Fans debate whether the episode's wheelchair humor is offensive, with some defending it as acceptable comedy while others object; discussion includes comparison to previous controversial episodes.
I read that someone hated this episode. I don't know, I thought it was pretty good. Name me one other show that could show a person in a wheelchair rolling down a hill like that and still make it funny. They get away with more stuff!
And yes, George sat down at his parents place and immediately picked up... Glamour!
But I'll agree there was a lot going on in this one. The Drake, the parking place, the wheelchair, George's parents, but they all tied together at the end. Still I'd rather watch ANY Seinfeld than 95% of anything else shown on TV these days.
In article [email] (Brian Amer (Sverdrup)) writes:
I hope they don't get away with stuff like that. I know I sure objected to this episode. Dissapointed that a show I really like could pull a stunt like that.
Now that was funny. Too bad the rest of the show was so bad.
After last night I think anything might be better than Seinfeld.
I find it odd that people are offended by jokes about someone in a wheelchair, but not by jokes about about the mentally insane, lesbians, gays, the elderly, masturbation, Nazis, immigrants, and a host of other offensive topics. Sounds like some people have a double standard.
If you've ever known anyone in a wheelchair, you might not find the episode so offensive. They can live dynamic, fulfilling lives, and rolling down hills is a constant danger. It's like Jerry worrying about running out of fruit in his cereal bowl...one of those constant daily worries that will drive you mad.
I would have found about other groups just as offensive.
You wouldn't be questioning my reactions if the episode has featured racist humor and I came on the net saying that I was offended.
pardon me for taking the episode personally.
I myself am in a wheelchair, and it was the parody of very serious problems that I run into every day that I was offended by.
I've never found humor in almost flipping over on a steep ramp, or when ***holes block the sidewalk and then give me dirty looks when I ask them to move.
I'm sorry, but I found nothing positive about the episode. My situation hasn't been much of a positive experience so far, and it really hurt seeing it made fun of with such impunity.
First of all, I have to agree with you that the shot of the woman rolling down the hill was completely unnecessary, and was hardly up to the standards of Seinfeld.
However, I don't think that there is anything wrong with Seinfeld treating a handicapped person *as a person*. I'm sure, Simon, that condescension isn't high on your list of favorite things, either. It's important to remember that people come in all shapes, sizes, and attitudes, and should be treated according to who they are, not how they get around. That *should* apply to everyone. Unfortunately there is still too much ignorance in the world for this to be a reality. But I'm sure that every once in a while you meet someone who surprises you.
Was the most objectionable scene, for you, that shot of her rolling down the hill (it certainly was for me)? If that had not been included, would you still have been offended by the episode? I'm genuinely curious. I felt that it was a subpar Seinfeld, and that scene was completely unneeded. (Of course, IMHO, Seinfeld is a little like sex - it's always, at least, good, but 'lotsa times it's great :-P)
Social science in action.
OBSeinfeld: Hey, there's a spot next to the hydrant!
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For those of you who are offended by the scene of the persoin rolling downhill.....give me a break? I am tired of everyone in this country looking for things to be offended about. If you bothered to listen to the plot of the episode, the handicapped woman gave kramer a rude brush off, after he had gone out of his way to be nice. [the message being that she was nice until she got the wheelchair and then did not give a damn about Kramer} What made the scene funny was that this person who was so rude and uncool [hey - never be uncool to Kramer..] was getting her comuppance - as in a Charlie Chaplin or a Laurel and Hardy flick...besides, why should good old fashioned physical comedy be only the domain of the physically abled?
if you need the show explained to you DO NOT COMPLAIN AND DO NOT WATCH.....
Offended? Not really. It's just that I thought it could have been handled in a more Seinfeldesque manner. We didn't need to see her flying down the hill necessarily. What if the only way the audience (and George) found out about it was through the phone call to George's father. That seems, IMHO, funnier, more subtle, and more like the Seinfeld we know and love. Hell, we don't need to get slapped in the face with comedy! We're Seinfeld fans, the smartest fans in the world!!!
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.....
:-)
-Karlucco
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Geez, I thought I missed the point of the episode. I thought it was about how George was an ***hole for parking in the handicapped space, and about how George and Kramer were ***holes even further after being such cheapskates in trying to replace the woman's wheelchair.
This is really upseting- I'm getting flamed after I apologized for my initial remarks.
Of course I'm all for treating the disabled as people. It would be great, just once, for someone not to notice my wheelchair when I go out.
I've seen some of that ignorance firsthand. I guess I didn't get the message about treating people based on who they are. To me, it was lost in the midst of the repeated bad wheelchair jokes. What offended me was that they kept harping on the whole thing.
I know I took it personally, but due to my situation, it was hard not to ignore the crude humor.
I usually can keep my condition out of things, but this is one time I know
I think without that scene it wouldn't have been quite as bad, but like I said, I still would have been offended by their constant harping about it.
Usually I find Seinfeld funny- that's another reason why I was so irked about this episode.
Oh, I get it. The show is funny when it's about someone else's flaws or physical disabilties but not yours. I bet you weren't offended by the episode that addressed the gay issue or the one about elderly people. The point is: Every episode has the possibility to offend someone. Hell, every T.V. ever written has that possibility. I'm sorry that this particular Seinfeld episode offended you. If you feel that strongly about it, maybe you should write a letter to the Seinfeld writers.
Laurie Marshall Wayne State University Detroit, Michigan
I never said that making fun of other people's situations was funny. Please don't misinterpret what I was saying.
I already apologized for all of this, all that I ask is for people here to understand why I might have been offended by the episode. I if I knew it would do any good.
How could I explain to them that I was offended so that it would be taken seriously and not just some crank?
I hope I've cleared things up. I got carried away with my responses, and I am trying to stop this.
Please believe me when I say I am sorry about this.
hello, to ANYONE out there who has a rougher time of it, be that because of physical, emotional, or mental hurdle that's just a little higher than the rest of us have to manage, i send you best wishes! keep up the struggle. there are plenty of folks who empathize with you.
the rest? hey, what's a bowl of cherries without a few pits?
let's remember that this IS a alt.group dealing with a comedic subject. since some of the best comedy comes with pain, i don't think that we should carry on like a tupperware party (geeeeeeez, no tupperwarers flames, PLEASE). therefore, i rather applaud the edgier discussions which we've had re j. l-d.'s non-jewish character and the hndicapped woman in last week's show.
so, now i am left with two questions:
a. why has the handicapped discussion taken up nearly as much bandwidth as THE CONTEST's discussion(?), and
why has my query re female jewish characters been handled almost entirely in private e-mail to me?
and a comment:
simon, the lady tried to make nice with you, don't turn into the char from last weeks show.
I think you have this wrong. They didn't mock anyone for being handicapped, they just presented it in a humorous way. And after she dumped Kramer (thus showing her to be a bitch) after taking his money, she deserves to roll down the hill like that. They've dealt with so many topics on Seinfeld, why not someone who is physically challenged. I'd be insulted, if I were handicapped, by your implication that everyone should feel sorry for them and never use them in comedy.
I completely disagree, I still liked it, even if I'm the only one.
In article [email] (Brian Amer (Sverdrup)) writes:
Watching this episode, I recall thinking, "Oh my, *somebody's* gonna get offended by this." However, on reflection, I don't believe that the point was to ridicule the handicapped, but to ridicule the insensitivity demonstrated by George and Kramer. The "simple" act of parking in a handicapped space resulted in threats of bodily harm, social ostracization, the destruction of George's dad's car and the hospitalization of an innocent woman--not to mention George's indentured servitude.
The shot of the woman barrelling down the hill in her defective chair seemed less an attempt to say "Isn't that out-of-control handicapped woman hilarious?" than an attempt to point out the cause-and-effect of George's cheapskate nature. Just another in the long line of disasters created by Jerry and Co.
David Thiel / Traffic Manager Phone: (217) 333-1070
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"Alright, you primitive screwheads, listen up! This is my *boomstick!" -- Ash, ARMY OF DARKNESS
This was *EXACTLY* my take on the whole thing. I tried to explain it to a friend (who watched Seinfeld for the first time -- I'm still working on convincing her to give it another try) that it showed how their ofttimes less-than-well-thought-out actions have far-reaching and less than desirable consequences.
I have gotten a lot of pitying and suspicious looks for saying i thought the thing was damned funny. (Especially in Seattle and in a clinical psych program.) People have gotten to a point that they are self-righteous about everything which involves non-Anglo-Christian-ablebodied-heterosexual males. It's almost as if they see such a person and some antenna goes up telling them to "watch out!" Be Ultra-Sensitive! Possible Non-Correct Language or Actions Ahead! C'mon! As a black, lesbian woman, I could analyse, construe, criticise, and be totally devoid of humour all the livelong day. Nope -- ain't gonna do it. What i like about Seinfeld is that they make fun of themselves and their ultra-selfconscious attempts to be "good liberal open-minded white folks".
If you look back at the show, not once were handicapped people themselves made fun of. Sure, unfortunate things happened to the handicapped woman in the show, but these were done, I think, to amplify the hubris that Kramer and especially George suffered.
All the real insult belongs applied to the characters in the show. And *this* is what makes the show funny - that these people are just as faulted (if not more so) as ordinary people. They are like a concentration of the common populace embodying all the embarrassign situations that happen to you and me.
Sorry about waxing philiosphic, back to our regular scheduled program:
Speaking of which, when is Seinfeld going to *be* regularly scheduled? ;-)
I still wished Jerry and Co. would actually lose something as a result of their stupidity.
At least have someone come out and actually tell them that they're jerks. Especially Geroge and Kramer.
But they shouldn't get off so easy.
I don;t know if you'll even believe it, but I totally oppose PC-ness.
I overeacted to the episode and got carried away with my responses. Initially I had misterpreted the episode and in turn everyone's reactions to it and to my responses.
I don't usually get upset like that, just sometimes there are things I have trouble ignoring.
I still have a sense of humor, although I don't think you will believe that now. I don't blame you.
Perhaps I'm more of a jerk than those who laughed at the episode.
Again I apologize.
It's just so difficult to explain why I was offended by the episode.
C'mon, we're just having a discussion here. Just because some people don't happen to agree with your point of view on this subject doesn't mean you're an outcast.
I know that now- I was very hasty in my response. But I calmed down enough a couple of days later to post an apology, but the hard part is now to convince everyone that it is for real.
I understand the point of the episode now, it just got lost in what I thought was humor done in very poor taste.
I konw they weren't deliberately trying to make fun of the disabled, but I wished they had handled it a little better.
Perhaps it's just me, but I felt that the 'enlightenment' could have been lost in the shuffle, so to speak, of the initial wheelchair jokes.
I'm sorry, but I still think it was in bad taste. I think what irked me the most was the way George seemed to have this 'What did I do' attitude about it. He and Kramer were being ***holes and no one said anything.
I know this feeling very well- I too I'm into science fiction, and was made to feel almost like a criminal for it. I find it offensive when intelligence is depicted in the media as something to be ashamed of.
The Nazi comparison was way out of line. Please accept my apologies for that. I got carried away, I'm sorry.
Somedtimes my situation affects my perceptions of things, sometimes I react with a 'hair-trigger' response to negative things I see or hear.
Usually I can ignore it, but this episode came on the heels of a really lousy couple of weeks I had been having, then I tune in to the episode.
It was very difficult to ignore it. But although I admit overreacting, I still can't fully condone the episode- the producers IMHO should have known better. I know there might have been a message, but it should have been made clearer, and I still think George and Kramer got off too easy.
I know a guy from high school who is like this- he's so much of an ***hole towards people that either he doesn't realize it or else just doesn't care, but he can do the most rotten things to people and can seemingly walk away from the consequences.
I know. I understand....It;s not the material but the motive and intent behind it. It's just that at the time it looked to me like it was meant to offend. I really wished I had taken the time to think about it before flaming about it.
Like I said, I screwed up on this one. One thing I am having to learn is that most people don't have a problem with it, and not to let the few jerks out there ruin things, if that makes sense.
But being different where you can't easily hide it (like being in a wheelchair) tends to put that person on the defensive. At least that has been my experience so far.
I don't usually get that upset, it was just bad timing. I've never blamed anyone.
I think the episode would have gone over better if that clip had been left out. Like I said, it was in bad taste and the producers should have known better.
I know :-) I think I've lost any friends here though- that Nazi crack is about the worst thing any one could use in a flamefest. I've been on the receiving end of things like that, so I know had nasty it can be.
That is why it is so important that everyone knows that I never really meant it. I had calmed down only a day or so after posting it but it was too late.
I still have a sense of humor, and their have been times where I've laughed at myself, but at the time my sense of humor had worn pretty thin.
Here's a personal experience- While in my communications class one day this past spring, I was 'parked' near the front of the classroom just before class started, and a fellow student (also in a wheelchair) was coming in and she bumped into me ( the asile was a bit narrow). I asked her if she was insured and she and everyone else in class got a good laugh out of it.
The first day back from spring break was my first day back at school after having to start using my wheelchair full-time, and she came and told me it was good having someone she could make eye contact with without having to look up....
I thought it was funny :-)
See, I can still laugh. But there are jokes, and then there are really bad jokes, and I'm sorry, but I still think the 5/13 Seinfeld episode crossed the line.
I did enjoy this past week's episode though (Pilot). :-)
I think that the show must have been taken over by the same Liberal Democrats who have been ruining the space program and stranding all earthlings on this planet forever!! Run for the hills!!
(Sorry, Simon, I couldn't resist. For those who don't get the joke, please refer to sci.space. :-P)
Oh, and I'm sorry to stray from the topic of Seinfeld, but...what if the cast of Seinfeld were all left on the moon. Which one could jump the highest? Kramer's got the longest legs, but that George is a real leaper. Anyone know?
So I waste bandwidth...
-Karlucco
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Please. I am a feminist but I still try to avoid the annoying PC overkill that is going on. It was FUNNY, meant to poke fun at people who are insensitive to handicapped spaces and handicapped needs, NOT at handicapped people themselves. If you can't see that, I think the P.C. hysterics have gotten the best of you.
I say Elaine could jump the highest. With the low gravity pull, she weighs the least, so doesn't that mean she'd go higher than the rest?
Folks, folks, folks. It's really quite simple. How absolutely high people can jump is dependent on their strength and on the local gravity. How relatively high people can jump is dependent only on their strength. So, whichever one can jump highest here on terra firma could jump the highest anywhere.
(Dear God. 6 years of engineering school and I'm reduced to this....)
In article [email] (James Lloyd Hill) writes: [email] (Pinky) writes:
Folks, folks, folks. It's really quite simple. How absolutely high people
can jump is dependent on their strength and on the local gravity. How
relatively high people can jump is dependent only on their strength. So,
whichever one can jump highest here on terra firma could jump the highest
anywhere.
(Dear God. 6 years of engineering school and I'm reduced to this....)
Have you never heard of strange attactors? If there's one among the cast, it would most definitely be Kramer. I don't know that much about it, but I'm guessing that your puny Newtonian mechanics would be rendered pretty much irrelevant by the loathsome brute.
9 lines of post and you still didn't answer the question. :-) So, by your reasoning, who can jump the highest on Earth, and hence, upon the moon? (I refuse to let this ridiculously pointless post die.:-P)
I am reminded by a co-worker (hi, Andy) that, though George was *described* by Jerry as a great leaper (in "The Blind Date" [corr. title?]), he was unable to touch the awning. So, my vote goes to Kramer. Sorry, Elaine and Jerry!
(One day 'til the big show.)
-Karlucco
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I'm no rocket scientist but (isn't there an Internet abbreviation for that: INRSB?) ... anyway, INRSB, being the largest character, wouldn't Kramer's spacesuit be the most massive? Does anyone out there want to mail me a serious analysis of this question?
Yep, he'd need a larger suit than any of the others. Shoot, the helmet alone would probably weigh as much as anyone else's suit. Wouldn't want to muss THE HAIR (tm). :-) The suit would have to be lined with wood veneer, too. Just in case... :-) :-) --- tim
What is this- a multi-front flamewar? :-) And 'Liberal Democrat' is far nicer than what I called people with 'anti-space' feelings several years ago.....
Someone would tell a Challenger disaster joke, and I would politely remind them that treason was a capital offense.... :-)
anyway- back to the discussion
Just my luck, I make it to the moon (if NASA would only put a lift on the shuttle and design a wheelchair-accessable lunar lander....) only to find that George has parked his lunar rover in the handicapped space. The curb is blocked and my wheels get bogged down in the lunar soil. Or worse I flip over slowly due to the lower gravity and hope my space suit heltmet will protect me when my head hits the ground. :-)
Of course, I'll have to flame those that might laugh at it :-)
Once again, I fail to see why everyone is being so critical of Seinfeld's treatment of the handicapped issue. That is what is so great about the show, they are not afraid to take on controversial topics. They have lampooned homosexuality, masturbation, goiters, race and sex sensitive topics, the list goes on and on. As long as its done in a tasteful, subtle and Seinfeldesque fashion, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with that.
Now they may have crossed the line with the last episode. But if they just gave us desensitized, dehumanized PC mush, it wouldn't be much of a show, would it???
While attempting to remain on the fence, let me point out that there have already been jokes about overweight people and jokes about gays. Elaine broke up with the triangle artist because he was "too fat". There were a few jokes on that topic.
Another recurring theme has been that of George driving women to lesbianism (and Kramer bringing them back). I'd consider that pretty unfair: to imply that someone would "become" a lesbian because of some guy.
Think about it....
I'd argue that, like it or not, it was already AT this level.
Simon, the point is that many of us *DON'T* think the jokes were about people in wheelchairs, per se. The jokes were about George and Kramer f*ing up at the expense of this person. THE JOKE WAS ON GEORGE AND KRAMER. I laughed my head off thinking, "You guys are *such* idiots!" A $200 wheelchair?! GEORGE GOT HIS FATHER'S CAR TOTALLY DESTROYED AND WAS FORCED TO BUTLER FOR HIM!
If the jokes had been about BEING in a wheelchair or BEING gay/lesbian or BEING black...but in my opinion, they were *not*.
Well, it would be hypocritical if you had *proof* that "WE" (whoever _that_ is) would be outraged in those other situations AND "WE" agreed with your assertions that the jokes put down persons with disabilities...but of course, that remains to be shown.
I don't really want to get into a conflict with you. I just feel like you're taking *your* interpretation, projecting that interpretation onto everyone else, and thus "proving" that we are insensitive hypocrites. There is a bit of flawed logic going on in that proof.
I now understand that. It's just that the episode reminded of difficulties I have all the time, and especially over the past couple of weeks or so, and I took it very personally.
I'm learning not to get so upset about things, but sometimes something comes along that triggers a negative reaction.
I realized only after it was too late that it really was about how much of a jerk George and Kramer were being about the whole thing. But by that time I had already posted my initial comments and now there is no way to stop it. In fact I'm a little upset to see flames coming in after I posted an honest apology.
And I do agree, George and Kramer are idiots. No excuse for their behavior.
I said I was sorry. I misinterpeted everyone's reactions. No one is being hypocritical, it was my mistake.
There was no offense meant against the disabled. I admit there was a huge misunderstanding. But how much do i need to apologize for this?
I have no proof, I made groundless accusations against people, I missed the point of what everyone was saying.
I admit to doing all of these things.
I am sorry.
Flawed logic is an understatement. I totally misinterpreted this whole thing.
Please accept my apologies. And please direct flames to email- the address is real and I will answer even the most negative mail.
I'm not going to argue that the humor wasn't moronic. However, this
isn't the first Seinfeld episode to feature such humor. I didn't particularly
care for it, but the episode about old people was much worse in this regard.
That episode had uniformly negative depictions of older people. This episode
depicted handicapped in no better or worse a light than it depicts average
individuals. I don't see where you feel that the handicapped people in this
episode were depicted in a more negative fashion than the typical peripheral
character on the show.
For instance, in this week's one hour show the characters portraying
the actors/actresses on "Jerry" were a mixed bag: two were portrayed in a more
negative fashion than the handicapped woman (Elaine-not and Kramer-not) and
one more positively (George-not).
I don't think handicapped people were being singled out. If you
weren't offended until this show, I would suggest that shows a double
standard. Older people and people with other disabilities (the bubble boy
comes to mind) were portrayed more negatively.
Okay, so I've been reading this exchange and finding it quite interesting. Just to shift gears a bit...does anyone else find it disturbing that there seems to be relatively no African-Americans in Jerry's world? In New York?! C'mon...
Charlie "just trying to stimulate some thinking" Lindy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ there is a very good black comedian named george wallace, but he is nothing like COSTANZA (spelling confirmed in "THE PILOT"). very loud and very confident and employed.
I had always heard that George is based on Larry David, the co-creator of Seinfeld, and writer of many episodes (also a regular with Michael Richards on the late, lamented Fridays).
I hope I've explained myself on this enough. There are many things that are on TV where the producers ought to have known better (I've said this quite alot but IMHO it's true).
Now that I think about it, I must admit that the way the issue about the insensitivity of others (George parking in the handicapped space) was handled better than it would have been on some other show. I'm glad they didn't resort to the preaching that most sitcoms seem to employ.
If I saw the episode a few months from now I probably wouldn't have been offended by it...
In a previous article, [email] (Simon E. Booth) says:
Come on guys, relax!
I'm handicapped myself, and I had no problem with the episode. I don't think the point was to poke fun at handicapped people at all anyway.
I don't know when the show was taped, but it may well have been a take- off on the parking dispute between Julia Louis-Dreyfus and the mentally- handicapped Tom Arnold.
Hey, after the notorious "bubble boy" episode, I thought last night was tame.
I am as well, I just felt that it was in bad taste. I run into similar problems all the time, and there is no humor in them, like when people hog the elevators or when some moron parks in front of a ramp on the curb.
I hadn't thought of that. For Tom Arnold though, 'mentally handicapped' is a compliment.....
The show was taped a long time before that incident. For some reason it had been delayed.
So? I don't get it?? Please let me in on the joke... aDnolR ?!?!?
On another not, TVGuide said the episode where they walked around the parking garage had been puled from being re-run twice. The author speculated that it was because of the strife between JLD and that childish TA looser. Anyone know how that episode related to TA or his wife, Rosanne?
I don't know. Sure, George's cheap skate nature is the ultimate target of the gag, but there's a lot of "banana peel" in the gag. I think that after the boy in the bubble gags, the semi-senile old people gags, the masturbation gags etc that the "No hugs-no messages" dictum of the writing kind of made a runaway wheel chair gag almost inevitable. I think that if the audience had gotten to meet Lola the gag may have worked better, but I imagine the 22 minute time clock limits what they can do.