Old fans and young fans [very long]

I heard people talking about the theory that the old-time-fans (aka lousy complainers) have simply lost their sense of humour when they grew up and that they are now bitter people who have nothing else to do than telling everyone how much the show sucks now.

I don�t think that�s true. The show has changed and that�s a fact that nobody would deny. You can argue whether it has become much worse or much better or whether it is still as good as ever but it has definitely changed. I�d say when the old-time-fans (my group) grew older and became adults they didn�t lose their sense of humour but developed another and more "wise" sense of humour, a humour that isn�t connected with slapstick and dirty words but with subtlety and satire.

When you�re a kid or a teenager you appreciate the fun in the show and you can find such fun even in the current seasons and you can laugh out loud when a dog sniffs at Homer�s butt. But when you grow older you probably start to notice that simple and empty slapstick can be stupid and annoying if there�s no balance to deeper stuff and - believe me - this moment of realization will happen to many of the younger people who consider the show now as better than or as good as ever. Someday you�ll start to notice that the plotlines are a chaos and meaningless row of jokes and that slapstick isn�t or wasn�t the most important thing in the show. It won�t happen to all of you but certainly to some.

Have the old-time-viewers lost their sense of humour and became bitter complainers? No. I think they have found a new sense of humour (the sense for intelligent humour and thus maybe the better sense) and noticed what�s wrong with recent episodes.

Let�s try to have a look into what people of different ages think about different seasons (old and new) and why they can�t come together until the younger ones grow up. What would a new twelve-year-old fan think about the show and about seasons 2 and 12? Maybe something like that:

Season 2: what a crappy and boring season. There�s no fun at all. It�s like one of those boring real life sitcoms where people talk and cry and talk and cry. When I watch cartoons I don�t want to see stuff like that. I�m a kid, I want fun. Why do they cry and talk about life and meaning of life? It�s nothing but a slapstick cartoon and thus I want to laugh. I want Homer. He�s crazy. He�s funny. They talk about stuff in season 2 I don�t understand. They talk about boring nerd stuff. We see Homer not enough and he�s not funny enough. He�s not screaming in pain enough. We see Lisa too much. I don�t like Lisa. She�s not funny, she�s like a boring adult. Why are they so serious? Why do they refer to boring adult literature or movie stuff or whatever I don�t understand? That�s stuff like in school and school sucks. I don�t know what to think about season 2 so I just think what everyone in school thinks - it sucks and we all hate it. Why does stuff happen the way it happens in real life? It�s a cartoon like Bugs Bunny or Will. E. Coyote. Where is the nonsense, where are the magical robots from another dimension who come to torture Homer? That would be funny. Season 2 sucks.

Season 12: I love season 12. There�s a lot of fun and we see the crazy crazy Homer so often. He is a stupid and funny yellow cartoon man who has his own show. Homer is always mean and angry and he does lots of weird stuff and nobody makes him responsible for doing weird stuff. When I grow up I want to be a mean guy like Homer and mock and push people all the time. They also mock the stupid Lisa and even beat her up. Lousy nerd. I go to school and we have nerds there. I laughed out loud many times in season 12. I�m not allowed to watch "South Park" but I watch "The Simpsons" and I hear and learn many dirty words there. Show me your boobs. Skinner and Krabappel have sex on a table. A panda is hurting Homer in a way I don�t understand but it�s certainly cool. Hehehe. I laugh and the guys at school laugh. They even have now talking monkeys in the show. That is so superfunny. Season 12 is also funny as they mock lousy adults and complaining dudes who like the old crappy episodes. Those old guys know nothing about fun. They stink and I�ll tell them how much they stink in a certain newsgroup. I love season 12. I�m young and my opinion counts more.

What would an older fan (older than 20) who�s with she show since the very beginning think about seasons 2 and 12. Maybe something like that:

Season 2: what a great season. There�s a lot of meaning and message and a subtle intelligence that no other cartoon show can offer. You watch the episodes and you can enjoy the well written stories where various storylines merge in a professional way to tell you a tale of satire and moral in a very funny way. You can laugh during the show and you can think for hours after the show. There�s a never-again-reached balance between emotions, darkness of real life, lots of fun and great satire. It�s a cartoon but most of it seems to be a parable about real life in America and that�s one of the things that makes it so great and unique. The writers also respect the characters (though they are only drawings) and they give depth and dignity to the characters. The characters are almost like real persons, like people you can meet in your hometown or neighborhood. Intelligence and thought-provoking stories are part of every episode. Was that a Rembrandt painting in the background? Did they play a tune by Mozart as background music? Was someone quoting Poe? So what is stoicism? How can a falling tree make a sound if nobody�s there to hear it? Is the filth of Michelangelos David the same filth as cartoon violence or are they both a form of art or free speech? How can parents force their child to smile if it experiences a terrible sadness and childhood angst (that brings us back to season 1)? Season 2 is the best season ever, a masterpiece of depth and art and - yes - something like the holy grail of cartoon intelligence and subtlety. I love season 2 and can�t live without it.

Season 12: what a piece of crap. What are the writers thinking? It�s nothing but an insult to the long-time-fans and to the history of the show. What right do we have to complain? What do they owe us? I�ll tell you. The old-time-fans where the ones that made the show big at the beginning and now the (mostly) new writers consider them as nothing but a lousy bunch of nerds which they can mock all the time. That stinks. What do they call story today? A bunch of jokes randomnly thrown together, no storyline, no real plot. What do they call satire today? A piece of slapstick with some dirty words and references and a kind of low-brow-humour for 10 year olds and "Dude, Where�s my Car" fans. The storylines are a chaos, there�s often no strucure, no subplot, no merging plots. The intelligence and subtlety of the early years (and season 7) is gone, fart&burp humour rules the show. How can you make satire about real life in bizarro world? Fish from outer space, blood, violence, disgusting stuff, monkeys, crayons in the brain, the Simpsons as bunch of comedy clowns in Africa. All of that is lightyears away from the great satire the show was meant to be. Moreover, it�s not simply a show getting worse, it�s like throwing mud on all the achievements of former seasons. They took the show and their characters and flushed them down a toilet. Season 12 (most of it) sucks and that�s for sure.

They can�t come together, the expectations are too different. Maybe the 12-year-old will notice one day what�s wrong with the show and when he reads what he said in a young age he�ll probably say "What the hell was I thinking back then?" Maybe not. Many people (even the older ones) never see the problem but consider the show as sitcom that makes them laugh. That�s the only thing the writers try to make these days but that�s IMO wrong but they don�t realize it. There are various reasons for the decline (new group of viewers, general change of style during the years, bad Scully influence, the competetion with "South Park" etc etc) but there�s just one result:

Most of the unique things that made the show great are now dead, what remains is a mostly empty sitcom and slapstick vehicle for blood, violence, monkeys and low-level-humour.

If you consider the show as nothing but a bunch of stupid drawings of bizarre cartoon clowns you can still enjoy it and laugh about almost every new episode but if you consider the show as more - as the lost holy grail of cartoon intellectualism and satire - the new seasons are hell. And that�s probably something we all should think about.

Chris

In , on Saturday 25 August 2001 07:04, Chris Pfeiler at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

i didn't read any of this.

Dear:
 [X] Clueless Newbie         [X] Lamer       [X] AOLer
 [ ] "Me too" er             [ ] Pervert     [ ] Geek
 [ ] Spammer                 [ ] Nerd        [ ] Elvis
 [ ] Fed                     [X] Freak       [ ] Scientologist
 [ ] Scammer                 [X] Dumbass     [X] Pre-teen

You Are Being Flamed Because: [ ] You posted binaries in pieces LESS than 5000 lines [ ] You posted something asking for warez sites [X] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply [X] You have the mannerisms of a dickless 10-year old. [ ] You continued a long, stupid thread [ ] You started an off-topic thread [ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message [X] You are a blatently obvious troll [ ] You posted pretending to be someone famous (See "troll" above) [ ] You replied to the above message type believing it was someone famous [ ] You said "me too" to something [X] You suck [X] Your sig/alias/server sucks [ ] You posted a phone-sex ad [ ] Your ad sucks anyway since nobody asked for it [ ] You posted a stupid pyramid money-making scheme and claimed it was legal [ ] I think you might be a fed [X] Spoke to an intellectual superior with disrespect. [ ] You spam [ ] You posted in ElItE CaPiTaLs because you think that makes you kEwL [ ] You didn't do anything specific, but appear to be so generally worthless that you are being flamed anyway

To Repent, You Must:

[X] Stop masterbating for a week [X] Give up your AOL account [ ] Be Senator Exon's love slave for a month. [X] Tell your Mommy you've been a bad boy [X] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor [X] Actually post something relevant [ ] Read the FAQ [X] Be the guest of honor in alt.flame for a month [X] Apologize profusely. [X] Play the game Beyond the Beyond from start to finish.

In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[X] Blow me [X] Get a life [X] Never post again [X] Age 10 more years before you post again [ ] I pity your dog [X] Go to hell [X] Yer momma's so fat/stupid/ugly that etc... [X] Take your shit somewhere else [X] Get fucked, you pathetic loser [X] Learn to post or fuck off [ ] All of the above

END FLAME

What the hell? Is this bitter old people flame the young rascals? How old are you guys? Chris, you sound like a crotchety, old person:"These kids today don't understand anything etc., etc.". Were you trying to get a rise out of people? Well, it worked on me.

That's what's wrong with the world today. The adults cannot get it through their heads that kids can be intelligent and have opinions. I'm 18 and I love every single season of the Simpsons, because it makes me laugh and it makes me think. The satire is(surprise) my favorite thing about the show and has been since I started watching OFF.

This elitist crap that you posted was a complete waste of my time. I mean, I have respect for people 80 years old and above, because they've been through life(unless they spent their life loafing on a couch or something). Otherwise, you still have a lot to learn about life as do I. These bizarre generalizations that you made do nothing for our society.

Besides, the people who watch Bugs Bunny *generally* do not watch the Simpsons.

I think younger people deserve more credit. And Ozar, what the hell was that about? How do you know Jesus is young and why did you go after him for no good reason?

Just my two cents. Let the flame begin.

~Amanda

"Ozar" wrote in message news:[email]...

I never tried to anger somebody or to generalize too much. If I did I�m sorry. It wasn�t my purpose to generalize but maybe it�s my main mistake and I always do it. Maybe people just misunderstand me.

I used the example with a 12-year-old (as young as possible) so that no one of the posters here who are 14 or 15 or older would feel insulted or angry. Maybe I still choose the wrong words and insulted people.

Younger people *do* deserve more credit and younger people *do* deserve more intelligent stories with satire and real plots. That was exactly what I meant. They deserve it but the writers don�t give it to them. They give them a bunch of slapstick and sex jokes and thus raise a new generation of fans who have often no possibility to learn something about the real show or even to compare old episodes with new. The stuff I said about the possible opinion of a 12-year-old was made up and it should be a warning that the writers are responsible for raising a group of young fans who don�t know what the show really means. I used as usual the wrong words.

On the other hand, I don�t think I�m really completely wrong. If you go today into some school and ask the kids (say aged between 10 and 12) what their favourite season is and what season they don�t like and why they like current fun stuff more than old stuff you�ll probably get some answers like the ones I made up. That�s no simple generalizing but that�s IMO what would happen.

There are of course many intelligent kids who really understand the show but is it the majority? Is it the group Scully made the new seasons for? Is it the group for which Scully took away most of the intelligent stuff and added sex jokes and slapstick? Maybe my fault was that I considered young people the way Scully did but I think I�m not entirely wrong. At least Scully found his audience for the "new" show.

Whatever, I apologize again. It was a strange posting and as usual my fault.

Chris

OK, well now I feel badly. I tend to overreact when it comes to generalizations. I still think you should talk to some 12 year old kids before you assume what they're gonna say, but in the age of Backstreet Boys and N'Sync, you could be right. Well, I guess both of us will never know, because we're not 12 years old.

~Amanda

"Chris Pfeiler" wrote in message news:[email]...

rise

sorry.

always

one of

Maybe

more

meant.

bunch

have

compare

today

current

ones I

but is

the

sex

way

fault.

And I tend to generalize and to write too radical postings. It�s my problem.

Chris

To prevent further misunderstanding here a few additional words (and I hope I�m not generalizing again. Let me know if I do.)

You probably think about yourself and what you expected from the show when you were 10 or 12 and you feel insulted by what I said. I understand this. I talked about "new fans" and by that I meant the young people who grew up with Scully seasons and who mostly know the Simpsons as a bunch of cartoon clowns who live a life of weirdness and wacky adventures. If you confront such a group (I�m not speaking of individuals but of a general group) with a classic episode you�ll get some of the replies I made up and that�s something I�m quite sure about.

The replies I wrote for a grown-up fan sound indeed way too arrogant or elitistic. I wanted to show with what difference some young fans and some old fans consider seasons. I don�t meant to insult someone, I just wanted to show the difference in a stereotypical way.

Children deserve intelligent episodes and many of you grew up with the old episodes and many of you appreciated the intelligence and wit even when you were younger (but most of you won�t deny that you noticed many of the satirical references for the first time when you grew older.) There�s no doubt. But there�s IMO a new group that grew up with Scully stuff. It�s the group Scully wanted to have as new and fresh audience and it�s the group Scully even somehow "formed" as new and fresh audience.

Somebody would now undoubtedly correct me and say "I was 12 and I started with a Scully season but I soon learned that the early episodes were much better so you�re generalization is again wrong. I�m 15 now and I know more about the referecenes than many old dudes." I agree. My argument is wrong for individuals but it�s IMO not wrong on a larger scale, it�s correct for the group or audience Scully either "created" or brought to the show from other shows. That�s the simple reason why they will continue with wacky stories, they don�t want to alienate the new audience and that new audience maybe contains people like the stereotypical 12-year-old "fan" in my post. You can say now you know 20 people aged between 10 and 15 who appreciate old seasons but it won�t change much. The new audience is built of younger people who came to the show in the Scully era and many of them are the way Scully wanted them to be. The ratings went up during season 11, Scully was sucessful.

Maybe I�m wrong with everything I said. Maybe it�s just a bunch of crap I wrote because I had nothing else to do (mental note: get a life ;-)) This morning I felt like writing something more radical to show my anger about current episodes but it guess it went out of control and became insulting. Sorry again.

Chris

when the Show Started I was 7 and I loved the show.

"Amanda Elend" wrote in message news:aKPh7.2900$[email]...

Being the fact that you can't pick apart a flippant remark, a different method was in order.

It was a reasonable assumption (See below.) If he is not.. Well, then it's even worse. A child can grow into maturity. An adult with such mannerisms is in all likelihood a lost cause.

and why did you go after him for no

No good reason?

No good reason indeed! Such flagrant disrespect for an intelligent and well-thought out post is unacceptable.

Furthermore, the crudeness of the post suggests he struck a chord with "Jesus." Such a vulgar, hostile response is typical of a child.

I find it disappointing that you attack me instead of the true troublemaker.

"Amanda Elend" wrote in message news:aKPh7.2900$[email]...

Being the fact that you can't pick apart a flippant remark, a different method was in order.

It was a reasonable assumption (See below.) If he is not.. Well, then it's even worse. A child can grow into maturity. An adult with such mannerisms is in all likelihood a lost cause.

and why did you go after him for no

No good reason?

No good reason indeed! Such flagrant disrespect for an intelligent and well-thought out post is unacceptable.

Furthermore, the crudeness of the post suggests he struck a chord with "Jesus." Such a vulgar, hostile response is typical of a child.

I find it disappointing that you attack me instead of the true troublemaker.

*Stupid server, I hope this doesn't appear twice*

"Ozar" wrote in message news:[email]...

I'm sorry Ozar; but I'm picturing an old lady with a ruler, having just slapped someone's knuckles here. :) Acceptable or not, Jesus the Destroyer has made his opinion known (as have you). Opinions won't always fit within the parameters of "acceptable", as I'm sure you realize.

"Jesus" may surprise you. He's been here a while, and doesn't usually flame people or post unless they've said something that may offend or insult someone else. I highly respect Chris and his opinions; but "Jesus" may have felt Chris' post was insulting to some people out there. Ironically, his post was a way to balance things out.

I have nothing against opposing opinions. But you shouldn't be defending him. It's not the opinion that matters in this case. It's the manner in which it was made. Jesus was flat out rude.

Opinions won't always fit within

It's not the opinion that bothers me, it's the way he expressed it. Like it or not, a poorly stated opinion carries less weight than an expertly crafted one.

I hope that's not indicative of great tolerance for deviants in this newsgroup.

and doesn't usually flame

Does he always flame in such a crude, boorish style?

I highly respect Chris and his opinions; but "Jesus" may have

Not nearly as his own.

In , on Saturday 25 August 2001 15:57, Ozar at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

bite me, OE luser.

only when you deserve it, fuckhead.

nope, if anyone had bothered to read my response instead of thinking my attrib line was my response they would have seen that my response was "i didn't read any of this." therefore i thought none of it was insulting, for i did not read it.

killfile me now, you'll thank yourself

In , on Saturday 25 August 2001 15:13, Ozar at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

assumptions on usenet only make you look stoopid, boy. and guess how you look right now?

hey dumbfuck, it goes at the beginning of everything i post. it's called my attribution line. learn the term. then learn what a killfile is because i know you'll want to put me in yours before long, fucksplash.

Except for the last two seasons. There was very little intelligence involved in those jokes. Remember when Citizen Kane was parodied? Now the show has decended into weird alligator-trip-to-Africa-tennis-court-constructing crap on a stick. ________________________________________________________________

The Indian DVD Resource: http://www.fly.to/indiadvd

What happens when you delete the Recycle Bin?

"Gay" is not a synonym for "bad."

Remove "bination" to reply.

I guess you mean the Bobo episode but we just had another episode on TV which also clearly refers to Citizen Kane: the classic 7F01 "Two Cars in Every Garage, Three Eyes on Every Fish" from season 2.

Now that�s what I call a great episode. Lots of wit and political satire and fun. But this is IMO the kind of episodes only a minority of all the young people who started to watch the show in the Scully era will appreciate. Many of them would react like the 12-year-old in my post. They would say "Boooooring" and they would complain that it isn�t funny enough and too realistic as it deals with "adult stuff" and politics. That�s IMO the new generation of Simpson fans the Scully era "created" with all the slapstick and weirdness. At least I think so. Maybe I�m wrong.

When I hear the word "Citizen Kane" I always remember now one of the greatest insults to the older fans: Lisa�s "There was no cane in Citizien Kane". Come on. Who needs that kind of over-explanation?

Well, let�s wait for the upcoming season 1 and 2 DVDs (well, I already have them as British video box sets.) I hope they�ll bring back some fans (hopefully even some young fans) to the true non-cut style of the show, the style of intelligence and satire and not the style of Scully and probably the new style of Al Jean.

Chris

In , on Saturday 25 August 2001 10:50, Ozar at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

anyone who considers this a flame is a fuckhead. you sir, are a fuckhead.

hth, hand.

In article , Jesus, The Destroyer writes:

well i, for one, thought your comments were accurate. i found the simpsons later and life and understand the difference between seasons 2, 3, 4, or 5 and season 11, 12 and so on. i started watching the simpsons in syndication, probably somewhere around season 7. i "caught up" in the episodes that way. at one time, i thought it was the best thing on tv, hands down...the older eps are so witty and so cutting, but yet can manage to have a sense of heart that the newer eps don't have at all, imo. the newer eps have some allusions to keep the older fans in the ballgame, but for the most part, they are much more mindless and heartfelt than the older eps. so as far as older fans losing their sense of humor, no i don't think that happened...i was not 12 when i started watching and did not grow up with it per se. i came on board when i was old enought to appreciate the show, but i have, through the wonders of syndication, seen the show decline intellectually. my tracing of the shows goes something like this:

early years: could be a kids show with sitcom like happenings, very down to earth best years: adult show, but not too vulgar for kids to watch, with sitcom like heart, but also with cutting satire for more mature fans later years: adult show, but probably appeals to kids more, with a lot less heart and wit, more vulgarity and slapstick.

=v= I am disgusted with the way old people are depicted on television. We are not all vibrant, fun-loving sex maniacs. Many of us are bitter, resentful individuals who remember the good old days when entertainment was bland and inoffensive.

=v= The following is a list of words I never want to hear on
television again.  Number one:  Floor pie.  Number two:
Bite my shiny metal ass.  Number three:  Family Guy.    .-.  .-.
    <_Abe_>                                            /  / /  /
  |\/\/\/|                                            /  / /  /

Opinions can differ within each age group. I'm 17, and I think that the show has gotten worse. I have one friend who at first didn't think so, but changed his mind and I have another who thinks the show is still good. ________________________________________________________________

The Indian DVD Resource: http://www.fly.to/indiadvd

What happens when you delete the Recycle Bin?

"Gay" is not a synonym for "bad."

Remove "bination" to reply.

Chris, as an admirer of the Simpsons since day 1 i must say you are absolutely right. BUT your constant bitching and moaning had already gotten old 200 posts ago

"Chris Pfeiler" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:[email]...

the same stuff as always

Hmmm, I never considered it as constant bitching and moaning but I guess I�m indeed a little repetitive. I�ll make a break and stop nagging for...say...2 or 3 days ;-).

All right, maybe I�ll try to write something nice next time. My season 1 - 3 reviews were nice, no moaning there.

Chris

In , on Saturday 25 August 2001 07:04, Chris Pfeiler at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

for the dumbfucks of usenet, the above is my attrib line. it is mine, and it goes at the beginning of everything i post. it was not a personal attack against chris. anyone who thought it was is a fuckhead. this goes double for ozar.

hth, hand.

<Jesus>; "The Destroyer" wrote in message news:9mbatq$hln$[email]...

attack

I've got no problem with it. People who say they have no problem with opinions, then turn around and expect to enforce their own opinions on others are close-minded idiots, though. (I'm sure you agree ;) Whether the "attrib" line is an expression of your opinion or not, demanding that you "fall in line" with this person's opinion of how people should act is very close-minded.

If someone can't handle the words or "imagery" in your attrib line, this person needs more work on his/her social skills than you or I do. "Taking offense" is a choice.

You're seem to be quite a nasty, sad, bitter little person.. I feel sorry for you.

In , on Sunday 26 August 2001 20:23, Alex at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

thanks, your opinions mean nothing to me. if i didn't have other things to do, i could spend the next few minutes making up my own ill informed judgements about you from the little i know based on your usenet posts. maybe tomorrow.

hand.

Hey they got arpanet on computers now !

Oh my god. I'm sorry I ever defended this little *jesus* bastard. If you have nothing better to do than piss people off, then you're doing a good job. I think you need to get a little happiness in your life. Or a little action.

Anyway, I never said old people had lost their sense of humor. I simply believe that our society isn't as cut and dry as Chris laid out for us. Age does not dictate all opinions.

In , on Tuesday 28 August 2001 11:40, Amanda Elend at [email] took its finger out of its ass and typed:

who asked for your defense?

are you coming on to me?

who asked you?

I can't be bothered reading everything, but here's my simple take:

EVERYTHING changes with time. The humor of TS changes as writers move on, your favorite restaurant isn't as consistent as chefs move on, and your haircuts aren't as good after your fave stylist moves on. You continue to live your life, but it is DAMN hard to not yearn for things to be as good as they once were. This is how life works, and we come here to express our frustration with seeing The Simpsons change after years of rabid viewing.

For me, TS is tied to college. We used to sit around in a large group and watch every new ep. We NEVER missed this meeting, and it was critical to returning to classes in good spirits the next day. It is only natural that I feel sad when I watch old eps and think about how things/the show have changed.

If you see headers that indicate a display of frustration within, MOVE ON. The show has changed, and some of us are NOT happy with saying, "Well, it's still funnier than 90% of network tv".

Jesse

Chris Pfeiler wrote: