Jan 16, 1996·26 posts by 14 posters·alt.tv.seinfeld
😡 Hated it🔥 Controversial
Fans debate whether Susan was in a lesbian relationship, with most agreeing the show made it obvious despite lack of explicit confirmation, while others defend Susan's character against criticism.
Whether or not she was in bed in pajamas with another woman is (IMHO) irrelevant. It was OBVIOUS that the two were in a lesbian relationship. Deny if you wish, but noone (except maybe you) who would think otherwise.
So, what the hell is your point? You made a deal out of it, then asked for evidence to prove their point, but then you whimp out. I think you know you're wrong, but instead of admitting it outright, you are going to stipulate and gaff it off as "pointless". What is pointless is all this bandwidth going to waste about a character so pointless...
Are your goo-goo eyes so clouded that you don't know what you've seen?
I've been coming to this conclusion too. It's hard to be a hundred percent sure about this kind of thing, but I can't think of any other explanation that fits. We are suckers.
<I've been coming to this conclusion too. It's hard to be a hundred percent sure about this kind of thing, but I can't think of any other explanation that fits. We are suckers.>
Let me give you an explanation that fits: 1. I like Susan the best of all the characters on Seinfeld and do not like to see her defamed as you have done. 2. I think that Elaine is a cruel, mean person and I think it is unrealistic that the other three characters continue to be her friend and continue to be in her company constantly. I am not what you have said and I certainly would waste my time debating something if I didn't believe. I would only say that by saying what you do about me, you are limiting yourself and your horizions (or displaying such limitations) and it is a poor tactic for discussion. I also don't really appreciate it.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
It is a little hard to understand how a character, in reality, a collection of lines, written on a piece of paper, the product of writer's imaginations(in Susan's case, an afterthought,except of course, for the TWO episodes in which she was a lesbian...the only time she had a personality trait of passing interest), can be defamed.
First of all, the character that is Elaine is not any of the things
you claim, but, we've had that argument many times before.The reason you
find it unrealistic for the others to be her friend is because you are
projecting yourself, your likes and dislikes, into the others.
While a show with characters that shared your particular
sensibilities might make for an interesting show, on an " X-Files" or
"Outer Limits" kind of level, it would certainly be no sitcom!
HF
"Just keep thinkin" Butch.That's what yer good at!" -Sundance Kid
<As to why some (including myself) thought you were trolling, it really has nothing to do with the fact that you like Susan and don't like Elaine. Few really care about that. >
This is the only part of your post that I will take issue with. If I had come and virulently sang the praises of Elaine, I don't think the accusation would be made. I don't attempt to be inciting toward moderates or indifferent persons, but I will concede openly that those partisans who stand on the opposite side as I , I may not be overly polite too. Your post is much more reasonsable than those that alleged the charge toward me and as I have said, most of it is true.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
Please don't confuse the character Susan with the actress Heidi. The sexuality of Susan I do not know. Heidi is hetero... and married to a terrific guy. Heidi is my sister. (And I'm very proud of her!)
<For the record, I would like to point out that in "The Smelly Car", in which Susan was discovered to be gay, by George, she told George that she had switched over just after they had broken up. Their most recent breakup at that point was in "The Pick", eight (8) episodes earlier. And she was still with Allison in "The Pilot" -- two (2) episodes after "The Smelly Car". Which makes her gay for at least ten (10) episodes. I'd say that qualifies her as "bi", at least.>
Your timeline is erroneous and Susan gives no specifics for how long she was misguided. Furthermore, Susan's sexuality is not confirmed in the Pilot, so once again I take issue to your facts. You can buy this baloney if you want, but it seems to me that it has no basis in reality. She was gay for one episode confirmed and in that episode seemed to be that way only because of George. Now and before she was not and I would tend to think that qualifies her as being normal (or whatever you use for non-gay). But I'm not going to debate this point any further as it is demeaning to my position.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
Here is my timeline again, with original broadcast dates added:
The Pick 12/16/92 (S & G break up; S becomes gay)
The Movie 1/06/93 (no mention of S at all)
The Visa 1/27/93 ( " )
The Shoes 2/04/93 ( " )
The Outing 2/11/93 ( " )
The Old Man 2/18/93 ( " )
The Implant 2/25/93 ( " )
The Junior Mint 3/18/93 ( " )
The Smelly Car 4/15/93 (G learns S is gay)
The Handicap Spot 5/13/93 (no mention of S)
The Pilot 5/30/93 (S is [probably] still gay)
I got these dates from the Seinfeld Episode List by Kevin Matzdorf and Andrew Bunch (Thanks, guys!), recently posted in this newsgroup. Please point out exactly where it is erroneous. I'm sure Kevin and Andrew would like to know.
You may certainly contest whether she is still gay in "The Pilot", since it isn't explicitly stated there as it is in "The Smelly Car". That still leaves a minimum of 8 episodes of Susan-gayness.
She does give specifics, exactly one time: In "The Smelly Car", she says "since just after you and I broke up."
"Misguided"? Oooh, you really ARE a Republican.
"Seemed to be that way only because of George?" Where did this come from? You're doing a revisionism thing on Susan's history so that you can still Like her. Obviously, as a Republican, you can't like her if she is or ever was "really" gay.
"Normal" -- a Republican word. The word I'd use is "heterosexual".
Yes, one's position does tend to get demeaned when one hasn't a leg to stand on.
<"Seemed to be that way only because of George?" Where did this come from? You're doing a revisionism thing on Susan's history so that you can still Like her. Obviously, as a Republican, you can't like her if she is or ever was "really" gay.
"Normal" -- a Republican word. The word I'd use is "heterosexual".
Yes, one's position does tend to get demeaned when one hasn't a leg to stand on.>
I will go back on my word here and reenter this pitiful excuse for a debate because you are misrepresenting my position. My position is really simple and it is that Susan was only gay for one episode because it is only specifically mentioned in one episode and even in that episode there is a scene where she seems almost ready to take George back (but in the interest of short term humor, rather than the longterm viability of the show, it didn't happen). That is my only contention. Maybe you have this excellent, near psychic gift where you can instantly tell orientation when it is not specifically mentioned to you, but I prefer to rely on facts rather than supposition. Incidentally, Republicans are not specifically opposed to the practices to which we are referring and in fact, there is a group of Republican gays that attempted to donate money to Bob Dole. The anti-gay position is more of a religious right issue, and since I support Forbes rather than Buchanan/Dole/Gramm, I would have thought it would have been obvious I am more a fiscal conservative than a social one. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-gay either, but in the words of Steve Forbes :' Live and let live.'
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
What! I am a Republican, and I do not have a problem with homosexuals. Given the fact that I am bisexual, it would be rather ridiculous for me to have such a problem. Don't blame the entire party for the dreaded religious right. Many Republicans, myself included, don't even like the religious right, we tolerate them because they bring in votes. I am a Republican because I want lower taxes, less government interference in our lives, a strong national defense, and crackdowns on crime. Anyway, off of politics, sorry to have injected them into a Seinfeld newsgroup, but you did bring it up. Anyway, my compliments to JCS. I don't really agree with you about Susan, I am rather indifferent about her, but the passion you've put into the battle has been really impressive. Keep fighting the good fight.
I also doubt Susan is still gay (but wouldn't it be funny if...). However, "for the record" you can't prove that Susan *didn't* have an affair with Allison. But judging from the two episodes in which we see the two together a reasonable person would draw the inference that they were indeed a couple for some time and it should be pretty clear that this is what the writer intended. But as Dave Sim said Alan Moore said, "All stories are true" so if you wish to believe Susan was gay for one episode, then for you she was and everyone else here is wasting their time trying to convince you otherwise. And with that, I will attempt to force myself to abandon this pointless and tired debate. Thank you and good night.
< Why? Do you know more about this person than the rest of us?You have stated before that you are not a relative, and have never met Ms. Swedberg. so, what information would you have to make a statement like that? Just wondering if there isn't more to this than you're admitting...?(It would explain a great deal)>
Let me honor our presidential candidates this year by emulating their practices and dodging this question with this: Don't you think that it is possible that I would know more about the actress that plays my favorite television character than a bunch of people that consider her a bit player? Use some common sense next time, please.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
Please forgive my blatant stupidity, but, those of us who weren't
gifted with your razor-sharp mind have to do the best we can, with what
we've got. We just keep trudging ahead in our own, oxen-like manner.
In keeping with that... I'd still like an answer to the original
question.Is there a Heidi Swedberg fan club? Did you find lots of
information about her in the fan mags? Does she have her own web page? Has
she been linked in the gossip columns with prominent men?...or do you have
some connection to this actress that the general public is not privy to?
You may continue to choose not to enlighten the rest of us as to the
source of your information, if that's what you wish, however, by taking
that course, you leave those of us lacking in common sense( which
certainly precludes us from using it next time) to speculate, freely, as
to either an unnatural obsession, a personal relationship, or (heaven
forbid!), you are making statements that have absolutely no basis in
fact...
Anxiously awaiting your reply,
HF
"Never ascribe to an opponent motives meaner than your own."
In article , [email] (JCS21212) writes: < Just wondering if there isn't more to this than you're <admitting...?(It would explain a great deal)
The "more" would be that you do in fact have some sort of personal,
or professional relationship, which would then "explain" why you have
chosen to go on a holy crusade to promote her , when she is, in fact,
merely a prop on a show about four other people.
Of course, I'm not really "expecting" a follow-up post where you
confess to all that you are in fact her
agent/boyfriend/brother/whatever...
When you make a statement that you are "99% sure" that Ms. Swedberg
is heterosexual it implies that you have some personal knowledge of her
sexual preferences.
Since you have stated, on numerous occasions, that you don't know her,
and that you are not related in any way, one must then wonder, on what
basis you could make such a claim.
HF "Never ascribe to an opponent motives meaner than your own."
<BTW, JCS, your idol was listed as a GUEST STAR last night - hardly the <center of the Seinfeld Universe, huh?
Let me first say that BTW is one of the worst abbreviations I have ever seen. By the way is a short concise phrase as it is and abbreviating it makes little if any sense. I had never caught it before and for some reason felt the need to point this out. On your actual point, Susan is ALWAYS listed as a guest star and thats simply the way it is. If she actually was a guest star, then she's going for some kind of record because she's quite a regular guest. Where Susan is listed in the cast does not effect her status as the center of the Seinfeld universe (and to me, she is).
"Since the beginning of time, mankind has yearned to destroy the sun and I'll do the next best thing: block it out."
I gotta agree with JCS on this one. I consider George's parents to be pretty important to the show as well (look how many shows they've got with them as part of the plot) and they are always listed as guest stars. (although I still don't agree she's the center of Seinfeld universe ;^) Also BTW is a common abbreviation on the internet, along with ROTFL, RTFM, FWIW, and IMHO. Much easier to type, and almost everyone knows what they mean.
<I gotta agree with JCS on this one. I consider George's parents to be pretty important to the show as well (look how many shows they've got with them as part of the plot) and they are always listed as guest stars. (although I still don't agree she's the center of Seinfeld universe ;^) Also BTW is a common abbreviation on the internet, along with ROTFL, RTFM, FWIW, and IMHO. Much easier to type, and almost everyone knows what they mean.
Fred>
All the other abbreviations you mention are for long or elaborate phrases. BTW abbreviate by the way, which is 8 letters long. It takes about effort to type BTW as it does by the way since you have hold down the caps lock. Its like abbreviating I agree, IA.
"Since the beginning of time, mankind has yearned to destroy the sun and I'll do the next best thing: block it out."