Well, I'm done. I don't think I'm doing a very good job as enforcer anymore, so I'm going to make way for someone more deserving. Anyone who wants the job, reply to this and say so. I'll Pick the person who I think would do the best job of it from those who volunteer. I'll still participate in the group ( I still think I know more about southpark than anybody else here :) ), and I'll stick to the pledge (haven't broken it yet!). But, I think that somebody out there could do a much better job than I have. Any takers?
Martin Hazelbower writes this bit...which should follow...unless I [spipped it] or write directly under this......the following has been wittered by......
YEAH, we could be a BIG MUTHA enforcer dude....that would kick....(well, maybe not).....and we could drop huge jellybean bombs on the unsuspecting trolls....causing them to stick to the floor...where we all kick the SQUA in the nuts!!!!!! ____________________________ [email]
" the lord awaits " " awaits what? " " his daily RUB DOWN "-me in all my wickedness!! " Kick My *BUCKET* " " Very shagadelic...it's not mine, baby, honest. ....someones playin' a prank on me[!] " __________________________________________________
Martin Hazelbower writes this bit...which should follow...unless I [spipped it] or write directly under this......the following has been wittered by......
Dave, you weren't around when the trolling was bad. (Or else you were lurking...)
If you were you'll know that it was getting pretty bad, and that is where the Pledge came from...
Jeff volunteered to enforce it, (I honestly think he may not have thought it through and is finding it a little difficult to keep up, but hey... He did very well for the time he did it...)
The title Enforcer is NOT as it may suggest one of being heavy handed with posters, but just to suggest protocol for the NG that we have ALL agreed on. And to remind those who KNOW those protocols that they wanted it that way....
No-one is netcopping. But if you see the state that some NG's have gotten into recently, (Is alt.tv.simpsons still as troll ridden? I LEFT it because of them...), you'll understand why we are doing this.
Anyway. As I said, all the regs and most of the newcomers (and even yourself), signed the pledge and the only way it will work is if it is 'enforced' as Jeff put it. (In fact uk.media.tv.simpsons have taken our pledge (Word for word!!) and started it up there as well. So obviously others feel the theory is sound)
No, most of the trolling is gone. How long ago did you leave, because I haven't seen one of your posts over there in a while? Coleslaw, Coldsore and Evilchick all left, the only problem over there recently was someone named Alan Paz, but he disappeared and the people who tried to immitate him got bored and left. We still have Anthony Vicarello though and he's still a jerk, but he doesn't post much anyway and you can always block him (I do). While I'm at it I should introduce myself. My name is Craig and I'm a fairly regular poster over at alt.tv.simpsons. I probably won't post here very often but when I do I will try not to waste people's time with stupid or annoying posts.
If there's too many people, then they'll all respond to people who reply to trolls with the same "don't respond to the trolls" message. Then, we end up just adding more and more to the troll-thread and they end up with the attention they want. We need one person who everybody knows will be the one to reply, that way the trolls can die out as fast as possible.
On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:24:24 -0600, "Jeff Plas" wrote:
Two enforcers wouldn't be bad too... see my other post...
Bill The Great NOT SCOT of Sarcastica, Green Chocolate Maker to the Goddess AFR God of Geeks Campmaster at Camp Middle-of-f'in Nowhere! Maintainer of the AFR Picture Gallery West! Authentic, Bonafide, Certifiable ;-) Ren-Geek! I am the Weasel, koo koo ka chu! Webgeek at http://www.billzhouse.com Janitor at The Southpark Mall Keeper of the Sacred Cheesy Poofs of Eire! And no, I'm not happy to see you... it's my sword! Member International Webmasters Association and HTML Writers Guild
"Anyone can post messages to the net. Practically everyone does. The resulting cacophony drowns out serious discussion. Online debates of tough issues are often polarized by messages taking extreme positions. It's a great medium for trivia and hobbies, but not the place for reasoned, reflective judgment. Surprisingly often, discussions degenerate into acrimony, insults, and flames." --Clifford Stoll
"We sure liberated the hell out of this place." - U.S. Army private, France 1944
Myself I feel that the position should only be taken on by one person and one person only.
Reasons: For newbies who answer to trolls and don't know about the Pledge, all they will see is posts by at least two people, berating them for doing something they didn't know isn't the done thing. (The reason I say at least two people is that invariably someone will tag another message on..)
If only one of the enforcers posts then undoubtedly some on the NG will think. Hmmmm (The other enforcer) isn't doing their job, and then the whole thing will be a popularity contest.
Also, If one of the enforcers posts and the other doesn't , some may think... "Oh.. only one enforcer post", and post one themselves...( and if a few people do that....)
In all seriousness, the problem isn't with people 'breaking' the Pledge, it's with people who are new to the group and also cross posters replying to cross posted trolls. Myself, I have written a few replies to cross-posted trolls and sent it to all of the NG's in the list, I do not have any desire to be the enforcer for the NG, but this is OFF the group
In fact here is a sample... (This was in reply to two recent B*****r posts ( Which are dying away! Have we all noticed!! ) )
Dear (Name deleted) I appreciate that you replied to the above post on your own NG. I am from one of the other NG's that this was posted to and we have a policy of trying not to respond to this troll's posts. I apologise for cross-posting this to all the above groups, but I am unaware as to which of them 'this' post originated from. I have deleted 'my' NG from the cross list to ensure that it does not continue this troll's thread.
If you MUST reply to trolls, please check that you are NOT cross-posting when you reply to idiots like the Boi**er. It does not matter whether your posts are clever or mere flames, Trolls will only die away if they are ignored. And cross-posting doesn't help. I apologise again for adding to this thread in 'your' NG'(s) but desperate times call for desperate measures!
Take care, and keep up the good fight!!
Cheers
Now then...The enforcer bit!! If there MUST be two people 'enforcing' Then I would suggest having one to keep an eye open for newbies and posting them with a 'Welcome To South Park' message, advising them on how we handle things here and then to have an enforcer to make replies to "troll answerers"... BUT this counts on the FIRST enforcer doing a helluva difficult job.
As I said. I really feel One enforcer is logically the best choice.
And going by her previous form I think Toni stands out as a firm, yet polite and insistent poster, (Hell, she's been around here a LOT longer than *I* have...)
We don't want this NG to become Big Brother-like, and newbies MUST be made welcome, but we should also take whatever steps we can to ensure that trolling is kept to a minimum....
(And I'm sure we can all agree on THAT!!)
Seriously, you guys, One enforcer is enough....Seriously.......you guys.......
cheers! Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands But Not Enough To Do The Enforcing Bit, But Is Willing To Help Draft The Auto Reply To The Newbies And Repliers......
That wouldn't actually work, what with some servers that take longer to pick up some messages...so, there'd probably be floods of messages from everyone rushing to right a mistake and all. :)
Jeff, say it ain't so! Why don't you think you're doing a good job? Granted there's been a bit of a flame war, but that's to be expected on any NG (some people just get peeved and have to post it, don't ask me why). And more importantly, it's not your fault. I think you've been doing well. Folks have been replying to trolls less and less, and most of the newbies you refer to the Pledge have signed on. Dude, reconsider.
Just thought that I'd been doing a bad job that's all. If enough people ask me to reconsider, I may. Think of this as impeaching myself. If you guys want me to continue, I'll keep doing it as well as I can. If not, I'll choose a successor (I already have someone in mind, if they volunteer for the job).
<in Martin the brainiac kid's voice from the Simpsons>
Oh! Pick me! Pick me! I'm ever so smart!
</Martin voice>
Ok, well, maybe not that smart, but you know how much I crusade against trolls (flamers, boing guy, whatever) all the time, warning newbies and stuff. It'd be a shame to see you depart from your position as enforcer though, 'cause I think you were doing a great job! You said yourself that the troll response thread has declined. But if you still want to step down, then I will gladly step in your place.
I am in full support of Jeff continueing {sic} to be the enforcer... I mostly lurk here, but Jeff does a great job in keeping people from responding to the trolls.
I also think that Toni would be an excellent assistant enforcer.... or High Sherriff, or whatever y'all wanna call him because there are so many newbies here that it must be tough to tell them all about the rules everytime they don't do things exactly the way y'all are used to doing them....
So, I would like to propose that they SHARE the responsibility of enforcer!
We have a motion on the floor... anybody wanna second it?
Bill The Great NOT SCOT of Sarcastica, Green Chocolate Maker to the Goddess AFR God of Geeks Campmaster at Camp Middle-of-f'in Nowhere! Maintainer of the AFR Picture Gallery West! Authentic, Bonafide, Certifiable ;-) Ren-Geek! I am the Weasel, koo koo ka chu! Webgeek at http://www.billzhouse.com Janitor at The Southpark Mall Keeper of the Sacred Cheesy Poofs of Eire! And no, I'm not happy to see you... it's my sword! Member International Webmasters Association and HTML Writers Guild
"Anyone can post messages to the net. Practically everyone does. The resulting cacophony drowns out serious discussion. Online debates of tough issues are often polarized by messages taking extreme positions. It's a great medium for trivia and hobbies, but not the place for reasoned, reflective judgment. Surprisingly often, discussions degenerate into acrimony, insults, and flames." --Clifford Stoll
"We sure liberated the hell out of this place." - U.S. Army private, France 1944
Excuse Bill, he has this typo problem where he types the work "him" when he means "her." <elbows Bill in the ribs> Isn't that right Bill?
BitchMom WebMistress of Billzhouse.com Founder of #alt.tv.southpark ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ For all your SouthPark needs visit http://www.billzhouse.com or mirror site http://yoda.rh.rit.edu/billzhouse/ ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Visit #alt.tv.southpark on Dalnet Point your java enabled browser to: http://www.members.tripod.com/TheSilverRaven/sp_chat.htm Or connect with mIRC or pIRCh, choose IRC Network Dalnet When you get connected, type in /join #alt.tv.southpark *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* remove MY to email me
Bill The Great NOT SCOT of Sarcastica, Green Chocolate Maker to the Goddess AFR God of Geeks Campmaster at Camp Middle-of-f'in Nowhere! Maintainer of the AFR Picture Gallery West! Authentic, Bonafide, Certifiable ;-) Ren-Geek! I am the Weasel, koo koo ka chu! Webgeek at http://www.billzhouse.com Janitor at The Southpark Mall Keeper of the Sacred Cheesy Poofs of Eire! And no, I'm not happy to see you... it's my sword! Member International Webmasters Association and HTML Writers Guild
"Anyone can post messages to the net. Practically everyone does. The resulting cacophony drowns out serious discussion. Online debates of tough issues are often polarized by messages taking extreme positions. It's a great medium for trivia and hobbies, but not the place for reasoned, reflective judgment. Surprisingly often, discussions degenerate into acrimony, insults, and flames." --Clifford Stoll
"We sure liberated the hell out of this place." - U.S. Army private, France 1944
Hehe! :) I have it a bit worse, considering I use a guy's name! ;P I remember, from a while ago, when I first started posting, methinks I was thought to be a guy (and I said something that would have been pretty weird if it was coming from a guy..I dunno what! ;P)....hey, at least you don't get the kind of random ICQ chats I get ("Hi, I'm a 31/f, and I'm wondering, do you use Viagra?" or something along that line! ;P)
In my case, I use MissEllen as a nick on IRC, and I can't even begin to tell you the kind of opening lines I would get from guys.....some I can't mention on here 'cause it's a family ng :)
Come on! newsgroup is like a "club", you post a subject and people reply you, as simple as that.people may not respose to your stuff not because they hate you but because they don't know the subject very well. We don't need to arue the leadership thing just post some stuff here and others will try to reply with humor as possible.
All I can say to you is carry on,like what you did before.
No more impeachments! I'm sick to death of impeachments! You didn't sleep with an intern did you? Or lie when asked about it? Or use a cigar ... never mind<g>.
<breathes sigh of relief> Yeah, I guess I would suck for the job because I have a nasty tendency to believe that people are good at heart and that they will listen to reason.
Like the LAST time that I responded to a troll, mistakenly believing that he had something intelligent to say. However, I figured out the hard way that he didn't really care for anyone else's opinion other than his own.
Hehehe...that's 'cause you're not jaded as I am :P At least I haven't gotten to the point in which I killfile everyone from dejanews, as thallium (or is it Martin?) has done.
Oh yeah, I remember gently chiding you for responding to him.....hehehe sorry about that dude.
Toni writes this bit...which should follow...unless I [spipped it] or write directly under this......the following has been wittered by......
AY! I had to remove everyone from that bloody kill list cause my BEEPING newsreader stopped collecting posts at all(go figure)....but I'm back now.....
____________________________
[email]
" the lord awaits " " awaits what? " " his daily RUB DOWN "-me in all my wickedness!! " Kick My *BUCKET* " " Very shagadelic...it's not mine, baby, honest. ....someones playin' a prank on me[!] " __________________________________________________
Jeff... Hmmm... what can I say? Our last few e-mails have discussed the probs with being the enforcer and the approaches to take.
If you don't feel up to it anymore (Hey, it isn't easy being the 'bad guy' huh!!), then I feel the whole NG will respect your decision... (Whether we agree with you is another story ; ' ) )
Myself, I'd suggest Toni for the job, (If she'd do it.)
She has been a steadfast defender of the faith as far as the tr**l question is concerned...
What ya think Toni????
Jeff... Sorry to see you step down. GLAD to see you're sticking around though....
Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands
Toni's actually who I had in mind, if she'd volunteered. And she did, whole-heatedly. But, it seems that a lot of people don't think I'm doing as bad a job as I thought I was. I like Bill's suggestion. My newsreader doesn't always download all the messages, so I miss some things. And, sometimes I just don't have time to tell people the rules of the group. But, I think that if Toni wanted to be "deputized" or whatever and help me control the troll population, I'd be up to continuing. How about it Toni? If one of us gets to a troll-response before the other's responded, then we go for it. Sound good?
In Terrance and Philip's words, I volunteer whole-fartedly! :D
Yeah, same here.....sometimes I would get messages which were obviously responses to the original message, and like 2 days later the orginal message pops up. I wonder why that happens?
Oh oh! Can we play good cop/bad cop and I be the bad cop? Heeheehee just kidding.
Hmmmm.....but what if for example, you respond and for some reason your post hasn't shown up on my newsreader yet, then I respond to the post too, only to find out a little later.....what then? It'd seem like we'd be ganging up on the poor clueless newbie.
OK, just an idea here. Instead of posting to the thread they were on, why not start a new thread with the newbies handle as the title (ie-"NEWBIE X PLEASE READ THIS POST!"). That way the troll's thread should die (in theory at any rate), and the newbies could be informed at the same time. You could also include an end to the post stating if they see another post labeled as such, it is probably a duplicate of the first. Y'all also may want to consider coming up with a "standard response" post, one for newbies and another for violators of the PLEDGE, though I haven't noticed anu serious offences of the latter (it would save y'all a bunch of typing in the long run). Just a thought.
This is starting to sound like a fascist organization instead of a
newsgroup.
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How do you figure that? Fascism is defined (in the crappy Random House Dictionary I have) as "a totalitarian governmental system led by a dictator and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism". Going by this definition: 1) There is no dictatorship here, just folks who are fed up with trolls and the threads they create by having someone post a response (although it may be witty and clever) to the original, often inflammatory, message. The regulars who have taken the PLEDGE have ceased doing so, it is just down to the new folks to this NG who continue. 2) There is no "dictator" in charge of the NG, no one here holds "absolute power" (the definition of dictator). And by posting to the new folks regarding our views (hopefully NOT ON THE SAME THREAD <hint, hint>), we are merely making them aware of the group's (read "almost all of those who have spent a good deal of time in this NG") beliefs. Whether they follow these guidelines or not is up to them, but they will get more respect from the vast majority of the regulars here if they pay heed to the PLEDGE and don't respond to the trolls. The Enforcer (and perhaps his/her "deputy") have no power other than to point out the beliefs outlined in the PLEDGE (and welcome new folks, of course), so this position does not fall under the title of "dictator". 3) While folks defense of SP may be likened to a type of "nationalism" (though there is no nation involved, I guess you *could* call it "newsgroupism" <g>), it is in response to attacks made on the "home ground", similar to an invasion of an actual nation. Show me one country out there which would allow themselves to be invaded without any resistance. Rising to the defense of one's "home ground" is natural. What we are trying to do is to rise to the defense by ignoring the invader (practicing non-violence?), who will perish without the attention and conflict they are apparently craving. 4) Aside from the trolls, I haven't seen any sign of racism in this NG, have you? 5) which leads me to the following conclusion: This NG's approach to dealing with trolls is more in the line of Buddhism than Fascism.
Sure. It's just that the word "Enforcer" seems dictatorial to me. "Enforcer" conjures up images of police states, not democracies.
Chalk my attitude up to the power of words. If, instead of Enforcer, the word Moderator or Mediator or any other "less threatening" word was used, maybe I wouldn't have said what I said.
Well. In a way, the fact that trolls are discriminated against because their beliefs of what Usenet is for are vastly different from the general concensus of opinion of 'non-trolls' or 'newsgroup regulars' might potentially be considered a form of racism. I mean, where does the concept of 'racism' end and the concept of 'enthocentricity' (or NGcentricity) begin?
Ok, fine....point taken. I will now be known as a Moderator. Sound good?
If you really want to get technical, it's not a form of racism for the simple fact that trolls are not a race. They are merely a group of people who find it fun, for some reason, to annoy others. The attention they seek is in disrupting the harmony of a newsgroup.
Again, Dave, the problem here comes from you missing the start of all this. The 'title' enforcer was coined by Jeff himself. It is not a term tht is usually used within the group. In fact I guess the only reason you ever saw the term was because Jeff decided he was stepping down.
It's not a question of being threatening. This opens up the point you bring up later...
This is actually nothing to do with beliefs of how NG should be used. It is to do with the beliefs of others within the NG and how they choose to (Or not to ) respond to said trolls. Taking anything like this purely at face value, then anyone could be called a ****-ist. The thing is that most news servers *do* have rules against certain kinds of trolling, spamming and flaming. So in *that* case all we (The Regs) on this NG are doing is sticking to the rules and ALSO making a place that we frequent a nicer place to be.
Again, you *could* take the view (As you 'seem' to be doing, but I somehow get the feeling your just playing Devil's Advocate ; ' ) ), that *any* form of 'enforcement' (for want of a better term), is a bad thing. But ultimately, no-one CAN actually stop anyone from posting to a troll. If people want to then they shall, that is why we have the Pledge in the first place. Not everyone has signed it. And no-one can be forced to.
BUT, unless people wanna find themselves ignored by the rest of the NG then it really IS better to ignore the trolls, otherwise they'll find themselves in the killfile along wihth the other trolls.
How about just wanting what we see as a better NG than it HAS been to STAY that way???
Covenant. A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands Fast Becoming Dave's Main Debatist!!!!
Hey, sounds like a great idea :) I've kinda done something similar in the past in which I would just start a new post and address it to all the newbies.
Very true.....I get tired having to type up all that info about, every few weeks it seems....but I'd also like to include the descriptions of the different troll posts....wasn't that you who wrote it? At any rate, it was brilliant and informational :)
few weeks it seems....but I'd also like to include the descriptions of the different troll posts....wasn't that you who
No, actually I just did the psuedo-latin translations. I think ratboy did the original posting of the troll types. BTW ratboy, could you post the location of the troll FAQ again? I'd like to see the entire list (another NG I've been hitting may have a troll pretending to be two folks (I'm not convinced this is the case though), although one of them says they are two people who just happen to be engaged ... I was wondering what the "proper" name for that trolling style would be)
alt.troll (Pretty simple, huh?) Search on "FAQ" and you'll find it easily enough.
Hmmm. I don't think the "TWO, TWO, TWO TROLLS IN ONE" type was discussed in the FAQ, but maybe it should be.
There's a troll in one of my sports ngs who changes his name
repeatedly. He fools nobody, because it's a lot harder to change your
attitude and writing style than it is to change your screen name. His
style is uniquely his, and as identifiable as a thumb print.
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Seinfeld FAQ http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/7217/faq.html
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Perhaps sending by email would also be a good idea, as well. Some newbies might be the kind that post, and then move on, and not come back to the group or anything. If they get the message via email, then we're sure they actually do get the message, which would even be helpful to them in other newsgroups as well...newbies probably don't know to look for netiquette FAQ's and all, but this will get them on the right track...newbies usually have to have something looking right at them, for them to actually consider it and all--when you're a newbie, you're usually kinda confused! :)
JB "You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane... It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity.'"- Rev. Arthur Belling
AAAAAACK!!! Jeff! You are doing a VERY good job as enforcer!!! Just 'cause some people might be a bit of a thumb up the ass to you, it doesn't mean you're not doing a good job!!! Just 'cause one or two bad apples don't listen to the rightful authoritaaaahhh, doens't mean you suck or anything! I SAY, KEEP AT IT!!! You owe it to the people! :P
BTW, I refuse to volunteer, as I think you are doing an EXCELLENT JOB!!!!! :)
Sorry, Kyle. Thanks a lot for the show of support, it means a lot to me. But I've already decided. Besides, I think Toni will do a much better job than I ever did.
Kyle, (JEFF), that's what everyone has been saying...... I don't know 'where' Jef has gotten this idea from, but he has apparently... I dunno what the solution to this is...