More Ammo for the self rightous Assholes out there......

May 22, 199871 posts by 24 posters
71 posts
Vee-One

This was posted on the Yahoo news site tonight, in the Entertainment Headlines section........

<Start Clip>

Friday May 22 8:22 PM EDT Boy's suicide note mentions cable TV's "South Park" OCEAN CITY, Md. (Reuters) - A 12-year-old boy who committed suicide left a note telling his parents to watch the cable-television cartoon series "South Park" if they wanted to know why he decided to end his life.

Police said Friday that Darron Lawrence Green was found dead on his bunk bed on the morning of May 14 with a plastic bag over his head and a 3/8-inch cord tightened around his neck with a pencil. A medical examiner in Baltimore later ruled the death a suicide.

The young victim, a Boy Scout who was schooled at home, left a suicide note that referred to "South Park," particularly the program's character Kenny, a mute third-grader who dies in every episode, the Maryland Times-Press reported.

"South Park," which has been rated for TV viewers aged 17 and older, is aired twice a week by Comedy Central, the cable channel jointly owned by Time Warner Inc. and Viacom Inc.

A day after the boy was found dead in his bedroom, Comedy Central ran a 10-episode "South Park" marathon.

The program has been criticized by parents, schools and public interest groups for its use of foul language and crude humor. But it also has been a stunning commercial success, drawing millions of young viewers and spawning lucrative video-distribution deals.

Comedy Channel released a statement about the Green suicide Friday.

"Anyone who has ever lost a family member to suicide, or knows someone who has taken his own life, knows what a horrible tragedy this is. And our hearts go out to this boy's family," the statement said.

Reuters/Variety ^REUTERS@

<End Clip>

This is all we need. In the first place, who let's their twelve-year-olds watch SouthPark? (Probably lots of over-indulgent parents). I guess it would all depend on the maturity of the kids in the first place. But then again, any kid who would kill themselves (just look at the news) is probably a little mental anyway, and would do those things, SouthPark or not. It just happens to be an evil coincedence.

Mr Vee-One (not to be confused with Mrs Vee-One, or I'll kill 'ya)

LdZuranVee-One

For one thing I don't understand how this young child was watching Southpark. Like Vee-One said, the rating for this show is set for TV viewers aged 17 and older. So wouldn't the parents of this 12 year old be responsible for their child watching unapropriate material on TV? So therefore, the parents are inadvertantly responcible for their child's death.

Well, it still hasn't been ruled conclusively that South Park "made him do it" or that he was "under the influence" of South Park when he killed himself. Even so, he would have to be a disturbed little boy.

LdZuran wrote in article ...

Southpark.

and

their

are

Andrew BalberChristopher S. Carrig

Correction, we HAD a disturbed little boy. Its sad that South Park is going to wind up the same fate as Beavis and Butthead. Banished to the land of infomercials. Did you know that the kid who set the house on fire, and eventually caused B&B to be put on later without the "Fire!," was described as a pyromaniac by social workers? Never mind that, it was Beavis' fault! The government inacted ratings for a reason. Maybe parents should look at them.

Andrew Balber

[email] [email]
JonAndrew Balber

Andrew Balber wrote:

Never a V-Chip around when you need one :-)

Jon

Andrew BalberJon

Is that v for violence?

Andrew Balber

[email] [email]
JediAndrew Balber

I think its V for Video chip, I'm sure I'm wrong on this though.

Andrew Balber wrote in message ...

Andrew BalberJedi

I know what a v-chip is. I was making a joke. I want a violence chip on my TV. The V-chip would search for violent shows, and let me watch them! :) I guess I will have to do it the old fashion way, random punching of the remote till I get to South Park.

Andrew Balber

[email] [email]
JediAndrew Balber

Oh hehe sorry, but the joke wans't clear, to me it soundend like an question. My apoligies and stuff ;-)

Besides look at the time I responded to it, my brain is only 1/4 awake by then hehe.

Andrew Balber wrote in message ...

On 23 May 1998 07:34:56 GMT, [email] (LdZuran) wrote:

Perhaps he killed himself because his parents *wouldn't* let him watch SP? Kids who are homeschooled usually have parents who are right-wing Xian goofballs (who don't watch anything but the 700 Club), or left-wing Marxist goofballs (who have "Kill Your Television" bumperstickers on their cars and don't even own TV's).

[email]
blainebiohazard

biohazard ([email]) wrote:

That may be true in most cases (homeschooling parents being some sort of wing-nut), but I'll say this. If I were a parent, and had the money and resources, there's no way I'll let my child go to a sardine can run by jocks.

Ideally, I'd choose homeschooling, but hire one or more open-minded teachers to provide professional quality education. It would be expensive as hell; but nothing worth anything is cheap.

BLAINE GORDON MANYLUK email: [email] EDMONTON, AB

In my opinion, homeschooling is for kids who have a teacher at home, whether paid or in the family. Obviously this kid wasn't getting that kind of guidance. Homeschooling should better the relationship between child and parents, not alienate them to the point where they don't know something's wrong.

Actually, the scary thing is that there are a lot of younger-than-12-year-olds watching the show. Every week I do Peer Counseling at the local elementary schools and a couple weeks ago I was a camp counselor for the same age group as the peer counseling kids (5th grade) and they ALL watch SP. I made the mistake of wearing an SP shirt at camp one day, and all the kids were like "ohmigod, a South Park shirt!" I was appalled at the number of them who watched the show. And of course they understand nothing of the show, which I'm sure is the same in the case of the 12 year old who killed himself. For example, one day at camp all my kids were asking me what licking carpet meant, because they didn't get half of what was said in that episode...

George +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ the artist formerly known as [email] George's Deranged Look At Reality: http://members.aol.com/thesnorks1/index.html Vote for your favorite Stevie Nicks song: http://www.bradfitz.com/votingbooth/nicks

Actually, you'd be surprised what twelve-year-olds understand. There are one or two on this newsgroup that write South Park scripts with astonishing skill and understanding.

Timespace9 wrote in article ...

younger-than-12-year-olds

elementary

group as

mistake

"ohmigod, a

show.

same

at

didn't

JonChristopher S. Carrig

Christopher S. Carrig wrote:

Sure, some young kids are incredibly mature for their age but your average twelve year old definitely is not. You just can't expose kids to this kind of sexual inuendo. What I want to know is what are these kids doing watching this show. Here in Canada SP is on at midnight on fridays and only recently at 10:00 on thursdays. I'm not sure what it's on in the U.S. but kids definitely should not be up at this time. I put the blame squarely on parents for not paying attention to what their kids watch on TV. Parents just aren't envolved in their children's lives anymore. That's one of the reasons why kids are so screwed up now.

Jon

I didn't know until someone told me...but then again, when I learned I wish I hadn't.

GUMPELSVee-One

My mom. She lets *me*. Yep, I'm a preteen! A kid! And I curse! And watch South Park! And do weird sh*t! But nothing as weird as that...

OK, everyone tells me I'm smarter than most 12-year olds.. <grins> Well, ok, not everyone. But even the most stupid 12-year old would not be THAT stupid. <thinks> OK, the episode before the marathon was Mecha-Streisand. Kenny was strangled by the tetherball pole. 'Oh, look, this cartoon that has NOTHING to do with real life just went and strangled himself, and look at him! He's back next week! I think I'll choke myself now to see if it works!' If the kid is that stupid, maybe he *should* die (or at least slap himself a few times until he grasps fiction and reality). I can understand someone who's, like, 7, but c'mon, *12*?! <switches off her classic 'ramble mode'> OK, that was a little mean. But I want to see a copy of the note, just to see *how* Kenny was mentioned. Maybe we'll know the truth. It's not South Park, it's a kid's screwed-up head.

JonGUMPELS

GUMPELS wrote:

You are way too cinical for your age :-) I like it. But then again you sound smarter than the average 12 year old. What I wanna know is why the kid was home schooled... Could be missing a little of that common sense that comes with being around the real world.

LdZuranJon

True. Home schooling does neglect a kid from having common sense. There is alot that public schools teach students that isn't even part of the ciriculium. They learn to defend themselves, how to talk to people, they learn to judge personallities. Home schooled kids end up as hermits :). Also I would like to say, "Oh my god, the kid killed himself, you bastard!"

TwiddleLdZuran

Regrettably, public schools do NOT seem to be doing a very good job of teaching a few other things... like math, english, history, science, tolerance of alternative lifestyles, etc. Parents are stuck with precious few choices, and having to decide which trade-off to accept ("do I want my kids to LEARN something or develop social skills?") is, at the least, a difficult decision.

Twiddle

JediTwiddle

Well since that kid was home schooled it leads me to wonder, why was he home schooled in the first place? Did he have any "special" needs that prevented him to attend public school? Maybe he couldn't cope with the every day stress associated with dealing with other people, and if so, deffinetly not an appropriate candidate to have watching South Park. Now I'm not saying that everyone that is home schooled has mental problems or is in any way mentally slow, but that the possibility exists that the reason "this" kid stayed at home was that he was not all there in the head to begin with. Ofcourse maybe the parents where like the ultra puritanical conservative to the hilt type and didn't want their son to be exposed to the "evils" of dealing with his fellow peers in a social environment like school and planned to keep him safely locked away at home for his "protection" until the ripe mature age of 45. In this situation, even I would have killed myself aswell I think. Well, for whatever the reasons, it is a tragic situation nonetheless and even more so that South Park has been implicated.

Twiddle wrote in message ...

is

ciriculium.

judge

Vee-OneJedi

Mike Cohen wrote in message ...

They are home-schooled and haven't killed themselves YET? Damn this cruel world!!!!!!!!!!

Mr Vee-One

JediVee-One

OH man, YOU DON'T want to get me started on the Hanson issue. For the sake of this newsgroup, trust me on this one. haha ;-)

Vee-One wrote in message ...

Vee-OneJedi

Jedi wrote in message ...

Now you've got me curious. Does that mean you are PRO-Hanson? If so, then YOU DIE, YOU DIE AND GO TO HELL!!!!!!! If you are ANTI-Hanson, then you are OK by me (BTW, I'm 29 yrs old, so my music is the late 70's/entire 80's rock)

Mr Vee-One

JediVee-One

PRO WHAT!!?? ME? YOU SURELY ARE MAD!

No way, Hanson must DIE! theya are the spawn of the evil one and brother of the unholy trinity! as in the 3 of 'em.

Or as Eric Cartman might say:

MMMMMbboooppp <------------ Shut up you damn Hippies! You all suck!

Thank You.

Vee-One wrote in message ...

sake

are

That's what I said. Also, his reference to South Park might have been something obscure, like the fact that every time Kenny gets killed, Stan says, "Oh my God, they killed Kenny!" Maybe he was trying to imply that a "they" drove him to it. I know it sounds pretty screwed up, but let's take a look at the party involved here. If ever I kill myself, remind me to write an unambiguous suicide note.

Jedi wrote in article ...

home

prevented

JediChristopher S. Carrig

Yea I agree, to us his comments about South Park don't make any sence other than to acuse the show of his suicide reasons. But for him at that moment it might have meant, like Christopher has stated, a metaphor for something else in his life. I mean if a kid is that despondent (for whatever the reasons) as to commit suicide, you can't really expect him to be crystal clear on his suicide note now can you.

P.s. Sorry Chris that it appeared that I just straight quoted your own post in mine, but I wrote mine before I even read yours. I guess we must think alike or something... hehe yea a scary thought isn't it. ;-)

Christopher S. Carrig wrote in message ...

There are only two things that scare me: nuclear war and circus folk.

Jedi wrote in article ... >I guess we must think > alike or something... hehe yea a scary thought isn't it. ;-)
Andrew BalberJedi

Mike Cohen wrote:

Maybe that explains the horrible, HORRIBLE, music? If you could call it that.

Andrew Balber

[email] [email]

While this is a sad thing, it sounds to me that this child, who was being home-schooled, lending to the possibility that he had problems in the public school system(i. e. mental health, disciplinary, et cetera) I might add, was simply depressed and despondent enough to kill himself. No real relation to South Park. His reference to Kenny was likely some kind of metaphor that only his parents would understand, or maybe only he would. I don't think he was trying to act out something he saw on television. Since I don't know all of the details, I can't be sure, but it seems that this boy was disturbed in some way, perhaps disturbed enough to find Kenny's continual death so depressing that he ended his life.

At any rate, all of this is conjecture until the whole story is told. My prayers go out to his family, and I hope that they find peace.

Christopher S. Carrig

XKVee-One

Is it just me, but why in god's name would anyone commit suicide to SOuth Park? It makes you piss yourself laughing, not want to top yourself. Perhaps the young man thought he'd come back to life if he did it, like Kenny. But come on - he has no idea.

My brother's 12 and we watch SP and he jsut thinks it's funny as hell. But then again we are British, and our cultures are *that* bit more serious. (Like I went drinking alcohol for 12 hours yesterday (12-12) at the age of 18, and I'd get locked up for that in the US, but I just got told to eat something so I didn't throw up all over...)

- * - * - * http://surf.to/kenickie Oooohhh! I'm in heaven - I have been told... - * - * - * Take your arse out of my e-mail to respond. - * - * - * Favourite current track - Kenickie - "I Would Fix You"

Vee-One wrote in message ...

probably

Just because the kid left a note for the parents to watch Southpark to figure it all out does not mean that Southpark had anything to do with the suicide. Perhaps he identified with one of the characters because of the way he perceived he was being treated by his parents.

The clip indicated that the boy was home-schooled. I have no axe to grind with home schoolers in general, but many religious zealots home school their kids, and I would not be ready to dismiss some degree of religious fanaticism and repression on the part of the 12 year old's parents as a cause of the suicide (assuming the parents were so inclined).

No offense, but *everyone* thinks they're mature at age 12, 15, etc. Wait until you're in high school and cringe when you look back at what you liked & how you dressed in middle school. Then wait until you're in college and look back at how you acted & dressed in high school. It's a never-ending process.

So are T-shirts that say "fuck you, bitch" and "Eat shit and die". Does that mean 10-year olds should be wearing them to school?

Wow, you waited until you were 11 to use the f-word? I would've had my mouth washed out with soap. Just more proof how times have changed.

I didn't say *what* specific shirts they were banning, as I don't know. It's not the shirts so much as what they represent.

"anti-gay fat ass"? See, you're already mimicking the show. Beavis and Butthead merely started the trend that SP is capitalizing on.

No, it just means that your parents aren't supervising what you watch. Not surprising, as a lot of parents don't.

Sorry, but I just can't see SP as family-oriented programming, even if your mom watches it with you. That's why it has the MA-rating.

Seriously, you call your teacher a bitch?? And you don't get in trouble for that???

Finally some common sense!! Maybe society isn't doomed after all...

Pam V.K.

<Very long criticism snipped>

I'm not going to discuss your opinions since I have some of my own and I don't need to steal the Christian Coalition's. There are two worlds, madame: the world of parents, and the world of children. In between is where the family should be, but you're right, family just isn't what it used to be. Even if families were closer, these worlds would always be separate because parents don't tell their kids everything(and they usually don't explain the things that junior overhears while Mommy-Daddy talk is going on), and kids shouldn't tell their parents everything. Some things, I grant you, kids should discuss with their parents if they are the type of parents who you can talk to(my parents, on the other hand, weren't; I attempted suicide when I was seven years old and my parents were more interested in yelling at me for it than for finding out my motivation).

Everybody is the center of the universe. That's how human beings work. So every age group should be able to mentally support itself(financial support isn't feasible for first-graders) without depending on the other groups who have problems and concerns of their own. How many kids have been yelled at for interrupting Daddy while he's working? How many don't see their parents until six o'clock? Kids need their secrets and their pal-societies and their four-letter words that they don't know the meanings of and would never say in front of their parents. It's how they cope with our realities, the ones we thrust upon them when it's usually most convenient for us.

The issue of kids watching South Park is not about parenting. If your kids watch South Park, whether or not you let them, and they don't understand part of it, as they shouldn't, when they don't feel comfortable asking you for clarification, that's an issue of parenting. Parenting is not control of your kids, it's guiding your kids in the right direction. I'm completely against permissive parenting, so don't take it that way. I mean that kids are going to do whatever they think they can do. Parents clean up the mess. Good parents are there for their kids when the messes happen.

South Park and other adult programming thus far have not been a major sources of messes(disregard the suicide case, since there isn't enough information to make a judgement).

Sincerely,

Christopher S. Carrig

JediChristopher S. Carrig

Very good statement, I was going to post something similar, but you said it much better I must admit.

Christopher S. Carrig wrote in message ...

GUMPELSJedi

<sighs> Good, now I don't have to feel all weird arguing with a complete stranger 15 years older than me. You said it all.

Just delurking to say that SP is very popular with kids (who should not be watching it, in my opinion). (I'm posting from the US, btw.) From local newspaper articles I have read SP merchandise is very popular in schools and teachers are not liking the language some kids are now using in class. I live in a very conservative part of the country, and there is talk of banning SP T-shirts from the school dress code. I think they had to do it when Beavis & Butthead was popular too.

Agreed. But I think they tape the show to watch later, or watch videos at a friend's house. It's amazing how kids can get around their parents' rules.

I agree totally. As much as I like SP, I don't think kids should watch it because they tend to mimic what they see. Apparently bad language and lack of respect is so bad in schools that teenagers (and younger) routinely call their teachers bitches. Also "f*ck you, bitch" is a common response to "why don't you have your homework done?". That may be funny on SP, but not in the classroom. (I don't even want to get into the shootings...)

Pam V.K.

<Cartman impression> Thaat's right! <grins> You're readin' the response o' one of them. (Ok, maybe my scripts don't have all that much skill, but I'm mature!)

Yeah, bright, colorful, occasionally witty, contains a pop-culture phenomenon, even at $25 a pop, we love it!

Oh, c'mon, I knew the word f*ck at age 8 (though I didn't know what it meant until I was almost 11, nor did I use it) and I've seen people who use f*ck and sh*t like they mean 'grass' and 'shoe'.

Oh, yes, a shot of the four boys standing in the snow with ampathetic looks on their faces should be banned *IMMEDIATLY*! And that angry look on Cartman's face, it's Satanism, I tell you!

*Never* compare B&B merchandise with SP merchandise. They are totally different. C'mon 'Tommy Pull-my-finger?' The only time I see that is on the anti-gay fat ass in my class who acts like a redneck but has never gotten past fishing in his life-hey! Cartman's offspring! So *that's* what it looks like!

<frowns> Guess that makes me bad.

My mom is. She's even watched SP a few times (I hid it in fear of her and the almighty remote until I found her laughing her ass off at Tom's Rhinoplasty at midnight on Sunday..the first time she'd seen it, but hey, who am I to complain?).

No, no, only if they *are* bitches. Like, my Math teacher is great, but my Reading teacher needs psyciatric help.

If my parents heard that they would ground me from AOL for 2 eternities (and they know how much I love the computer!)

Just my $0.02...

-GUMPELS

I was going to reply to her, but GUMPELS made enough excellent points to satisfy my pro-South Park sensibilities. Good work, Gumpels.

Of course, what you're about to read is the REAL story. Thanks to Paul Harvey for forwarding this on to me rather than waste it on his radio show.

Absolutely. And parents are responsible for the upbringing of their children. I'm glad we agree.

Um, yes it is. Actually it's about a *lack* of parenting.

I don't know what you mean by this. The parents obviously are the ones in control. Chores, curfews, rules against tattoos, nipple piercings, and bad language are all examples of the parents taking control. What would be the alternative, something like "well I don't really want you to get a tattoo, but you can do whatever you like and I won't punish you?"

*Some* kids are going to do whatever they can get away with. If the parents don't take control, the kids will get away with everything and anything.

So now it's just assumed that your kids will disobey you, so why bother with rules and discipline? Not a good viewpoint to take, in my opinion.

I think you've missed the point. The original poster said that South Park is not appropriate for children, mainly due to the language and sexual references. I happen to agree with him. If you think I'm being a Nazi, think this over: Doug Herzog, the President of Comedy Central, agrees with me. He was so worried about children watching the show he almost didn't put it on AT ALL. He only very reluctantly put the show on with the condition that it air at 10 PM or later and have the MA rating.

I feel he's done his job. It's up to the parents to make sure their kids aren't taping it or watching it at friend's houses.

Pam V.K.

[email] (Pam Von Krosigk) wrote:

i am a 41/F and regularly watch southpark with my 14-year-old-son -- we both laugh our asses off!!! (he's a straight A student, by the way...)

aileen ([email])
AshReadasw

laugh our asses off!!! (he's a straight A >student, by theway...

In my family my sister (9) and myself (16) watch it everyweek, and my mom's been known to watch an episode or two (she loved "Ike's Wee Wee"), and i got my uncle hooked on it, and my grandma watched it, and liked it... so does that mean my whole family is full of bad parents?

Spazley (aka Ashley)

"It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are."� e. e. cummings

Bad? Maybe, or maybe just lazy or intimidated. I assume she is watching a taped version. She's certainly not up at 10:30 PM, is she? In any case, it's my opinion that there is no way that a 9 year old should be allowed to watch SP w/o a parent or adult guardian present. I take that back, there is no way a 9 year old should watch SP.

ataped version. She's certainly not up at 10:30 PM, is >she? In any case, it's my opinion that there is no way that a 9 year >old should be allowed to watch SP w/o a parent or adult guardian >present. I take that back, there is no way a 9year old should watch >SP

Tell her that! Actually A. We live in Iowa, so its on at 9, and her bedtime isn't till 9:30 and B. My parents figure that she doesn't get all the jokes anyways... and she doesn't...so thats good...

Spazley (aka Ashley)

"It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are."� e. e. cummings

All I can say that it's very disappointing that *any* attempt for a parent to set down *any* type of rules for their children is now viewed -- especially in this newsgroup -- as being militant right-wing Christian Nazi control. I guess parents are just supposed to let the little rugrats run around in the street setting fires, 'cause we sure wouldn't want the parents to be thought of as Nazis, now would we?

And Christopher's response, which basically boils down to "Kids are going to watch South Park anyway, so what can you do?" being viewed as a good response is very alarming. But not totally surprising given the state of the country these days.

I have an idea -- why don't you have the schools play unedited SP tapes to all the children, starting at age 5 in kindergarden? Why not, they're just going to watch it anyway. And they can pass out obscene T-shirs for the kids to wear -- why not, they're just going to wear them anyway. And don't forget about copies of Penthouse and Playboy for all the teenagers -- why not, they're just going to look at them anyway. Oh, and I almost forgot, condoms for all the kiddies & why stop there -- beds for screwing in the hallways. Why not, they're just going to do it anyway.

Seriously, get a grip -- I didn't say ban the show, I said that kids shouldn't be watching it as the swearing is a bad influence on them. I also said that parents should be more responsible for their kids and what they watch. There shouldn't be so much knee-jerk reaction to this "making your children obey RULES??? The Nazi!!!". Gimme a break.

PVK

JediPam Von Krosigk

Pam Von Krosigk wrote in message ...

it

Oh gimme a break, the issue here is about parents letting or not letting their children watch a TV show, not about letting them commit crimes! THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE and you sure as hell can't compare the two. And where did you get this Nazi refference from? No one is saying parents should let their kids run amock, just that its up to the parent to decide if THEIR particular kid should watch SP taking into account things like their age, maturity (including ability to distinguish reality from fantasy), and openness of the relationship between them. A parent should be there to support and nurture his kids, and to explain life not hide it.

Like I said before, it is up to the parents to decide if they will let their kids watch it based upon their judgement of the child's maturity level. Most parents that have posted here have even admitted to watching the show WITH their children. Now if thats not respossible parenting then I don't know what is. If watching South Park where an evil or criminal act then the statement "they are going to watch anyways, what can you do" WOULD be alarming and wrong, but the reality is that apart from the swearing and veiled sexual refferences in the show (that most kids don't even get and if they do it means they allready learned it from another place, most likely school, so that "damage" is allready done), there is nothing really "bad" about the show, just that its really funny.

Oh my, again with the exageration. I'm sorry to say but you tend to blow this situation completely out of proportion. Your basically comparing criminal acts, and even deviant behaviuor, to the act of letting parent's sons and/or daughters watch a TV show, even one that is rated TV-MA on a public cable channel. I mean COME ON! your even comparing SP to kids screwing their brains out in public! Not even in my own weird mind would I have come up with THAT one.

Well I would suggest you get a grip yourself, and stop crying bloody murder whenever someone says that they think that its ok for kids to watch SP (specially if supervised by a parent or guardian). And about the swearing issue, if anyone thinks kids shouldn't watch SP in part because of the swearing in the show, then by all means, kids should never be subjected to an institution where swearing runs rampant and is part of every day life, SCHOOL. Yes boys and girls, school, the place where everyone eventually learns about the facts of life (and not always in the best of ways unfortunately), learns the REAL meaning of those nasty 4 letter words heard on TV, and why you should always duck after you punch. When your kid runs in uttering a swear word or two you can be sure he did not pick it up on South Park, but you guessed it, in shcool. Now I respect your opinion as much as anyone elses, but I just see no need to reduce this show to the level of Deviancy and Criminality you reffered to above. Like I said above, it's each individual PARENT who should decide about their own kids, and not by a generalized statement that says that "no children under 17 are allowed."

-Jedi <getting off his extremely worn and torn soap box>

Do you mean me? I'm 34. And my original post wasn't directed at you, I was merely expressing my views on parenting. It was you that took it personally and got all upset.

You may find this surprising, but there were TV shows I wasn't allowed to watch when I was your age (14, right?). I had to go to bed at 8:30, which at the time seemed so unfair to me. VCRs weren't on the market yet so there was no taping shows to watch later. (Also no computers yet.) I'd get halfway through an hour long show starting at 8 and then miss the ending. My mom would tell me how it ended the next morning.

Yet somehow I survived. :) And really, it's just a TV show. It'll be available forever on video. Even if your parents told you you couldn't watch it until you were 18, you'd still get to see the show -- eventually. But it's pretty much up to them at this point.

Pam V.K.

Estimate. And yes, I mean you.

And my original post wasn't directed at<BR>

Not your original, no, but your reply to me. I wanted to simply express the views that several others already said in replying to what you said to *me*.

You've made really good points.

It was you<BR>

I haven't taken anything personally, as far as I've seen, maybe I came across that way. Just expressing my views.

<shrugs> That was your parents' choice.

12. And I think this post in itself is an example of my maturity (just to get that in there)

I had to go to bed at 8:30,<BR>

That's really different from South Park, but good point. Don't see how it's relevant, though..

And really, it's just a TV show.

Yep, even with how it's my latest obsession, and all of my theories, I agree whole-fartedly <sarcastically> oh ho ho, ha ha ha.

It'll<BR>

Well, the first 6, anyway..they still have tapes of 8 year-old cancelled (most likely, by the time I'm 17) TV shows Even if your parents told you you<BR>

GUMPELSGUMPELS

<mixed curses> Hit send before I was done, ok, let's try this again...

Estimate. And yes, I mean you.

And my original >post wasn't directed at<BR>

,Not your original, no, but your reply to me. I wanted to simply express

I was merely expressing my views on parenting.

You've made really

It was you<BR>

<shrugs> That was your parents' choice.>

(14,
  • And I think this post in itself is an example of my maturity

I had to go to bed at 8:30,<BR>>>which at the time seemed so unfair to me. VCRs weren't on the market<BR>

That's really different from South Park, but good

And really, it's just a TV

Yep, even with how it's my latest obsession, and all of my theories, I>agreewhole-fartedly <sarcastically> oh ho ho, ha ha ha.

It'll<BR>

Well, the first 6, anyway..they still have >tapes of 8 year-old cancelled (mostlikely, by the time I'm 17) TV shows?

Even

Yeah, as I've said, my mom sees it occasionally, and she says I can watch it as she feels I am mature enough and that I won't use such language, etc., as they use it on the show.

There were at least two people here calling me a Nazi. My last comment was sarcastic as it was starting to get to me. Since you didn't resort to name-calling, I apologize.

I agree with your support and nurture comment. But just because a parent watches a show with his kid doesn't necessarily mean that the show is one a kid should be watching. What you're saying is that any show could be considered family programming if one or both parents are watching the show with the kid. If this is the case then we don't need the rating system at all, and the MA rating in particular is meaningless.

I already addressed this above. Another good point someone else made is that the parents may just be intimidated or lazy, or they just don't want their kids mad at them. It's not easy to be strict.

[snipping my sarcasm]

I was being sarcastic, or illustrating absurdity by being absurd. I was a bit ticked off at the Nazi comments. Plus I don't like the "they're just going to do it anyway" excuse. Guess sarcasm just doesn't come across well on the Internet.

I wasn't crying bloody murder, I was being sarcastic. And I still can't consider SP family programming, even if mom and dad watch along with the kids. But I do think if the kid is eighteen then he's old enough to watch it. Seventeen, maybe.

You know, it's interesting that you bring this up. When I was in school, I never heard a student swearing in class or in the hallways -- it just wasn't permitted. As a matter of fact I was in the 8th grade (14) when a nasty girl came up to me and talked about masturbation. I didn't know what she was talking about & had no idea what it was. And the year was: 1978.

So I don't know where people get this idea that kids have always been familiar with cuss words from the 2nd grade on, that they've always known about oral sex and all the rest from age 8, and that it's always been this way so we should just accept it.

Well, my mom explained it to me. Even if kids hear about it at school they're better off going to their parents for (hopefully) reasons about why it's a special act and why they should wait until they meet somebody special. At school it's just going to be crude references to the physical act.

As I mentioned before, it wasn't always this way.

Wow you really did take that way too seriously. Next time I'm being sarcastic I'll be sure to mention it.

Yes, it's ultimately up to the parents, but again what you're saying here is there is no such thing as inappropriate programming for kids as long as their parents are watching it with them. And I just can't agree with that.

Pam V.K.

JediPam Von Krosigk

Pam Von Krosigk wrote in message ...

THERE

where

No problem, I may not agree with many opinions on this usenet, but I would never resort to name calling because of them. Well unless someone else starts it, but thats another story... ;-)

up

That's not what I was trying to say. I was reffereing to South Park in particular, not any and all shows on TV. I would never even think that its ok for a kid to watch, say, the Play boy channel EVEN if the parent was present or approved of it, that is just plain wrong. You generalized my comments when I was only reffering to South Park specifically and in particular. Like not all children are the same even if they are the same age, not all shows are the same either even if they have the same rating stamp. You have to make an individual judgement for every show and not just say, all TV-MA shows are unsuitable just because of the category they are said to fall into. It all boils down to a matter of opinion I guess, and thats ok.

their

show

Well I don't agree with that. My parents where in no way intimidated by me or lazy when it came to enforsing their rules, and I can assure you they did not care less if I became mad at them for it. I didn't get to see many R rated movies when I was a kid, but that doesn't mean I didn't get to see ANY either. They would decide on a movie by movie basis if I was going to be allowed to go watch it WITH THEM. The original Terminator movie comes to mind, very violent for its day, but my parents took me with them to see it anyway, why? Well instead of just saying "Well its rated R and therefore you cannot go," they realized that the rating was given to it only for its "make beleive" violece, and they concluded that I was mature enough to handle it. I was 8 years old at the time and just for the record, I never had any nightmares or child hood traumas because of it. In fact it became one of my favorite child hood movies right up there with Star Wars. Now by this example, does this mean that my parents had no parenting skills whatsoever? Every kid is different, another 8 year old might have pissed his pants and needed therapy because of it, but I certainly did not. Again I say, parents must decide for their own particular child.

Yea, being called a Nazi would have had me venting fumes aswell. And I agree with you when you say that the excuse "they're just gonna do it anywayz" is not a very good example of good parenting. And if the parent decides that SP is deffinetly not for his child then so be it, it's their call and have an obligation to enforce it as they see fit.

murder

That is your opinion and I respect it. Personally I think that most teens are mature enough to understand this show and much of its humor. But I really don't want to get into the "what's the appropriate age for this show" because it will vary from kid to kid and their parents (yes I've said this a million times I know) must decide. And I'm not a parent yet.

to

Well I never said that Elementary school kids know much or anything about sex, I was reffering to the cussing and cursing aspect that IS present during that period. In my case, by Jr. High, I had allready been exposed (be it good or bad) to many sexual subjects and Ideas. That is just a fact of life, but I did't grow up being a deviant or anything like that, I just kept a level head and never felt forced to imitate my peers whenever they acted in a way I did not feel was right. I have never done drugs and have never been arrested, and I plan to keep it that way now that I'm 21 and in college. I know its not always been this way, but I think that the family unit should adapt to the ever changing society we live in, and not dwell in "how things once where" and not to blindly accept how things are either. They have to guide their kids through today's modern society and be there for them when they need it the most

I wholeheartedly agree.

runs

Well It just seemed that you where comparing the show too harshly against stuff that I did not feel had anything in common with it. I'm sorry If my responce to that came in a bit strong.

Allready covered this above, that I wans't talking about all TV shows, but only South Park in particular.

Sorry for another long rant on my part, but I just felt I had to clarify what I was trying to say on my previous post. Well I'll get of my box again, man my fingers are tired. Have a good one.

Mr BeanJedi

you can call me a Nazi or anything you want but dont ever EVER call me SHIRLY :)

hey let them say anything they want after all its not true is it. Is it?

god knows if what they called me were true Id be in jail or in a institution or lack the capacity to respond to this message

Jedi wrote:

[email] (Pam Von Krosigk) wrote:

wow... you had never heard of masturbation and had no idea what it was at age fourteen?! sounds like your mom did a bang-up job of explaining things to you.

aileen ([email])
AnnRKist1asw

This is for Pam(who sounds a lot like Kyle's mom),

There is a simple solution to your dilemma: If you don't agree with the content of Southpark, DON'T LET YOUR CHILDREN WATCH IT. Don't rely on the government to tell you what your children can or can not watch- when's the last time your child went crying to Newt Gingrich with a scraped knee?

AnnRKist1

Have you bothered to read this thread *at ALL*??? I strongly suggest you find out what DejaNews is and use it before you come barging into a discussion which you clearly know nothing about.

Pam V.K.

umm anyone noticethat her? name ins annrkist? anarchy? no anarcist belives in god yet this one spouts religious dogma as is they were a animal control officer

Pam Von Krosigk wrote:

Just for the record, since any parent who doesn't agree with you is weak and lazy, exactly what age should children stop being children and start being young adults? At exactly what age are they allowed to make some choices in their own entertainment? Twenty? Thirty? Or maybe take the easy way out and agree with the government: eighteen. Well, that's not entirely acurate, now is it? Because so many eighteen-year-olds believed it was unfair that they were legally adults and not allowed to drink by law until age twenty-one, most state governments amended the legal age of adulthood to twenty-one, rather than lower the drinking age.

Anyone else think that twenty is pretty old to still be considered a child?

But who says that when you're twenty, you're mature. Or twenty-one, or even thirty. I know a handful of immature men banking towards forty, and it wasn't television that made them that way, ladies and gentlemen. There is absolutely nothing in this society that we will ever be mature enough to accept because we are all individuals and respond differently. Some children at age twelve discuss world politics and know more than their parents(although their parents, no doubt, still think knowing more in some areas means they know everything); some kids at thirteen have already lost their virginity and learned everything they know about sex and relationships from their parents. I knew a girl whose mother gave her stacks of PlayGirl magazine at an early age and whose family, mother, father, and the two daughters used to all go swimming naked together; innocent, maybe, but I neglected to mention that this girl had been performing sexual acts since sixth grade. Her parents were not weak and lazy, they were bad parents, but they weren't weak and lazy.

A bad parent is one who doesn't know the maturity or the intelligence level of their own child. Twelve-year-olds are not by any means mature on the average. But they are intelligent, and it's at this crucial stage in development that they need more information, not less. Personally, I think they should be reading books instead of watching television, but society is what we'd made of it, and television is not going away.

Yes, this is my "since television isn't going away, let's not burn all of the TV sets down" philosophy, similar to my "Kids are going to do whatever they want, so why not either help them--not to be confused with force them--make the correct decisions, or help them learn from their mistakes. There's a man I know who's in his fifties now. When he was in school and still living with his parents, he went to a party one night and got so drunk he was throwing up everywhere and couldn't get to his room under his own power. His mother wanted to help him, but his father wouldn't allow it. He left him there to sleep on the floor in his own vomit. The next day, there were no lectures, but this acquaintance of mine had to clean up the mess he'd made, and subsequently, he never drank again.

I consider that good parenting in spite of what anyone else might think, and I'm sure that it was a hell of a lot more controversial than letting a 12-year-old boy watch South Park. Maybe there are things kids shouldn't know, but the fact is that they're going to have to do a better job by their kids than we do by ours, and if we start censoring the real world from them, they are going to grow up to be as ignorant as us, maybe worse.

South Park is a show. Adults watch it. Children watch it. These are facts that we can't get around, maybe because parents are too weak to watch after their kids, maybe because kids are too weak to watch after their parents--whatever. Facts are facts and opinions are opinions.

Here are my South Park opinions:

The show is for audiences mature and intelligent enough to understand all of its nuances and to not be offended by them, that goes for adults as well as their children. If a random adult turns it on and turns it off because the phrase, "Shut up, ass-master!" is offensive to them, then they have made the right decision. South Park is not for those with thin skin or narrow minds. Those that do not understand should not watch the show. But young adult(12+) are far more tolerant to filthy language and different ideas because they don't have the benefit/curse of years of experience weighing them down, so whether they understand it or not, they may not turn it off. Good parents who have a relationship with their kids know the boundaries of their understanding. If they know that their kids are laughing at the fart jokes and missing the show's redeeming social commentary, they should take command and turn it off. But if the parent knows their kid understands the more obscure sexual references already and the social jokes that point out truthes all too real, and they want to turn it off because they think somehow that will erase the knowledge from their son or daughter's mind, the only thing that parent should do is to see a therapist because their reality is impaired.

If a child already has the information and the understanding, it's up to the parent to make sure they use it correctly. If the child has the information but not the understanding, it's up to the parent to make sure they understand.

If the parent has the information and the child has the understanding, it's up to the parent to keep their ignorance out of their child's education.

Sincerely,

Christopher S. Carrig

Chris, I did not say that. You are reading your own feelings into this.

[snipping very long rant] I'll tell you what: when South Park starts airing on The Family Channel or The Disney Channel I'll take back what I said and agree that kids should be allowed to watch it. Until then my opinion remains unchanged.

Sincerely,

Pam V.K.

At this juncture, I would like to close with a sophisticated comment once uttered by a co-worker of mine named Jimmy.

"Well, opinions is like assholes. Everybody's got one."

Thank you, and good night.

Generally, I don't correct the grammar of a direct quote, since leaving it as it is would be considered correct, but if you want to change the time-honored traditions of our language...

= )
Bean11774 wrote in article ... > are... are like assholes >

cute, funny, yeah... but now we can use that great saying using proper english and sound smart and witty... i did everyone a favor.

;)
doh!

Oh, you know his friend too?

If I could drop dead right now, I'd be the happiest man alive. - Samuel Goldwyn

Thank you for proving my point for me about how today's society has declined. I bet your parents are very proud of you and your attitude problem.

Pam V.K.

I wasn't attacking you or your views. Although I was surprised when you implied that you had called your teacher a bitch, or that you would if she was one. I hope you really didn't do that. I know there are some bad teachers out there, but they still deserve your respect.

It kind of works the same way in the working world -- I've worked for many bosses, some good, some bad. Some complete asses, too. But openly cussing out your boss only makes *you* look bad -- corporate America is not real big on obscenities. That's why it works against you if you accidentally get in the habit of swearing.

Thanks.

Ok. Glad to see you weren't getting upset. With the Internet, it's hard to tell.

You seem pretty mature for your age. You know, I think the entire problem here revolves around the word "mature". I think a more appropriate word would've been "adult" -- for adult audiences only. That would be a lot clearer and wouldn't tick off all the kids like yourself who're going to say "Hey! I'm mature!" Because some will be, but most won't be. Hell, I even know some *adults* who aren't mature enough to handle SP! So I think the problem is with the terminology here.

[about the TV rules I had to follow as a teenager]

I guess these days it isn't. I was trying to say that all teenagers have to follow rules & they all hate it, but that's just not true today.

Oh heck, yeah. And even if they're not on video they're being rerun to death (if the series was popular). I grew up watching "Charlie's Angels", "The Incredible Hulk", "Star Trek", "Gilligan's Island", "Welcome Back, Kotter" and the like. All that stuff is being rerun to death on Nick at Nite, The Sci Fi channel, WTBS, etc. It will probably be the same with SP, Beavis & Butthead, Hank Hill and The Simpsons. I'd put my money on The Cartoon Network for future reruns.

Ok, that's her call. Better make sure you don't let some of the wrong words slip at the dinner table. <g>

Pam V.K.

____________________________________________________________

Not all bad teachers deserve respect..... I had one that locked me in a room whenever I cried because these boys were punching me. She never cared WHY I was upset, she just knew it gave her a headache. I never called her a bitch then, but I would now.

Until I stopped crying.
                            \/\/\/
------------------------()()()oo()()()-----------
                              U
SnowCalico-Leader of Rights For Kenny
visit our homepage http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/1278
E-mail for info