Liberal media crack

Even I, a conservative found that hilarious.

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:31:19 -0500 (EST), [email] (Chris �) wrote:

Ditto.

Funny (LOL!!!!) how the Dittoheads are stalking ATS. +- +- +- +- "Make your own cross" - Flash and the Pan +- +- +- +- "Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:14:56 -0600, "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" wrote:

Actually, I'm not a "dittohead," nor am I "stalking" this group, whatever that's supposed to mean, exactly. I'm here because I'm a *Simpsons* fan. I wasn't aware that this group was meant to be politically segregated.

Yet all you could say before the post I'm responding to is "Ditto".

Your "Close, Personal Friend",

Stan

Say Snott, how do you like my "Oxi-Continetal" sketch idea for the next Saturday Night BTW???? +- +- +- +- "Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003 23:46:06 -0600, "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" wrote:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/96/D0299600.html

dit�to NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. dit�tos 1. The same as stated above or before....

ETYMOLOGY: Italian dialectal, past participle of Italian dire, to say, from Latin dicere. See deik- in Appendix I. WORD HISTORY: Ditto, which at first glance seems a handy and insignificant sort of word, actually has a Roman past, for it comes from dictus, �having been said,� the past participle of the verb dicere, �to say.� In Italian dicere became dire and dictus became detto, or in the Tuscan dialect ditto. Italian detto or ditto meant what said does in English, as in the locution �the said story.� Thus the word could be used in certain constructions to mean �the same as what has been said�; for example, having given the date December 22, one could use 26 detto or ditto for 26 December. The first recorded use of ditto in English occurs in such a construction in 1625. The sense �copy� is an English development, first recorded in 1818. Ditto has even become a trademark for a duplicating machine.

Oh, you can quote, what is it, a dictionary too????

Stan, www.thesequencers.us nl: Nickelback on Rockline!!!! +- +- +- +- "Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

Oh, stop being so whiny, you sound like a damned liberal.

I laugh every time I read that tag line, it is great! *Everyone* thinks their ideology is the "ideology of reality." Conservatives and liberals are equally deluded.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:57:41 GMT, "That Guy" wrote:

Yeah, but I mean something specific by it.

Conservatism is not an "ideology" at all (which I realize will come as a great surprise to a lot of people who call themselves "conservatives").

Ideologues (of both the right and left) subordinate reality to theory. Conservatism is about dealing with the world the way it is. That's why conservatives resist sudden or large-scale changes to institutions which have been around for a long time, however imperfect they may be. They've evolved the way they have for a reason, and conservatives recognize that changing them willy-nilly because they do not fit our current ideological preferences is likely to lead to something worse--perhaps far worse. On the other hand, conservatives also recognize that some change is inevitable, and that we must deal with the reality of change instead of digging in our heels and quoting George Washington on "entangling alliances."

Also, conservatives believe in human nature, and that human nature is immutably imperfect. Again, conservatives believe in dealing with human nature as it is, and not attempting to refashion humanity into a "New ______ Man."

That's what I mean when I call conservatism "the ideology of reality."

That's not to say that conservatives are always right. Like everything else in this fallen world, conservatives are imperfect, and sometimes we make wrong decisions, but I believe that by and large the conservative position is more likely to lead to a decent and tolerable world than ony other--which is why I am a conservative.

For further reading, I recommend Russell Kirk's "Ten Conservative Principles": http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

are

This is great satire!

If I may paraphrase (please correct me if I have misunderstood you): "My way of thinking (in this case, conservatism) isn't an ideology because ideologies deal with beliefs and my way of thinking deals with reality."

Again, everyone thinks this way. Everyone believes their picture of the world is the "real" one and everyone else's is to some degree incorrect. Sorry, nothing you have said convinced me that conservatism is anything but just another set of beliefs--it doesn't deal with the "real" world any more than any other ideology.

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 18:02:11 GMT, "That Guy" wrote:

You have misunderstood me.

Ideologues are idealists: they want to (and believe they can) change reality to comport with their ideologies. As Shaw said, "Some people see things as they are and ask 'why?' I dream of things that never were, and ask 'why not?" This is not inherently inferior to the conservative way of looking at the world. But it is different.

Libertarians (to avoid turning this into a simple-minded right-left kerfuffle) have a very specific view of how a society should be run (or, since they're libertarians, *not* run). And they believe that the ideal society, at any time and place, is one run in accordance with libertarian policy preferences.

Conservatism, however, is not a set of dogmas or doctrines or policies. It's a way of looking at the world. Conservatives do not believe that there is an ideal set of policies. The conservative Cicero favored many policies for the Roman Republic that no conservative today would support for the US. But Cicero was no less conservative for that.

What policies characterize a liberal state (I use the word "liberal" in the older, more respectable sense)? Free speech, freedom of religion, limits on state power, democracy, equal treatment of all citizens, etc.

What characterizes a conservative state? That's much harder to answer. In fact, there is no answer. The type of state favored by conservatives depends on the type of state a society has traditionally known--that is, what conservatives are trying to conserve. American conservatives favor a liberal constitutional republic. British conservatives favor a liberal constitutional monarchy. Continental conservatives favor more authoritarian and statist political systems. Roman conservatives in Cicero's time favored an oligarchical constitutional republic. German conservatives in 1900 favored an authoritarian monarchy.

Some ideology, which doesn't even say what form of government is best, let alone prescribe specific policies.

What conservatives share is not an ideology, but a way of looking at things, and that way is based on shaping policy to reality, instead of vice versa.

If I were suddenly transported back to 1900 Germany, I would favor leaving the Kaiser's regime in place; at most, I would want to nibble around the edges of his power. I would do this even though I would undoubtedly find that political system abhorrent. My personal preference for a liberal state would not overcome my conservative recognition of reality.

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

.

There's the rub, I don't seem to be able to see any difference between an ideology and a "way of looking at the world." From my perspective, an ideology *is* a way of looking at the world.

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:50:29 GMT, "That Guy" wrote:

Well, the dictionary defines "ideology" thusly:

1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture. 2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.

http://www.bartleby.com/61/13/I0021300.html

Everyone has a way of looking at the world (even if not a particularly coherent or well-thought-out way), but relatively few people have ideologies. Most non-ideological people are not conservatives, but just ordinary people who don't bother much about politics.

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

Right. So though pretty much everyone has a set of beliefs they use to help determine how they interpret the raw data their senses process, if that set does not form the basis of a political, economic or other system, it's not an ideology?

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:53:43 GMT, "That Guy" wrote:

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Not every set of beliefs is an ideology.

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

Now tell him to look up "straw man".

Stan

"That Guy" wrote in message news:VSMsb.867$[email]...

Agreed.

Stan "this guy" Rosenthal

Thanks for posting that link. Interesting reading.

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.

"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...

"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me Than a frontal lobadomy" - Tom Waits

You get your frontal lobadomy when you join the right-wing.

Your "Close, Personal Friend",

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:20:05 -0600, "\"MIDIcian\" \(tm\)" wrote:

"Lobadomy"?

Here's a piece of friendly advice: if you hate a group of people so much that you feel compelled to insult them gratuitously and without provocation based on their supposed intellectual inferiority, you would do well to spell said insult correctly.

Otherwise, people may start thinking you're a schmuck.

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

Everybody knows that spelling flames are one of the lowest forms of LUsing on the net (because everybody knows you're attacking spelling instead of attacking what was actually written.)

You stepped *RIGHT* into my trap.

Your "Close, Personal Friend",

Well, everybody knows that you're a delusional psycho, but let's not bring that up here.

"Oh, but What's He Building WAS really written about me! My mom IS dying!"

Sorry.

"Jacob Skaaning", right-wing extremist lying-type propaganda artist -

Straw man(s). Attack the real me - you keep missing your target.

Stan

Stan:

I'm afraid Tom Waits didn't come up with that.

"Kjell Ove Hattrem" wrote in message news:Bwiwb.991$[email]...

So who (and when) came up with it????

"That Guy" wrote in message news:VLssb.833$[email]...

are

Straw man (aimed at Liberals.)

Stan

""MIDIcian" (tm)" wrote in message news:bov0h5$gji$[email]...

Try making sense.

"That Guy" wrote in message news:3UMsb.868$[email]...

thinks

liberals

Crack a (decent) dictionary (and look up "straw man") and it will make perfect sense.

Stan, www.thesequencers.us +- +- +- +- The BOING Cheer/I Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Get Boinged Rag (parody of The FISH Cheer/I Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Die Rag by Country Joe and the Fish) by 'Stan and the Sequencers'

Gimmie a B (B) Gimmie a O (O) Gimmie a I (I) Gimmie a N (N) Gimmie a G (G)

What's that spell! (BOING!) What's that spell! (BOING!) What's that spell! (BOING!)

Come on all of you big strong fans Uncle Jon needs your help again Hooked himself up with a sequencin' Stan Way down yonder in Weird Al's plan Put down 'the book' and 'dare to be dumb' We're gonna have a whole lotta fun

And it's one, two, three What are we chillin' for Don't ask me, I don't give a damn Next stop is 'Friends and Fans' And it's five, six, seven Click on the purple links Well there ain't no time to wonder why Whoopee! we're all gonna lie

Well, come on Videots, let's move fast Your big chance is here at last You can go out and do some reds 'Cause the only good brain is one that's dead You know that minds can only be won Once they've all been totally numbed

And it's one, two, three What are we chillin' for Don't ask me, I don't give a damn Next stop is 'Friends and Fans' And it's five, six, seven Click on the purple links Well there ain't no time to wonder why Whoopee! we're all gonna lie

BBBBOOOOIIIINNNNGGGG!

Come on West Street, don't move slow Boinger's, Spammers, Trolls A-Go-Go There's lot's of snake oil to be made Supplying the newsgroup with pseudos of all ages Just hope that when they drop their bombs They drop 'em on their own damn tongues

And it's one, two, three What are we chillin' for Don't ask me, I don't give a damn Next stop is 'Friends and Fans' And it's five, six, seven Click on the purple links Well there ain't no time to wonder why Whoopee! we're all gonna lie

Come on mothers throughout the land Pack your kids off to AlCon 2000 Come on fathers don't hesitate Send your kids off before it's too late Be the first ones on your block To have your kids come home ALl crocked

And it's one, two, three What are we chillin' for Don't ask me, I don't give a damn Next stop is 'Friends and Fans' And it's five, six, seven Click on the purple links Well there ain't no time to wonder why Whoopee! we're all gonna lie

""MIDIcian" (tm)" wrote in message news:bp1nhg$e04$[email]...

Stan, I don't need a dictionary, I already know what "straw man" means, and I don't see how or where it applies to this thread.

There are plenty of conservative Simpsons fans which have posted in here for years.

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.

"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...

"They're getting in They're getting inside" - Supertramp

Personally I think it says a great deal about the nature of conservatism that conservatives seem so unable to admit the ideological nature of their... well.... ideology.

Liberalism is an ideology. I freely acknowlege that. Conservatism, of course, is an ideology too. Any system of thought based on an interpretation of aspects of the world is, of course, an ideology. I would love to know what it is about the nature of conservatives that makes it so hard for them to see that.

"Scott Munro" wrote in message news:[email]...

Furthermore, the ideological nature of conservatism is confirmed by the fact that it has an opposing ideology, i.e. liberalism!

"Oliver Padel" wrote in message news:3fb6ab88$0$13760$[email]...

interpretation

them

No, conservatism, in it's rawest form, is the distinct lack of ideology. It's based more on practicality and reality than idealism.

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.

"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...

Bullshit. It's based on "smoke and mirrors".

conservatism \Con*serv"a*tism\, n. [For conservatism.] The disposition and tendency to preserve what is established; opposition to change; the habit of mind; or conduct, of a conservative.

So Conservatism is the viewpoint that what exists should be preserved. That is, without doubt, ideology.

ideology

n 1: an orientation that characterizes the thinking of a group or nation [syn: political orientation, political theory] 2: imaginary or visionary theorization

I don't think you can deny that conservatism is certainly a characterisation of a certain way of thinking. Your argument seems essentially to be this: Conservatism considers itself not to be ideological because it is a mode of thought that attempts to look at reality in a practical way. (Supposedly. I would strongly disagree, but that's beside the point.) Liberalism, on the other hand, is ideological because it is, to some extent, (in your view,) idealistic, (not in mine). In fact, however, the difference between conservatism and liberalism is not really that. In truth, liberalism is as much a way of looking at reality as conservatism. Conservatism looks with the predisposition to maintaining the status quo, liberalism with the tendency to inquire with a view to ethical and humanitarian issues, and, in contrast to conservatism, to remove the emphasis from dogmatism with regards the ideology of a system. It is clear that the difference is not in the fundamental "type" of the beliefs held, but rather in the preconceptions with which they would tend to influence people to approach a question of, as you say, reality.

In addition, your argument that, "Conservatives think they are being practical, therefore conservatism is not an ideology" simply does not logically make sense. I suggest you look carefully at the meaning of "ideology", and contrast with that of "idealism" to find out where your misconception has occurred.

Moreover (!) conservatism in this country (england) has always tried to be seen to be to do with the notion that success is "open to all", i.e. anyone has the opportunity to profiteer, which is patently untrue ("free enterprise" always tending to create a pyramidal system as those at the top, the profiteers, rely on a broad base of those at the bottom to sustain what might be termed their conservatism, or their desire to maintain their priveleged status). However, the (dishonest) nature of this purported altruism is clearly ideological, indeed in such a way as to be positively over-idealistic!

Regards,

Not Oliver Padel (I don't know how to stop it saying i am!)

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 13:06:55 -0000, "Oliver Padel" wrote:

Conservatism is far more than that. I'll direct you once again to Russell Kirk:

http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html

I think you're ignoring definition number 2 that you yourself posted: "imaginary or visionary theorization."

I'll try to explain this one more time.

Conservatism is not ideological because it has no set notion of how things should be. It all depends on circumstances. To quote Edmund Burke: "Circumstances ... give in reality to every political principle its distinguishing colour and discriminating effect. The circumstances are what render every civil and political scheme beneficial or noxious to mankind."

Although ideologues may be willing to deal with reality and moderate their pursuit of their ideals, the ideals remain the same. An ideologue could design an ideal constitution. He might not be silly enough to actually believe that he could impose it on any society overnight, but he knows how a society should be governed. For example, I'll bet you think that a society with widespread suffrage is *inherently* better than one without.

A conservative couldn't possibly design an ideal constitution. Even designing a constitution for a specific society would, for the conservative, be fraught with peril. A conservative would be far more comfortable either leaving well-enough alone, or at most tinkering with a society's traditional constitution--even if it were a constitution the conservative himself doesn't much care for. Of course, in extraordinary circumstances, a conservative might find it necessary to make wholesale changes in the way a nation is run (e.g., in postwar Japan), but he wouldn't much care for the job.

That's why I, for example, am not optimistic about the future of Iraq. Although I supported the war, I deeply wish that Administration officials would stop yammering on about "democracy." I'd be far more comfortable if they would confine themselves to promising the Iraqis a decent and humane government under the rule of law, which is something which I think may possibly be doable. As it is, I think Iraq's future is in the hands of democratic ideologues who will attempt to impose their vision regardless of the actual circumstances in Iraq. I also think the effort is likely to fail.

In fact, British conservatism has not "always" tried to do anything of the kind, and I think your inability to take a long-term view (along with the ideological prejudices on display here) is at the root of your misunderstanding of what conservatism is.

And since you seem to want to get into the sort of political argument I've been trying to avoid, I'll say goodbye.

That is not a definition of conservative political philosophy. I direct you to other posts which lay down the appropriate definition.

"I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - General George S. Patton.

You don't seem to have understood the main point of my argument. Namely, the fact that conservatism sees itself as "ealistic" does not in any way mean that it is not an ideology.

"Oliver Padel" wrote in message news:3fb6ab88$0$13760$[email]...

interpretation

them

Oh they see that - they just won't admit that.

Stan

"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...

As it was intended to. I wasn't the only intended audience of that remark.

I'm glad you appreciated it.

Stan, (actual) Liberal,

"Chris �" wrote in message news:[email]...

Me too.

"Everything you know is wrong *BLACK IS WHITE, UP IS DOWN and SHORT IS LONG*" - "Genius Al" Yankovic

""MIDIcian" (tm)" wrote in message news:...

Uh Snott, I don't see a response from you attempting to dispute my response.

Your "Close, Personal Friend",

Stan, www.thesequencers.us +- +- +- +- 'Squirrel Goodbye' by 'Stan and the Sequencers' (parody of 'Girl Goodbye' by 'Toto')

Well I'm out on the rope And Poohbear's got my soul And I'm looking for the Al In A M Wa

Well I'm out with the Jon Got scissors, got the runs If this john don't flush soon It'll stink like the city

So it's goodbye squirrel, goodbye squirrel Squirrel goodbye It's so hard to smell the fish with that hook, in your eye

Goodbye squirrel, goodbye squirrel Squirrel goodbye Must be in the way that she lie Must be in the way that she lies Must be in the way that she lie

Well there's smoke in in the air And there's, mirrors everywhere Low I'm hoping that the right man Well he doesn't piss test me

Well I'm not sorry for what I've sung And I sing it not in fun When I smell you, that there's More dogs white there to decide me

And it's goodbye squirrel, goodbye squirrel Squirrel goodbye It's so hard to see the truth with that spoon, in your eye Fat has

Goodbye squirrel, goodbye squirrel Squirrel goodbye Must be in the way that she lie Must be in the way that she lies Must be in the way that she lyed

(Instrumental break) AHHH HAHA Snott!

So it's goodbye squirrel, goodbye squirrel Squirrel goodbye It's so hard to smell the fish with that hook, in your eye Fat has

Goodbye squirrel, goodbye squirrel Squirrel goodbye Must be in the way that she lies Must be in the way that she lies Must be in the way that she lyed

""MIDIcian" (tm)" wrote in message news:bov6bg$122$[email]...

response.

Reading over your other posts, I have come to believe that Scott plonked you. I believe he made the correct choice.

"That Guy" wrote in message news:gEetb.926$[email]...

Believe what you want.

Your "Close, Personal Friend",

Stan

Still no (valid) response from any conservative!!!!

""MIDIcian" (tm)" wrote in message news:...

Since a commentator commented on how the Texans have been competitive with "smoke and mirror" today (in reference to the Texans being competitive even with all our injuries (and we got many)), I'm gonna post who/what I quoted from (ME!) -

Stan, www.thesequencers.us "Now that the smoke has cleared ... That's Y I say hey man Nice shot What a good shot man" - Filter +- +- +- +- Smoke and Mirrors (parody of Love And Marriage (Cahn/Van Heusen) Frank Sinatra) Parody lyrics by Stan and the Sequencers

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors Come together like impeachment hearings This I tell you sucker You don't get one without the other

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors How can I make this any clearer? Open dictionary (StanNote: and look up "sexual relations") And it will show it's elementary

Try, try, try to separate them It's an illusion Try, try, try, and you will only come To this conclusion

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors Come together like impeachment hearings DeLay won't tell you sucker You don't get gov. without the "brother"