So. Return to almost 1000 posts and then I find out that what I had JOKED about with Dain did actually happen...
Martin... I assume you want off the Pledge list. Kim (Zoe) Do You?? Dave (Ratboy) You know initially we had a differing of opinion, but I noticed you waited until I announced I would be gone for a few weeks before you jump in at every given opportunity to 'rubbish' the pledge.
Remember, when you rubbish it you are also insulting everyone who signed it. Trying to belittle them will thus demean their confidence in themselves and their conviction.
The Pledge was fucking working dammit... And as soon as cracks appear in the resolution of the posters or the influx of new people, the trolls are responded to and you feel this is a wonderful thing...
Equating the Pledge with Communism? Get a life Dave... A high level troll you may be, I'm certainly beginning too think so... Which is a shame, because you seemed rather intelligent before. Your The Pledge Ain't Working thread was just sensation seeking beyond words.
Toni/Davester/ LordG/ others , thanks for the support...
(Oh NO! LordG isn't a pledger... Am I not being elitist enough!!!)
So, there y'go. Joe goes of to be with the love of his life and this is what happens...
Oh well.... Such is life. Looks like I'm gonna be directing my comments to a very few people now huh? (Oooohhh Elitism!!!!! But let me ask this... What is so great about ME that being on my list of 'people I will talk to' is so special and Elite ????
Hmmmm........
As far as Canada went... I'll get down to that later if anyone is interested. I'm too mad right now...
For those who are interested and those who I call friends... Good to see you all.... I'm fairly glad to be back.
As the last cliffhanging episode of alt.tv.southpark came to an end, "Covenant" wrote:
You forgot to clue me in dude.
And it great to have you back Covenant!
BitchMom WebMistress of Billzhouse.com Founder of #alt.tv.southpark ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ For all your SouthPark needs visit http://www.billzhouse.com ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Visit #alt.tv.southpark on Dalnet Point your java enabled browser to: http://www.members.tripod.com/TheSilverRaven/sp_chat.htm Or connect with mIRC or pIRCh, choose IRC Network Dalnet When you get connected, type in /join #alt.tv.southpark *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* remove MY to email me
I'm gonna stick with the pledge for right now. It can't possibly hurt anything anyway. Just don't try to put us on a guilt trip, Cov. You haven't been here, it's been hell.
Kim, like I said, i came back and read every single post (895 of them) and it isn't a case of a guilt trip. It just really deteriorated. I'm NOT blaming you. I WAS however surprised to see your comments Pledge-wise. (Very surprised!)
and yes, it looks bad. But like i've always said ignore 'em, killfile 'em, just don't reply, or they WIN !
(and we don't want that do we!)
cheers sweetie!!! Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
No it won't. You think we didn't respond to trolls because of the pledge? We grew tired of them and learned to dismiss them. The pledge was simply a catalyst; if it never existed, then we would have found something else to rally around -- a short essay on why we shouldn't, or something like that.
No, the pledge was not working whatsoever. We weren't responding to trolls, but all sorts of lurkers were. You think trolls care who responds?
The trolls were going at us as hard as they could because the pledge existed in the first place; not because they picked the ng randomly. It was akin to a bullseye on our collective forehead.
Not wonderful. Not terrible. Trolls can be ignored. You may not like it, but they have a right to troll. This is Usenet, after all.
That was an offhand joke... and not one of his, I might add.
That's one step away from "You're a Poopy Stupid Head!!1!!11!" Mudslinging is not the way to go.
Because he disagrees with you, he's suddenly stupid?
Back up. Are you saying that if someone's not on the pledge list, you won't even talk to them?
Whoa, Martin! Sarcasm was dripping from Cov post in the above quote! I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that. Especially, if memory serves, he stated early in the same post he would reply to anyone in the NG, except trolls (and apparently those who respond to the trolls, though this last part could also be a bit of sarcasm on Cov's part).
Thanks Dain. I actually forgot to put that in the post just b4 this one! It IS a violation of virtually all ISP's
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What
so
Yep. *I* thought it was obvious too.......
(Mind you... that said.... If I *did* decide to do that, then using Martin's logic, wouldn't that be *MY* right? And if I *did* what is his problem with that? Y****** can curse, swear, ridicule, but I can't decide who *I* post to????)
I wonder what will be made of *that* !!!
Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands And Obviously SO Much Charisma That He *IS* The Person That Everyone Wants To Talk To Them.........(Should I Add >Sarcasm<.. Naaaah! No Need To Surely!!??)
For sure. But I am not providing him with his newsgroup connection.
I just missed that, I guess. This plain-text format isn't the best for sarcasm, as it can be misinterpreted.
Yak is a resident troll, whereas you are a resident poster. Somehow I expect more from you; however, it's definitely your right to talk to whoever you want. It wasn't something we would expect you to do, but since it was sarcasm (and picked up by everyone but me, it appears) it's definitely a moot point.
Jesus Martin, you've just blown your own arguement! You say the Pledge wasn't working and then say it was a catalyst! What is a catalyst Martin... a reactive agent! Something which causes change. And the Pledge worked. The point is there WAS no 'short essay' to rally around. there was the pledge instead. If you believe a short essay would have worked then what really IS the difference? You tell me!
Again... THAT is why the Pledge remained. The new comers replied yes, as did crossposters, but if the main hard-core of the group give it up then we may as well just hand the keys over. Newcomers who want to be a productive part of the NG still sign Martin.
Bullshit! SHOW me one troll post which says that before I posted this mailing! In fact, show me we have any more than 2 trolls! The B*****r is a serial troll. Harmless but annoying. This Y**** is posting under aliases.
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Yeah. And we have a right to ignore them in anyway we feel will work The Pledge as YOU said, gave people a cause to rally round. Not a bad thing.
I'm afraid disecting a sentence so it loses context doesn't work martin. The context was NOT factual, it was presumptuous. All outcomes depending on one outcome which is, as yet, unmade.
words.
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What
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And where the fuck did I say that? Sarcasm of one's own comments is a wonderful trick. It's called tongue in cheek. I was merely making a play on Dave's comments that "the pledge is elitist" by stating... A) People who sign the pledge do NOT ignore those who don't b) What is so fucking special about ME that makes MY posts 'Elite' in the first place.
Martin, you've obviously gotten a bug up your ass about something. It seems a little odd that it appears to be something that was making the NG a nicer place to be. You defend the Y***** troll by saying his posts 'were' funny. I can only take from that that you are not coloured, or Jewish, or a member of any ethnic minority. The old phrase "I may not agree with your point of view, but I will defend with my life your right to state it" Is usually trotted out around this time in debates such as these. This doesn't mean we have to agree, or tolerate vicious racist comments that degrade the reader as much as it also degrades the poster. But, of course the poster doesn't think he *is* degrading himself does he?
You've said in previous posts that Y**** 'doesn't even vbelieve the things he is saying' (or words to that effect). How do you know this? Do you 'know' Y*****? How can youi state broadly that he IS joking? And how can anyone tell the difference anyway?
Some things are not there to be joked about. Slavery, Holocaust, Racism. Call it P.C. if you like, but streams of this shit can easily be lived without.
(I'm waiting for someone to say SP is not PC....Boy do I have a n answer ready for that. I'm tempted to pre-empt it and post now, but no...we'll see....)
Martin,You say that the trolls are only here because of the pledge, I disagree. But let me ask you this..... Do you want rid of the trolls or not? If NOT why sign it in the first place? If you DO then why defend their actions? If you dobn't caree either way, then why the vitriol? If you have friends on the NG why help to upset them?
You know Trolls exist for one thing. To cause resentment, and furore in an NG. This thread itself is probably helping their dicks to get hard. (If they have them, after all... they may be female)
So...... I'm really interested to see your reply to this Martin. I dunno why your mind has changed on this. None of the 'reraons' you have put forward have held water, you've contradicted them at every turn.
Actually, I *am* Jewish. And, that comment was misinterpreted by many. I meant it in a "laughing at" sense.
I guess I would feel differently if he was making some sort of actual argument. What Yak is doing isn't even real trolling. It is annoying and immature as hell, but doesn't really bother me.
The ng would be a better place without the trolls. However, they can be dropped into killfiles and ignored rather easily.
"The 'why the hell not?' factor", as someone said earlier.
As I don't care either way, I've stopped the vitriol. I'm only responding here because you're asking me direct questions.
You win the argument by default, then, as you're the only one who genuinely cares about the issue. Also, I just realized that my response to some other thread on this topic invoked Godwin's Law.
GODWIN'S LAW! DEAD THREAD!
It's time to move on. This argument is not doing anything good for the ng.
Covenant, I've just snipped a few hundred lines of you berating Martin because he doesn't want to be a part of your pledge anymore. You may not be elitist, but you're certainly no egalitarian.
Thank you for finally admiting I am not elitist. BTW I'm sure Martin will be thanking you foir answering for him Particularly as we have made our OWN peace....
Hmmmmmm What was that about Dictatorship?? Speaking for others???
You must be psychic!! Seriously though, there have been those rumblings, but no landslide yet.
Analogy: The pledge is nothing more than a statement of intent or philosophy, much like the doctrines of both communism and democracy (I'm talking about the *theory* of these two government systems here). They look great on paper, and in an ideal/utopian environment they will work. However, when you put them in practice, problems will ensue for the sole reason that not everyone will follow the philosophy in it's ideal form. Communism in practice didn't work, democracy in practice doesn't work (I don't want to hear anyone say anything about the US government working, it doesn't work well, and it's not a true democracy anyway). The same thing can happen with the pledge, especially with the influx of new posters we've been seeing. With the increase of folks who don't follow the philosophy (or are unaware of it) of not responding to the trolls in this NG, there will be stress placed on the philosophy, but I for one will continue to follow the path of ignoring trolls (the only exception being my response to the boinger for his reply to our resident racist troll), whether there is a pledge or not. It all boils down to whether your conviction in the philosophy put forward by the pledge is a true conviction or merely a passing interest. Nothing elitist is involved, I'm still going to respond to folks who don't follow the pledge (with the exception of the trolls). OK, 'nuff said on this.
Welcome back! Hope you had a blast! Don't let the level of trolling get to you (or the level of pledge debate), it all seems to come and go in waves, and we seem to be riding on the crest. Soooo, when's the wedding? <g>
You give yourself too much credit. I never really noticed that you were gone. I spent time in other newsgroups for a few days and came back to a whole lot of bullshit in a group where "the pledge" was supposed to help prevent just that. My disappointment drove my comments that day. The fact that you were not here to police the group never entered my mind.
Bullshit. If that's what you read into it, then you're being quite oversensitive.
So a harsh word read on Usenet is going to undermine someone's self confidence? If so, then I'd worry about how that person will survive in the real world.
Nope. I just said the "dynamics" of a newsgroup pledge, lofty as the ideal may sound, simply do not work. When I said this, I was rebuffed. Fine. I just had a feeling of smug satisfaction in knowing I was right all along, and this came out in a couple of ill-advised posts. So sue me.
Get a life? I could have said this to you on many, many occasions more fitting than this one, but I didn't because that is one of the lamest, most overused lines Usenet has ever seen so I thought better of it.
You may think what you wish. I exposed the foolishness of the pledge concept and you assume this makes me a troll. I'm sorry I stepped on your sand castle, but you must realize that the tide was going to destroy it anyway.
Now this offends me. You seem to equate intelligence with whether people agree with you or not. All of a sudden, because you don't like the words I posted, you now consider me less intelligent that you did before, when we were having lively discussions where we tended to agree with each other on everything? I suppose you thought I was reeeally intelligent when I was giving you all those ideas about how to improve your website, but now that we disagree on something, I'm no longer intelligent? You have an interesting definition of 'intelligent' and it's not the one dictionaries use either.
Sometimes you have to stop pussyfooting around. I've dropped hints that went unnoticed, and assumed an "in your face" approach was the only alternative.
I received an e-mail from Toni the other day that was whole lot more pleasant that what you've posted, and I had even agreed to ignore the trolls and lay off the pledge (ask her), then you go and post crap like this? Don't you see that you bring on the trolls yourself? Your "pledge" is nothing but a challenge to trolls, and OTHER trolls. Surely you're aware of ALT.TROLL and what goes on there. Trolls will often band together and target a newsgroup if that group considers itself above trolls, or attempts to prevent trolling by instituting a silly pledge. You're more to blame for the trolls showing up than I am for keeping them here.
keep trying. The 'a.t.s ruling class' is being overthrown as we speak.
Some might say that ignoring the posts of opinionated posters might be considered ignorance of sorts. Maybe if the newsgroup consisted of nothing but "South Park Roolz!" posts, this would be seen as an improvement.
Beats me. Maybe the same egocentrism that made you think the pledge would work in the first place gave you an inflated sense of self worth. You may feel free to remove me from this list. I consider it an extension of the pledge anyway, and I refused to be put on that list too.
Don't blame me. You've worked yourself into a lather and it's all your own doing. maybe someone could write a fanfic about what went on in this newsgroup and use it as a parable to warn others who might consider going down the same path you've travelled.
Although I agree that insulting the Pledge will not have such a deleterious effect on the self esteem on its signers, it however is still an indirect insult to them. Every snide little comment, every small sarcastic remark you make and have made about the Pledge indirectly attacks those who have decided to sign it. You may call it bullshit, but it only makes sense to me.
I don't think you're a troll.....it's just that you have a tendency to be harshly blunt when it comes to certain topics.
Thanks :)
Ya gotta understand Dave- you constantly critiqued the Pledge....of course he's going to take it personally- he did write it, after all.
Like I said in my email, at least we tried to do something about it.
You have all these reasons as to why the Pledge didn't work, Dave. Now, the question is- do you have any suggestions as to how to help decrease (note I said "decrease", not eliminate- I know there is no way to completely get rid of them) the troll population and the responses to them? Because I would really love to hear them (no sarcasm here).
Since when was there a ruling class in this NG?
Why do you consider it egocentrism in creating the Pledge? It was never meant to be exclusionary, elitist, egocentric, or any of those other "e" words (heh- I just had to inject a bit of humor in this thread). It was simply a means to unite the people on a.t.s. against the trolls. Nowhere on the Pledge does it say that those who don't sign it are stupid or foolish, or anything like that.
How is Joe's choice in talking to certain people an extension of the Pledge?
Ummmmmm........what about your "The Pledge ain't working" post? I think that may have a little something to do with Joe's extremely angry post- don't you?
Yet more taking everything at a totally personal level and misreading everything i said....
Dave wrote in message ...
before
But the FACT remains that that IS what happened... (and others have commented on it..)
it.
Why ? You DON'T think that belittling someone's ideals offends them? Seriously???
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Dave. Usenet IS the real world. We read it-- it affects us. It's as real as television, telephone and radio....Anythihg which acts on our psyche is real. And some people can and do get very upset by others opinions of themselves.
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Look, there is obviously no way we are ever gonna agree on this. You feel the pledge is pointless I think if it is adhered to it isn't end of story.
You CAN'T be condraticting yourself surely??? ;')
No. You are *assuming* that. What i was reacting to was the way you were simply rubbishing the pledge and it's pledgers with throw away puerile remarks. Like I said, we've debated in the past and were perfectly civil. I was a little dissapointed to see the way you were attacking the pledgers. (And, remember, *I* had assumed it was because I was away...Perhaps it was a little egotistical of me, but it seemed a little too 'timely' .)
Dave, why are you assuming the worst possible explanation of my supposed thoughts?? You are obviously an intelligent person. (*Nearly* as intelligent as I am ; ' P ), please don't throw these points in. I am not trying to insult you, I've got a better vocabulay to use for that!!)
But Dave, you are still in the minority. Of the original Pledgers two have uttered thoughts that it might not be a valid concept. I am of the opinion it is only undermined when it is attacked. Remeber, almost everyone says the way to kill trolls is to ignore them, so if that ignoring is organised why does it not work? If the pledge itself is ignored...
Dave, that is pure shit. Trying to blame me for the trolls is a very low blow. The B****8er was here before the pledge and Y***** is the only other guy continiually posting. Any other fledgling trolls have been ignored to death BECAUSE of the pledge. I'm sorry Dave, but your wrong on this one.
Y'see THIS is what makes me wonder about you Dave. The A.t.s. ruling class... You wanna tell me who THEY are? Or is that the elitist bunch of which you obviously think I am the head?? Didn't you get it? >Sarcasm!< Come on in!!! (Reference??)
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Sorry I don't understand what you are getting at here. If SP Roolz was all that was posted I'd be gone long ago. (Heres your chance guys!!)
But ANY post has gotta be better than the racist bull that is being spewed all over the NG right now. Surely you agree with that??
so
You REALLY do think I'm being elitist here don't you? Seriously? Dave, if that were the case I wouldn't give two fucks about trolls or racists or even YOU! I'm trying to make the NG a better place for everyone, (Or at least I thought I was, obviously you can only ever reach to please a majority) You see again wit the thinly veiled insults..... I hardly thnk the Pledge is giving me any sense of fulfillment. (Certainly not right NOW!) If you think that is why I started it then i am surprised you deem me worthy to talk to. And if you DO think that, then you have me figured all wrong Dave. And changing that opinion might just alter your viewpoint on why I make certain other posts and points.
Dave, I was mad at the amount of troll posts that appeared in my abscence. Why are YOU taking this so personally? Oh.... the path *I've* travelled?? There are currently 56 pledgers... Looks liuke it's NOT the road less travelled huh!
Again with the lists.... You're not a storeman are you Dave ? ; ' P
Dave, take a step back and TRY to view this as being from someone who wants a nice, easy going NG. Don't say it can't be done. I know a LOAD which are... Please try and look at my posts as being from someone who is concerned about the NG's health and NOT from an egocentric maniac. (Don't you get it? The Prez, The first Tiger... I's all from Calvin and Hobbes !! It's a JOKE, man! )
Oh well.... Can't say anymore than this I think....
Purely coincidental. I've been spending more time in the sports ngs lately, due to basketball season taking off and baseball players reporting for spring training.
Usenet is NOT the real world. You can be whoever you want on Usenet, you can be an absolute asshole on Usenet without facing repercussions, like a kick in the teeth.
Fair enough. Since we'll never agree, and you feel more strongly about the newsgroup subject to begin with, and since I will never agree with the pledge concept, I'll take my business elsewhere. There's still about 35,000 other newsgroups out there.
Later.
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(Hammer nail here--> <-- for a new monitor.)
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But the FACT remains that that IS what happened... (and others have commented on it..)
as
So. Are you saying the points I made above are invalid? If so then you are being purely sophistric and it is therefore pointless trying to reason with you. (But then I wouldn't know cos I've never been an arsehole. And kicks in the teeth are things other have tried and failed miserably in...)
So, you're saying because we don't agree on the pledge you're leaving the NG?
Playing the martyr a little isn't it? Has anyone been screaming at you to piss off? Not me certainly, and no-one I'VE seen....
(But I KNOW you put the massive trailer at the end of your post to annoy me when I had to snip it to reply huh! ; ' ) )
Dave, take a deep breath and let's stop this huh? As I said above and you've agreed... we're not gonna agree on the pledge question, and as you said to Toni, MY problem was with the rubbishing of it after it had worked so well. And you HAD agreed to not do that (rubbish it that is.)