OK- look. I'm not a religious fanatic or anything, but just as anyone else, I hold certain opinions about this serious issue. I watched with disgust tonight as the characters totally downplayed the gravity of America's #1 cause of death. Although I thoroughly enjoy watching "Seinfeld" each week and I am not naive to the fact that the gang frequently have discussions on current issues, I don't feel that this was the proper place to bring up the topic. Elaine, in particular, made her feelings known on the show. I personally don't side with her on this issue, but I respect the fact that every one has their own opinion on abortion (even though she's wrong.) But, come on, folks. This should not have been trivialized on the show, as it was offensive to many viewers. Now, I'm not going to stop watching the show, just because they discuss a topic that is controversial. But, I'd just like to put in my two cents worth on this and I hope I hear your responses.
"Seinfeld" not a forum for abortion discussion
In article [email] (Dan Korte) writes:
Hmm....Number 1 cause of death, huh? Where'd you get that one?
First, Elaine and Julia Louis Dreyfus are two different people. Maybe Julia doesn't really feel that way about abortion. ...and even if you did, despite you're saying so, you obviously don't respect her opinion, as you quicky discredit it with no support, other than your more "correct" opinion.
Actually, I believe that the issue should be trivialized, as it plays too much of a role in politics today. People vote for officials based on their stance on this issue. People should vote for officials based on their leadership ability, but unfortunately, that will probably never happen in our society.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Hanna, just wanetd to let you know that that was very well put... I totally agree that some serious issues deserve to be trivialized. Unfortunately, I missed the episode so all I assume is that they made some sort of jokes about abortion??? Or did they just discuss it...
In article , [email] (Christopher Hanna) wrote:
[Dan Korte's message discrediting the 10/27 show's abortion subject]
Regardless of the abortion issue, what does Chris think that voting in a representative government is for? Hitler is widely considered as having absolutely outstanding "leadership abilties". It is also widely held that Hitler played a large part in causing the death of millions of people. Hell, "at least the trains ran on time" right?
Whether your "Pro-Life" or "Pro-Choice" I hope to God you're voting based on your political philosophy. Granted, leadership abilities are important, but not as important as the underlying rational which is the foundation of all of the checks and ballances in our government.
-Bill
In article , [email] (Christopher Hanna) wrote:
Yup, a reference to Hitler so early in the thread.
Chris, are you saying that "leadership" is the *only* way to determine which leader to follow? From what I read in the history books, Hitler was one heck of a leader. The boy had skills! There is this one little problem I had with his values though and I don't think I vote for him in the next election.
BTW, I *do* believe that some people are right and some people are wrong. The trick is to find out who is who, but it's stupid to say we should all accept each other's values. Otherwise, you need to tolerate my intolerance.....
and what *does* this all have to do with Seinfeld? Which, I think, was the original point, that a sitcom was an inappropriate place to discuss abortion.
OK, your turn.
You watched in horror because you wanted to turn a comedy into a news program. In order to keep the "realistic, yet fantasic" personalities of the characters, don't you think it would help if the characters were further defined by some personal opinions? They didn't make jokes about the act of abortion itself, just references to the fact that people feel strongly one way or the other.
You have no right to pronounce that someone is "wrong" on such a moral dilemma. Just because she, in your opinion, is incorrect, that does not make it law. Don't go around claiming you respect the opinions of others and thenm claim them to be wrong anyway. That is being closed-minded.
Almost anything on television can be viewed as offensive to may viewers.
Think about the "Handicapped Parking Space" episode last year or the year
before.
So what I'm saying is this: I, for one, am glad to see a show where the
criteria for dating someone is more extensive than their cheek bone
structure and bank account. In real life, we use opinions on topics such as
abortion to relate with people. In Hollywood, they often forget that. As long
as it's not vulgar, don't try to make more out of it than it is.$e@n
OK - my two cents on the Seinfeld episode (and do not try and use this to figure out where I stand on theissue of abortion because I guarantee you that you will guess wrong)
Interesting points:
- Elaine, when asked by Pepe, what gives you the right... replied "The Supreme Court!" Interesting that this is all she responds with. I wonder if she would have felt the same way in 1970 when the Supreme Court gave the pro-lifers the right to tell her what she could do with her body???
- The show certainly did not portray pro-lifers in a kind light ("Someday, we're gonna get enough people on the Supreme Court to change that...") - it showed them as some grand conspiracy group - which is untrue in most cases.
- I also thought it didn't portray pro-choicers in a positive light. If Elaine is so shallow that she chooses what to eat, buy an who to date on one single issue - then that's pretty sad. It showed pro-choicers as fanatical and pathetic people who live life on one issue and have no respect for those who choose to believe that the baby is alive in the womb.
So there you go. The show really wasn't fair to either side (which is probably the way the writers wanted it to be). Granted, it was up to the reader to see Elaine's shallowness, while the show made sure to condemn the pro-lifers views in the plot and therefore it could be assumed to e more of a pro-choice show, but I really think it was equally unfair to both sides. It was really nothing to get terribly upset about and made for a fairly funny show - although not as funny as some others.
OK, my two cents are up.
- Stephen J. Truog Northwestern University
In article jrm1535, [email] writes:
Look, I'm not a religious fanatic or anything, but it's the *pizza* analogy they used, ok?
Bob "these cucumber people make me sick" Fedun
In article , [email] (Dan Korte) wrote:
Perhaps you should take your own advice, Dan, and keep this issue in the proper forum. I hardly think that this news group is the place to drag that old horse out of its barn. Your post just feeds into the mind set that the gang was SPOOFING on tonights show.
In [email] (Christopher G. Hughes.) writes:
Chris, you hit the nail on the head. The entire point of Elaine's subplot tonight was devotion to single issue politics, when carried to extreme can damage your life in ways you don't think about. Elaine's insistance that her boyfriend (who otherwise was perfect for her in every way) have an identical position on abortion to her resulted in her losing him. The position itself is irrelevant to the point being made. You saw this as the restaurant emptied out of people who didn't like Poppie's abortion stand...and others stayed.
Shuttup about it, no one is really interested in any of your gys opinions, now lets get back to talking about the goddamn show and stop using this newsgroup as a forum for all of you assholes to discuss your stupid political views.
LET IT GO!!!
In article [email] (Dan Korte) writes:
What's the matter "Dan?" Ease up, your a MAN, this is a WOMAN'S issue! A man's opinion on this issue is only worth about 2 cents.
I thank you all for responding to my original post. I have some rebuttals to make, however.
this is a WOMAN'S issue!
This is bullshit. What happens when you get a girl pregnant, and she wants to abort? If you want the kid, what are you gonna do? It's just as much a man's issue as a womans. The only difference is that a woman carries the child.
Well over a million babies are aborted each year, more than any other form of death.
Chris is right on this point. I realize that Elaine is merely a character. I just don't feel the topic should have been made a mockery of.
Just as people vote for candidates who hold the same positions on any other issues important to them, right? Like Clinton's health care/economy boost plan. Central issues will always be a key factor in elections. When you have such controversial issues that you feel strongly about, sometimes they are important enough to elect a certain person to office.
You have no right to pronounce that someone is "wrong" on such a moral
Okay, Sean. You're right; I realize I can't always convert people to see this issue the way I see it. I shouldn't have said I respect the opinions of others because sometimes I just don't.
Sean- again, I can buy this to a point. I, too, often base relationships, or the future of relationships, on the agreement of key issues such as this. If there is disagreement, a decision might have to be made to terminate the relationship if the gap is wide, or perhaps a compromise can be made. On this issue, however, there is no room for compromise as I see it. This is not a topic for a sitcom, though.
Why does it ALWAYS have to be a woman's issue? Of course I realize that the woman carries the physical burden of having a baby, but if she wants child support, then the man HAS to be there. But if she decides to abort the baby, then the man has NO say. Now that hardly seems fair. And Seinfeld did a very ignorant thing by comparing pizza to abortion. That's the problem with our society, we compare the decision to end human life to putting cucumber on a pizza. The show did show how petty and narrowminded many pro-abortionist women are by having Elaine dump that guy, the one she *loved* because he didn't agree with her. What a narrowminded self-centered selfish radical moron.
And by the way, in "The Pick" she said something about her picture going out to Sister Mary Catherine, but she is NOT Catholic.
In article , [email] says:
Uhh, the last time I checked, it was okay to like and dislike whomever you want. I mean, if that issue was that important to her, and it made her dislike the moving guy, then it would be stupid for her to stay with him. And, another thing: by lumping together all pro-choice women in your "narrowminded" group, you have shown your supreme ignorance. If you label all of them on that ONE issue only, then you are precisely what you have spoken against. You ARE one of those people who judges others based on one issue. So the next time you throw the word "moron" around at others, make sure in the course of your argument that you aren't calling yourself a moron as well.
I also think it's okay for a non-Catholic to associate with a Catholic. Man, free your mind, and enjoy a rich comedy for what it is meant to be, not what you fear it might become.
$e@n
[email] wrote:
I liked the epsiode. It showed how people can hate people if they don't agree with them. I did like the cucumber analogy :)
In article , [email] says:
The show did show how petty and narrowminded
You must remember that Elaine IS a selfish fairly superficial character on Seinfeld... We still like her, but she has a history of doing self-centered things... I.E.- buying Jujy fruits before going to see her boyfriend that got hit by the car, or dating the Mimbo, male bimbo Dan Cortez! So I don't think the writers could have done otherwise, it wouldn't be Elaine... That's all part of the humor in her and you shouldn't relate that to "many pro- abortionist women"... -Fred House
Well, here goes. I swore I wouldn't jump into this thread, but here I am!
I didn't find her dumping the guy to be narrow-minded or radical. When an issue is that important to a person (as it obviously was to Elaine), it can be a major obstacle in a relationship. I have dated people who did not feel the same way as I do, and when I found out it never was the same afterwards. I didn't break up with them because of it, but you know that it will never work permanently. It's like dating someone of a very different religion, if religion is important to you. I also think this is true if you feel strongly on either side.
Now storming out of the restaurant because she wouldn't EAT anywhere where the owner was pro-life--that was self-centered, selfish, radical and moronic.
In [email] (Tracy McCracken) writes:
Yes, but it was exemplary of the overwrought reactions to which the Seinfeld gang are inclined . . . it was the very improbability and strained logic of the reaction that made it funny . . . The issue could have been any of a hundred . . . but the pro-life/pro-choice dichotomy is one that everyone recognizes as raising strong emotions, so the situation could maintain a surface logic. (As a contrast, Poppy's rage over cucumbers on pizza exemplified obsessive inflation of something of absolutely no recognizable importance.) But I overanalyze . . .
Ken Umbach
On 11 Nov 1994, Kenneth Umbach wrote:
I agree with this... remember when everyone began eating their dessert with a knife and fork, and in the end elaine shouts, "What is WRONG with you people? Have you all gone MAD???" like you said, Ken, the gang over-react to everything... and especially elaine (fur coats, exlamation points..etc etc... ) elaine likes to cause public disturbances... I support that. =)
-lil> >
In article , wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I sick to death of this phrase. You pro-lifers just love it don't you. I bet you think of us like that. We're a bunch of bloodthirsty dogs with our coathangers, itching to perform those abortions. I bet you think we hang out at the Women's Clinic, trying to talk all pregancy patients into having them. No, we do not, nor will we ever, encourage abortions. But we feel that there certainly many circumstances that warrant a necessary termination. Like rape, incest, or lack of funds. Why force a woman to bring a baby into the world when she cannot afford it? But anyway, this is a Seinfeld newsgroup, not an abortion discussion newsgroup, so that's all I have to say on the subject.
I agree that the phrase is inaccurate. Its obvious that its used to guarantee a desired response. It gives the impression that such people encourage abortion--this is generally not the case.
My feeling is that a phrase describing those who feel a certain way on a controversial issue should be able to be reversed. In short, "pro-choice" is an accurate phrase because it is accurate to say that those who feel the opposite are anti-choice. However, "pro-life" is not as accurate because it implies that those who feel otherwise are anti-life. Saying that you feel that abortion should be a legal option is not being anti-life.
This reminds me in some ways of a Doonesbury strip of years past in which Joan Caucus is called in at the last minute to sub for someone who was set to debate Phyllis Schafly. Joan wants to be briefed. The head of her group says, "Her main line is that she's pro-family, pro-life, pro-America, and pro-G-d." Joan responds, "And I'm *against*?"
All the above IMHO, of course.
gary
C'mon, Dan. Gimme a break. Did you post your comments just to stir up debate about an issue that has nothing to do with this group? Because, in fact, last night's show was not about abortion, but about how the topic ellicits such strong reaction in people---reactions which often are quite hilarious. Not once in the show were the merits of abortion discussed, and herein lies the brilliance of the episode. Once again, Seinfeld manages to mine the comedic gold of an issue that winds people up so tight that they don't realize how funny they look.
Mike
To the one who started this thread complaining that Seinfeld should not take on such a serious issue especially if they were going to take the "wrong" side:
That's what this show *does* in many of its finest moments.
They often find a way to handle the touchiest subjects in a way that all can appreciate and laugh at. It's brilliant *comedy*, satirizing common mores.
If you want to tell us why the jokes worked or didn't work, that would be more pertinent. But are you seriously going to fault the show for having characters who disagree with you, especially when the show is satirizing, not endorsing, Elaine's point of view?
I wonder, did you object when they handled issues in a way that might have turned off some liberals (Bubble Boy, et al.)? You're right: alt.tv.seinfeld is not a forum for abortion discussion.
In [email] (Dan Korte) writes:
"Trivializing" an issue is a charge often made nowadays against people who disagree with us. Dan, you are certainly entitled to take offense at this particular Seinfeld episode, but I think your post displays an unfamiliarity with one of the purposes of humor: to help us keep our sanity when dealing with concepts that are too morbid to face on a completely serious level.
An analogy: when a Jew makes a joke about the Holocaust, do you believe she is "trivializing" it or simply trying to allow herself to think about the unthinkable?
IMHO a successful comedian or comedy series *needs* to take the risk that some viewers will find their material offensive; else they risk declining into the sort of sleep-inducing blandness that we get from a Jay Leno, an Arsenio Hall, a Pat Sajak, etc.
Larry Sherman
I agree with you Larry. I didn't mind the abortion topic being discussed, even though I'm pro-life. Dennis Miller did a great monologue about PC showing its ugly head in comedic performances. Shock me, I can take it. Unfortunately, thie 10/27 show was a terrible failure for other reasons. George's character has been reduced to being a complete asshole who no sane person would have anything to do with. Jerry was an immature geek trying to tease Elaine like a school child. Elaine's character never has been seriously developed. Kramer is getting old, and only the Neumanns of the show and Seinfeld's girlfriends make the show watchable.
The show has gone down the tubes. It once was the best, its now like the rest. I hoping for improvement, but unfortunately, RIP Seinfeld.
Michael Smith Wheeling, WV
Excerpts from netnews.alt.tv.seinfeld: 28-Oct-94 "Seinfeld" not a forum for .. by Dan [email]
else, I
disgust tonight
of death.
issues, I don't
particula
on this
abortion
and I hop
Seinfeld has done this before with the Schindler's List/Close Talker episode: Write about a serious topic and mock it in both a blatant way (Making out during movie/Ask everyone their opinions on abortion) and subtle way (last scene of Schindler's list episode/when does a pizza become a pizza conversation).
So not only is it in poor taste, it is also old.
Dan Korte ([email]) wrote:
"OK- look. I'm not a religious fanatic or anything, but just as anyone else, I hold certain opinions about this serious issue. I watched with disgust tonight as the characters totally downplayed the gravity of America's #1 cause of death."
WHAT!? You mean the characters were talking about CANCER!?
"Although I thoroughly enjoy watching "Seinfeld" each week and I am not naive to the fact that the gang frequently have discussions on current issues, I don't feel that this was the proper place to bring up the topic. Elaine, in particular, made her feelings known on the show. I personally don't side with her on this issue, but I respect the fact that every one has their own opinion on abortion (even though she's wrong.)"
Dude, if you think this isn't the place to discuss it, then why are you bringing up your own personal views? You completely contradicted your reasons for writing this post in the above two sentences!
__
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ | Tom Schnorrenberg
_/ _/ _/ _/ | Sigma, Delta Beta '96
_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ | UMass-Amherst
_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ | "Let your light so shine be-
_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ | fore men that they may see your
_/ _/ _/ _/ | good works and glorify your
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/_/ | Father Who is in Heaven."I am glad to see that some people are so open to controversy. NOT. You have to remember that the gang on Seinfeld are very liberal people. For the writers to decide not to include a controversial would be going against one of the shows main ideas. Discussing everyday events and making a mockery out of them. You say that you are interested in what other people have to say but I doubt it. Not when you make a comment like:
"Elaine, in particular, made her feelings known on the show. I personally don't side with her on this issue, but I respect the fact that every one has their own opinion on abortion (even though she's wrong.)"
You don't really respect other peoples opinions which are "wrong". I am curios to see how everyone else feels about this.
I thought it was very funny. I would have dreaded a Murphy Brown episode on the same subject -- it would probably end up just preaching to the converted. I thought both Poppy and Elaine ended up looking silly. Jerry, of course, had the sanest point -- if you're going to hold up something to one standard, you have to hold everything (and everybody) up to that same standard. Of course, this was taken to ridiculous extremes. What I thought was funniest about it, however, was that Jerry ended up ruining all these things through his own "good intentions." (As you can probably tell, I'm trying to steer clear of "THE ISSUE." DAve
In the wacky world of "Seinfeld," Elaine quits dating the "moving man" because he doesn't agree with her pro-choice stance. The dimensions of the issue of abortion were neccessarily flattened out in order to allow the characters to poke fun at single-issue politics. I didn't have a problem with this because I accepted that I was watching a television show, a comedy, and not real life.
However, what MAY be a problem is this: In the "real" world, a pro-choice woman like Elaine would very likely have done the same thing, but for a different reason: She wouldn't want to run the risk of getting pregnant by a man who didn't approve of abortion. She wouldn't have quit dating him solely because he didn't agree with her; the issue of who controlled her body would be involved, she would making her decision taking into account that which goes well beyond the level of opinion. This dimension of the issue was left out, as it had to be, admittedly, and to this extent, the issue was trivialized. I think this was unfortunate. Television shows---even ones that are about nothing ;*)---clearly help people clarify their feelings on political issues, as can be seen from the heated discussion here, and at some point, have to keep in mind that responsibility.
"Seinfeld" walks the line between good and bad taste quite often, one of its great features. Sometimes it succeeds in being silly, and sometimes there is a "forcing," that ends up offending. Usually, they do well, but I felt that this episode came too close to being in bad taste to be as comically effective as, for instance, the homosexuality episode.
Marianna Wright
(I will not post again on this subject. I think it's a good idea for everyone to spout off once on whatever they feel about this---and IMHO, Dan Korte's initial post on the subject was tolerant, courteous and thoughtful, and he didn't deserve the flaming he got---but let's move it to whatever groups exist for discussion the topic, by all means!)
In light of every thing that's been said on this issue I just want to say one thing about Seinfeld... Thank god that at the end of the episode they didn't play cheesy music and all learn a lesson about life!! It's so refreshing to see a comedy that IS a comedy, and does not see the need to teach a lesson... Seinfeld made a point of doing just that, as he said in one of his interviews... That's part of the reason the shows been so succesfull.... -Fred House
I feel that Seinfeld was not in poor taste for simply attributing a position, even a strong position, to one of its characters. Seinfeld is a TV show about people, and what people do and think, and people do believe in and think about certain political positions.
In other words, the show was great. And, off the topic, George's capers were worth watching the show for all by themselves. :)