too timely....

You're not a commie. You just don't have a problem with living in a police state. As long as you remain the kind of person the State wants you to be, you'll probably never get your own door kicked in, and might even go far in this brave new world.

which police state were your referring to? Cuba or the US?

The U.S. of course!

You, OTOH, would prefer a country where, if someone was holding your kid without the slightest right to do so -- the technical name for that is "kidnapping" -- and they just kept the door locked and surrounded the house with hundreds of fanatics, there would be nothing the gov't could do.

kincaid

Oooh, good point! This whole thing is a toughy, it's just that stormtroopers scare the hell out of me when they're stormtrooping nonviolent people in their own homes.

Bonnie

You should call the INS agents. Using political emotionally charged euphemisms like "stormtroopers" rarely helps.

They were operating under the impression that not only were the people in the house armed, but that they were being tipped off moments before the extraction began.

They were also operating under the truism that overwhelming force generally results in fewer casualties. They got in and out in three minutes and nobody was hurt. It was a *perfect* operation. Reno deserves the credit.

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Perfect? As in perfect picture of fed grunt pointing assault rifle inches from Elian's face? Please explain why that was necessary.

Absolutely.

You're not falling for the Cuban exile/Republican spin machine, are you?

I'm sure you looked at the picture, but did you really *see* the picture? You know, the one where the INS agent's finger is not on trigger, where the safety is engaged on rifle, where the rifle is pointing *away* from Elian's face?

Did you see how quickly Donato handed over the child? It took about one second. A show of force that impressive generally has the effect of freezing the guilty parties like deer in headlights. You wave a big gun at someone, he usually does precisely as you ask.

That's why it was necessary. And that's why it only took this INS team 3 minutes to get in, rescue the boy from his kidnappers, and get out without any undue casualties. (The idiots in the front yard are a whole other matter) Once more, a perfectly executed operation.

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Your reply addresses exactly the concerns I had. Do you think Elian realized that the safety was engaged? Did you see the trauma on his face? Yeah, he looked happy sometime afterward, but what do you think a 6-year old mind will get out of this? "If you really want some- thing, use overwhelming force, preferably a big gun." That doesn't mean that he's going to get a gun tomorrow and terrorize other little kids, but it teaches him that force is the answer.

The idiots on the front lawn of which you speak -- how did Reno know they wouldn't have rioted or ramped up the violence? Reno threw the dice and things worked out. She easily could have incited more violence. It's easy to look back and say things went "perfectly," but the reality is that Reno gambled with human lives, something she has shown little concern for in the past.

I am not falling for any "spin machine" -- these are my own opinions. I am not a Republican. You have shown plenty of spin in your reply, referring to "guilty" parties and "kidnappers."

What would have been a less dramatic but I believe equally successful method of extracting Elian? Cut off all utilities including water to the house. Detain any family members leaving the house for supplies under the pretense that they are obstructing justice by holding Elian. Note that I wrote "detain" and "pretense" as opposed to "arrest," "guilty," and "kidnappers."

I don't think it mattered.

Yeah, he was frightened for a moment. So?

I suspect he's already pretty much forgotten about it.

And he's going to take this newfound knowledge back to Cuba, where they *never* use guns or force.

Then why have the congressional hearings into the appropriateness of the force used to extricate the child been "indefinitely postponed"? Because once the hotheaded Republicans realized they were wrong, going through with the hearings would have been a collosal mistake.

Well then, let's just say your opinions fall in direct line with what the Rep. spin doctors are trying to distort this incident into. I made an innocent mistake.

"Great Uncle" Lazaro did indeed violate Florida's kidnapping statutes. In calling him a kidnapper, I'm merely being more thorough than those who would refer to him simply as "the uncle".

As for "guilty", that will surely come later. Once Elian and his family are back home in Cuba, the real fun will begin. Lazaro Gonzalez *will* do prison time for this.

In other words, you would arrest each person without probable cause as they left the house? And you thought Reno had a lot to explain *now*??

Sorry. Semantics is not the issue here. Doesn't matter what word you use, in the example above your use of "detain" to replace "attest" doesn't change the meaning one iota. And again, I stand behind my categorizing Lazaro as a kidnapper.

Section 787.01(1)(a)(4) states that a person is liable for kidnapping if he "forcibly... confines, abducts, or imprisons another person against her or his will and without lawful authority, with intent to... interfere with the performance of any governmental or political function."

Section 787.01(1)(b) states that a person is considered to be confined "against his or her will" if that person is below the age of 13, and the confinement is "without the consent of her or his parent or legal guardian."

Now you tell me, according to the laws cited, is Lazaro Gonzalez a kidnapper? If you say no, reread the statutes. if you still say no, you either have a reading comprehension problem, or a problem admitting when you're wrong. One or the other.

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On Mon, 01 May 2000 14:28:14 -0400, Dave wrote:

And probably more frightened for the days that he was sitting on a raft with his mother, wondering if he'd ever make it to land... and even more frightened when he was so weak that he kept slipping below the water, but dolphins helped to keep him afloat.

Boy, I hope MY mom decides to flee our country to be with some boyfriend and drag me along so we can face sharks, drowning, sun poisoning, and dehydration.

We are in agreeance <sp?> Dave... I'm with you all the way on the ALIEN Gonzalez rediculousness.

5:1 that Playboy or Hustler has Elian's cousin posing nude within the next three months... and that the janitor/fisherman commits suicide when he suddenly finds himself out of the spotlight with no one giving a shit about him any more.

----- Lone Wolf And so ends another episode of trailer park theatre.

"No ticket." - Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade/Dogma

"One thing about livin' in Santa Carla I never could stomach - all the damn vampires." - The Lost Boys

It's funny. All these clueless people talking about how she must have loved him soooo much that she was willing to risk his life to bring him to the US. I don't suppose she realized the percentage of Cuban rafters who die at sea compared to the few who actually make it. She placed her own child in almost certain eminent danger, and only a stroke of amazing fortune kept him alive. For that act alone, her wishes should mean zip in this case.

Not just her boyfriend, her *smuggler* boyfriend. He had collected the life savings of each person in that boat.

Well, I would have used "agreement" but the sentiment is the same. Funny, lately we tend to agree more than not. What is this world coming to?

Well, she may be a mental case, but she is a cutie. When she's not bawling her eyes out, that is.

He's such a shithead. My brother works at Broward Community College with one of Donato's cousins. He told me that first off, Donato doesn't give a shit about children, never has, he's just looking to get into Maryuseless' pants so he pretended to care about the kid. Second, he's no fisherman, that was only his 2nd or 3rd time on a boat, he really cleans peoples' houses for a living. Third, the rest of his family hates him. He's the total black sheep, was even before this mess. Fourth, he's just looking to be an advisor for the upcoming TV movie so he can make a few bucks without having to find honest work.

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On Tue, 02 May 2000 08:44:54 -0400, Dave wrote:

News to me... and all the more reason for the little bastard to be with his old man.

I'm freaked out... quick... say something offensive so I can get pissed off at you!

Actually, I have yet to see a picture of her (I have been consciously avoiding virtually all news about the little punk) but I keep hearing people say she's really hot.

They talked about him on Stern yesterday... apparently the guy has publicly stated several times that he loves the attention and doesn't want it to end.

----- Lone Wolf And so ends another episode of trailer park theatre.

"No ticket." - Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade/Dogma

"One thing about livin' in Santa Carla I never could stomach - all the damn vampires." - The Lost Boys

I thought it "mattered" (you brought up the safety) because for all Elian knew, there was a big-ass gun pointed at him. I'm sure he thought it was loaded.

Perhaps no big deal to you, but it's a very disturbing picture to many. It will be immortalized along with other famous pictures, such as the one from the civil rights era a few decades ago of a man using the US flag as a weapon.

No comment.

Relevance?

Proof? Anyway, I don't pretend to know why. I can *guess* that someone did a public opinion poll and found out that anybody spearheading anything that will prolong this story in the media will lose points (since most people are sick of hearing about Elian and their #1 priority is to get him out of the news).

You are jumping to conclusions. In calling him a kidnapper, you are denying him due process. As implied earlier, what will happen will be affected just as much by polls (that may be answered with other priorities in mind) than anything else. Perhaps charges will never be filed because the Justice Dept. will realize that they got what they wanted and people don't want to hear about the damn issue anymore.

Probable cause: obstruction of justice for not handing over Elian.

and

Fine, arrest. I used "detain" as a shortcut of saying "arrest now, release later without filing charges."

First, let's get this out of the way: I believe that Elian belongs with his father in Cuba. I believe that, by literal reading of the statutes, he was "kidnapped." However, lots of laws and rules read simply. That doesn't mean that once a case hits the courts (if it ever does) that its interpretation will mesh exactly with the written law. These things are bent around in courts all the time. I will not call anyone a kidnapper until they are *convicted* of kidnapping, regardless of statutes. It is not my place to judge.

Examples -- yes, trivial, but they came to mind first -- of written rules that are never followed are the strike zone in baseball and traveling in basketball. The strike zone is explicitly defined in the rulebook as being between the chest area near the letters and the knees. However, any baseball fan will tell you that the strikezone as used today (in direct violation of the the rulebook) is between the waist and knees. I also believe that traveling in baseketball occurs on 95% of dunks, but is never called.

In the THREE SECONDS that it took for the agent to bust in, evaluate the situation and force Donato to hand over the child, I highly doubt that Elian thought much of anything during that brief a period of time.

Many who have no idea what really happened *other than* what they saw in that picture, sure.

What picture?

I equate what Elian went through as an experience very similar to seeing a scary movie. He was a little scared, might even have had a bad dream the first night, but human beings are amazingly resilient creatures, and I doubt this incident will cause the lifelong emotional scars that fools like Connie Mack would dupe us into believing it would.

Guns and force are a part of life in Cuba. What would this single three minute incident burn into his head that wouldn't already have been there?

I don't think so. In fact, it's in the Republican politicians' best interests to keep this story going. All the better to attack and weaken the Democrats they've repeatedly blamed this on. You listening, Mr. Hatch? Howbout you Mr. Mack? And you Mr. DeLay?

Me, I like to think the decision to cancel the hearings had more to do with the litany of expert witnesses who would have testified as to the appropriateness of the force used in the rescue; People like Border Patrol Tactical Unit (BORTAC) commanders, and former DEA and SWAT team leaders, not to mention dozens of experts on police tactics. And every one of them would say essentially the same thing; Elian's rescue was a perfect textbook example of how to extract an individual from a potentially hostile environment, and the general public doesn't have to understand this for it to be true.

This is an interesting generalization.

Until and unless further evidence presents itself, I will continue to consider Lazaro a kidnapper, as (spin doctoring aside) what he did falls squarely within the state statute definition of kidnapping.

This would be truly criminal.

"Good news, Mr. Manson. We did some polling, and it seems not enough people think what you did was wrong enough, so we can't keep you in prison. You're free to leave."

Your way, they'd still be waiting outside the house. The way they did it, Juan Miguel and Elian have already had a full week of father-son bonding time.

Instead, they found a way to do it without arresting or detaining anybody.

Except the protestors who basically stepped up and asked to be arrested, they don't count.

I fully believe both of these statements as well.

It's all of our places to judge. If you choose not to, that is your prerogative.

Trivial, yes. You can't compare sports rules with legal statutes.

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from

Are you joking that the picture I mentioned is not immortal because you can't remember it or are you sincerely asking since you are not aware of it?

I was not aware that guns are force are a part of life in Cuba. By this I am not referring to the Cuban government, but the public at large. I was under the impression that the public could not buy guns. I brought up this aspect orginally because I was picturing a little boy growing up and using force to get what he wanted from his peers -- not with guns per se.

If the Republicans think it's in their best interest to prolong the issue, they haven't done their homework. Most of the U.S. is sick of hearing about this issue.

That's assuming that it can be proved that those testimonies would apply to extracting a little boy from the environment of family members. If it ever made it that far, defense attorneys would undoubtedly argue (perhaps on appeal) that those testimonies were about situations unlike the one being argued. And, members of the general public would make up the jury, would they not? Or would this case be decided solely by judges?

the

How so? Do you deny that 3 out of 4 people (at least) are sick of hearing about Elian?

than

Dept.

In your opinion. The truth is, you don't know what's going to happen. No one in the public does, and I doubt that the Justice Dept. has made up their minds completely.

Good point. Except that if you polled about Manson, he wouldn't be free to leave. And, Manson is already convicted. I never suggested that polls were taken to decide who would be set free, but polls will undoubtedly be taken in the consideration of who will be tried in the first place for such a public case in which most people don't give a damn about now that they feel it's finally out of their faces 24/7.

Drinking the case of Coke and toilet water in the dark? Or did they stock up? (I don't know if they did. Perhaps you do.)

interpretation

Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote. It is not my place to judge and it is not your place to judge either. By judge I mean officially decide someone's outcome. You simply don't have the authority. Now, if you want to make a personal opinion about something you think should happen, of course that is your right. Go ahead and call whomever you want a kidnapper -- it really doesn't matter what you think, nor does it really matter what I think. The guy is not a kidnapper until he is convicted. That's the way this country's courts work and we really should be glad this is the case.

To use your style of reasoning: Yes, I can. I just did. More seriously, there are plenty of legal statutes that are not strictly enforced. Interstate speed limits may be marked as 65MPH, but in reality, it's more like 80-85MPH. Hardly anyone stops at a stop sign completely and before the stop line. Betting pools are illegal, but millions participate every year, especially during March Madness. For more serious crimes, extenuating circumstances are often considered. My point isn't that Uncle what's-his-face won't be convicted of kidnapping, but that it is naive to state with 100% certainty that he will be based on legal statutes, no matter how explicit. There are always exceptions no matter how illogical and I wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be one of them.

Sincerely asking. I'm not familiar with this picture, but if it is immortal you should be able to post a link. (If it's not on the Internet, it can't exist. :) )

Ok, the general public in Cuba is most definitely not allowed to own guns. Citizens (non government or military) can actually be shot for owning a handgun in Cuba. But guns still play an important and prominent role in their lives. Even the smallest villages in Cuba have contant military presence, and neighbors who are sympathetic to Castro's cause. (ie. They rat out their neighbors in exchange for preferencial treatment from the gov't. ) I guess the point I'm trying to make is having a gun drawn on you is a relatively common occurrence in Cuba. And the average Cuban soldier has an itchier trigger finger than the average INS agent, IYKWIM. Elian was technically a lot safer in front of that INS agent in Miami than an average Cuban citizen would be in front of the Cuban equivalent of an INS agent.

I don't think so. I think that there are plenty of people who are fed up and tired of it, but there are plenty who still want to hear more. If not, it wouldn't still be news. And it's still news at least as far as the networks are concerned.

I want to respond to the rest of this post, but it's nearing 4:30PM EDT, and I've got to leave work in about 5 minutes. If I can find the time this evening, I'll connect from home and pick it up from here.

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Sincerely asking. I'm not familiar with this picture, but if it is immortal you should be able to post a link. (If it's not on the Internet, it can't exist. :) )

Ok, the general public in Cuba is most definitely not allowed to own guns. Citizens (non government or military) can actually be shot for owning a handgun in Cuba. But guns still play an important and prominent role in their lives. Even the smallest villages in Cuba have contant military presence, and neighbors who are sympathetic to Castro's cause. (ie. They rat out their neighbors in exchange for preferencial treatment from the gov't. ) I guess the point I'm trying to make is having a gun drawn on you is a relatively common occurrence in Cuba. And the average Cuban soldier has an itchier trigger finger than the average INS agent, IYKWIM. Elian was technically a lot safer in front of that INS agent in Miami than an average Cuban citizen would be in front of the Cuban equivalent of an INS agent.

I don't think so. I think that there are plenty of people who are fed up and tired of it, but there are plenty who still want to hear more. If not, it wouldn't still be news. And it's still news at least as far as the networks are concerned.

But the opposition would explain that ther INS did not know what the situation would be like beforehand, and all evidence collected to that point indicated the strong possibility of a confrontation.

Here's an excerpt from a Miami Herald article written last week:

"On a sunny April morning in 1986 in South Dade, FBI agents armed with 9mm handguns and 14 rounds each met up with what they thought were run-of-the-mill bank robbers in a stolen car.

They were not expecting to face two .357 handguns and a Ruger Mini-14 assault rifle with a banana clip filled with wall-piercing .223 caliber rounds. Five minutes and 131 shots later, the bloodiest FBI shooting in history was over: two agents and two suspects dead, five other agents wounded just south of the Suniland shopping center in Pinecrest.

That is the kind of tragedy that frames the way law enforcement officials think."

I don't know. I'll ask around.

Since you put it in such direct terms, yes. I deny that a full 75% of the US population (well, that part of the population that had an interst in the case to begin with) is sick of hearing about Elian.

Well, it's not really something I *can* deny actually, let me just say I don't believe it. I mean, the OJ ordeal lasted much longer than I ever expected, and the level of interest in the case didn't fade away.

Still hasn't. Years after the trial, you could still start up a lengthy troll thread in just about any newsgroup by posting an opinion on the OJ issue.

And I still don't think the "general public" has sated its appetite for this story.

They had to have been somewhat prepared for the eventuality of the home invasion. Their first reaction when the INS came knocking was to push a couch up against the inside of the front door and for someone to grab the boy and hide in a closet in a back room. There was also a plan to pass the boy out the back window to sympathizers occupying the house behind the Gonzalez's if a raid should occur, but they were caught by surprise buy the early hour of the raid so they were unable to enact this part of the plan.

But they did have time to blockade to door. Or try to anyway.

Fair enough, and you were right. I misunderstood your usage of "judge".

These examples all support the fact that there are simply not enough law enforcement officers to strictly enforce every law every time. As a result, less serious infractions are often ignored.

That's why I, and many many others, eagerly anticipate this story continuing to unfold. We've *got* to comprise more than 25% of the population.

My prediction right now is that if the Justice Department *does* decide to try Lazaro for kidnapping, then he *will* be found guilty and sentenced accordingly. But that's just me.

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Sincerely asking. I'm not familiar with this picture, but if it is immortal you should be able to post a link. (If it's not on the Internet, it can't exist. :) )

Ok, the general public in Cuba is most definitely not allowed to own guns. Citizens (non government or military) can actually be shot for owning a handgun in Cuba. But guns still play an important and prominent role in their lives. Even the smallest villages in Cuba have contant military presence, and neighbors who are sympathetic to Castro's cause. (ie. They rat out their neighbors in exchange for preferencial treatment from the gov't. ) I guess the point I'm trying to make is having a gun drawn on you is a relatively common occurrence in Cuba. And the average Cuban soldier has an itchier trigger finger than the average INS agent, IYKWIM. Elian was technically a lot safer in front of that INS agent in Miami than an average Cuban citizen would be in front of the Cuban equivalent of an INS agent.

I don't think so. I think that there are plenty of people who are fed up and tired of it, but there are plenty who still want to hear more. If not, it wouldn't still be news. And it's still news at least as far as the networks are concerned.

But the opposition would explain that ther INS did not know what the situation would be like beforehand, and all evidence collected to that point indicated the strong possibility of a confrontation.

Here's an excerpt from a Miami Herald article written last week:

"On a sunny April morning in 1986 in South Dade, FBI agents armed with 9mm handguns and 14 rounds each met up with what they thought were run-of-the-mill bank robbers in a stolen car.

They were not expecting to face two .357 handguns and a Ruger Mini-14 assault rifle with a banana clip filled with wall-piercing .223 caliber rounds. Five minutes and 131 shots later, the bloodiest FBI shooting in history was over: two agents and two suspects dead, five other agents wounded just south of the Suniland shopping center in Pinecrest.

That is the kind of tragedy that frames the way law enforcement officials think."

I don't know. I'll ask around.

Since you put it in such direct terms, yes. I deny that a full 75% of the US population (well, that part of the population that had an interst in the case to begin with) is sick of hearing about Elian.

Well, it's not really something I *can* deny actually, let me just say I don't believe it. I mean, the OJ ordeal lasted much longer than I ever expected, and the level of interest in the case didn't fade away.

Still hasn't. Years after the trial, you could still start up a lengthy troll thread in just about any newsgroup by posting an opinion on the OJ issue.

And I still don't think the "general public" has sated its appetite for this story.

They had to have been somewhat prepared for the eventuality of the home invasion. Their first reaction when the INS came knocking was to push a couch up against the inside of the front door and for someone to grab the boy and hide in a closet in a back room. There was also a plan to pass the boy out the back window to sympathizers occupying the house behind the Gonzalez's if a raid should occur, but they were caught by surprise buy the early hour of the raid so they were unable to enact this part of the plan.

But they did have time to blockade to door. Or try to anyway.

Fair enough, and you were right. I misunderstood your usage of "judge".

These examples all support the fact that there are simply not enough law enforcement officers to strictly enforce every law every time. As a result, less serious infractions are often ignored.

That's why I, and many many others, eagerly anticipate this story continuing to unfold. We've *got* to comprise more than 25% of the population.

My prediction right now is that if the Justice Department *does* decide to try Lazaro for kidnapping, then he *will* be found guilty and sentenced accordingly. But that's just me.

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