I've waited 4 years for it. DVD commentary on 5F05

Dec 25, 2006, 1:45 PM ET11 posts by 6 postersalt.tv.simpsons
11 posts
spam_listalt.tv.simpsons

Ever since the Simpsons began coming out on DVD with commentary, I've been waiting for them to get to my favorite episode, 5F05, "Lisa the Skeptic." This is the one where they find the angel skeleton in season 9, but it was really a hoax perpetrated by the new mall builders.

Besides all the other reasons why this is a great episode, which was written by David X. Cohen(David S. at the time), with brilliant humor, social commentary, and insight into the human condition, it also had the best scene and piece of dialogue in all of Simpsons's history and therefore, TV history.

The scene is at the kitchen. Lisa angrily walks in after being disgusted by the town's acceptance of the angel as real when she encounters Marge.

    Lisa: Oh, those morons make me feel so angry!
    Marge: Maybe so, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't call
       them morons.
    Lisa: But they are morons! What grown person could believe in
       angels?
    Marge: Well, your mother for one!
    Lisa: You? But you're an intelligent person, mom.
    Marge: There has to be more life than just what we see Lisa,
       everyone needs something to believe in.
    Lisa: It's not that I don't have a spiritual side. I just find
       it hard to believe there's a dead angel hanging in our
       garage.
    Marge: Oh, my poor Lisa, if you can't make a leap of faith now
       and then, well, I feel sorry for you.
    Lisa: Don't feel sorry for me mom. I feel sorry for you.

Scene ends with Lisa leaving.

That last line is one of the most cold and brutal lines I've seen in any form of fiction. It violates every rule of sitcom writing where a scene has to end with either a joke or some comforting and trite statement that gives the rebellious child either their come-uppance or superficial words of wisdom to ponder.

But as you can see, that's exactly what didn't happen(You should review the scene again to get the full effect). The non-believing child had the final say, and part of the harshness was that it was said with such casual self-satisfaction. There was no intentional viciousness in the statement, because if there were, then by sitcom rules, the writers would have Lisa apologizing to Marge at the end. This moment just stands by itself, not to be addressed ever again.

And that's what makes it great. The show could still surprise me. The writers had broken the rules of a sitcom while being true to the characters and human nature. They didn't take the cowardly way out where the believers are always right, get the last word, and have the forces of divine intervention show-up the skeptic. They also didn't write it with embarrassed self-consciousness where any suggestion of atheism must be said meekly and delicately.

As for the commentary itself, I was very glad to hear that this scene made up the biggest part. There were several speakers, but the ones I focused on were David S. Cohen's and Yeardley Smith's. Unfortunately during the scene itself, Cohen decided to tell a completely unrelated story about seeing Nicholas Cage at an auction, but the others still knew that this was the most significant part of the episode and talked about it again. Of course, they mostly addressed the harshness of the statement rather than the qualities which make it so unique and profound. I'm just grateful they noticed it too though, and I invite you all to see it again and think about how special this moment is in Simpsons's history.

Good and great TV needs to be acknowledged so that the creators, who sometimes read the newsgroups, know that their work is appreciated. I also remember that the comments for this episode when it came out were mixed. So I wanted to say why I thought this was the best moment in Simpsons's history, as opposed to all the "Worst episode ever!" postings that sometimes plague this group.

unknownspam_listalt.tv.simpsons

Yeah, you're right, a little girl loses her faith and rebels against her parents. BEST MOMENT IN SIMPSONS HISTORY!!!

in case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.

Long live the EETRWY!!
spam_listunknownalt.tv.simpsons

the skeleton. I suppose you could categorize her actions as rebellion (I would not), but in a typical sitcom, she'd have to learn her lesson and repent at the end. This didn't happen, her skepticism was vindicated, and the believers proven wrong. Again, this breaks all the rules of sitcom writing.

Well, duh.

Great post!

I agree, that scene is quite powerful. I can't help but feel pity for Marge when Lisa unleashes that perfectly sincere finishing blow, mainly because I'm inclined to agree with Lisa, but the combination of implications really is quite effective:

1. Marge is gullible. 2. Marge reveals that her admiration for Lisa is conditional (a sad moment in any child's life). 3. Marge patronises Lisa with pity over something that is so far outside of Lisa's reality that the only effect it has on Lisa is lowering her opinion of Marge. 4. Lisa realises that Marge isn't as great as she thought.

Number 4 is the killer.

And ignore that other guy and just wait for the "respond to somebody's long and coherent post with something short and incoherent for irony" style humour to die out. It will. Probably not on this thread, but it will. Eventually.

Harry Michaels

[email] wrote:

Thanks.

I think what is really striking is that these themes and ideas are addressed at all. A TV child's disappointment in their parents is usually limited to something like discovering an affair or the hypocrisy of their past drug use. But for it to be over religious belief and for the child to throw the parent's condescending pity back into her mother's face was shocking, potentially off-putting, and truly daring. The only other time I recall that Lisa is really disappointed in Marge is when she cheats during a baking competition("All's Fair In Oven War"), but Marge was clearly wrong it that one.

Yes, it is strange that people visit newsgroups to tell people that they are giving too much significance to a topic when the very point of Usenet is to provide a forum for detailed discussion on these topics.

Having said that, I was thinking about another line which was very interesting. Although it was just a joke, I've also re-examined the part where the town was rioting and they burned down the "Springfield Robotics Lab". A robot asked as he was burning, "Why? Why was I programmed to feel pain?". This is an idea that can be asked about God/the creator(if you can believe in him) as it applies to mankind and yet another example of the episode addressing the great philosophical questions.

[email] wrote:

A crappy episode. Lisa is out of character. This is the same Lisa that believed a person would go to hell for stealing cable, but suddenly the idea of angels is preposterous? Not to mention the whole "angel skeleton" plot device. How could an angel die in the first place to leave a skeleton? Why doesn't anyone bring this up? (i.e. Flanders, Lovejoy?)

This is the first box set I won't be buying; it was around season 9 when the show jumped the shark.

I don't know why this is inconsistent. You can believe in God and the Devil and still not believe in things such as Jesus or the Virgin Mary appearing on tacos or skid marks. A better example would be when she was fearful when Bart sold his soul to Milhouse.

This is why it is perfectly reasonable to be religious and yet question an angel skeleton. If you expect someone as religiously credulous as Flanders to doubt the angel, then certainly Lisa should as well.

Anyway, if you listen to the commentary, the writers and producers now consider the plot device to be dubious for that very reason. I don't mind it because there has often been a comic-book quality to some of the stories where something surreal or fantastic happens(meteor striking Springfield, Stone-Cutters, Lisa becomes Buddhist after church commercializes) that when done right can be very compelling.

That's too bad. I know this episode was controversial, but season 9 had some others which are classics that I thought made this season the best.

"The Joy of Sect" - Homer joins the Movementarian cult "The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson" - Homer recovers car in New York "Bart Carny" - Carnies move into the house "Lisa The Simpson" - Lisa fears Simpson stupidity gene "Trash of the Titans" - Homer becomes sanitation commissioner "Girly Edition" - Bart and Lisa get their own kids newsprogram

Simpsons fans will be rewarded with a showing of Lisa the Skeptic, Simpsons detractors will be punished with a showing of Lisa the Skeptic.

Good one.

This always makes me want to eat barf, mmmm, barf.

hate this episode.

makes ya think, don't it?

Walter Traprock wrote:

At least it made an impression on you. That was a great line.

I liked how the carnies' kept their breakfast in the barf bucket. Again, at least it made an impression on you.

Some great moments in "The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson":

1) Barney being designated driver on same day as Duffman awards
   him unlimited beer.
2) Homer destroying the car when he uses a jackhammer to get
   the boot off the wheel.
3) Homer chased by 70s pimp.
4) Marge's dream of being in a Broadway audience.
5) Leaving New York behind a trash truck.
1) Homer's inability to bribe Wiggam.
2) Homer's obsession with the Carny code.
3) The final play which wins back the house.  Brilliant
   in its simplicity.
4) Bart wanting to do virtual gardening after rejecting
   real gardening.
5) Cooder pulls cigarette out of his butt and says he
   won't be able to do it again for a few hours.
6) Homer contemplates letting the canies back in.

Another one of my favorite moments in Simpsons's history. Bart and Homer eat candy hidden in the couch cushions and Homer says, "C'on and join your family," to Lisa. "There's room for one more." Damn that's funny.

I'm guessing "Trash of the Titans" doesn't have to be defended so from "Girly Edition":

  • Willie's reaction to Lisa saying that Bart is his son.
  • Lisa laughing and then Mojo behind her laughing.
  • "Pray for Mojo".
  • Mojo collapsing after trying to dance because he is sick from overeating.