Fans debate MANAA's successful push to remove a racial slur from Seinfeld reruns, with opinions divided on censorship and the show's treatment of minority groups.
this bigot (see below) reminds me. ...
the latest MANAA newsletter (i got it yesterday) tells me that MANAA finally got the racist TV show "Seinfeld" to edit out the racial slur "Chinaman".
an NBC executive promised to edit out the racial slur from all the future rebroadcasts.
see also: Seinfeld burning the flag of Puerto Rico.
In article ,
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
Of course, that won't be hard. NBC won't be airing any more Seinfelds.
Absolutely! You just *know* that a split-second after the NBC execs hung up the phone they were high-fiving each other and laughing about it.
Personally, I can't wait for "The Puerto Rican Day" to be shown in
syndication for the first time. Screw the voluntarily hypersensitive
twits, "Seinfeld" must live on!!!
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-----------------------------------------------------------------Its interesting how soem people view people of color.
It's interesting how some people see racism where none exists.
It's interesting how some people over-quote.
It's interesting how some people over-quote.
"Chinaman" a racial slur? Oh pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese. "Chink", yes. But "Chinaman?" That's ridiculous.
I think there are different levels of inappropriatness when it comes to racial and ethnic terms. Calling someone a "Negro" for example is much better than the other N word, but it still smacks of an old fashioned potentially bigoted mindset. When the Chinese were first called "Chinamen" most of them (in the West and its colonies) were second class citizens to say the least so the word (like "Negro") has a certain guilt by association--conjuring up images of coolies working from dawn to dusk on the railroad lines for a penny a day, etc.. Also, the word is sexist. At least half of them are women. That is why saying "Chinese" or "Chinese American"(if the person in question is American) is better. Of course, as I have argued before, Seinfeld has only used the term as a joke on the person USING it, so I think it should stay in the sindicated episodes.
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Mike Wagner wrote in article :
You'd better tell Merriam Webster's publisher; Webster's New Collegiate defines it as: chinaman: a native of China: often taken to be offensive.
So, Merriam Webster's publisher bowed to the pressure put upon him/her by the same ultrasensitives who want to sensor what I get to see and hear. If this crap keeps up, I'm going to end up forgetting that I live in the USA.
Still, I'll consider it a push, because the Tanaka types were probably
hoping to have it removed from the dictionary and banned from the
language forever, and all they got was the little disclaimer that it
might be offensive to Chinamen.
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-----------------------------------------------------------------On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:14:32 -0400, Dave wrote:
Hi Mr Antonoff,
Are you a slav by the way (from your surname)? What do you wish to see?
The US has always been rather puritanical. Yes, it's is disheartening that there are laws against indecent exposure. Can you imagine you may be fined for wearing a speedo thong bikini? Imagine that.
Corporations has always tried to censor what's on TV. Does it bother you? For example, some gas company didn't want a documentary of the Nuremburg Trials to contain the word "gas."
Why would they remove that word? It's historical.
[email] wrote:
3rd generation American. But you sure as hell won't see me using any hyphenated crap. Ukranian-American? Gimme a break.
Everything. I want to be the one to decide what I see and don't. I'd like to think I'm mature enough to be my own sensor. I think the heavier racial slurs that are based in hate (like "chink" or "nigger") don't belong as they are often used as amotionally charged verbal weapons, I find borderline slurs (like chinaman or redneck) to be absolutely harmless. Jeez. ever heard of Jeff Foxworthy? He's a stand-up comedian who's turned a simple redneck joke into a multi million dollar bank account. I can only imagine a similar situation in Tanaka's world. Instead of selling out concert halls and making people laugh, he'd end up being shamed for life and having to commit hari kari (and I really don't care that I'm spelling it wrong or using it incorrectly. Welcome to America. Get a helmet.)
Puritanical and hypocritical. Did you know that the US Congress passed an Internet Decency bill one day after the Kenneth Starr Sex report showed up on hundreds of Internet sites? I must be protected from accidentally seeing a female breast on the Internet, but I can read about an intern inserting a cigar into her vagina???
You've never seen Quebecois tourists on Miami Beach, have you? Imagine the largest, whitest (almost blue) chunk of fishbelly cellulite you've ever seen straining behind 4 square inches of spandex. Maybe some of these laws have vcalidity. :)
Yes it does bother me. How stupid do they think I am? Like I'm going to stop using natural gas because the product happens to have some less than acceptable uses? I'm offended by how low their opinions are of the average intelligence of the viewers. And this is a War crime trial documentary, this is not some BS Saturday cartoon or Oprah/Rosie/Springer trash. This is something you'd EXPECT that a slightly more advanced class of people might be watching.
Maybe Tanaka is trying to escape his heritage? I don't know. And
frankly, I don't care to waste time pondering it.
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-----------------------------------------------------------------Dave a �crit dans le message ...
I resent that :)
Mo
Sorry Mo, you know it's not personal. But then you must know what I'm
talking about. While I can appreciate that these folks are comfortable
enough with their bodies to not be embarrassed to be seen in public, I
cannot condone the act of a 300 lb. man wearing a jewel sack. Jeez, if
oversensitive Asians can piss and moan about the use of the word
'Chinaman', I'm *sure* I can grumble about the occasional Canadian
swimsuit judgement error. <g>
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-----------------------------------------------------------------Dave wrote:
En r�ponse, Mohamel a �crit...
Dave innocently responded:
Mike explained.
Dave, if you had used the word Canadian I think ''I" would have responded with the 'resentment' but you singled out Les Qu�b�cois. So I think Mo was insulted, to paraphrase Seinfeld, 'not as a Canadian' but 'as a Qu�b�cois'. But you are correct, the French are much more sophisticated and confident in their sexuality as compared to us uptight Anglos. This is all in good fun of course. Mo is cool.
And sorry, that may have been me on the Beach last March. Too much rain though.
The News Guy(Mike) a �crit dans le message ...
Imagine
with
and
in
Actually I think we are (as a nation) only comfortable to do this because we're 2000 miles from home.
Mo
Interesting point. The only Canadian license plates I ever see are the ones that say "Je Me Souviens". I wasn't even aware that non-Quebecois Canadians even visited Miami Beach. (And bonus points to me for spelling it correctly. I could have called them "Quebeckers" <g>). Am I mistaken? What do the non-French plates look like? Also white with blue lettering?
But then, to put this in the perpective of the original post title, I don't think Mo was *really* insulted, simply because of the way I said what I said, and because of the obvious joviality behind my message. When the context is playful and lighthearted, can a word really be negatively emotionally charged?
Europeans in general, I believe. Although I'm sure this opens me up for plenty of protesting from the folks who think 'Chinaman' is a slur. They'll say I'm negatively stereotyping an entire continent's worth of people. Sigh.
No problem. But next time please, for your own safety, please try to cross the street when the sun dips behind a cloud. Otherwise, the glare could cause traffic accidents. :)
***** Regarding the discussion below.... I think it's a "European thing" (badly built guys wearing ridiculously tiny 'sling shot' swimsuits in public.)
Years ago I was in Singapore at a hotel pool. There were a bunch of German tourists. Most of the men were rather chubby, middle-aged white guys laying out in the hot sun (turning bright pink or lobster red) wearing these 'thongs' so that their bellies were sort of hanging over............. yugh! What's that all about?
I mean, if a guy's got a body like that, why wear such a swimsuit. These fat European guys looked like big eggs with rubber bands on 'em.
This is just an honest observation. (I travel A LOT.) I've seen this strange sight many places! I mean, to me it's like seeing some big fat woman wearing spandex biker pants. Maybe give him/her bonus points for "boldness" but a zero for good taste!
My wife (who is Chinese) and I have also noticed that for some reason German women with the biggest butts wear the skimpiest shorts that don't cover the cheeks. Once we had the misfortune to be walking behind a bunch of husky German hikers.... we tried so hard not to laugh.
Well, I'm prepared to be flamed. (For the record, 1) I have a flawless body.... just kidding!.... and 2) there are certainly nice looking Germans with good figures--ironically, they probably dress more modestly than the fat ones I've seen on several continents during their (sometimes alcohol fueled) holidays!!!)
In article , [email] wrote:
with
[email] wrote:
Europeans tend to be fatter than Americans because they live in colder climate.
On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:40:27 -0400, Jim Tsou wrote:
Not a chance! Americans are famous for being fat. We are the McDonalds culture remember? The Europeans still eat mostly finer foods in smaller amounts, like wine, bread, and cheese. We on the other hand are sitting our fat asses in the drive through waiting for that bucket of greasy chicken at KFC. One reason for this is that Ameicans work more than Europeans. We have many two income families, so the woman don't prepare decent food in the home like they used to. -Tom
I tend to think, and HOPE, that we are all the same. Man was designed to carry extra weight to get through lean winters. Well, in the 1st World countries, that ain't an issue anymore. As such, each year, we tend to put on a few extra pounds (or in Europe: Kilos :) ) And you are right, there ARE a lot of nice looking German babes out there :) I think rather than blaming a culture, we'd be better off passing some kind of laws in regards to 'Thong' type bathing suits based on Body Mass Index (BMI). 1) Any number greater than 26, NO THONG! 2) Men: NO Thong!
That should clear it up :)
In article , gstevens@'ihatespam'sno.net wrote:
Germans
fat
fueled)
***** I would support such a bill whole-heartedly. :) :) But, based on what I've seen, I don't think you'd get European buy-in to such restrictions! ;) I think, like many things other than fashion in this world, it must be a cultural thing! Not a problem unless they travel to places like Singapore, Canada, or the USA (three places I've seen fat Euro guys wearing slingshot swimsuits and flaunting their obese tummies in public. Same for chubby German girls with hamhocks for buttocks wearing too-short shorts......... what can I say other than: Wenn fette deutsche M�dchen und Frauen feste kurze Hosen tragen m�chten, um ihre grossen Unterseiten anzuzeigen, gibt es kein Gesetz, das solches Verhalten, leider verbietet!
:) to translate (and laugh at my stinko German)go to:
http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate?
On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, Jim Tsou wrote:
No way, the USA is the fattest nation on earth! That's a fact. It's all those Twinkies.
Tim
In article ,
fat
fueled)
**** I read a news article about a month ago which noted that until fairly recently approximately one-third of Americans were clinically obese. Now, it said, that figure has increased to nearly one-half. If this is the trend, where/when does it end?
How do we react to such a finding? Find it troubling, or laugh it off? I recall, as a kid, the president's initiative on fitness. (We took it seriously in public schools.) Now, Clinton's too busy eating cheesburgers and whatever I guess to raise such an issue. But kids AREN'T getting as much exercize as in prior years, people ARE eating much more fast and prepared, convenience foods (high fat), and aesthetics aside, it is a health matter. I don't think people should starve themselves to fit some preconceived notion of beauty, but take a walk around a shopping mall at Mr. & Mrs. J.Q. Public and consider the provocative question: Are we becoming a nation of fat slobs?
Ooooops. Lunch time--gotta run!
In article , wrote:
It's easy to achieve alarming results like this if you just redefine "obese" to be a less stringent standard than previously. Which is exactly what "they" did.
If you live in the US, you can just open your eyes and look around. Are there a lot of overweight people? Sure. More, per capita, than in other developed countries? Probably. Are *half* "clinically obese"? No way no how. Someone's fibbing.
The interesting part of this collection of factoids, to me, is the one that says obesity is the #1 health problem of Americans living below the poverty line. Again, applying the "look around you" test, I can easily believe this one. The irony is that it costs less to eat healthily than to eat poorly.
Good thing I only need one hand to type, so I can hold this pizza (extra cheese, of course) with the other while I post . . .
J.D. Baldwin wrote in message ...
And if you're good, we won't ask how you developed that one-handed typing skill! <g>
In article , David Migicovsky wrote:
Ah, no, *that* would be exercise. Can't have that.
Nope. Ya gotta hire someone else to do it.
"Psst. I need your hand for a few minutes. You need a job?"
Every province has its own license plate, just like all the states. The "Je me Souviens" plate belongs to Quebec. New Brunswick's just say "New Brunswick", with a picture of a small ship, and have red letters.
We now return to alt.tv.seinfeld.
pkirby a �crit dans le message ...
Funny thing though, "Je me souviens " means "I remember" but for the life of me I can't remember what I'm supposed to remember! Ontario plates such as our friend " The News guy" are also white and have blue lettering (dark blue) but it reads "Keep it beautiful". I guess Quebecers (sp?) is allright but Quebecermen I'd find offensive :-)
Mo
Mohamel wrote:
Actually, my Ontario plates say... Yours To Discover
That tells you how old my plates are. I have not purchased a new car in the past 8 years to get the newer plates that now say... Keep It Beautiful. (Here we just put stickers on old plates each year to renew the license)
The News Guy(Mike) a �crit dans le message ...
the
I guess it was discovered enough and people made a mess of the place so now they are telling us to keep it beautiful .. makes sense.
(I still can't remember) Mo
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:18:12 -0400, Dave wrote:
So what about Irish who have recently come to this country or their predecessors who still see themselves as "Irish." Do you think the Irish are wrong for emphasizing their original ethnicity or the jews calling themselves jews?
You mean "censor?" I agree. I think it's dangerous if NBC censors Seinfeld episodes. After all, the character Peterman is supposed to be a bit daff right?
Barely. He's not funny to me. So I ignore him.
I think Pat Morita had a career pointing out his ethnicity.
Well, I hope the Republicans are not behind it. <grin> In light of the fact they wanted to have the report and Clinton's video testimony to be televised.
Yeah. The problem is that once you see it and turn away in revulsion, it's too late. That image is burned into your memory! :)
The interesting thing is that unfortunately the press or media does control people in a way. Evey coup d'etat requires the control of the television and radio stations. So the control of the media is important and it does have an impact or can on how people feel. After all that's why we have propaganda, spin doctors, pundits like Buchanan, and other assorted propagandists.
Well, Tanaka is a japanese surname. What I meant was that the word is historical just like "nazi" or "holocaust." You don't get rid of it because of the stigma attacked. Even the term you referred to, "redneck" is not as bad as "white trash."
It's never simple because I thought you would want Ukranians to be belittled constantly in the media. In Europe, slavs always were looked down upon by western europe.
Dave wrote:
Merriam Webster also says "whitey", "white trash", "redneck", and "cracker" are racial slur for people of european descent, too. Do you consider these terms offensive? How would you feel someone kept calling "hey-you-stupid" all the time? I suppose you are not very sensitive so it really doesnot matter does it? You dont care what people call you? I know most people have names and would like to be properly addressed and referenced. However, you might be the exception. The dictionary publishers usually attempt to indicate popular and accepted usage of a word. Most of the time the term "chinaman" is used in the disparging manner. Most of my older books on china and the chinese by whites do use "chinaman" is disparging manner.
offensive word are listed in the dictionaryjust so people can identify them when people like you use them.
archaic word are sometimes removed (but not always) because they are infrequently used.
if you repeat the word "chinamen" one million times each year in the middle of Time Square, New York City, New York I guess that the publishers will keep it the dictionary just for you.
Not at all. I've used many of those terms myself, especially "white trash" and "redneck", and often when watching COPS on Fox. "Whitey" and "cracker" are black street slang terms for white people. They've been in use for a very long time, and I have no problem with people using those words. Unless there's hate behind them.
Depends. Am I stupid? If I am, then you may call me that. If a man if Chinese, I can't see a thing wrong with calling him a Chinaman. It's a matter of common sense really.
No, not really.
Within reason, no.
You overgenerale your own personal belief. I object to the "I know most people" part of your statement. You certainly DO NOT know most people.
One of many many exceptions. Do you really think you're in the majority here?
Yeah. Chinaman = man from China. real disparaging.
"Most of my older books on China"? Jeez, what is this, an obsession with you?
Another misguided opinion. This is certainly NOT the reason dictionaries include "offensive" words. You need to get over yourself a little.
So maybe someday if people all stop using the word Chinamen... Keep dreaming.
I guess you are an idiot, judging by this last statement.
Dave wrote:
In recent times, I even found that the term *white* causes some people ofeuropean descent to get angry or very defensive. It seems to be part of the *white/black* USA racial conflicts.
Your identity is usually a combination of you and the people you associate with in the past, currently, and who you expect to in the future.
you are ethno-centric.
Definitions are about meaning and connotation it is not about common sense.
Consider the following. ================================= would you invest in a chinamen's business? would you buy from a store owned by a chinaman? Is it okay for a chinamen to be your boss? would you follow orders from a chinaman? Do you treat a chinamen with respect? Would you hire a chinamen? Would you live in a neighbor where there is a significant number of chinamen? Do you socialize with chinamen? :-) Do you think chinamen are good looking? Would you support a chinaman to marry into your family? Are chinamen reasonable?
I thought so.
Whose reasoning?
yours?
or mine? :-)
Would it not be reasonable to call you
an ethno-centric jerk? :-P
If you dont care
how others perceive your references to them
then you shouldnot care
how other reference you.Is there justice in reciprocity? Do you agree?
This is a reality.
It is not quanity. It is quality. I do have a multi-cultural background. I believe my I have a better sampling than you.
I found the majority of people in this world fairly sensitive. you are no exception. I found people of european-descent can be very sensitive, too. Especially, if you said they were doing something racially insensitive or if you treated them with less than what they deem to be *ordinary* and *normal* respect..
Forget about books.Goback to your TV.
Not an opinion - A fact.
Not a dream, but a process.The english language is a dynamic living language.
The world may appear static in your head but that is because your TV is not plugged in.
Something just to humour you! :-) I thought that you may want to do something silly and outrageous like rant and rave to the dictionary publishers. :-P Maybe a "Seldfield" like-protest??? :-)
ratboy, dont be silly! ;-)rant all you like.
Walter, don't waste time with "Stupid."
Noope. Taint reasonable. He's an asshole and that's all there is to it.
walter lee wrote:
Oh Boy A Contest!!!
Yes,
Yes - do it all the time
Yes - couldn't be worse than my last boss
As much as I follow orders from anyone
As much as I treat anyone else with respect
Yes - I have
I live in Toronto - does that answer your question
Yes - in fact my son's friend's dad Mr. Ing invited me to play pool last night.
(to stay on topic)As George would say...uh...uh... I don't know...As Jerry would say of Chinese women- if you LIKE their race it isn't racism.
I would not envy him, but yes.
Not if they want to marry into MY family
:-)
Englishman, Scotsman, Chinaman, - substitute any and the answers would be the same and I'll bet Dave would answer the same way. Just because a person supports free speech in the arts does NOT mean they are racist, rednecks, or prejudiced. That is one of the problems with the PC lobby; by including all people, reasonable and not, in the same basket the political backlash looks like racism when it is not.
Anyway...If a Chinese person (is that OK) asked me not to use the word I wouldn't, even though I was not using it to demean the person. But I would also support a person's right to free speech to use it, or any other word - even those that were offensive to me personally like - Gwy Low. It is not the word itself but how it is used that is important. But that is too subtle for our media to differentiate so all words are bad if they even hint at ethnic or racial identification.
Replace Toronto with Ft. Lauderdale (not many Chinamen, lots of Cuban folks though), and obviously I never played pool with Mr. Ing, but other than that, you mirror my thoughts almost exactly.
I think that's the key. And that's why I find the push to have certain words removed from context without any real understanding of the context the word is used in to be far too PC for the average person's tastes.
Dave wrote:
the use of proper references to individuals and cultures is about creating friendship, good manners, decorum, and being diplomatic.
it is not about free speech! pleading free speech is a poor/inadqeuate defense.
for people who dont understand a bout free speech in the USA ----------------------------------------------------------------- The orgins of free speech in the USA is base on the need to faciliate proper discourse.
That proper discourse was necessary for a public forum so all manners of governing
could be discussed to hear all pros and cons of all sides. This would allow all the
ablity to have their peace and hence promote a sense of community.You are still free to say what you want but there is a consequence to everything you say. As a public figure - everything you say is up for public scrutiny and comment. As a public figure in a public forum you also get a reputation. A public opinion will be form of you. That is why some people use Alias (e.g. ratboy) so avoid the full consequence of those actions. The need to be anonyomous on the net is a point of contention with some law makers who feel that it may invite or promote reckless and irresponsible behavior.
Since you refuse to use the dictionary or listen to other who are in the know - there is no hope for you.
It is not an average person's taste but rather it is your own personal taste that you promote.
.
walter lee wrote: <snip - ranting about free speech>
Sorry Walter,
I believe Dave DOES speak from an average person's taste. He does not have an ax to grind - He seems to be neither a flaming racist nor a ranting minority advocate. He is just saying people can say what they want and if it is done for a reason that is not intentially meant to hurt people it DOES fall under your (USA) right to free speech.
Funny - I did not see any comments from Tanaka and his cohorts- in the name of racial harmony - request that the "Gwy Lo" comment be removed from the Bruce Lee movie. And it should not be removed - it reflected the true attitude from some conservative Chinese that Bruce should not be have been teaching martial art secrets to 'White Ghosts' - as you know this is a demeaning term used by some Chinese towards Whites. It was in a major film. But Dave, I, and probably you would agree that it had a historic and valid artistic reason to be used.
Cheers Keep up the fight - those windmills are getting closer and closer. :-)
As I couldn't have said it better, or more plainly, I'm done with this
silly thread. It has no place in the Seinfeld newsgroup.
Interestingly enough, soc.culture.asian-american is chock full of this
type of thread. Draw your own conclusions.
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-----------------------------------------------------------------Dave wrote:
My remarks were not in regards to free speech but to speech in poor taste and the acceptance of the definition of "chinaman" in the english dictionary My post is a reply to your xpost to soc.culture.asian.american
SCAA seems to attract a group hypersensitive people whowant asians and asian-americans to fit into simplistic stereotypes. When these asian stereotype are broken they get upset and angry.
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:33:31 -0400, Dave wrote:
The common consensus is that it's a racial slur.
Actually he is. No offense.
Then what about the dreaded "N" word? Or "Negro?" Or "colored?" To me, it's simple common courtesy. If people feel offended, then I don't use it.
Actually, I don't believe it was disparaging since Mark Twain even used that term. The problem is that somehow that word "became" a slur. I haven't figured that out yet.
This word is rarely used. I think oriental or asian or the specific asian ethnicity is more common to describe asians or asian americans.
In article , [email] said:
Common sense must be informed by historical knowledge if it's to be of any use. If the word "Chinaman" has had offensive or derogatory connotations in American/Western culture in the past few centuries, then it's perfectly reasonable for people to find its use offensive today.
No, they listened to people who are at the stick end of the insult.
If this crap keeps up, I'm going to end up forgetting that I live
You've already forgotten. Basically, son, you're telling met that you don't care what the people involved say, it aint an insult noway, nohow.
Reminds me of Archie Bunker.
On 21 Sep 1998 16:59:27 GMT, [email] (R. Tang) wrote:
Hi Roger. As a creative person don't you think it's troubling that a commercial work of art is being censored?
[email] wrote:
I find your use of the word "son" to hbe condescending and demeaning. Please refrain from using it in the future unless you are referring to a person who fits the seemingly universally accepted Merriam Webster definition. Thank you.
And as far as what I find insulting and what I find acceptable, the words themselves have very little to do with it. My feelings stem more from the intent and context then from the word. For the most part, it's the less educated among us who will hear a particular grouping of vowels and consonants and AUTOMATICALLY assume it's negatively charged and racially or xenophobically motivated.
On a similar tangent, Kramer's burning of the Puerto Rican flag was only seen as insulting by those who were unable to seperate the act from the reason it occured and the fact that these fools were able to affect change in what I get to see and what I don't is an absolute disgrace.
Ahhh. Archie Bunker; the main character of one of the most popular sitcoms in the history of television. Why do you suppose that was? Care to draw any conclusions?
Thanks for bringing that up because that's really at the cheart of the problem.
Because some people are offended by something, and simply ignoring what offends them (despite how simple that solution is) doesn't seem to be an option, I have to suffer for it. The US Constitution is supposed to protect me from stuff like that.
[email] wrote:
For some reason, you only responded to the last little portion of my post, when I really wanted to read your thoughts on the first few points I've tried to make. If you don't mind, couldja go back and take care of that? Thanks.
Of course. Which is why his so-called slurs are an essential part of his character and it's obvious he doesn't use them with derogatory undertones. So if the most important component is the "intent", why do the Tanaka types go nuts over them?? Are they too dense to understand characterization or do they just not care about anything beyond railing against the simple utterance of a word they don't like?
On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 07:44:39 -0400, Dave wrote:
I thought you were responding to R. Tang and Mike Wagner. I didn't really think there was anything motivating me to respond except my comment about the nature of censorship from a political standpoint (ie censorship usually refers to government censorship)
I think that's looking too much into that. I think Peterman is sort of close to Archie Bunker where both make silly racist remarks and everyone laughs at the characters for their ignorance and arrogance. Peterman is far more clueless than Bunker. I think that's why Peterman gets away with things while Bunker is sort of a pseudo cinema verite working class guy.
Well let's ignore Tanaka for a second. How do you define intent? First, if you look at the history of American media and portrayals of blacks, they were seen as comedic buffoons. So the intent was to make people laugh by mocking blacks.
Being a slav, I assure you if Peterman went on mocking slavs you wouldn't take it so kindly though you may laugh and accept it. After all, the film Goodfellas shown on tv had a notice that the portrayals didn't apply to all Italian Americans. I think Scorsese actually made that comment prior to the airing though Scorsese himself is Italian.
I think censoring the word from Seinfeld is a mistake.
First, I don't think Peterman is a great characterization. He doesn't come close to Archie Bunker is terms of realism or nuance is character.
I think there is a time and place for different sort of words. Just like in the workplace, I don't bring up politics or tasteless jokes, tv especially has a duty to try to keep things clean. I don't know but somehow tv has been lenient I suppose in reaction to cable's lax censorship policies. I don't think it's a simplistic issue since stereotypes and media images do affect how people perceive things around them. After all, that's why we have propagandists. We ought to learn from Stalin's Cult of Personality (Mao included) and Nazi Germany's efforts in propaganda. The US government included (eg World War 2 propaganda).
I'm not an ideologue where freedom of speech has no limitations. I haven't seen the episode in question but to me if Peterman's character warrants it then perhaps we should be allowed to say it. However, if he doesn't mock jews, slavs, italians, irish, and blacks, with equivalent slurs for the various ethnic groups then it's only fair the writers don't pick on asian americans.
That may indeed say alot about the totem pole of whom you can mock in the media. Not surprisingly, asian americans relatively smal numbers give them less leverage unlike blacks and now latinos. After all, Puerto Ricans got very irate at the Seinfeld episode with the flag burning. If Puerto Ricans demanded boycotts etc over this act while asian americans didn't go ballistic over the chinese slur then I think asian americans have been either ignorant of the episode, didn't care, or more contrained in their response. I don't know.
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Dave wrote in article :
Well, my Merriam Webster is from 1973; ISTM that's a little early for "ultrasensitives' having much influence (just as it is for hyperinsensitives). How about 1955: Kenkyusha's English-Japanese Dictionary lists it as contemptuous, scornful, disdaining. I suppose we might say it was known to be pejorative at least that early, and not only in the US.
Sort of like those little disclaimers about Jap, Kike, Greaser, Nigger? Do you really want to go there?
i just noticed that MANAA has a home page now. (some basic info only)
http://janet.org/~manaa
-------------------------------------------------------------------- the latest MANAA newsletter (Sept 1998) tells me that MANAA finally got the racist TV show "Seinfeld" to edit out the racial slur "Chinaman".
an NBC executive promised to edit out the racial slur from all the future rebroadcasts and syndications.
see also: Seinfeld burning the flag of Puerto Rico. (many www pages on this topic.) i think NBC apologized for this one.
(i try to idiot-proof my posts, but it's hard.)
an NBC executive promised to edit out the racial slur from all the future rebroadcasts. --- including future syndications.
But NBC no longer owns Seinfeld. Jerry and co-creator Larry David just sold the show for $1.7 billion. NBC execs can promise whatever they want, they no longer have any say in the matter.
It's been my experience that executives often make promises to placate
pinheads, not because they earnestly wish to affect any change. Surely
you can recognize when you're being jerked around.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
[email] replace EYE with I
(Hammer nail here--> <-- for a new monitor.)
Seinfeld FAQ http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/7217/faq.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------I know when cettain posters are jerking people around.
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote in article :
TT had written:
Considering who's writing them, . . . . :-)
Does NBC have a say in future syndications? I thought that was between the producers/owners of a program and the purchasing syndicate.
Don Kirkman wrote:
As far as I know, they have no financial interest in it at all anymore, so no.
What producers are u speaking of. NBC has "producers";all they do is eat lunch and watch the rehersals...
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Takeuchi, Kaz & Diep wrote in article :
Have you read the papers lately? Do you know who wrote, produced, and owns Seinfeld? Do you know who's receiving millions of dollars for the syndication rights? Are you aware that most TV programs are produced by companies not owned and operated by the networks?
The only time I remeber the show using the word "Chinaman" was when Morty Seinfeld was working for the Peterman Catalogue and the joke was that he was so out of touch with the modern fashion world that he got fired within a couple of days. He says (among other silly things) that he "knows a few Chinamen" who can get them a better deal on fabric. Elaine (who got him hired) is really humiliated and whispers to him that he should use the term "Asian American." He stares at her balnkly and says "huh"? The joke is not on Chinese people, it is on him for being so old school and out of touch with the modern way of doing business. If the show had used the term "Chinaman" in a way that made it seem like a hip viable term for the '90s I would be among the first to protest, but this is obviously not the case.
i think that the part they are reffering to is when peterman describes heroine as "the chinaman's (something-i think "cup")".
wait a minute...wait a freaking minute...someone is using sense on the Internet!?! will this signal the end of time?
well done eshaas...
cheers, wt
In article ,
It also happened in "The Bookstore", where Peterman referred to heroin as "Chinaman's nightcap". I took that as just another example of Peterman's bombastic rhetoric.
[email] wrote:
I see nothing wrong with referring to opium products and China in the same sentence. Seinfeld did not attempt to rewrite history here.
But I think the Indignants are referring to "The Cigar Store Indian", where Jerry asks the Postman if he knows where a Chinese restaurant is, and the Postman turns out to be Chinese and he rails against Jerry for stereotyping him. In fact, when I think of Tanaka, I picture the Chinese Mailman from "The Cigar Store Indian". They have very similar attitudes.
Anyway, the whole episode dealt with how often innocent comments are misconstrued by the easily offended folks. The fact that real people have gotten offended by it is absolutely hysterical! How sublime is it that the Seinfeld writers were SO 'tapped in' to the way these people think, that they wrote an episode making fun of how outraged they get, AND THEY GET OUTRAGED OVER THAT VERY EPISODE!!
Voluntarily angry people = puppets on a string.
Ratboy
":Anyway, the whole episode dealt with how often innocent comments are misconstrued by the easily offended folks. The fact that real people have gotten offended by it is absolutely hysterical! How sublime is it that the Seinfeld writers were SO 'tapped in' to the way these people think, that they wrote an episode making fun of how outraged they get, AND THEY GET OUTRAGED OVER THAT VERY EPISODE!! Voluntarily angry people = puppets on a string. Boing, boing, boing!"
YES! this is the only thing that's keeping me sane as I see the same thing cropping up again and again. How many people just didnt get the show. And how their reaction is an extension of the humor. I'd rather laugh at this than tear my hair out. What is really scary is that they have so much power they can get episodes pulled. What hope is there for those of us who dont have the show video taped except some copies and have to hope we eventually can tape episodes. There'll be nothing left at this rate.
What is racially"slurry" about the C- word? Will it be politically incorrect to call us Americans one day? alt showbiz gossip
That's a slur? George
I believe after last evening, NBC is out of the Jerry business.
"Takeuchi, Kaz & Diep" writes:
The "hypersensitive twits" reference has nothing to do with the color of one's skin, it has to do with the content of their idiotic thought regarding the PRDay episode. Many non-PRs fall into the hypersensitive twit category and many PRs have content not embracing idiotic thought regarding the PRDay episode.