What wrong with disliking the episode?

I don't know why people are bashing so hard on critics of last night's show. Of course, a post that simply says, "It sucked," is setting yourself up to be slammed. But, even though I'm a die-hard fan, should I lie and say I thought the episode was good when I didn't? The Simpsons has set high standards, and that's good. It's okay to be disappointed -- it doesn't make you a "bad" Simpsons fan.

The thing that I found interesting (disturbing) about both the Halloween ep and last night's ep is that there seems to be a much more random element to the one-liners and other jokes. The episodes are filled with things like, "Oh yeah, I rob now." Not that the line isn't funny, but I expect a few of these lines an episode, while the last couple eps seem to be filled with them, leading to a feeling of discontinuity -- like the episode is just wandering around and can't decide which direction it wants to go in.

I think it worked much better in the Halloween episode because the stories are shorter and you expect THOH to be a little out there anyway. But, even though I chuckled several times last night, there were also several times where I just sat there wondering what the hell was going on. (That whole scene outside the boat with the seal, for example.)

Anyway, it's just a feeling --that's the best I can describe it. It feels like the writers are on something a little more powerful than what they usually take, just tossing out random ideas and then finding a way to fit them all together. When I sit down and watch these episodes again I'll be able to give more concrete examples.

The other thing is that the writers seem to be pushing the edge a bit more, both with language and with sexuality. Some examples:

"It certainly covers up the cat crap" "Pull on me clover" (or whatever the hell he says) Homer and Marge debate "doing it" in front of Bart Smithers eating Burns

Not that this is a bad thing necessarily, but it could indicate either a feeling of boredom on the part of the writers or they're just running out of ideas.

Even a bad Simpsons episode is better than most other stuff on TV, but that doesn't mean people can't be concerned and shouldn't voice their opinion.

what you said is perfectly find because you gave examples and reasons, it is genuinely annoying to see minutes after every episode a post that reads WORST EPISODE EVER im sure the writers are kicking themselves in the ass for ever coming up with that line. criticism is great and necessary but the idiots that claim to be fans and then bash every episode for no apparent reason piss real fans like you and me off

It also means that we should be allowed to disagree with each other. If someone bashes Simpsons, he should be allowed to be bashed as well. Telling people not to bash each other is pointless because if there is a difference of opinion, then voices must be heard. It sounds almost hypocritical to say "Hey, don't yell at us because we disliked this episode" because in theory, by you stating your opinion, everyone should be allowed to state theirs. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bash you, I'm simply saying that I should have the OPTION to do so. That's what makes a discussion group so good, discussion...am I right?

Andy(atuc.com), liked the episodes and doesn't care if other hated them...it's their prerogative...

Jamal Bernhard wrote:

There's an odd thing with the Simpsons in that it's like Monty Python. People memorize routines and they become part of their daily lives. The new episodes can never live up to the old ones for the same reason they'll never be a better band than the Beatles. The old stuff means more to you. If the Simpsons went off the air now then every episode would be a classic in people's minds in 5 years. Once you see the episode you hate now in reruns 10 times it'll be good.

But if the Beatles or Python came out with something new now it'd get slammed no matter how good it was because it carries with it the weight of the past. It doesn't have to only live up to how good the old stuff was but to your memory of how good it was. That's really, really hard.

I write the Simpsons comic and people seem to dig it. I get good reviews on most of the web sites and we got nominated for an Eisner award. The exception is the hard core fan pages that always give it an F or at best if they actaully like it a D-.

I call it Star Wars syndrome. The fans will line up for days to see the next film but will say they hate it and then line up again the next time.

Ian Boothby

Of course, because there is always that hope that the next one will be better. I may dislike a Simpsons episode or two but I'll probably never stop watching. It would have to suck for literally years before I would consider not watching.

The newer episodes lack the magic of the classics. This is not some imaginary perspective on my part, but a reality that most would agree with. Perhaps it's just not possible for a show to be truly great for more than 5-6 years. Something to do with the human psyche maybe........

EDF

I still like the show, but I definitely agree that the new eps aren't as incredibly great as the old ones.

The fact is, we had huge expectations EVERY WEEK while the "classic" seasons were on the air..... and the show exceeded those expectations, EVERY WEEK. This appreciation for those past seasons as "works of genius" isn't something that developed in hindsight..... we were aware that we were witnessing greatness *as it was happening*.

It's not that today's eps are bad.... far from it. It's just ..... I'm not sure ANY show could stay THAT staggeringly great.

mg

Today, I saw the ep where Homer tells the kids the story of how he and Marge met. That is a good example of the sweetness and subtle humor the show was capable of. It was touching without being maudlin, and there were lots of subtle mannerisms and jokes, such as the guidance counselor setting that stringy thing with the balls into motion while wheeling back into his chair. I also liked how Homer blew the dust off the stylus on his record player before setting it down on the record. I just love subtle stuff like that. Of course, it had some classic stupid humor in it, like Homer showing everyone his "rebuttal." ________________________________________________________________

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[email] (Matt G) wrote in message news:...

You're just wrong. The show has lost nothing; on the contrary, "The Simpsons" keeps getting funnier. Last season was the best yet, and this year's off to a fine start.

You people seem to fear more than anything the expansiveness of the storylines in recent years, but to write this show, episode after episode for 11 years, in any other way would be to limit, cripple and kill it.

now now, everyone's entitled to an opinion...and frankly, I *think* yours is wrong...but i'm not gonna say anything like "you're just wrong", because it's an opinion. however, there is NO way the simpsons are the same as ever. in the earlier seasons, Lisa wasn't explaining anything, Bart/Lisa went to school/Homer to work more frequently, the jokes weren't as crude, they followed a storyline, and more. Now, everyone's at home all of the time, and we have things like moe winning the 250,000; yet having to, in this episode, say something like: "yeah, I steal now", and if past shows of this era are any barometer, he won't do any more stealing. David

"I'll plug YOUR hole...I mean, eureka!"-Homer Simpson Chicago Cubs...93 years and counting

I agree with you, and then again I don't. I agree with you in that episodes need time to become "classics" and therefore the new episodes can't possibly have the same emotional attachment as the older ones. I disagree with you in that I still believe I have a good idea which new episodes I will consider "classics" in the future and which ones are unlikely to ever find a great place in my heart. (There are, after all, several old episodes that I dislike as well.) Some new episodes like Trilogy of Errors I believe I will love 10 years from now. Others like Sunday's I believe I will not.

Jamal Bernhard wrote in message news:[email]...

Only time will tell. But I'm betting "aaah cobras" and "the clown is down" will be much quoted lines on here within a year.

"Ian Boothby" wrote in message news:4YXH7.1416$[email]...

new

never be a

I dunno, I've been a pretty hardcore fan since the Tracy Ullman days, and I enjoy the more recent episodes the most. I guess in general you're right...most of the people who post here seem to like reminiscing about the "good old days" before the dreaded surrealism and abstraction started creeping in, but I think the experimentation that's been going on with characters and narrative keep the show fresh. In fact, I think the humor has been getting more creative and original, once the writers started messing around with Springfield's internal consistency.

But like I said, this seems to be a minority opinion, sadly....

genius is seldom recognized in its time and with sitcoms that means 30 minutes

"Bucky Jones" wrote in message news:[email]...

minutes

Actually, I distinctly remember feeling like everything The Simpsons did in the first 5 years was genius as I watched it. The jury is still out on the newer episodes.

I admit that many of the season 8-9 episodes I disliked at the time look much better to me now, but I think that's only because of the general terribleness of the show now. In seasons 8 and 9, the show started to decline. Season 10, in my view, was the last season that should have been aired. 11 and 12 have really betrayed the original show and the characters we came to care about so much. I don't think I will ever look at an episode where the characters are constantly drugged on a strange island for some reason - with a diamond eyed koala bear winking at the end of every segment - and say, "that's a good episode." In five years, nobody will think that's a classic.

Drunk and full of pie, Matt G wrote:

I'd say that I agree with the first line, and that it's not an imaginary perspective. I'd stop short of saying it's a "reality that most would agree with." Nim seems to like the newest episodes even better than the old ones. There is clearly a large audience for the newest episodes, which IMO is well deserved. The show is pretty good right now.

I felt that way, too. I do actually remember thinking after an episode (while recovering from literally rolling on the floor laughing my ass off) how in the world somebody could write something so good. It was amazing how many things they mocked, and how cleverly they mocked them... without giving any hints to the audience. If you understood the situation, you got the satire and it was just... incredibly funny. They mocked things from pop culture to society almost to the point of brutality, but they managed to do it within a cohesive plot that just flowed effortlessly between scenes. On the surface, the episode just seemed to be an innocent story -- that was the genius of it. I don't think it's wrong to appreciate these episodes that way; when something that groundbreaking is created, it deserves praise.

Absolutely. These episodes didn't need time to age. They were incredible.

Very well said. I consider the first five (or so) years to be comparable to Shakespeare, in that the writing appears effortless... but there is so much content packed into each episode, and the stories are great too. I do appreciate current episodes... probably better than 98% of the rest of TV. But the older style of episodes was just so incredibly good (IMO) that it would be near impossible to improve on the formula.

Drunk and full of pie, Ian Boothby wrote:

To me, jokes done in character dialogue aren't what's great about The Simpsons, and The Simpsons has only in recent years focused on more dialogue-based jokes (one-liners). Interesting is that even poor lines can be funny when used out of context, because on a group like alt.tv.simpsons, we're all familiar with those lines. If someone says "Too much pie! That's your problem", to me it's actually funnier than when Grampa said it in the episode. As said in another thread, one could respond to anything in life with a line from "The Simpsons", and the newer seasons have plenty of good lines.

True to some extent, but IMO the older episodes were greater because of their tight focus on and mockery of American society and culture, hidden beneath apparently innocent stories. The current show mocks society more blatantly, with characters themselves giving the commentary in dialogue. That is okay; and the current writers are good one-liner writers. But this doesn't erase from my mind that many of the old episodes were instant classics to me. The new episodes will grow on me, because the one-liners used on this group and elsewhere will take on added meaning... but they just can't stack up to the older style (of course, IMO).

Can't really say I hate any episode, but I come close on 5F20 Lard of The Dance and 2F32 'Round Springfield.

I sort of agree with that. Look at Mr. McCartney, and his new album that they're trying to sell on TV spots. People constantly say how much they like a band's "older stuff" when compared to any new stuff.

But in the case of The Simpsons, I think there's still the ability to create master works like they did before. IMO there were plenty of lower quality eps, for example, before we got the great 3G02 "Lisa's Sax", or the incredible "5F02 Treehouse of Horror 8". The suggestion that we're just not letting episodes age enough, and that the only reason we like the older episodes best is that they've aged negates any analysis of what made the great older episodes.

Maybe I've not been particularly articulate, but I thought I've shown (as have others) in many posts how the new and old episodes differ in style. I like change, but IMO the style that made "The Simpsons" a staggering masterpiece is a valuable and rare approach that would be worth using again. The current Simpsons may sit at the top of television right now, but it does so with the much more convetional "setup-joke setup-joke setup-joke" style that most sitcoms use. It works, but it's just not the masterpiece it once was IMO. Some of us would really appreciate a return to the older style, that's all. I don't believe the show would lose its new audience if it did that, either.

Living up to something isn't important. Something that stands on its own merits is fine. I wouldn't be a Simpsons fan today if I had to "wait before I liked an episode", however. I kept watching from the beginning because I thought the shows were "instant classics" as I watched them. I couldn't be bothered to watch much TV, but I never missed "The Simpsons". IMO letting shows "age" is a different approach, which indicates that the show's style has definitely changed.

I like the Simpsons Comics. It would be a riot to write for them.

How about "Three Stooges Syndrome"?

WOOOBA WOOB Get in there, chowderhead!

I don't think that happened in my case. If this were true, I'd have hated every episode after 7G04 that I saw (I just got back into the country in March 1990... that was the first ep I saw), and admitted that they somehow all "grew on me" in time. I don't remember not liking an episode until I saw "2F32". But, there were many that I instantly liked after 2F32. It's only the more recent seasons, with the more conventional "sitcom" style that seem to need this "aging process". The show is good right now, but IMO it's not the masterpiece it used to be -- because it uses a more convetional style.

on

exception

actaully

It is fun. In fact I should be writing now.

Ian

Drunk and full of pie, Jamal Bernhard wrote:

There are more than a few control freaks out there, on both sides. Here we go again with the "fat cat" bashing; they're pure Baltic Avenue :)

I, for one, applaud those who are not fakes; unafraid to speak their minds. OTOH, I've really been trying to not make what I'd call a "bad episode" a personal grievance against the writers or The Simpsons staff. IMO that's the EXACT reason why people get irritated at the Simpsons episode critics.

The most constructive thing we can do (if we want to be critics) is to understand what makes up an ideal episode, and to contrast that with a perceived bad one. I'm sure, like anyone who creates something, that the writing staff are always looking for feedback on their episodes. It's too bad that in the past, all they've gotten is bitter rants, non-specific criticism, and even personal attacks by the fans. Is it any wonder why they continually mock the "hardcore" internet fans?

In "HOMR", one of the better eps in the last two seasons (IMO), Moe is unexpectedly a surgeon. I didn't hear complaints about that, but there were complaints that Moe suddenly becomes a thief in CABF19. This comes, IMO, from the negative stigma of a crook versus a the relatively cute idea of an illegal, unlicensed surgeon. I don't think the joke was "gangbusters" (as a certain military officer appreciates "Garfield"), but I chuckled.

Just the plot rolling along.

IMO they're at the pinnacle of the sitcom-style of jokes, where every other line of dialogue is meant as a jolt to the funny bone. It's like a game of baseball, where every other pitch is a bunt. Consider this scene from 9F01:

Homer: I see you're not in church, Apu. Apu: Oh, but I am. I have a shrine to Ganesha located in the employee lounge. Homer: (laughs) Hey, Ganesha. Want a peanut? Apu: Please do not offer my god a peanut. Homer: No offense, Apu, but when they were handing out religions, you must've been out taking a whiz. Apu: (angry) Mr. Simpson, please pay for your purchases and GET OUT and (brightly) come again!