Costanza is Italian

You saw it tonight. George is Italian, not Jewish. Larry David and Jerry must be lurking on the group.

ummm...isn't one a nationality, and the other a religion? You can't be Jewish *and* Italian? Maybe that's how the revisionist Germans are getting away with attempting to change their history books: "Those people at Auschwitz weren't Jewish, they were Poles."

Doug

Plus, I believe he said "My name's Costanza. That's Italian." My last name's Italian, too, but that doesn't mean I am. Hell, my aunt's last name is Jewish (she married & converted) but her maiden name is Italian. For that matter, her husband could have taken her Italian name and been Jewish with an Italian name. The possibilities are endless. Oy.

Hey you're right. COme to think of it, George could also be an Aborigine with a skin condition. Or even a Leprechaun on growth hormone.

z

Of course you can, but I don't think I've ever seen an Italian that wasn't Catholic. No offense meant to anyone.

z

I had a very close friend when I was growing up who was Jewish and Italian. Hitler and Musselini (sp?) extinguished almost all the italian jews that's why there are so few in the world. Andrea

Doug- Why don't you ask any Jewish person? He will tell you that Judaism is more than a faith- it is an ethnicity. They have culture, speak the same language, etc. They are a "people" (i.e. God's chosen) who have certain ethnic traits, etc.

Last time I checked, most Italians are Catholic. Find me an Italian Jew- it would be interesting.

[email] (Mish Dilip, PhD.) wrote:

Oh, absolutely. I would agree that of all the "Western" religions, Judaism has the strongest arguments for being classed as an ethnicity, but they're still a subset of "Middle Eastern" for the most part. Most share the same ethnic traits with the Middle Eastern Islamics, who certainly (*emphatically*) are not Jews. I don't mean to demean the faith when I say this or with my previous post, but it's ridiculous in this day and age, especially in the American melting pot society, to try and *prove* that someone is (or isn't) Jewish merely on the basis of the ethnic background of their name. How about Blacks? If your background is African, you're definitely not Jewish? I can think of several examples that would refute that. Saying that someone is *not* Jewish simply because they're Italian is exactly as ridiculous as saying someone *must* be Catholic for the same reason.

Doug

The majority of Italians probably are Catholic, but I have a friend who is both Jewish and Itialian - it IS possible! If there is a LOOK to `races`, he looks more Itialian than Jewish.

If you want to find an Italian Jew, go to Italy, go to Rome, or any other big city, such as Naples, Venice, Florence, etc.. and go to the synagogue there, and you will find an Italian Jew.

First of all, to be Jewish is a part of a nationality and a religion, but not to be part of a "race"; there are many "sub-ethnicities" amongst Jews depending on country of origin ( e.g., Poland,Hungary,Yemen,ITALY, Moroocco, etc.) Jews ave lived in Italy for over 2000 years and the Italian Jews speak Italian, have Italian surnames, etc.In fact there was a specific Judaeo-Italian dialect spoken up to the end of the last century. Italy has had two Jewish prime ministers, Luigi Luzzati and Giussepe Ottolenghi in this century. However, most Italian Jews began to assimilate rapidly during the past 100 years, and many perished during WW2. Those that survived in the Holocaust, either 1. continued to live in Italy and remained Jewish,2. intermarried with their non-Jewish Italian neighbours.3. moved to Israel or other countries, or 4. remained in Italy, remained Jewish, but intermarried with "new Italian Jews( e.g., many members of Italy's present Jewish community are relatively recent immigrants from Libya, Egypt, Russia, etc.. and do not trace their family histories in Italy back sevearl centuries , as opposed to the "real" Italian Jews)

None of this is meant to suggest that the character of George Costanza is meant to be portrayed as a descendant of these Italian Jews, he is merely a New Yorker.Jason Alexander, however, as well Jerry Stiller, are both unquestionably New York area Jews, and that is why their portrayal sugeests that the character's are Jewish! 'Nuff said!

Italian jews? Sure there are! Jews have been in Italy for a long, long, long time, and have made an important contribution to its culture. BTW, the Italian writer Primo Levi, for example, was Jewish.

Regards,

Jordi Sod.

So what's Elaine? Elaine Bennis or some such name. She is Jewish as well n'est ce pas? Or is she supposed to be Catholic?

In article , Jordi Sod wrote:

In [email] (Daria

well

long,

BTW,

On that horrible anti-semitic Seinfeld episode, when they made the Rabbi who lives in Elaine's building look like a doddering gossipy idiot, Elaine said to him, "I am not of your faith." I was quite shocked. (The Rabbi then offered to fix her up with his nephew, and I was even more shocked.)

Beth.

[email] (Beth) wrote:

I hope you're joking.

Monty

In [email] (Monty D.

I

'Doc' Pfefferle, PhD.

Joking about what? I'm recalling the episode with all seriousness, and I'm relating my emotional reactions with all seriousness. The former (Elaine not being Jewish) surprised me; the fact that the show portrayed a Rabbi in such a negative light appalled me.

Beth.

In article , [email](Richard A. Ifft ) writes:

As a Jew, I can understand the sensitivity of many people towards this episode, yet, it was funny and ironic. I think you, Beth, as Jew, if you are, ought to realize that Seinfeld is predominantly a Jewish show and it is ok to tell Jewish jokes or exagerrate a bit. I doubt this episode meant any harm upon our culture.

Mel Brooks has done the same thing in many of his movies....

Dan

What about the portrayal of the moyle in "The Bris"? It is easy to see that the portrayal is unrealisitic if not completely ridiculous. Accepting that one can see the hunor in it (c'mon that moyle was pretty FUNNY)

[email] wrote:

Dear Dan,

I am happy to see that you acknowledge that "Seinfeld is predominantly a Jewish show". I tried to argue that point once before in this group, but as I am a Gentile, I received a lot of harsh criticism and/or flames for daring to suggest that the characters and their idiosyncracies were flavored by the Jewish culture. For some reason, it's not PC for a non-Jew to point that out. I find the Jewish culture fascinating, and I think that I learn more about it when I watch Seinfeld, especially the scenes between Jerry and his parents....

Also, since the character of George is based on Larry David and his neuroses and phobias and frailties, I have argued that George is at least part Jewish. Many people feel that he is Italian (Costanza). An astute poster pointed out that Jewish and Italian are not mutually exclusive. Thus, George's behavior and character can be reflective of both the Jewish and Italian cultures. Maybe he'll end up as a millionaire with a great sex life!

David

[email](Richard A. Ifft ) wrote:

As an ex-entertainment exec (agent, then network VP) my sense is that the Seinfeld creators -- Jerry himself and his Jewish partner, whose name escapes my at the moment, but who the character "George" is based upon, and whose name you can see at the beginning of every show -- developed the show with a heimische and gem�tliche feeling, but thought (probably with the encouragement of the programming department) that an exclusively Jewish cast of characters would alienate a good part of the viewing public. Nevertheless, you have the great actor Jason Alexander (who's quite active in Jewish activities) playing George with a real Jewish sensibilit7y -- even though he and his family are supposed to be Italian-Amereicns with roots in Tuscany. Jerry Stiller -- the actor playing George's dad -- was asked: How do you play Frank Costanza? to which he answered: "Like an old Jew!"

Up until recently, the ethnic identities of Elaine and Kramer were rather amorphous, but the Kramer character transcends ethnicity anyway. As far as people "types" are concerned, he's like a chameleon who can fit in with anyone (the actor, Michael Richards, is a Catholic). I always viewed Elaine as a non-Jew, but one who by virtue of living in NYC and by dating Jewish guys is very comfortable with the "tribe."

In any case, it's a winning combination. Americans like Jewish comedy, dating back to the Three Stooges and the Marx Brothers, Al Jolson, Jack Benny, Eddie Cantor, Milton Berle, Phil Silvers, Sid Caesar, Henny Youngman, Alan King, etc. etc. etc. But in a sitcom, you have to make the audience feel as if their part of the group they're watching. Seinfeld has successfully done so.

Friends, too, has succeeded, and has the David Schwimmer character and his sister. The Nanny is one of the top rated shows on CBS (although it sort of makes me sick) -- and it's interesting how the developers of the show thought things through. They decided to make the family for which the Nanny (Fran Drescher) works British, so that American viewers would identify with working-class Jewish Fran the Nanny. Apparently, this strategy has worked, too. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find almost any program without an identifiably Jewish character.

It's a long way from the days when, even though the producers were Jewish, the notion was "Sha! Sha!." We don't want to draw attention to ourselves. Well, there's a taboo that's been nicely broken.

Whoever thought a show called "Seinfeld" could be a hit?

Gregg Snerson

The character Elaine might not be Jewish, but the actress, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, certainly is!

In article , la gringa bonita wrote:

Remember we go by matralineal descent. Jewish names mean nothing. (Spelled something like that?)

It's "matrilineal." Maybe she's not a practicing Jew, but to me, she seems way Jewish. Call me crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've never met anyone named Dreyfus that was NOT Jewish. It's like meeting a woman named Debra Horowitz in your Baptist congregation...it just doesn't happen!!!!!!!!!

Stacey

Gregg S. ([email]) wrote:

I know that the actor is Jewish, but are the characters supposed to be Jewish? How can you tell? A couple of weeks ago, they showed the Christmas episode here. I didn't notice any of the characters not observing the holiday.

-----
Richard Schultz                              [email]
Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"To be, or not to be, I there's the point,
To Die, to sleepe, is that all?  I all;
No, to sleepe, to dreame, I mary there it goes. . ."

Elaine could not be Jewish, she did'nt know what a moile was....(A person who circumsizes babies in the Jewish faith)..

Michelle S

Elaine is not Jewish. In one of the episodes she tells a Rabbi that she is not of his faith.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 16 May 1996, Michelle Shabazz wrote:

Michelle, Perhaps: Merely because Elaine was unfamiliar with the Moile, it does not necessarily follow that she is not Jewish. What possible need for services would she have for a Moile anyway--assuming she is a female.

I'm not Jewish but I know what the Moile is. I also know who "blow the chaffir" The Rabbi's wife :)

Sorry for the corny humor, but I just couldn't resist!

Jude

Michelle Shabazz wrote:

It supposed to be spelled mohel, BTW, which comes from the jewish "mila" which means circumsize. Those bloody mohels, they cut you little John Thomas when you are too small to resist. Isn't that sick?

My little thingy will never be the same.

You lucky, lucky cristians (sp?)

Shalom Alikhem

BIG MAX

"All too easy" - Darth Vader

"Just squeeze your rage into a bitter little ball and release it at the appropriate time" - Homer Simpson

"No he didn't" - John Cleese, Monty Python

In article ,

Well, I'm sure if Usenet supported the Hebrew aleph-bet, she would have spelled it perfectly. Subject to the limitations of the roman alphabet, I've seen it spelled "moyle," "mohel," "moile," and maybe a couple of other variations that I don't remember. Each one of them gets the sound across, which is the main purpose, anyway. Don't pick spelling nits on Usenet -- consult Emily Postnews for this and other tips on Usenet Ettiquite.

Well, that is, after all, the point of the whole procedure.

And you're picking spelling nits? My word.

-Mike Pelletier.

If she ain't jewish, she wouldn't be on the show, and complain about sex constantly.

When Elaine went to talk with her Rabbi neighbor, she opened with the sentance: "Although I am not one of your faith..." So Jewish she ain't.

what's this got to do with soc.culture.italian, and for my money, with soc.culture.jewish?

please avoid unnecessary crosspostings.

francesco

On Thu, 23 May 1996 13:39:18 GMT, [email] (BIG MAX) wrote:

Exactly how much of the "John Thomas" is cut off, as you say? I'm pretty ignorant of Jewish cutoms, though I have a general idea of what a cirumscision is. I've never actually asked or heard the gruesome details. :)

In soc.culture.jewish on Fri, 24 May 1996 08:47:55 GMT [email] (Brandon Stockton) posted:

Elaine is from Towson MD which is another way of saying she is not Jewish, but Wasp.. Costanza is Italian. I don't know about Kramer or Goodman , I guess Goodman is Jewish. I assume that Julian Louis-Dreyfus is Jewish but I am not sure. Seinfeld himself, although he rags on lots of things, I still believe is screwed up when it comes to his Jewishness. I assume he has script approval. Some time I will check the credits. I don't recommend the show anymore. A couple years ago he had Elaine make a 'joke' which compared Napolion to Mengele. There is no similarity and he doesn't seem to know what is not funny. And Julia is dumb or weak enough that said the lines to be shown on TV. I wrote them both but received no answer. (In that letter I assumed she was Jewish)

Topic 2. I know that gruesome details is a cliche. Circumcisions are no gruesome of course. Actually Brandon, you are in a better position than I am to know what was cut off, at least after this description.

I toiok gym in public shcools for 3 or 4 years, JHS, HS, and college, and I believe I have only seen one uncircumcised boy. Didn't want to starte, you know. Anyhow, I believe if you go back about an inch from the end, that is where the foreskin is attached. Normally it goes forward to cover that first inch, but with an erection, oops, now I am confused. It has to go somewhere then but I can't figure out where. The foreskin is the smooth part that is a second layer above the skin covered first inch.

Although Abraham Avinu circumcised himself when he was over 90 years
old, and that must have been difficult, and his son by Hagar, whose
name escapes me, who was 13 years old at the same time (That is the
reason Arabs circumcise their sons now also at the age of 13, is that
right)    Subsequent circum. are much easier.    At 8 days (the same
day of the week as the birth) or older if the babies medical condition
in any way warrants a delay, is the Bris Milah , covenant of
circumcision.   Shields, often  silver, protect everything one would
like to protect.  One is like a thimble that cover that first inch,
while the foreskin remains on top, sand the other is like a collar or
wide cigar band that covers the inch or so behind the foreskin. A very
sharp knife or scalpel is brought once around, and held sideways,
parallel to the pupik (penis in this context, also belly button, and
chicken craw) so that it is parallel to the shields and can't cut
anything it shouldn't.   The shields are placed and positioned in
advance and don't move around at all, so really not much can go wrong.
I am told that I bled longer than usual, but the boy is given
afterward a cloth with a few drops of wine to suck on (not enough for
intoxication, wine is often used for holy occasoins) and
usuallydoesn't cry for more than 5 or 10 seconds.  I can't imagine
that if it were that painful, he wouldn't cry longer.  It doesn't take
much to make a baby cry in general.

A mohel (pronounced in Yiddish 'moyl', and I guess in Ladino or Hebrew, as written, is much better at these things than a doctor, who only does a few and has had much less instruction. A mohel might take ten seconds to do it, Doctors can take up to 15 minutes. Furthermore, it is the duty of the father, which he can delegate to another Jew, and which must be done with the proper blessing (and intent, perhaps)

In Baltimore/ Washington in the last few years more than 1000 Jews from the FSU, former Soviet Union, tfrom the age of 3 to 55 I think it was have gotten themselves circumcised. For them anesthesia is necessary , and for the children, I think it was general anesthesia. No one in the article I read complained much about pain, and I know of a gentile boy who had himself done when he was about 15. It hurt and he went to bed in the afternoon, but I suppose it's a lot like a long paper cut, the pains stings but it does stop.

Anyhow, gentiles have a decision to make I guess. They might want to consider statistics that show that Jews almost never get cancer of the penis, and that their wives have a lower rate of cancer of the cervix, I think. This is relevant for them.

But like so many laws, this is just incidental to Jews. Although a Jew without circ is still a Jew, for parents there is no choice unless they want to raise a Jewish freak, who will assuredly notice the difference between himslef and other boys in gym class and maybe even the boy's restroom..

May every reader have at least one son and one daughter, B"H Shavua Tov

Shalom

[email] also not a posek

"Purify our hearts to serve You in truth. Taher libanu l'ovdecho b'emes. "

I miss many posts so please e-mail comments also if you want to be sure that I see it.

Goodman ????? Do  you  mean  Newman ???????????

Hmmmm, I'm a cristian (sic) and you are a Ju. I had the procedure done too. You thought that you were the only one because you are a Ju?

:

:

:

yeah, i reckon that if my parents circumsized me i'd sue em.

(for the point of the sp? after it: christians)

I know plenty of people that are Jewish that "celebrate" Christmas. Christmas has gotten so materialistic and secular that the fact that someone who is Jewish "celebrates" Christmas doesn't mean much in that instance. Janine

[email] wrote:

+In article , [email]
+I know plenty of people that are Jewish that "celebrate" Christmas.
+Christmas has gotten so materialistic and secular that the fact that
+someone who is Jewish "celebrates" Christmas doesn't mean much in
that
+instance.
+			Janine
+
Sorry, but Jews DO NOT celebrate Xmas.  No matter what the opinion of
it being materialistic or such, Jews celebrate the miracle that is
Hanukah and leave the other holiday to others.
     _           _         ___       _    _
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 _  | |/ _` | | | | \ /\ / /| | '_ \| |/ / |/ _ \ '__|

 \___/ \__,_|\__, | \_/\_/  |_|_| |_|_|\_\_|\___|_|
             |___/

***********************Buy Canadian for Quality, Value and JOBS***********

Right at the start, when the others are busy talking about decorating the xmas tree, you can see Ross digging the old wax out of a menorah with a screwdriver - a very sharply observed little bit of jewish humour I thought. (I can't believe I've now posted this observation twice in less than a month - I need a life!)

I guess this dude knows exactly what he's saying...He's right.

why is thread still on soc.culture.italian? please avoid this cross-posting frenzy.

francesco

You know, Elaine very well could be ethnically Jewish, just not of the Jewish "faith". There are a large number of people who are of Jewish decent and hold Christian or other faiths.

Thanks for taking the time to make this comment (more below)!

(snip)

One of the few avenues where Jews did not encounter discrimination and could make BIG money was in the entertainment business. Also, the "Tummler" is well established in Jewish folklore. Besides, in my humble opinion Jews are funny (or at least they were -- the adversity and oppression of European ghetto life rendered humor one of the few outlets for Jewish "retribution" against their enemies, and also gave them (-- us -- ) an ironic and cynical outlook which, when employed by a sharp mind, could be very funny (and that's sort of stating the obvious). So, yes, coupled with the fact that Jews naturally gravitated to show business as agents, producers, writers and directors, a disproportionate number of Jews were comic stars. Also, you gotta remember that there was a large audience for their humor. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that there was any other ethnic enclave comparable to the Catskills of old, where Jewish comedians could let loose and try out cutting-edge material at home with their own people.

And I guess I've given you my opinion on your first question as well -- I don't think that non-Jews liked Jewish comedy because the comics were Jews cum Jews, but I DO think that audiences sensed this cynicism and irony in Jewish performances that were lacking in the performances of other, non-Jewish comics. And, they liked it!

(snip)

Absolutely. Cosby has always been one of the most least ethnic of Black comedians. Almost every middle class family in the country could identify with his wife, kids and situations. But you're forgetting certain other comics who have done extremely well -- specifically, Flip Wilson and Tim Moore ("Kingfish" on Amos 'n Andy). (I want to keep the list short).

Flip Wilson was an incredibly big star in the 70's and his show was top-rated. He used to guest-host the "Tonight" show and, in fact, was the first person to put B.B. King on national T.V. (I know because I worked at NBC at the time). Yet Flip Wilson was essentially an ethnic comic. Almost all of his characters and routines were derived from traditional Black humor, dating back to the minstrel shows of the last century. He refined them a bit, updated them where necessary, and was a smash with white audiences. The key, I think, is (1) he WAS funny and talented, but more important (2) he was non-threatening. Ther current crop of TV shows with Black casts (with the exception of "Fresh Prince," maybe) are aimed specifically at Black audiences (particularly the ones on the new networks Fox, WB and UPN, who are trying to build core viewership). Their sensibility is "street" and aggressive, and white viewers feel threatened rather than a part of what's going on.

I have to disagree on "Seinfeld." About every fifth show Jerry makes some reference or other to being Jewish. For example (and these are from memory, so I'm sure I'm getting them partially wrong and leaving out many others) Jerry tells Elaine on one show "I want to tell you about my people," and then goes on to explain why Jews behave a certain way. He has referred to his Bar-Mitzvah many times. On another show about the sensitivity of people of various ethnic groups, Jerry says "I don't get upset when people ask me which way to Israel!" On the show about putting a secret in the "vault," George tells the secret to someone anyway, and Jerry says "Oy, Ge-vault!" There are lots more.

But you're right -- other than the old show "The Goldbergs" (which was, to a certain extent, based on negative stereotypes), and "You Bet Your Life" with Groucho Marx (who used to trabslate some of the thngs his guests said into Yiddish), I can't think of any shows where the lead character is identifiably Jewish. NBUT -- I can think of lots of shows where the lead character was supposed to be Jewish but didn't allude to it often if ever -- Barney Miller (he once told "Fish" - played by Abe Vigoda, who was worrying about something, "don't worry so much - it's just part of our Jewish heritage"), "Fish" (with the above-same Abe Vigoda), Jack Benny, "Brooklyn Bridge," Milton Berle, Sid Caeser, Ed Wynn, the Don Rickles Show (short-lived on ABC), "Mad ABout You" (Paul Reiser's character), The Odd Couple (both Felix and Oscar), "Rhoda," "Northern Exposure" (the Rob Murrow "Dr. Fleischman" character), and Howard Stern (on the E! network) to name a few.

No, but it would be forced. I don't think that the producers specifically avoided casting a Black character, but I don't think that they were looking to be politically correct, either. Besides, in New York, in a relatively nice, intellectual group like that on "Friends," you'd have more than one Jewish character.

And his name was Warren Littlefield, n� Kleinfeld before the family changed it.

[email](Richard A. Ifft ) wrote:

Exactement!!

Yes, I imagine that's true, so they decided to straddle the fence. A friend and I who often play, "Jew/Not a Jew" have been trying to figure out for years who's Jewish on that show and who isn't. I imagine a great deal of effort must have gone into writing the show in which Jerry and George get into a limo with a Nazi or two and NOT clarifying Jerry or George's religion. I don't think Jerry "admitted" he was Jewish until that very show I was talking about, the one where Elaine told the Rabbi that she was not Jewish.

The same thing happened at that family dinner where Jerry insulted an old aunt, something about people having ponies in Poland. I couldn't see a Menorah or anything anywhere; and my assumption is that Jews didn't have ponies in Poland but surely other Poles did, and that would have been an appropriate episode for the family's religion to be cleared up, and it was strenuously avoided.

Nevertheless, you have

That's probably how Jerry Stiller plays every role. :-)

As I implied, I had simply assumed she was Jewish. If asked, I'm not sure I could explain why. Why did you view her as a non-Jew?

There are of course various sociological reasons why some of these men are exemplars of "Jewish Comedy," besides the fact that they are Jewish. I mean, if you define "Jewish Comedy," most of them would fit in despite their circumcision status. But surely not all of them. The Three Stooges? That kind of non-verbal and quasi-violent slapstick isn't Jewish comedy as I define it. (You left out Mel Brooks; now that's Jewish comedy.)

But in a sitcom,

Is this the same audience that watched and listened as a Rabbi was made into a fool, and an unwittingly cruel fool at that. Jerry's little explique at the end that Rabbi's aren't supposed to be like that didn't undo the damage. Andi it's worse because it's supposed to be written by Jews; if there's nothing wrong with us "hating" our own Rabbi's, why shouldn't everyone else?

I used to watch Woody Allen movies in Toledo and Texas; noone else ever laughed at the jokes....

But they are even less "Jewish" to the average viewer than Seinfeld is. They celebrate Christmas; he was married to the quintessential blond gentile. I don't recall seeing any Jewish artifacts in his parents' home either. What is Jewish about them? People have told me they think Rachel is Jewish. Why? Because she comes from money and shops at Bloomingdale's and nearly married a dentist. Thank G-d I have put out of my mind which acquaintance has made those factors a definition of Judaism.

The Nanny is one of the top rated shows on CBS (although

Yes, the strategy of making the Nanny "Us" and the classy guy "Other" was brilliant. And I do so love wearing red when everyone else in Washington D.C. is wearing tan. But that most recent episode of hers, where her mother is eating ham and bacon in a synagogue was not one I was comfortable with either.

In fact, you'd be hard

Do you know, I don't recall a Jew on Murder she Wrote in 10 years, but I might have missed a couple...

Yes, that's true. There was Molly Goldberg. Then there was Rhoda. And then we were invisible. And that's one reason my nine-year old daughter and I will watch Fran every week, even if sometimes I'm offended. I really really miss Brooklyn Bridge.

We don't want to draw attention

And with that, unfortunately, is the taboo against demonizing us and reinforcing stereotypes. Did you see the Rosanne episode where she and Dan crash a bar-mitzvah? I ran out of fingers and toes counting up the stereotypes on that one. Did you see the Picket Fences episode where Wambaugh cross-examined the Pope and, though he was doing his job as a defense attorney, just about every Christian in town slammed the door in his face.

If I were king of network tv and were offered two choices:

a. No Jews in mainstream America or b. Visible, and sometimes clearly identifiable, Jews, but every so often you have to really make fun of them or reinforce a stereotype that has proved damaging in the past or have them alienate their entire Christian community.....

I guess I would choose b; it's not optimal but it's clearly preferable to a.

Beth.

P.S.I've only been reading the Seinfeld Newsgroup for a few days and am not sure what the parameters of that group are. But the anti-semites seem to be crawling out of the woodwork. Anyway, if you want to quote any of this there or SCJ, you have my permission.

Gregg S. ([email]) wrote:

I saw the movie "Top Secret" in suburban Pittsburgh. Not only did no one besides me and my parents get the joke about "September 30th? But that's Simchas Torah," but the only really hilarious scene in that movie is in Yiddish, so you can guess how many people in the theater were laughing at that one.

Actually, there was a period in the 1950's and early 1960's when there was a fairly significant Jewish presence on TV. For example, Morey Amsterdam's character on "The Dick van Dyke Show" was openly Jewish. In fact, there was an episode where he's sneaking around and everyone thinks he's cheating on his wife. Then they discovered that he had never had a bar mitzvah ceremony and had been sneaking out for lessons. As I recall, that episode was done very sympathetically. And prior to that, there were characters such as Sgt. Bilko (Phil Silvers) who were pretty obviously Jewish. In fact, it has been pointed out that the humor of Sgt. Bilko is that his entire crew is made up of "ethnic" characters who make life miserable for the very WASPy officers nominally in charge.

What I would like to see is an observant Jewish character who just happens to be Jewish, not as a symbol (e.g. Holocaust survivor) or butt of jokes. The only one I can think of offhand is the one character on the show "The Trials of Rosie O'Neill." I only saw one episode of the show, but it seemed to me that he was somebody who just happened to be Jewish, and his character was more significant to the show than being the token Jew.

Italian Jews:

Solomon de Ibreo (Solomon Rossi)
The Luzatto family of religious scholars
General Pugliesi of WWI fame
Modigliani (yes the artist)
Castelnuovo-Tedescho (the guitar composer)
Montefiore
Other Italian names borne by Jews (not all bearers are Jews) :
	Marciano
	Candiotti
	Politi
	Santagada
	Cassuto/Casadeo
	Finzi

Seth Rosenthal

"George" is more of a Greek name than Italian. Costanza is an Italian name. Frank and Estelle are definitely New York Jewish stereotypes. This thread will never end!

Kerro.

language,

What language would that be? Hebrew? Yiddish? No, sorry--Jews typically speak the language of the land they are living in. In America it's English, in France, it's French, etc. Although since 1948 we have been able to call Israel our homeland, far from all Jews live there.

traits,

it

I know an American convert who is Italian. His name is Marionelli, as is his wife's and children's. By name alone they would certainly be taken for Italian, so by your assumption, Catholic, yet they are Orthodox Jews. As I posted separately:

George said to the guy making the calzones that his "*name* is Italian," and not that *HE* is. One other thing is that since in Judaism the child's religion is held to follow the religion of the mother, and the name generally taken from the father, the child of an intermarriage could easily have a name which doesn't sound Jewish, and yet still be Jewish. George's father, therefore,

could either be the product of an intermarriage, or else a non-Jew himself.

I also know a Jewish woman who was raised in Italy, though she's been in American since the war (WWII). As a child growing up there, she spoke Italian, etc., but later married a man with a very typical Jewish name (Goldstein), so we see sometimes names tell you very little about a person's ethnicity. --ljw

In [email] writes:

more than a faith- it is an ethnicity. They have culture, speak the same language,

typically

been

In my father's family there was lots of Yiddish spoken. I think this may be representational of many other Jewish families...it clearly sets Jews apart from their "countrymen," and for a variety of reasons, setting themselves apart was important. It is a common language among Jews throughout the world. I don't mean they all speak it fluently, but many probably do. --Susan

In article , Susan H. Golden writes:

Did they *solely* speak Yiddish, or only as an adjunct to the language of the land they lived in? Typically, except for certain Chassidic groups (who only speak Yiddish, to this day), Jews speak the language of the land and possibly Yiddish (or Hebrew) as an addition. And in this day and age, Yiddish as a cultural language is almost dead, certainly among Jews younger than 50-years-old or so.

Do you, for example, speak it? And by the way, as I'm sure you know, but others might not, that Yiddish is generally connected to Ashkenazic Jewry, while other languages (Ladino is the most well known example) are spoken by Sephardic Jews.

--LJW

Couldn't he be Jewish and Italian at the same time?