If I find out this (crappy) episode was written by a Canadian, pushing some liberal agenda ad nauseum like they all do... well, all I can say is: "Worst Episode Ever".
What the hell was the Canada crap?
May 18, 2003, 8:34 PM ET170 posts by 49 postersalt.tv.simpsons
170 posts
America's answer to all problems...........War
Burn down the barber shops! I hate America!
In article , "ChunkyLover53" writes:
Here's my question for Mr. Chunky Lover. Did you always have the screen name or are u just a big Simspons fan and signed up for it after Homer said it? I'm guessing the latter ??
Absolutely brilliant episode! The Simpsons proves again its worth as the preeminent source of social criticism in American pop culture.
Don't blame Canada (or Canadians). Obviously Canada, the Canadian national anthem, the Maple Leaf symbol (as well as the inclusion of a Quebec flag, reflecting our bilingual and multicultural heritage) was chosen to represent in a very condensed way a whole set of meanings. It is a (idealized) representation of what a nation defined by multiculturalism and multilateralism offers the world. Absolutely brilliantly done.
Canada may represent a different point of view, but it is one that is held by many Americans and most people of conscience around the world.
Is that all part of a "liberal agenda", or just valid social criticism in a time where even journalists have failed to ask questions and make government policy accountable to public opinion? Where the New York Times fears to tread, The Simpsons bravely goes.
And yes I am a Proud Canadian. Deal.
On 5/18/03 8:34 PM, in article [email], "Fruity Nutcake" wrote:
In news:BAEDA641.39D7%[email], Mark Kuznicki wrote:
God this is sad.
Chris
the episode itself wasn't bad untill they threw in that liberal crap at the end. (notice it was at the end and not the begining where 3/4 of the nation would've changed the channel). it's just annoying. everyone knows what liberals think because they won't shut the hell up. what can i do to avoid having some socialist cry in my face around every turn? if it means not watching the simpsons...well so be it. as for canada and the rest of the world? they can wallow in their ignorance. social conscience? it's right here in the U S of A!!! you canadians don't like it? you'll cry a different tune when you need the usa to bail you out when your socialist piloted economy crashes and burns.
"Mark Kuznicki" wrote in message news:BAEDA641.39D7%[email]...
national
represent
a
government
"Brian" wrote in message news:7IWxa.31432$[email]...
the
Interesting that it is the US economy that is heading down the toilet like the Japanese economy while Canada is the strongest economy in the world.
Nelson
Say what? That's 100% bullshit.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...
-US interest rates at all time lows, but deadly deflation still threatens to collapse the US economy, with no signs of a recovery; markets tanking; currency devaluation; consumer confidence shaky at best; unemployment etc -Canada's economic *growth* is the highest of all industrialized nations
canada's socialist government attitudes are going to be it's demise. c'mon, national health care? why do you think we despise the clinton's so much? well... that, and the lies and the fornication and the hmmGLOIvenmaven!!!!(it is a simpson's group)
"Nelson Coelho" wrote in message news:ps9ya.1287$[email]...
to
What do you mean "we", white man?
It's positively criminal (not to mention barbaric) that the US doesn't have universal health coverage!
yeah? you pay for it. we've got enough freeloaders in this country. i don't know about you but i get pissed when i see how much i pay in taxes on every paycheck. why? so other's don't have to work.
"Gus" wrote in message news:[email]...
c'mon,
"Nelson Coelho" wrote in message news:hPWxa.467$[email]...
The US economy will be back. You can't keep the Democrats out of the White House forever. And when they get in, It's back on its feet! With all of its environmental buddies! Ba-ha-ha-ha-ha!!
<WARNING: Off-topic and flammable> | | | | | This is just the kind of thing that I do not understand about America right now. Since when did Americans became so frightened of seeing/hearing alternative views in the media that you have to avoid watching something as harmless as The Simpsons? This is clearly out of fear, but why? I wish someone could explain it to me.
The rest of the "world wallows in their ignorance"? Ignorant people like Nelson Mandela? Like so many well-informed, knowledgeable statesmen around the world? Like many of the world leaders from government, business and civil society represented at the World Economic Forum in Davos? Like the many MILLIONS who demonstrated in the streets in London, Spain, Australia, America and other so-called "coalition of the willing" states? Can so many respected and honest people be so much more ignorant than you, sir? If so, I am sure that they, as I, would love to be illuminated by your wisdom.
I am afraid that ignorance has found a well-protected home in post 9/11 America where the only talk radio is right-wing talk radio, where a liberal voice like Donahue is removed by MSNBC because their consultants were concerned that liberal views would cost the network's ratings, where the Dixie Chicks are banned from corporate-controlled radio networks, where the line between a supposedly free press and government spokespersons has been so blurred as to damage the profession's credibility perhaps irrevocably.
The statement that Canada has a "socialist piloted economy" that will "crash and burn" reveals ignorance on two fronts. For your information, Canada's economy is very much a capitalist one. And if you check out the recent performance of the American deficit and American dollar relative to Canada, I think you may be surprised by what you find. And even a cursory understanding of how the American economy is propped up by corporate welfare and protective trade practices, as well as unsustainable deficit spending and military adventurism, might take a little wind out of your sails.
Sorry to annoy you with more liberalism, but your unquestioned beliefs are not my problem.
As Socrates was the gadfly to the Athenians, so Canada provides a friendly alternative and critical viewpoint.
Friends don't let friends warmonger drunk.
Good luck running an empire - hopefully you'll have better luck than the Romans, Brits, French, Ottomans, Persians and every other empire that grew drunk with its own power and then fell victim to its own hubris.
On 5/18/03 9:46 PM, in article 7IWxa.31432$[email], "Brian" wrote:
i no are u guys THAT THREATENED by a cartoon? "Mark Kuznicki" wrote in message news:BAEDBAD6.40E3%[email]...
right
as
around
many
so,
liberal
the
"crash
Canada,
welfare
the
nation
what
avoid
the
right
the
burns.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 02:33:59 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Yeah... that and the fact that he drew a rating that was so low, it often couldn't be measured (true).
Liberals and their conspiracy theories. So laughable...
So because he basically demolished your argument in every other way imagineable, you have to nitpick a couple of sentences about a talk show? Smart kid you are.
The Crusher wrote in message news:[email]...
False.
Donahue was one of the higher rated programs on MSNBC (more viewers than even Hardball).
But that's okay; you don't need to let any facts get in your way...
--Lisa Simpson
On Tue, 20 May 2003 17:30:06 GMT, "Dave" wrote:
Well, a 0.1 rating is as low as the scale goes... You want facts? Here's the reprint from the 8/28/02 New York Post:
'DONAHUE' DEBUT DRAWS FEW VIEWERS By DON KAPLAN
The ratings for TV vet Phil Donahue's new talk show are almost too low to track. The ratings for "Donahue" scored a .1 rating last Friday - that means fewer than 136,000 viewers nationwide were tuned in during MSNBC's hour-long 8 p.m. talk show.
How bad is that?
"Donahue's show drew a total U.S. audience a little more than twice the size of [a capacity crowd at] Yankee Stadium," cracked one industry observer.
The same night Donahue's arch-rival, Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly - the highest-rated talk-show host on cable - snared about 1.1 million viewers during the same time period, while CNN's "Connie Chung Tonight" had 599,000 viewers, according to Nielsen's total U.S. ratings.
A .1 is not the lowest rating possible. But Nielsen experts say its almost as low as their system can record.
Shows that draw fewer viewers are identified with hash marks, while shows that score no viewers - a near impossible occurrence - score a 0 or are just left blank on the ratings chart. -------------------------------------------------------------- Also follow this link for the ultimate demise of the show, due to low ratings: MSNBC axes Phil Donahue: http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/25/donahue.ap/ Seems pretty clear-cut to me. TV is a ratings game... you get 'em, you stay on the air.
Bill O'Reilly's 8PM show on FOX regularly drew 6 times as many viewers as Donahue and 4 times as many to the now defunct CNN show staring Connie Chung. MSNBC killed Alan Keyes's show a few months prior for the same reason: low ratings. I here Savage Nation isn't on solid ground either.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
The Crusher wrote in message news:[email]...
were
than
The fact that his *debut* drew a 0.1 doesn't contradict my point that by the time he was axed by MSNBC, Donahue had the highest-rated show on that network (again, higher than even Hardball).
More importantly, it doesn't contradict Mark's point that MSNBC had wanted Donahue to tone down his politics for a couple of months.
The Crusher wrote in message news:[email]...
False.
Donahue was one of the higher rated programs on MSNBC (more viewers than even Hardball).
But that's okay; you don't need to let any facts get in your way...
--Lisa Simpson
The Crusher wrote in message news:[email]...
False.
Donahue was one of the higher rated programs on MSNBC (more viewers than even Hardball).
But that's okay; you don't need to let any facts get in your way...
--Lisa Simpson
The Crusher wrote in message news:[email]...
False.
Donahue was one of the higher rated programs on MSNBC (more viewers than even Hardball).
But that's okay; you don't need to let any facts get in your way...
--Lisa Simpson
"The Crusher" wrote in message news:[email]...
Actually, his show was often the highest rated on the network. You could look it up. But you won't.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 02:33:59 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Here's a little trivia for you: What country does Canada rely on for 86% of its total exports? The same country that could shut down Canada's economy in a heartbeat? Yes.
On 5/18/03 10:46 PM, in article [email], "The Crusher" wrote:
Perfect!! You just proved the whole point of that Simpson's episode! When faced with a problem, America's best and first solution is coercion - the threat of violence or economic reprisals.
Yes, America, you are big and powerful enough to destroy Canada's economy, not too mention the power of your many thousands of nuclear warheads. Do you have enough confidence in your own democracy to feel comfortable with that much power? Do you think the rest of the world does?
On Mon, 19 May 2003 03:07:15 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Uhh... who said anything about violence? You must lay awake at night hoping that your big bad neighbor doesn't decide to beat the shit out of you once and for all. Really, though, why would we bother?
On the other hand, if you don't think that Canada will face economic reprisals for biting the hand that feeds it, well...
USA=Shark Canada=Remora
On 5/18/03 11:33 PM, in article [email], "Neo" wrote:
Ohmigod! What don't you get? Economic reprisals, the threat of sanctions, the threat of war and war itself are all coercive expressions of power and are, in international political terms, violent. Yes, you are powerful - we get it, we're not stupid.
But America is supposed be an idea of liberty, democracy and the freedom of people to self-determination. So, a free people in a free democracy chooses a different path for themselves and the only appropriate reaction is a threat?! Look into Michael Moore and question the culture of violence that you live in; how it has so subtly woven itself into the fabric of your society such that you are so quick to move to coercion of all kinds.
Yes, you could pound us into the ground economically. If you did, we'd probably get together with the Mexicans or the Europeans, maybe pull out of NAFTA, join the EU. Of course, that would really piss you off, having your next door neighbour in bed with your new enemy, France. So you would be forced to "liberate" us. And then...what is America? Home of the free? The torch-bearer of democracy? Or the next Rome? Maybe you could grab some Canadian slaves and have them perform as gladiators in the next reality-based television series.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 03:54:56 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry... I didn't know there was someone who actually thinks Michael Moore doesn't distort reality to suit his own purposes. Nevermind...
The Crusher wrote in message news:...
We may be Canada's biggest trading partner, BUT they are OUR biggest trading partner as well. So I doubt "shutting down" Canada's economy would be a good thing for the US to do.
On 19 May 2003 10:55:10 -0700, [email] (bearnie) wrote:
Yeah, but we have OTHER trading partners. Canadians (in effect) don't, and their leaders might have considered this a little before they began the anti-US rhetoric.
Canadians like to argue their points of view along the lines of symmetry, when in reality there is none.
Unlike the US, Canada has a trade surplus which means we export more than we import. This also means we have more money coming in than going out. The US on the other hand is the opposite.
"Neo" wrote in message news:[email]...
news:...
A trade deficit would indicate a stronger economy than would Canada, which depends on it's trade surplus for survival.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
You must have studied economics at Bob Jones.
Oh horseshit! It's truly disgusting to see this administration and their mindless minions trying to suppress speech among other nations as well as its own citizens.
Anyone else see "Fatal Compulsion" on Discovery last night? I think Dubya looks a whole lot like Ted Bundy.
How has the government persecuted those who say things critical of it?
Give me one example.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
American/Canadian tensions serve no one but the enemies of western society, namely Bin Laden and his ilk. Whadda ya say to turning dow the arrogance rhetoric, and we'll turn down the superior rhetoric? Canada and the US have a record of international cooperation unrivaled in history, so letting a silly, soon-to-be irrelevant little war in Iraq act as a divisive unit is silly.
Groening & co. must be reading this newsgroup and laughing their asses off when seeing how so many people have taken their Canadian joke as either an insult to America or an affirmation of Canada's quibbles with US arrogance.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
ummm... I believe I was defending Canada in this post. How is that arrogant?
[email] (Chris �) wrote in message news:...
<Dr. Nick> Don't worry, it's INflammable! </Dr. Nick> There, now this thread is on topic again.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 01:06:13 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Why is it that every Canadian's identity is so tied up in "being Canadian". Whenever I meet one, or introduce one (I know PLENTY of them), it's the first thing they blurt out... "Hi, I'm Canadian". As if anyone cares. You would think they would be embarrased about it. You even see it constantly with Canadian celebrities in their TV interviews (Mike Myers, Jason Priestley, Martin Short, the list goes on), every other sentence contains a reference to "I'm from Canada, and..." Not to mention offensive ad campaigns like Molson's "I AM Canadian", that just scream out "I AM insecure!"
I'll tell you why. The Canadian inferiority complex has reached such gargantuan proportions that they feel they need to constantly proclaim their identity, even when it's totally inappropriate. It's kind of sad that they're so insecure. I suppose when you're a citizen of a country that's completely irrelevant on a global scale, you need to feel authenticated in any way you can manufacture.
omg.... i no u guys are still holding that winter olympic ass kicking grudge...as well as the fact that we wouldn't support the war....but honestly...wats wrong with it....other than it annoys u.....maybe we always say that when we meet you because we don't want you to make some lame ass insults ( that are sooo stupid) about canadians to our faces.... and the i am canadian thing, hello! maybe its because the COMPANY IS canadian. duh! What do u care if we are proud canadians? news:[email]...
On Sun, 18 May 2003 22:30:35 -0400, "ME" wrote:
Uhh, actually, no. 99.999% of Americans haven't even THOUGHT about that hockey game since 2 minutes after it ended. You may find it hard to believe, but we actually have more important things to think about than hockey.
It's kind of humorous that it's the first thing that jumps to a Canadian mind though.
ok...apparently some friggen loser doesn't understand SARCASM....its a hockey game....who cares??! WE are just glad that we are not american......u guys stereotype way too much ....
"[email]" <Phil McCracken> wrote in message news:[email]...
that ashamed of that crap hockey team?? "[email]" <Phil McCracken> wrote in message news:[email]...
As opposed to us Americans who do nothing but fret over BS potential 'terror attacks'? I dunno, man. The way I see it, Canada's a better place to be all around. Especially when you consider the crime rate and all.
Sources close to [email] (Super Mukki) revealed on 18 May 2003 that the following message was delivered to alt.tv.simpsons:
Why is that in quotes? Why are they BS?
It's not like all the space is taken up. You can live there if you feel like it.
Matt Miller wrote:
Because they're being used as a boogey man every time someone harshly criticizes the Bush administration. The entire war on terror is only a means for Bush to push his idiotic agenda.
You can't win a war on terror. It's a political goldmine for Bush; he can ride the "tough on terrorism" angle right on through to the next election. There are a lot of voters who believe everything they hear on the news.
Sources close to "Exatron" revealed on 19 May 2003 that the following message was delivered to alt.tv.simpsons:
This stuff happens with every President. People are emotionally attached to their guy and see attacks on him as attacks on the country. Remember when Republicans were blamed for inciting the OKC bombing?
Does this mean we shouldn't be concerned that terrorists killed 3,000 Americans and intend to kill more?
Matt Miller wrote:
Nice non-sequitor.
Concerned, yes. Paranoid, no. The current means of preventing terrorism focuses solely on curing the symptoms, not the cause. Everything the Bush administration has done will only give terrorist organizations more material to use as propaganda. The Bush administrations actions are excessive and exist only for the purpose of political gain. Part of me wonders if he let 3,000 people die just to silence the people questioning the legitimacy of his administration while creating a legacy that would let him push whatever right wing agenda he wants.
Sources close to "Exatron" revealed on 19 May 2003 that the following message was delivered to alt.tv.simpsons:
emotionally
Democrats used the OKC bombing to criticize people for criticizeing Clinton. It's the same phenomena you're talking about.
killed
What would terrorists not use for propaganda? The only real solution is to kill them and dry up their sources of support.
Nobody's been silenced. Just ignored because they're nuts.
I doubt you'd be complaining if it were a left wing agenda.
Not invading Iraq? (where *are* those pesky WMD's anyway? Powell promised the UN that Saddam had tons & the US knew where they were)
Spoken like a true rightwingnut - to you every agenda is a "leftist" agenda!
I'm scared. Somebody must kill Bush.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
Well said, Exatron! 100% agree
"[email]" wrote:
No, because they lost. And it was BOTH gold medal games, the women as well as the men.
Because we've had more than 20 years of the Americans bragging about the '
Miracle on Ice'.
"[email]" <Phil McCracken> wrote in message news:[email]...
Then what jumps first to an American mind? War, reality shows or boy bands? :)
"eradicator" wrote in message news:bac0v5$krm$[email]...
bands?
all three, in one lean synergised package, cleverly marketed and distributed worldwide
eradicator wrote:
How about a reality show about boy bands in a war?
exellent (hands tenting)
"Exatron" wrote in message news:[email]...
"Simpsons already did it"
"yvan eht nioj"
You know, it is part of our national identity. We hate the world typecasting us in the same bin as you guys. "[email]" <Phil McCracken> wrote in message news:[email]...
Sources close to "ME" revealed on 18 May 2003 that the following message was delivered to alt.tv.simpsons:
Actually you did. You just pretended not to.
In news:[email], The Crusher wrote:
Must be like being gay, cause when you're gay you're made up of nothing but your own filthy sexuality and maybe some fashion sense.
Chris
On 5/18/03 10:33 PM, in article boXxa.36908$[email], "<<>>" wrote:
Woe is me....I am both Canadian AND gay. So I have a double identity crisis. Oh yeah, and I'm German-Canadian. It's a miracle I manage to get through the day.
Come on, is that all you got? Pathetic.
In news:BAEDBE9E.40F3%[email], Mark Kuznicki wrote:
And there it goes again, can't go two sentences without proclaiming your nationality and/or your sexuality. Nicely demonstrates the point.
Chris
"The Crusher" wrote in message news:[email]...
It's also because Canadians want to ensure that they aren't confused for Americans.
I will give you something about the identity complex thing. Our struggle to define ourselves has often taken the form of what we are NOT - American.
But do you think that an American would leave insults to his country go unchallenged? Americans abroad are notoriously Amero-centric and ignorant of other cultures. I remember two Americans in a Heathrow airport bar being very indignant at not being treated with the appropriate respect and deference, "after all, we are Americans!" Like that meant something in and of itself and worthy of special treatment from all others in the countries they were visiting.
An American doesn't have to announce his citizenship...it's plainly obvious to all whenever he steps into a room. Which is why so many young American backpackers co-opt the Canadian Maple Leaf for their backpacks.
Canada irrelevant? If you measure relevance in terms of firepower, yeah you're probably right. But I can fall asleep soundly knowing that my government did not kill a single Iraqi child on questionable grounds. How's that hunt for WMD going?
On 5/18/03 10:29 PM, in article [email], "The Crusher" wrote:
you tell em! lol "Mark Kuznicki" wrote in message news:BAEDBDC9.40EB%[email]...
to
being
and
obvious
How's
[email],
On Mon, 19 May 2003 02:46:34 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
You probably think you're saying something noble, but in reality it's incredibly pathetic. A country that looks inward to define a national identity, and the best it can come up with is how much it hates its bigger, more successful neighbor.
I can think of a close analogy... I live in Boston, where the Red Sox haven't won a World Series since 1918. A two-hour drive away, the New York Yankees have dominated baseball like no other team. Red Sox fans seem to define themselves not by their own team, but by their hatred of the Yankees, who have overshadowed them for what seems like forever. Sometimes when the Red Sox are playing a team from another division, let's say the Kansas City Royals, I have heard the chant of "Yankees Suck! Yankees Suck!" rising from the crowd. And I have the same thought... How Sad.
On 5/18/03 11:24 PM, in article [email], "The Crusher" wrote:
I didn't claim it was noble - you seem to have missed that I conceded you the point. My point is that, despite our constant navel-gazing, Canadians offer an important perspective to you and your fellow Americans.
English Canadians are culturally closer to Americans than any other people on earth. We share pop culture, religious influences, language, economy and on and on. But we are not American. We don't identify as Americans. We don't get all patriotic and overconfident in the greatness of being American. We are on the outside looking in. Have you ever wondered what it would be like to live in someone else's skin for a day and look at yourself from the outside? It would probably be very illuminating and you would notice things about yourself that you never would otherwise.
Well, take advantage of the opportunity to look at yourself - talk to a Canadian. It's never been more important for all of us that you do.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 03:36:18 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Believe me, I do. I speak from experience; I work, and socialize with, dozens of Canadians. I consider many of them friends. In general, America likes Canada. Recent polls of Americans show that a large majority have positive opinions of Canada as an ally... many are aware of Canada's opposition, but don't really think it matters much in the big picture.
However, the same cannot be said of Canadians. I am continually surprised by the bitterness most of them hold for the USA. And these are Canadians that are working in America, relying on the US to make a living. The resentment is so pervasive that it's obvious that most Canadians have been indoctrinated (brainwashed?) about the US at a young age, presumably in school where they are taught that America is a bankrupt culture, uneducated, lazy, incestuous, <insert lie here>. I have yet to find a Canadian that respects the US.
On 5/18/03 11:58 PM, in article [email], "The Crusher" wrote:
Are you saying Canadians are bitter towards the American people or American government? Two very different things entirely, don't confuse them. Which I'm sure happens because Americans are indoctrinated and brainwashed at a young age to worship the flag and give the highest respect to the President, thus identifying obediently with their government when threatened, or even questioned, from the outside.
Yes, most Canadians are resentful of how America's government operates in the world. This doesn't come from school, it comes from reading newspapers and history and generally learning about how the world works. I don't know anybody who thinks that Americans are lazy or incestuous! Generally ignorant of the outside world, yes. Scared and feeling victimized since 9/11, probably. But it takes a very hardworking, industrious culture to attack preemptively any country it feels necessary and by doing so, undo many of the accepted standards of international law.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 04:11:59 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
Exactly! You're talking about the terrorists, right? I guess we agree on something.
Hmm, you seem to be criticizing them though, that doesn't make sense. I thought you really identified with these poor, downtrodden, innocent victims. They've done nothing wrong!
Well said. One big difference between Americans and Canadians is how defensive Americans get when their government is criticized, particularly during time of war. One of the Dixie Chicks make a comment about George W.--*BEFORE* the war even--and people burn their records, threaten their lives, and ban their songs from the airwaves. Land of the free? Maybe, as long as you equate blindly following your leaders with patriotism. It is odd. One moment, America promotes standing up for your opinions and free speech. The next moment, criticism of the government is made equivalent to flag burning and treason.
We Canadians have benefited and learned from our brother country south of the border. We have worked through a long held inferiority complex for years, and have gradually adapted some of the positive aspects of American patriotism for ourselves. It is true that we might put down America or others at times. Maybe even to build ourselves up, who knows. However anyone who is the least bit familiar with Canadians and their psyche will know that more than putting down others, Canada wrote the world book on self-depreciation. Many of the best satirical comedians in the world are Canadians, and they honed their skills by spoofing and poking fun at themselves. Most of the time you see someone "picking" on Canadians on movies or television, there is usually a Canadian responsible for it as a writer. Canadians leave for the U.S. because there's a big cash demand for this type of humour in the States. The U.S. has plenty of observational comics--something Canadian comics are behind in--like Carlin, Murphy, Seinfeld, Bernie Mac and the like. But satire? Canadian satirists are a dime-a-dozen up here, and you can't make a decent living--as we are constantly reminded when these same Canadian comics return home once in a while to pick on the home country a bit more.
If America could learn anything from Canada it is this: lighten up. If someone like Susan Sarandon, Michael Moore or Natalie Maines criticizes the president--who cares? I doubt that the world is waiting with bated breath to set foreign policy on the basis of what the Bull Durham cast or the Dixie Chicks have to say. If the Simpsons poke fun at the government and American policy--big deal. There's been a lot of people up here poking fun at George Bush during the Iraqi war. There's also been a lot of people poking fun at Jean Chretien, our government and military as well. However, you don't see anyone threatening to burn records or take people off the air for their views against the Canadian government (often the politicians will go on television *to* be picked on up here--pretty good sports, if not good politicians). As far as I know, nobody in Canada or the U.S. (except for Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders) threw their support behind Saddam Hussein. In fact, there were many people who supported the American and British troops once the war started, myself included. Just because you disagree with your best friend starting up a fight with an asshole, doesn't mean you want him to get his ass kicked once he's started swinging.
Bottom line, criticizing a leader doesn't equate to hating a country or its people. Do i think George W is an ass? Yes, I do. I also think Jean Chretien is an ass too. WhhhaaaAAAAA? How can i disagree with BOTH men, when their viewpoint of the war was opposite? I can disagree with Chretien's reluctance to support the coalition once the war was on, as well as disagree with his reluctance to push the U.N. harder towards taking a meaningful stand on Iraq. I can also criticize George W Bush, as I feel that his actions and motivation were guided from the beginning with the stubborn pig-headed belief that military confrontation on American terms was the only option. In terms of leadership, I think they both were pretty pathetic. And don't get me started on Chirac, how that man can shamelessly lie to the world is beyond understanding. However, as much disrespect I have for these "leaders", I have a lot of respect for both America and France, and would consider myself a very proud Canadian.
"Mark Kuznicki" wrote in message news:BAEDD1CF.4119%[email]...
[email],
American
Which
President,
newspapers
know
we're also free to criticize criticism!!! cool eh?
"Lionhart7" wrote in message news:QOdya.2028$[email]...
as
to
for
the
Dixie
American
George
at
see
Hussein.
you
its
well
was
shamelessly
a
a
even
in
On Mon, 19 May 2003 04:11:59 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
As if every Canadian is a sophisticate. If you don't think there are just as many morons in Canada (percentage-wise) as America, you're the moron.
That's the point Canadians don't seem to get: the USA is a HUGE, extremely diverse, country. Canadians love to portray all Americans as this single, ugly-American stereotype. The truth is, add up all the Americans that share your point of view, and you've got a number far greater than the entire citizenship of Canada. And that's assuming that all of Canada shares your opinion.
The most distinguishing characteristic of Canada, on the other hand, is how homogeneous public opinion is. A testament to cultural brainwashing. In all honesty though, it's easy to define a national identity when it's entirely based on waiting for your neighbor to do something, and then opposing it.
"Fonzie" wrote in message news:[email]...
I'm guessing you've never been to Quebec, huh?....
LOL!
Rightwingnuts wallow in their stupidity.
Fonzie wrote:
The relative moron quotient is debatable. At least we don't follow our leaders mindlessly each time they suck us into yet another war.
In any case, due to the media saturation, we DO know a hell of a lot more about the US than Americans know about Canada.
A purely idiotic claim. Just because we don't shoot anyone who disagrees with us, doesn't mean we don't disagree. Canada isn't as divisive a nation, due to the lesser influence of the capitalism which (in your country) has become a state religion. Sadly, this difference is being lost.
Considering American 'culture' is more pervasive here than Canadian, that is a ridiculous statement. We ARE culturally affected, but that effect is to be MORE like AMericans, not less.
This post does a good job of showing how very little you know about Canada.
This is true. Americans know less about Canada tha Canadians know about us. This only amplifies the small role Canada plays in American society.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
On Tue, 20 May 2003 10:16:33 GMT, RogerM wrote:
Here we go... it's one of my favorite Canadian fallacies: Canadians like to define America's ignorance by the lack of knowledge Americans have about Canada. They're very indignant and hurt about this.
I answer this with: Canadians are incredibly ignorant, because they know so little about Texas. Why should they, you ask? Well, there's just as many people in Texas as there are in all of Canada. Canada's GNP and Texas' state output are similar. So, let's give Americans a test about the history of Canada, and Canadians a test about the history of Texas, and compare scores. Or substitute Southern California, or even New York City, for Texas.
Here's the point: Canada is insignificant in American's daily lives, just as the goings-on in New York City are insignificant to the average guy in Medicine Hat. Get over yourself Canada, no one cares. Why should they?
The Crusher wrote:
News for you, Canada would win that competition.
Common courtesy, asshole. You want friendship and put nothing into the deal.
On Tue, 20 May 2003 22:40:38 GMT, RogerM wrote:
Mmmhmm. So, if I ask you who the Governor of Texas is, you will reply with the correct answer and swear on your mother's life that you didn't look it up on Google. I'll make the same vow that I knew Chretien is the PM of Canada. And God is watching you.
The Crusher wrote:
Nope. I don't know. I don't think it's Ann Richards anymore.
You win that one. Well done. But then, Cretien has been in the news quite a bit lately. Other than those rogue Democrats hiding in Oklahoma, what's been going on in Texas?
"The Crusher" <[email] > wrote in message news:[email]...
You have probably yet to find any non American that respects the US
"Nelson Coelho" wrote in message news:_25ya.354$[email]...
And he is unlikely to.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 09:34:05 -0400, "Nelson Coelho" wrote:
I find that every recent transplant to America, with the exception of Canadians, Western Europeans, and some Muslims, loves this country moreso than even the most ardent US patriot. They are truly grateful to live in the land of opportunity.
Canadians and Western Europeans, on the other hand, constantly complain, and are smug, condescending, and bitter. They will tell you that everything from food to health care is better in their country, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. Of course, the obvious response to such complaints is, "Why don't you just go back then, if it's so awful to live here?" They usually stammer some obligation concerning their job, school, or money... which of course they couldn't satisfy in their home country.
Canadian anti-Americanism is no different than European anti-Americanism. It's based on fear (of being marginalized) and jealousy (our economy, even in recession, is stronger than any other economy on earth). My advice is to just ignore it.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...
Why is it Americans ALWAYS think that other countries don't like them simply because they are jealous of them? ... How many times did we hear after Sept 11th. that one of the reasons they blew up the twin towers was because they were jealous of Americans?.
It's because it's an excuse, and it's a reflection of American arrogance. Instead of admitting to the real reasons why people hate them, American's come up with "they are Jealous"... It's really silly. It's all based on America self-importance and ignorance. It's always about why Americans think they are so much better than everyone else on the planet.
Joe Billionaire wrote:
Jealous, no. ENVIOUS, hell yes. if not, there wouldn't be so many people trying to get in.
On Tue, 20 May 2003 12:32:59 GMT, RogerM wrote:
Right... divide the number of people trying to gain entrance to the US by 1000, and you have the number of people trying to get into Canada. And a good number of these are terrorists who are leveraging Canada's look-the-other-way immigration policies, so they can backdoor into the US.
it's similar to the "church's" view on sex. if it feels good it must be bad. like chocolate, potato chips etc. i think people see america as this hedonistic hell hole that's gonna drag the world down and they feel like they have to stop it. so what it really boils down to is ignorance. ( i am of course referring to the third world and not canada) osama bin laden and all those freaks are scared of america because of religious guilt.
"RogerM" wrote in message news:[email]...
arrogance.
American's
think
trying
'falling in
religion.
You seem defensive. That indicates feelings of inferiority. In fact, every Canadian in this thread is overly defensive. Americans don't see themselves as "superior" to Canada. We don't think much of Canada at all. In our daily lives, the role of Canada is beyond insignificant.
I love Canada. It's good to have such a close friend share such a long border. This entire America/Canada thing has gotten totally out of hand, especially since it was predicated on an obvious JOKE in a Simpsons episode.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
Chris � wrote:
Militarily and economically, we ARE inferior.
Try living next door to a powerful country that has repeatedly manipulated the internal affairs of other sovereign nations. Not to mention the military examples.
Nice. So when American troops come north, you'll speak out against the invasion? Perhaps even fight on our side?
I have many friends who are seriously thinking about moving to Canada, which isn't run by a Shrub, doesn't have the rightwingnuts in charge, doesn't have an Attorney General who's busy trashing the Bill of Rights, etc.
Well... what continent do you live in?
Oh...that's right, North AMERICA.
Doesn't that technically make you an American?
Same goes for Mexico and South America, I suspect. :)
[email] (One tshirt) wrote in message news:...
Lame. In a relatively civilized and well-argued discussion, which is exceedingly rare for usenet, you just added the dumbest post.
Go to your room, the adults are talking.
ff
*Woosh*
Right over your head.
Oh well.
Sources close to Mark Kuznicki revealed on 18 May 2003 that the following message was delivered to alt.tv.simpsons:
I think this is an outdated (or becoming outdated) and somewhat exagerated stereotype. It's hard, especially in places like California, not to come into contact with people from other countries and their cultures.
Some people get like that when they drink. I think most of us down here would agree the guy was being asshole.
"Matt Miller" wrote in message news:[email]...
not
I would suspect a lot of Americans are now less proud of being American, post-Iraq debacle......
Your capacity for self-delusion must be amazing.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...
But......I'm right. That wasn't a thinly veiled anti-American whine, I've spoken to a lot of Americans who are less proud of their nationality these days. Despite what your Fox News might tell you, there are a lot of Americans who don't like what Bush is doing. It's not just the Dixie Chicks.....
I'm sure there are. It's a big country. Your own experiences not withstanding, those who share that particular opinion are a distinct minority.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
Exactly how do you know that?
About a dozen opinion polls which showed support for the war at it's lowest, 70%, at it's highest 77%. In a nation as dividied as this one when it comes to politics, that's pretty definitive evidence of a national consensus.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
Chris � wrote:
Definitive evidence that the American populace consists primarily of mindless sheep who fall in line every time the US decides to throw its weight around militarily.
[yawn]
If believing that gets you through the night, more power to ya.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
<snort>
The Repuglicans are always accusing others of their failings.
Maybe that capacity for self-delusion is greater than I thought.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
If the shoe fits ... ;)
Starting with the Dixie Chicks
I see some piss-ant 3rd worlder with a rag on his head cursing America every time I turn on the news. We shrug it off.
A character on the Family Guy says, "Canada sucks" and Canada goes into a frothing rage.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Ugly American.
Mark Kuznicki wrote:
It's far too soon to tell. Evidence is still being planted.
Right, the search could take years, or at least until after 11/2004.
I don't think you've noticed, but they tend to do that for people of EVERY nationality/ethnicity. It's not just Canada.
who cares anymore...the whole point is Americans got threatened by a CARTOON. and u think Canada's insecure....... "Super Mukki" wrote in message news:[email]...
In news:ba9ih0$2qa$[email], ME wrote:
It's a big country. You can find people here that are threatened by baskets full of cute kittens and are willing to sue to prove it. I would't call it insecurity, probably idiocy is a better word.
One thing America has on the rest of the world is that as much as there are groups in foriegn countries that hate us (etc.) there are even more virulent crazies living right here. We are really our biggest problem.
So, in regards to the 'rest of the world' vs. the US, I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I say: Meh.
Chris
Notice they love Canada so much that they get the F out ASAP. I figure the Canadian comedians like Myers & Short were driven out because they had a sense of humor.
The big $$ are in the US, no mystery there.
Sources close to The Crusher revealed on 18 May 2003 that the following message was delivered to alt.tv.simpsons:
I don't see what's offensive about it. I thought it was funny.
Somebody claiming to be Mark Kuznicki wrote in news:BAEDA641.39D7%[email]:
And I presume you also think that the representation of Canada in "The Bart Wants What It Wants" was also valid? :-) How about if they show fanatic Francophones firebombing stores in Montreal that have "too much" English-language signage? :-)
With all due respect, this "people of conscience" phrase really drives me up a wall. You see, I'm a Libertarian, and I'd argue that the high level of government intervention that has made Canada and Western Europe what they are has been on the whole quite bad for individual liberty. I've suggested to a number of Canadians I've met that it's a human right to take care of one's own needs, including paying for one's own health care; it follows that being forced into a government health care monopoly is a violation of this right. And this argument always seems to piss Canadians off -- they argue with some sort of "moral superiority" argument about the virtues of a government health care monopoly.
(FWIW, I believe the problems with the US health care system stem largely from the tax laws which make people expect that somebody else will be paying for their health insurance -- if your boss pays for your health insurance, it's not taxed; if your boss gives you the money to buy health insurance, the money is taxed -- and the warping of the market that inevitably follows when you have price opacity. It's also made it nigh on impossible for the self-employed to get health insurance.)
Again, as a Libertarian, I'd argue that this is simply another example of journalists being generally lazy. If you look at the California electricity crisis of a few years back, far too many journalists simply accepted and disseminated Governor Gray Davis' contention that the crisis was the fault of "deregulation", and couldn't be bothered to explore whether there was even a real deregulation in California at all. (Retail rates were capped, there were limits on where energy could be purchased, and IIRC limits on the length of contracts to buy energy at a given price. That sounds more like perestroika than deregulation to me.)
You are quite right, however, to say the the Simpsons have no qualms about skewering any political position. Including us Libertarians and others who no longer support either the Republicans or the Democrats -- see "Citizen Kang" in THOH7. And I find the third party scene in "Citizen Kang" quite funny.
Now, I should point out that I really disliked the ending. But I wasn't thinking about anything political at the time. I didn't particularly like the whole third act, since it seemed forced to me, and I really dislike most musical numbers since they don't serve any purpose to the plot. ("Checking In" from "City of New York vs. Homer Simpson", the musical in "A Streetcar Named Marge", and "Rock Me, Dr. Zaius" from "A Fish Called Selma" are exceptions.)
Exactly. It wasn't funny. Just singing "Oh, Canada" Was it supposed to be funny? Like, "Look, isn't Canada a big joke?" If so, that's just as stupid as shoving an agenda on people.
On Mon, 19 May 2003 01:06:13 GMT, Mark Kuznicki wrote:
You're missing one important thing: it was completely unfunny. Your political leanings aside, there was not one laugh at the end of that episode. A new nadir for the Simpsons.
I thought it was hilarious if a tad bit dated (would have been funnier 6 weeks ago). It was clearly a shot at the pro-war/anti-war debate which has polluted every aspect of the mass media. I'm utterly shocked that those who were pro-war (that includes me) took this seriously and as a result felt insulted, and I'm flabbergasted that the anti-war or anti-American sentiment took it as a serious confirmation of their ideals.
It was a JOKE, folks. They were making fun of Canada, not insulting America.
LMAO
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
Really? Interesting interpretation.
It was a gag. LMAO.
Gag. Gimmick. Joke. LMFAO.
"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.
True.
How can you determine what "most people of conscience" around the world feel? What defines a person of conscience? Their ethical choices, right? Here are your choices. You can let a murderous tyrant continue to bring hell to the people of Iraq or you can choose to stop him. What's it going to be? As a person of conscience the decision should be easy. A man walks into a crowded bus station. He starts beating the piss out of people. You’re the biggest guy in the place. What do you do? Something tells me your hands would never leave your pockets. Unfortunately, there's a responsibility that comes with being the strongest country.
The Simpsons are not part of any liberal agenda. However, as sure as there is a conservative agenda, there's a liberal agenda. Ultra liberals and ultra conservatives, two sides of the same coin. You're both close minded, lacking in depth of thought, and unwilling to cross the line under any circumstances.
Canada's pretty cool. Got no problem with Canada. Love The Tragically Hip.
CANADA,Eh! Home of Jillian Barberie, ya know the weather girl from Fox NFL and Good Day Live!
Okay, I too am a proud, RIGHT WING canadian. We first off don't all approve of the commies in Ottawa refusing to fight the war. Secondly, Marge waved a fleur de lis as well as the maple leaf because it was this Canadian swimmer who did that, which is appaling to all non-Quebecers because do Americans ever wave their state's flag? Hell, do I ever wave the ol' Albertan flag?
Oh and go Canada.
"Mark Kuznicki" wrote in message news:BAEDA641.39D7%[email]...
national
represent
a
government
Stephen Rennick wrote:
So now people who oppose an idiotic and useless war are commies? Where did you get that bizarre notion.
"Exatron" wrote in message news:[email]...
Alberta.
You mean, bizarre nation?
evan
[email] (Park Luck) wrote in message news:...
in bizarro world.
You might want a Canadian version of:
that was the best episode all around....from the john lemmon, (paul mc ice tea, orange harrison, and mango starr), to the canadian anthem......and "war is not the answer.....except to all of america's problems." u guys are just jealous because they didnt sing your anthem...j/k
That episode sucked and the Canada thing just topped it off!
The funny thing is that while Canada does get considerable time on The Simpsons (though it's not always "positive") we never saw last week's episode.
Global airs Survivor, and The Simpsons, here in Canada. Last week, the finale of Survivor was on Sunday, bumpting The Simpsons off the schedule. Unless they aired it at some odd time, without announcing it, Global has not aired last week's episode. Certainly, I haven't seen it.
I'm a tad surprised that nobody mentioned it last week. But perhaps I wasn't paying attention because the episode was not aired.
Michael
"Fruity Nutcake" wrote in message news:[email]...
The original plan was to push a conservative agenda, but Apu was not available to be named an enemy combatant and be thrown in prison without being told why.
You're in luck though-check out this sneak preview of next week's episode!
Homer: Hey, Flanders, how's it going?
Flanders: Well, the Leftorium went outta buissness and the state can't afford to keep Rod's school open any more, and they kinda forclosed my our house and now we're livin' on the street.
Homer: Gee, you don't say...
Flanders: What're we gonna do, Homer?
Homer: I keep TELLING you, the tax cuts will fix everything. Now will you please stop sleeping on my lawn? The dog needs a place to poop, you know!
Flanders: He used to poop in my lawn. He's doing it right now, actually.
Homer: Hey, he is! Ha, ha, I sure trained him good!
Flanders: Uh, Homer, do you think you could-
Homer: Tax cuts. Gotta run! *runs off*
-Wyvern
"Wyvern" wrote in message news:...
Guess Ned shouldn't have given all that moeny he won at the WNBA game away. Should have kept some for a rainy day.
Oh and someone mnetioned how we Americians go on and on about the Mircle on Ice. This was and still is a big deal. We were not suspose to win one game in the 80 Olympics. I believe that the Candians were suspose to win in 2002 (or whenever it was).
IT'S 23 years later for christ's sake. give it a rest...
"StefanW" wrote in message news:[email]...
news:...
episode!
our
you
know!
"joe gumball" wrote in message news:...
But we beat the Soviets in direct competition! Politically it was and still is a big deal. If the United States came from nowhere to beat Sweden, France or Canada 23 years ago we wouldn't be talking about it today. But we beat the only other superpower in direct competition. The only other direct competition we had with the Soviets at the time was the space race, which at that time was basically a draw. Additionally, the attitude in America, according to some historians, was that Americans were growing further disenchanted with the government, the economy and had lost that pride we are so famous for having. The victory over the communists restored some of our faith that brought us through high gas prices, high inflation, and the Iran Hostage crises. This is a lot to place on a single event, but if you look at the coarse of other nations in their path to success, they will have similar victories in other disciplines such as science and discovery or even the arts. I think its approperiate for America to have it's vistory tied to a sports event.
"Fruity Nutcake" wrote in message news:[email]...
Best episdode ever. As a neither a Canadian or an American and therefore Impartial i liked the episode a lot.
The Simpsons writers are very astute and seem to be more aware of how America is percieved by other nations.
Another fine moment was Apu's refence to the aping of indeginous species that have been wiped out lol
g0ldstarr
Fruity Nutcake wrote in message news:...
Three of the Simpsons' writers are Canadian, and Matt Groening's father was born in Montreal.
The end of this episode may be viewed as a political statement (pretty much every Simpsons episode contains at least one or two political statements... few as blatent as this particular episode) though it may also be viewed as comedy -- if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at?
Basically "The Simpsons" as a series pokes fun at society (mostly American society) as a whole. At first glance it appears to be promoting poor behavior (lying, stealing, cheating, greed, negligence, mischief) but one soon comes to realize that there are consequences to this behavior (getting caught, losing respect, being hated, suffering, etc). There certainly is an underlying moral message for those that choose to see it.
The Simpsons are a typical American family living in a typical American town with all the stereotypical personalities in the community, exaggerated of course -- comedy depends on exaggeration.
The ironic part is that while the rest of the world realizes this and laughs at "those silly Americans" much the same way white people laugh at a black stand-up comic exaggerating stereotypical black behavior, a great deal of Americans have failed to realized that the joke is on them.
As the seasons have passed, some of the humor in the Simpsons has been "dumbed down", more exaggerated and made more blatently obvious in an attempt to make viewers realize this. If you review the series you will have noticed that Homer has becoming more and more of a bumbling fool, Lisa more and more politically opinionated and outspoken, Bart (and Homer) having less of a conscience, and even Marge has been losing wisdom and becoming more and more of a typical mother figure who cannot operate outside of her designated role.
All of the once subtle humor has become over-exaggerated seemingly for the purpose of getting the point across to the thick-skulled American audience, and it has taken the full in-your-face blatency of this episode to break through and get a response.
Now that the wake-up call has been heard, maybe some Americans will catch some of the less obvious messages... probably not, but maybe.
On 19 May 2003 20:05:48 -0700, [email] (Derek Snider) wrote:
I was with you right up until you revealed your real agenda. Everything you said about the decline of the Simpsons was dead-on, and obvious to anyone who's been a fan of the show since the beginning.
In the interest of full disclosure, please reveal the enlightened country that you come from, where all citizens are witty and erudite, and spend their days exchanging bon mots at the Algonquin Round Table.
Joe Billionaire wrote in message news:...
I had no "agenda", but as you can see there's a fine line to cross to upset an American. "Silly Americans" wasn't upsetting, but "thick-skulled" was. Of course I wasn't saying that all Americans were thick-skulled, but it's a known fact that everyone is "thick-skulled" to things that pertain directly to them. People are quick to point out the shortcomings of others without realizing that they share the exact same shortcomings.
Yes, I'm Canadian... so what? That only means that I am better able to view the American fun-poking of the Simpsons because it is harder to see it from the inside.
Most fans may have "gotten" the sublety of the earlier shows, but this was before The Simpsons had such a wide audience. To capitalize on a larger audience, you have to be able to reach the lowest common denominator, and that means dumbing it down.
On 20 May 2003 07:58:30 -0700, [email] (Derek Snider) wrote:
Dumbing it down all the way to, say, Canadian level?
Joe Billionaire wrote in message news:...
I wouldn't say that there was a significant difference in intelligence between Americans and Canadians, although few Americans are wise beyond their borders. America goes to great lengths to ensure that everyone else knows plenty about American culture (especially thanks to Hollywood), but Americans know little of the rest of the world.
As I previously stated, some things are much more obvious from the outside. Many lessons can be learned from peaceful nations.
American culture these days is made up of a mixture of cultures from aroung the world (especially Hollywood). Most American movies today contain at least one Hong Kong style action scene. Many of the Hong Kong directors such as John Woo have immigrated here. (And let's face it, many former Canadians are responsible for much of Hollywood's output these days.) Most of tv is flooded with Japanese "anime". "World music" is also a trend in America these days.
Then there's the food. Many new immigrants here have introduced Americans to Armenian, Vietnamese, Korean, Thai, and Indian food.
Which peaceful nations would those be? You'd have to exclude most of Europe, Asia, Africa, etc., since they have a very belligerent history.
[email] (Markc65) wrote in message news:...
Certainly there may be some outside influence, but it is mostly superficial. Little of it has to do with anything that could remotely be referred to as "culture". A "Hong Kong style action scene" does not educate Americans about Hong Kong culture.
Americanized foreign culture leads to biased stereotypes. There are still Americans that believe that most Canadians live in igloos, survive on maple syrup, strong beer and moose meat, and end every sentence with "eh?"
Should we believe that most rural Americans are accurately depicted by the movie Deliverance?
Canada, Switzerland, Sweden, etc... there are many peaceful countries. True, they aren't usually the countries that end wars, but they certainly aren't the ones that start them.
If we're discussing rightwingnuts, yes. It's part of the GOP's "Southern strategy".
The same could be said that America's influence on other countries is also superficial. Isn't it just as superficial if an European musician is influenced by music created in America, say like Jazz or Rock? Wouldn't Django Rienhardt and The Beatles be just as superficial as an American movie influenced by Hong Kong movies? There seems to be a double standard here.
And speaking of culture. 1. There are plenty of foreign movies, operas, music and television shows that play here in the States.
2. Much American culture is created by foreign expatriates such as movie directors Tony and Ridley Scott, Alfred Hitchcock, Charlie Chaplin (England), Paul Verhoeven (Netherlands), Ang Lee (Taiwan), Billy Wilder, Fritz Lang (Austria), and Michael Curtiz (Hungary); Actors such as Cary Grant, Greta Garbo, Ingrid Bergman, Mel Gibson, etc. MGM mogul Louis B. Mayer immigrated from Russia.
Then there are the Canadians. Most of the cast of SCTV and Kids in the Hall now live in Los Angeles. As well as actors Jason Priestly, Jim Carrey, Dan Aykroyd,Peter Jennings, etc. Ren and Stimpy was created by a Canadian -- John Kricfalusi -- and originally animated at a Canadian animation studio -- Carbunkle -- not in Korea like The Simpons. (Many of the Simpsons staff are also from Canada.) Warner Bros. studio was started by three Canadian brothers.
Plus many American institutions are now foreign owned. The Japanese corporation Sony bought the former MGM studios. Chevrolets are now assembled in Canada. Fox network is owned by an Australian.
So when you complain of "American culture" the chances are good that it was made by someone born outside of the USA.
You mean they don't!? Most of our stereotypes of Canadians come from Canadians themselves. Shows like SCTV and "Kids in the Hall" were imported here, along with movies like "Strange Brew". Many of the Canadian jokes in the Simpsons were usually written by a Canadian.
People choose to believe what they want. Most other countries think of Americans in stereotypical terms anyway. SPY magazine had a funny article years ago called "The Ugly European", about European vacationers and their rude behavior and assumptions while visiting New York City.
I don't know how stereotypes evolve, but just about everyone has them. It's not just Americans who believe in them. I knew Japanese people who spoke ill of Koreans, Koreans who hated the Chinese, Italians who disparaged all things French, Irishmen who wanted to kill the English and so on and on. Perhaps many stereotypes Americans have of foreign nations are brought into the country by the foreigners themselves?
I don't know what countries the "etc." implies, but let's look at the three examples you provided. Are they really that peaceful?
Canada has been involved in many wars (usually fighting for England); North African war in 1899, WWI, WWII (in fact Canada was involved in WWII before America was), the Korean War, etc. True they haven't usually started them, unless you count the wars against the indigenous people who originally lived in what is now known as Canada by English settlers. http://www2.worldbook.com/features/features.asp?feature=explorers&page=htm l/impact_canada.html&direct=yes
Sweden fought many wars with tzarist Russia in the 1700s. It was neutral during the two world wars but sold iron ore to the Nazis for their weapon industry. http://www.utb.boras.se/uk/se/projekt/history/articles/ww2/ww23.htm
Switzerland has remained neutral since 1815. They did have some trouble from the French Republic, who invaded Switzerland in 1798 and established the Helvetic Republic, until Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo by the British and Prussians.
But from http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/switzerland/history.htm comes this disturbing news: "In WW II, however, Switzerland played a more insidious role as an amenable money launderer for Nazi Germany. Switzerland's quiet anti-Semitism included shutting its borders to Jewish refugees and forcibly repatriating many of those who escaped Nazi-occupied Europe, in full knowledge of the fate which awaited them."
Well, so much for remaining neutral.
Canada and America have nearly the same dirty history in regards to the major wars and the treatment of the native Indians, so I don't think the former should be a guide for the latter.
And Sweden and Switzerland were monarchies until 1809 and 1848 (after a three week civil war) respectively. They became federal democracies years after the USA did in 1789.
Markc65" wrote in message news:[email]...
years
It's not
of
many
by
Stereotypes have to start somewhere...
It's been my experience though that most people who hold stereotypes against people of other nations or against nations themselves have never visited the nation...
Personally, my beef with America lies with it's government, not it's people (Though I hate to say it, but about 60% of American's that I've met have been "stereotypical" Americans... the other 40% though have been great people, but those numbers are probably biased because I've probably met plenty of great American's who I just didn't know where American)
three
North
lived in
Ask the Dutch who drove out the Nazi's.
On the subject of the native wars, most of it was fought as proxy wars of the french-english war, as some tribes allied with the French, some with the English... the native troops weren't as well "disciplined" or "trained" as the professional white troops... meaning they were much better at waging war in most terrain.
Actually, there's one quite dirty bit of history where a race of natives (The Beothuck) were hunted and completely wiped out by settlers... having been isolated from the main land by living on the island of Newfoundland, the beothuks were quite unique... unfortunately, european settlers didn't take well to them, and they were completely and utterly annihilated... an extremely dark event.
major
Canadian treatment of it's natives was better then American treatment, but still absolutely horrible.
three
the
Don't forget the fact that America's democratic system came about because of the French...
On Fri, 23 May 2003 01:05:23 -0230, "Chris Fewer" wrote:
Way to submarine your whole argument. Just out of curiousity, what percentage of Canadians do you consider "stereotypical" Canadians?
If you're unclear on what the stereotype is, I'll gladly fill you in. Here's a clue: "noble", "intellectual" and "polite" are not part of it. That is the stereotype Canadians have invented about themselves, which is completely against the rules of stereotype-creation.
"The Crusher" wrote in message news:[email]...
What the hell are you talking about? I'm saying that about 60% of the American's that I have met, in person, have been the stereotypical loud-mouth asshole know-it-all American. I'm not saying it's repersenative of the country. I'm saying those are the people I've met.
On Fri, 23 May 2003 11:17:22 -0230, "Chris Fewer" wrote:
And I submit that 100% of Canadians I have met fit a certain stereotype. (Not surprising, as the US is a much bigger and more diverse country). So the question is, do you want me to describe that stereotype, or would it dash your notion that Canadians are somehow more intellectual, more polite, etc than Americans?
"The Crusher" wrote in message news:[email]...
repersenative
I really don't see your point...
The trouble with stereotypes is that they set up a preconceived notion of what that particular ethnic group is supposed to act like. It takes a great deal of effort to see past the stereotype to the person underneath.
I'll give you an example. Suppose you pass a bar and see a Dutchman stumble out of the doors, obviously drunk. You would think nothing of it because it is not a preconceived stereotype of the Dutch. But if you passed that same bar and saw an Irishman stumble out drunk you would probably think, "How typical." It is because you've been told that the Irish drink a lot, so you notice it more when you see an Irish person who conforms to this preconceived notion.
The same with that 60% of stereotypical Americans you've run into. Like you've guessed before, you probably didn't notice the Americans who didn't conform to this stereotype.
Well, not always. Somebody had to run into a rude French waiter before the stereotype was invented.
Well, it seems more like it's six one way, half a dozen the other. Considering the that America is a bigger and more populated country I'm sure there were more atrocities committed against it's native population. But if we take into consideration the percentages of both countries' populations and history, I think both Canada and the USA are almost equal in their treatment of their native populations. Besides the original argument was that America should look to Canada as an example of a peaceful nation, to which I made the point that Canada exterminated it's indigenous populace and fought in most of the same wars (WWI, WWII, Korea) as America did.
Do you mean because France helped America against Britian in the Revolutionary war? Well they certainly helped, but I don't think that means that America's democratic system came about solely because of the French.
"Markc65" wrote in message news:[email]...
what
deal of
stumble out
not
and
It
more
you've
conform to
No, I'm simply stating that of the 100% of people who've told me that they were American's, 60% fell into the category of "stereotypical" Americans.
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but
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Canada did not exterminate it's indigenous populace, I have no idea where you've heard this. One race was exterminated, and only on what is now Canadian soil, it was long before Canada even began to exist.
of
Revolutionary
America's
What I meant was French created a democratic republic before America existed, the American democratic republic is based somewhat on the French model.
In news:bamqts$8vf$[email], Chris Fewer wrote:
And they say that Americans don't know anything about history.
For most of the 17th century France was run by wacky & absolute nobility. It should be noted that these monarchs allied themselves with the US and against Britain during the American Revolution.
To summarize:
US declares indepence - 1776 Constitution created - 1787 France recognizes the US - 1783 French revolution - 1789
The French revolution didn't result in some peachy-keen democracy either. Their provisional republic crashed and burned. Then a dictatorship and a bloody mess called the 'Reign of Terror' took its place. And not long after Napolean marched in and, well you should know this part by now (ahem...Napoleaonic wars).
[sarcasm]Some great democracy the French had going there. Really made those in the US jealous and eager to model themselves on there friends across the pond.[/sarcasm]
Here's a little quote from www.encyclopedia.com:
"The American Revolution had a great influence on liberal thought throughout Europe. The struggles and successes of the youthful democracy were much in the minds of those who brought about the French Revolution, and most assuredly later helped to inspire revolutionists in Spain's American colonies."
There's a reason the US is called the first democracy.
Chris
Chris --
That was an excellent bit on the history of American and French democracy.
Here's the only sentence I would disagree with...
I would say that Athens of ancient Greece was the first democracy.
On Sat, 24 May 2003 01:33:10 -0230, "Chris Fewer" wrote:
You know, I think you're on to something; stereotypes can be such useful shortcuts. Come to think of it, almost all of the Canadians I meet are accurately characterized by the Mackenzie brothers: drunk and stupid.
I don't know what you're hinting at here. America did not exterminate it's indigenous populatace, either. It murdered many and stole thier land (similar to Canadian history), but they are still around living on reservations.
France had it's revolution AFTER the American Revolution. It was a monarchy before that. America had in place it's third President, Thomas Jefferson, by the time the French Revolution happened, and he got in trouble with his fellow Americans for supporting the French Revolution because it was so bloody.
On 25 May 2003 02:32:49 GMT, [email] (Markc65) wrote:
Canadians are not going to let actual facts get in the way of their jihad to prove that Americans are murderous, arrogant, warmongering, obnoxious bastards. You can prove them wrong time and time again... it doesn't matter. Their inferiority complex knows no bounds.
Well, then how do you explain the fact that The Simpsons was a hit with Americans before it was "dumbed down"? It's obvious that Americans got the "once subtle humor" when the show first aired.
And it was these earlier episodes that would "get a response" from various groups than did the later ones. (The Simpsons used to be considered quite controversial once. Even President Bush the Elder spoke out against it in those years.)
"Markc65" wrote in message news:[email]...
those
Women wearing pants was once considered controversial.
Now where would J'Lo be without them?