it informative regarding general questions, as well as accepted "rules of conduct" for the NG. Perhaps sending a copy of the FAQ website would be more acceptable, along with the reason for the message (ie- "you are new to the group and may want to take a look at the FAQ website")?
All she indicated was an invitation to read and join the PLEDGE in this part of her message. The authority question was addressed above.
Understood, and appreciated.
Likewise. Good job pointing out possible flaws (hell, they may be actual flaws, my legal knowledge base isn't that big).
The Pledge isn't a source of authority.....it's just a Pledge, plain and simple. It was not created to restrict the newsgroup but rather to help alleviate our problem with trolls. I only subscribe to this newsgroup, but I'm quite aware of other helpless newsgroups that have been practically taken over by trolls.
Actually, I have no authority to anyone. I'm not going to be a netcop who'll come down on people really hard if he or she responds to the trolls. I'm just here to ask new people to please refrain from replying to troll posts.
You keep bringing up this idea of authority. Like I said before, the Pledge was created as a means of encouraging people to make this newsgroup a better place- cheesy as it sounds. What is wrong about asking new people to please not respond to the trolls? Not only will it help decrease the troll population, as a troll may get bored and leave if few or no people respond to his/her posts, but also, there are quite a few people here who have put some trolls in their killfiles. However, if someone responds to a troll post, often times the original troll message is included in their post and everyone would see the troll post anyway, thus defeating the purpose of a killfile.
Ok, point taken.....it was just an idea someone suggested to me.
Did I say that I was going to force everyone to sign the Pledge? I believe the word I used was INVITE. If they don't want to sign, they don't have to. You're right....I have no authority to make people do anything, which is something I never said in the first place.
In addition, let me explain that everyone who has signed the Pledge did so out of their own free will. They basically consist of people who are sick and tired of troll posts that grow into extremely long threads and wanted to do something about it. Ever since the Pledge was created, the only responses to troll posts have been from newbies, and the thread dies quickly. This decrease in troll responses is also due to Jeff, who did a great job as the previous Pledge moderator.
Therefore, I see nothing wrong in asking new people to please not reply to the trolls, and then inviting them to sign the Pledge. Like I said before, you're right in that they don't have to if they don't want to-I can't make them sign it nor can I do anything if they don't want to. It's up to them to make the decision.
Okay... this is a difficult one. Don't take this the wrong way Sandman...
[email] wrote in message ...
No. We established that Toni is the Enforcer of the Pledge. Not of the signatories. There are people who have not seen the pledge as yet. And having read the Pledge, if one does not wish to sign it, hey, your choice. As is the decision to answer or not to trolls. But if you DO answer then you're gonna find yourself in a whole bunch of killfiles and then this NG will be a very lonely place for you... (more on this later...)
No, She won't, because the MAJORITY of regular posters to this NG HAVE signed the Pledge. She is acting on ALL of their authorities. AND, going by your argument, even if she were NOT 'named' she would still be within her rights as a normal everyday poster to ask people NOT to respond. Rather than have twenty people do that, (and thus increase the trolls responses per se, WE have decided that one person shall speak for the Majority of the group.)
However, that does NOT come under offensive conduct. Swearing, trying to solicite sales and peddling pornography are against most ISP's rules of use. A personal e-mail giving friendly advice from someone on an NG you frequent could no be seen as that, unless one is Terribly thin skinned.
But she can post what the hell she likes! As can anyone... (see point above..) Oh, but thank you for your approval. Can *I* ask where YOU get the authority to deem that as proper and correct? (Sorry... that narked me....)
So are you saying that they DIDN'T understand what they are signing? Have you even SEEN the Pledge?
Sandman, forgive me for sounding brusque. But this NG was riddled with trolls until the Pledge came into effect. Since then the population has decreased hugely and this is because of the work, not by myself, who created it, nor Jeff and Toni who 'enforce' it, but by the regs of the NG themselves who do NOT respond to them.
It could be suggested (Using the Troll Identification Rules..posted not long ago) that *your* actions could be deemed troll-like. (I.e. stating an opinion against those held by the majority of the NG.)
As you ARE a new poster. *I* am giving *you* the benefit of the doubt. Such is MY prerogative, not because of my 'time-served' on the NG, but just as a person posting.
You see the problem??
Hope you enjoy your stay. If you wanna Pledge then please feel free to mail me or add to this thread stating so. Check out the FAQ , and take care!
(NEXT PLEDGE POSTING.....Feb 1st)
Cheers! Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
Wait so if you disagree with the group that is a violation of the pledge. That makes no sense at all. This is a newsgroup, not a dictatorship (I realize that in this case the dictators are the people themselves). I'm sorry this is nutty. I come from the US and I'm sure most of you do too. We all live in a free country why are all of you trying to turn this ng into some sort of evil democracy. If you can't disagree with the group why post at all? I mean what the hell, the pledge moderator is nothing but a KGB agent "killing" on behalf of the people. Wake up the lot of you, you turned a ng into hell on earth for those who walk to the beat of a different drummer. If this continues the select few will shrink and shrink untill eventually 2 or 3 people decide what is a proper post and what is not. I hate trolls, and I try not to respond to them but come on their why they invented the kill file. For any ng to have a net cop is rediculous.
What, new posters have to agree with everyone else or they will be kill filed or annoyed to death.
Hope you enjoy your stay? That, my friend, was a not so subtle sarcastic way of saying "you disagree with us so leave"
I would like to add that if the majority of you disagree with me TOUGH. This is a free country.
OK, I think there may have been a miscommunication here. You can disagree with anyone about anything. That is not the point of the PLEDGE. The point of the PLEDGE is to make clear the intent of the regulars that trolls will not be tolerated. That's it, period. Disagree with folks all you want to, all that is being asked of folks is that they NOT respond to trolls.
Deja vu!! I believe this was discussed in another thread, so I won't go into it here.
How is it evil? We are not trying to stamp out folks from debating topics related (or in some cases unrelated) to the NG's subject. What we are trying to do is stop, or at the very least diminish the number of, the trolls in this NG. Don't get me started on the "free country" subject (I could rant for a while, and not on conspiracy theories either).
behalf of
You can disagree. I welcome you to disagree. But what purpose is served by responding to folks like "the b***ger" or kara1talis (who is now MC1600, I believe)? You won't win a debate with them, because their sole objective is to annoy/offend the hell out of folks. Speaking of disagreeing <g>, I don't see how the PLEDGE Enforcer is supposedly "killing" anyone. There is no Universal Killfile (hell, I don't even have a killfile).
How so? If by "different drummer", you mean folks like the two I mentioned above, great! I try to make life uncomfortable for all the racists (like kara1talis) and assholes (like the "boinger") in real life (and nothing pisses those types of folks off more than being ignored, although I must admit I have in the past, and will again in the future, go off on ignorant, racist f**ks). Freedom is great, but so is the responsibility associated with it. Folks like those two have tossed out their responsibilty, so why should we acknowledge their existence by responding to their posts?
If you've got a killfile great! I, however, don't (as I said above). And even if you have a killfile and someone responds to the original troll post, you get to see the message, even if you didn't want to.
filed or
God no! Trolls get killfiled, new folks who respond to the trolls, so those who have killfiled the trolls get to see their original messages, get asked not to respond to the trolls. If you don't agree, then fine, that's your choice. I've encountered several folks on this NG who hold differing views on different topics. Debate ensued. No one got killfiled as a result (as far as I know).
way of
I don't think any sarcasm was present. Covenant is a pretty nice guy, and wouldn't resort to the level you are picturing him as lowering to. I do believe he truly meant "enjoy your stay". That's all.
This is
And you have a right to have your opinion, as do the rest of us. It's as simple as this: If you want to respond to the trolls, fine, go ahead. Don't expect the rest of us to show you any respect for it, though. If, on the other hand, you wish to follow the harder path and ignore the trolls, regardless of how annoying and offensive you find them (believe me, I've been tempted to go off on one racist f**k in particular, on MANY occasions), then sign the PLEDGE, and ignore them. It's your choice, no one is forcing anyone to do anything here. If you do sign the PLEDGE, however, please abide by it.
According to what Covenat said making a post that disagrees with the majority of the group is a troll action, so responding to said post would be a violation of the pledge. I apologize for not explaining my view better.
Would you let me know what thread so I could go read it?
Read what I said avove.
I shouldn't have said kill, I should have said admonish.
Read my first response section. And keep in mind that what I meant when I said different drummer was disagreeing with the majority of the group.
I don't know about the rest of you, but my killfile (in Netscape Communicator 4.5) allows me to mark any thread started by someone I killfiled to be marked as read. I still have to download the headers but that doesn't take all that long anyways.
again read my original response section
In that case I appologize to Covenant, I'm a little synical.
I would like to thank you for sending me that email telling me you responded. I had already removed the ng but I readded it and here I am.
I disagree. The role of a Pledge Enforcer is to simply make sure that those who signed the Pledge stick to the agreement, at the same time asking new people not to respond to trolls and encouraging them to sign the Pledge. No one is forced to sign the Pledge, nor are new people forced to do anything. My role and the Pledge were created to help the newsgroup become a better place to be in.
I hardly call trolls and the boinger "walking to the beat of a different drummer".
And most of us on the Pledge have done the same thing; I mean, I have a killfile too.....however, it's useless if a person responds to a troll post with the original message included in it, because then we see it anyway.
It's not being a netcop- sheesh.
Well, it's a free newsgroup at least. But you're right- you don't have to sign the Pledge. It's up to you.
Craig... Read the passage *you* quoted... I said NOTHING about the Pledge in it. I said.......
long
This is the case for ALL NG's not just us with our Pledge...
Craig Winckler wrote
That
that
a
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what
behalf of
Craig, seriously... what are you on?? You come on spouting this stuff without even knowing what you are talking about. Do you KNOW how many people on here have signed this Pledge that you are critiscising? Don't you realise that the NG has taken it upon ITSELF to run with it? Are you being obnoxious merely for the sake of it?
select
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net cop
Killfiling works, to a degree. The problem is with the serial trolls who continue to change their nicks etc. and then when people respond the threads get longer and longer and then we STILL see the trolls posts, because people not only respond, they invariably quote it. Nothing is wong with walkingot the beat of a different drum. Most SP-ers DO!! But Craig, you are preaching to the MAJORITY here... We are ALL 'different' in so far as WE decided the Pledge was working. If you don't like it, don't sign it, respond to trolls all you like, but you WILL end up being killfiled by those who HAVE signed the Pledge. (The MAJORITY!) That is what Democracy is all about. Dictatorship is when one person dictates.. you said yourself...
evil
Evil Democracy? You wanna try that again??
Such
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filed or
No. Those who respond to trolls will be asked not to. End of story. If you signed the pledge you will be asked to stick by what you pledged to. Once. End of story After that... Hell, individuals decision, but you WILL be ignored and/or killfiled by a lot of people.
way of
No. And again, if you had been here for any length of time, you would see that *I* am neither subtle notr sarcastic if I don't wanna talk to people. I ignore them. I was saying to you....
Hope you enjoy your stay... Or to put it into other words.... Please enjoy your stay... No subtelty, no sarcasm, just a wisgh that you renjoy reading and participating in the NG. If you wanna read something nasty into that, I would suggest you open your mind real wide and think that maybe we are nice people here, and are NOT getting on your case...
This is
And that is all I have been trying to say. It cuts both ways. If people disagree with you you may not get many nice replies. If they DO agree with you, fine Or otherwise they may just be indifferent to you...
I'm amazed at your reaction here. you state in a previous post that you were pleased that Alt.tv.simpsons has lost it's trolls and then you jump all over the case of a huge amount of people here who have taken positive action to rid THIS NG of them too?
I don't understand craig Where is the hostility coming from??
I disagree, using that definition if I hate an epp the majority of you like I am then stating an opinion that disagrees with the one hald by the majority. Using that definition makes that post a troll. And also using the definition most of my posts to this group are troll posts. That's my point, that "rule" basically translates to disagree with the majority of the group and you are a troll. And I would like to point out that that isn't the case with all ngs. In the other one I frequent I disagree with the majority only on very rare occasion, but I do and no one has tried to call me a troll.
OK. I've lurked on this NG for a few months now, but I think it's time I came out of the closet. (So to speak!) If you post saying you did not like an episode, that's OK as far as I've seen. Sure, you may come across people who disagree, and debate can begin without killfiles being needed. But if on the other hand, you didn't like an episode, and told everyone on this group that anyone who liked it is stupid etc., I would consider you a troll and my killfile would be fired up.
This is a great place for Southpark debate. Either for or against. I didn't subscribe to see dickheads bagging Southpark and it's fans. The people who do this on our group is who I consider a troll. I don't (and neither does anyone else) have a problem with anyone who doesn't like a particular part about Southpark. If you don't like a part, tell us. If you don't like the show at all, and feel the need to bag it and us, that's when we have a problem.
Cronos
P.S. Now that I've delurked, add me to the pledge. I know what it all means, and don't have a problem doing my part.
In article , "Cronos" <info.at.willall.com.au> wrote:
Welcome, Cronos. Have a great, erg ... dare I say it ... yes, I dare, I dare! Have a great TIME! <starts laughing himself silly for the obvious pun ... what can I say, it's a weakness/addiction>
AAAaaaahhh Craig. I see your point.... The thing is that I said if you follow the troll rules. .. Myself I don't hold too much with the troll rules. (And these 'rules' are in no way a part of our pledge... It was a posting by (Dave ??) That I thought was quite humourous... However, the definition of a troll to me is simple... If somerone is posting abuse or pages of nonsense... THAT is a troll...
I have never thought you were a troll at ALL. Just a guy who found himself in the middle of something he hadn't seen before... (Please check my post to your 'coming back' post...)
Dave and I had a fairly lenghty discussion on the subject of @Legality' of copying eps etc... HE was disagreeing with a hell of a lot of people, (Me included), but we resolved the situation through discussion. The problem is one of opinion. It is very rare that one will ever change anothers opinion (On a subject that is opinion based...rather than fact based...) And even then some people won't listen to facts...
basically
And
other
I do
But no-one has said that those definitions are he case... I only said *if* you took them to be 'law'. There is no law on this NG. Just a single suggestion that one ignores trolls. That's it.. it really is that simple... Disagree with the majority as much as you like. Just keep it civilised. Don't you agree??
Sorry, that was a low blow... I'm glad you took it in that vein... ; ' )
Looks like we're clearing up the confusion huh?!! (Hope so!!)
Come on m'man... sign that Pledge!!!
(What if I undo this button.... *What if I talk like this*.... What if I sing to you??? <sings> "I gave ol' Craig a cartman...it had no hat..."
Come on craig...I can wait as long aszzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........................)
Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands Showing His OWN OFF Alliance...
True, you never did say that was the law. I probably read to much into that (who do I do that? I don't know.). Unless your a chick don't undo that button, well maybe one or two buttons wouldn't be so bad.