Lisa´s character depth [Questions]

Here are again some (hopefully thought-provoking) questions about my favorite topic - classic character depth and character destruction in recent seasons.

Personally, I think the best, deepest, and most complex character in classic OFF seasons was always Lisa, so the degradation and flattening of her three-dimensional character was IMO the biggest waste ever (right after Homer�s "funny" transformation from lovable dimwit and lazy father into weird jerk.)

All this would of course need a lot of rambling but let me try to say it in short:

Her behaviour in classic episodes like 7G06 or 7F19 was the result of a truly multi-layered character and often based on her deep childhood angst (the fear of being alone in a world without a person she can relate to) and on the inner conflict between her own great sense of moral and the real world.

That quality (the plight and ability to deal with creative suppression) made her so complex and deep (read my 7G06 and 7F19 review for more and watch the Season 2 DVD.)

Her behaviour in recent seasons (to a lesser degree already since Season 7 or 8) is often based on a strange and stereotypical "I�m smarter than you" attitude without a trace of true conflict between her inner self and her world (and of course without "real" emotions like fear or angst.) It�s often just flat, preachy, and annoying - a whiny and self-righteous mini-adult and stereotypical phrase machine and that�s IMO very sad in comparison to her classic complexity.

So what would you say:

Did the writers "destroy" the true complexity of Lisa�s character when they transformed an 8-year-old child into a whiny mini-adult? Or was it necessary to change the character to keep it fresh?

Any opinions?

Chris

P.S. Feel free to send me your own reviews (especially about Season 2) and I�ll use them for my website.

Lisa always sucked, and Homer was more of a jerk in the earlier seasons then he is now, he's gone from angry dad into weird goody goody. Probably in an attempt to appease cretins like you.

Go watch Sex in the City or something

Nyder "Chris Pfeiler" wrote in message news:[email]...

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In article , "Winky" writes:

On 31 Jul 2002 06:19:40 GMT, [email] (Jeremy B) wrote:

Oh, right, BLOCKO.

"Nyder" wrote in message news:...

No, LIKE YOU. Now, go buy more merchandise.

Speaking of sex, you're the reason people invented condoms.

Poisonmail wrote:

Sad but true :-(

Good line.

Chris

Why do people who don't like the show know bother to watch it or even post to newsgroups?

What a fuckin idiot

Nyder "Poisonmail" wrote in message news:[email]...

increasingly

great.

replied to

used

"Nyder" wrote in message news:...

Why do people who don't like others's opinions linger on a newsgroup?

"Jake Lennington" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

post

I guess they don't have enough to complain about in their real life.

I stopped watching it for three years. I've only recently started again.

Because this is alt.tv.simpsons, not alt.tv.simpsons.seasons.9-present.

Your insult cut straight to the bone, sir. I am now crushed for life and must jump off a cliff.

n.

In article ,

I agree with most of what you wrote, with one exception. Lisa is a more of a mini-adult in the early episodes, and more of a child now.

The whiny, reactionary attitudes Lisa often displays in current episodes is very childlike, or at least teen-like. Children are very one-dimensional. They lack the life experience to come to conclusions on their own, so they copy adults that they admire. Often, this holds especially true of intelligent kids, because they want to be seen as mature. The recent episode in which Lisa tries to impress the environmental activist is a good example. Children imitate. That's how they learn.

The Lisa of early episodes, however, is clearly the product of adult writers expressing themselves through an 8 year old character. She's more enjoyable to watch because we're adults (sort of) and we recognize ourselves in her, but her character isn't really consistent with her age.

And that's my two cents.

Rob.

you shot who in the what, now?

"A Breakfast" wrote in message news:[email]...

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A Breakfast wrote:

Good points, but personally I still think her character was more childlike in the early years. Let me try to explain my point of view:

Back then she had emotional reasons for her behaviour. Feelings like deep childhood angst and her search for an adult role model (intellectual and emotional) are IMO typical for a child. They�re maybe untypical for an 8-year-old child but maybe it was her unique quality to be 8 years old in certain aspects and then to be much older in other aspects.

There was a real balance and both sides of her character were somehow believable and three-dimensional. She could philosophize about social problems and Zen buddishm but she also could cry and feel lonely and act like a sad child who tries to find a place in the world.

When she calls Homer a baboon in 7F19 we know why (namely because of truly emotional reasons and because of a character-related concept that was created during the episode) but when she calls other people "idiots" and "meat-eating morons" in recent seasons, it�s IMO pretty annoying. There�s IMO no real character base for such behaviour, no concept, no deeper character-related writing that leads to such lines but just her flat "My way of life is much better than your way of life" attitude.

It has become better in some episodes, "Lisa The Treehugger" was an improvement (but her angry speech about moral outrage is IMO again a rather stereotypical phrase) and so was "Little Girl in the Big Ten" but both episodes have some typical modern problems.

Maybe she tries to copy adult behaviour in current episodes, but then she copies it so much that she hast lost her balance and identity and "own" three-dimensionality (IMO). She has become some kind of black & white character and that�s a strong simplification of the classic style of the show.

Maybe complex emotion and believable balance between child-like behaviour (e.g. childhood angst) and complex expression of social satire and writers opinions are the true quality of classic Lisa and the reason why it�s so much more enjoyable for adults to watch the "old" Lisa and to dislike the modern and IMO simplified and too one-dimensional Lisa.

But that�s just my oldschool opinion.

Chris

P.S. As usual sorry for bad English, written in a hurry.

In article , [email] (Chris Pfeiler) wrote:

"Marge, may I play Devil's Advocate?":

Well, that was my point in the first place, children in real life often _are_ annoying and their opinions _are_ black and white and arbitrary. I'm only looking at which version of Lisa is more true to an 8 year old mentality. I'm not saying that the new Lisa is a better character, just more in line with the established age (although this is probably unintentional on the part of the writers, they just want a foil for Homer). Children don't philosophize about social problems or Zen because society and philosophy are adult inventions that children are simply not capable of understanding. Conversely, no adult (an adult writer, for example) can truly adopt a child's way of thinking.

Take the "baboon" tirade which you mentioned. Yes, a child would have yelled at her father and run off, but the speech beforehand ("I'm glad I'm not crying..." etc.) was very adult. An eight year old would not be concerned with Homer's opinion, she would only express her anger and frustration. Children don't have that level of guile, that's what makes them innocent.

I like the early episodes better too, but it has nothing to do with the level of realism. I mean, look at how obnoxious 'reality shows' are.

Well, that's enough of my balloon juice for now. Peace out. Rob.

"A Breakfast" wrote in message news:[email]...

That describes 99% of the population, adults included.

"Chris Pfeiler" wrote in message news:[email]...

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Well, would Lisa's character stay fresh in that environment? I mean, doesn't it seem that if someone like Lisa lived in that setting for very long, she would start to get a bit jaded? Ok, I admit this is a weak argument, but it helps me cope with the erosion of one of my favorite Simpsons characters.

"That Guy" wrote in message news:...

is she perhaps <snicker> losing her perspicacity?

hehehe

"pope prismacolor" wrote in message news:[email]...

Heh. Good one.

"That Guy" wrote in message news:...

thanks

[email] (Chris Pfeiler) wrote in message news:...

LISA DIED? OH MY G-D! Wait a minute, it says "Lisa's character depth". I thought it said "Lisa's character's death". Oops. Sorry.

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