Kramer on Roseanne

Did anyone see Roseanne on Tuesday, 1/11? It had a character who was a friend of Mark's (played by Ahmet Zappa, Frank's son) that appeared to be a takeoff on Kramer. not only did he have the hair, he had the mannerisms and the wardrobe (cardigan, comfortable slacks and a golf shirt). Do you think Roseanne is trying to rip off Seinfeld over that whole parking debacle? Dave

Although that character dressed a little like Kramer, and their hair is similar, I think the issue here is that Kramer unwittingly dresses and looks like a college student. I didn't get the impression that the mannerisms of the two characters were similar, and don't think that the character on Roseanne acted anything like Kramer.

Seems like coincidence to me.

In [email] (Thomas Reynolds) writes:

Good point about the college student thing, but the first thing my dad said when he saw it was "that guy looks like KRamer!" Also, I think Roseanne still has it in for Seinfeld. Dave

This all may be true, but (and realize the I am a huge Michael Richards) the bottomline line is that they are both, as someone pointed out in another post, totally based on Richard Mulligan's character in "Soap." Not that Kramer isn't a great character, but he's clearly doing Mulligan. And hey, one man's homage is another man's rip-off. - dan

DANIEL BENJAMIN SALTZSTEIN ([email]) wrote:

I don't think that either character is "clearly" the mulligan character from soap. I think the only similarity there is between that character and Kramer, and is limited to mulligans odd chaotic mannerisms which were only displayed when the character was excited or cofused...and possibly the naive-suave personality affectation...which was a little different for mulligan's character because he was supposed to be real stupid, where Kramer is funny like this because he is truly naive (or maybe just very complex).

And besides that, Mulligan and Richards are basically two diffent types of comedians. I think that mulligan's character on soap was too tame to be any sort of influence on how Richards does Kramer, or how Seinfeld created him. The two similarities mentioned above would be stretching any sort of an influence.

I agree, Thomas. BUT I don't think Kramer is naive at all. I think he is totally savvy and very intelligent. I think he's just one of the few people who have a handle on the "live and let live" style of living. He's smart enough not to care what other people think of him--he's just who he is and very cool.

I guess what I meant was kind of what you are saying. I did not mean to imply that Kramer is not intelligent...the quality of not caring what people think of you often can seen as being naive. And also, since he is so seemingly unwitting of his own coolness and suave nature, this appears to be naivete as well. Even when his ego comes out, and he says something to the effect of "of course I'm cool, I'm Kramer" which he does every once in a while, you get the impression that he is not quite sure what that means either...and that he is afraid to show that he has just surprised himself with this revelation. And that is a naive quality.

Well put, Thomas. Just like last night when George asked, "Why didn't I get a part in the movie?" And Kramer replied with, "I have a quality." I LOVED IT! The "naive" quality you described above is probably why he can make a statement like that and not come off as being egotistical, and we love him anyway.

My dad is only 50 and to him, anyone younger and wearing similar clothes looks exactly the same. Physically the two characters look totally different except for the hair, and even the hair was a different color.

I'm not sure how Roseanne having it in for Seinfeld would precipitate a character that dressed like Kramer being on her show.

In [email] (Thomas Reynolds) writes:

But how many people do you know wear those 50s polo shirts and cardigans? And if you do know somebody who wears those, how many started wearing them when Kramer did?

Just a chance to tweak Jerry and the guys. I'm not saying it was a big thing: the guy just looked very Krameresque. Dave

I first started noticing that 50's mixed with 60's style here in Chicago while I was still in high school, about '84. That style of dress seemed to be a favorite with latin-americans here, and slowly was adopted by the local college kids (of which Chicago has many), so that by the time I came to Loyola as a student, (1986) it had already become fadish.

The novelty with Kramer dressing this way is that he is way too old to be included with the college kids angle of this type of outfitting. And I don't think that he is latin american. That's why he seems so cool like this. He just doesn't fit in clearly with any group of people. Is it possible that Kramer never changed the way he dressed from when he was about that age...that would make perfect sense.

In [email] (Thomas Reynolds) writes:

That's almost ten years ago! What I mean is, I doubt that it's very popular with college student nowadays. Even when the show started in 1990, fashions that were popular in 1984 would have seemed totally out of it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I see more of a connection between the character on Roseanne and Kramer than with something that was in fashion ten years ago. Dave

Well, I work at a University, and what was beginning to be stylish to college a little over seven (9/86 to 1/94 isn't a span of ten years no matter how you look at it, it's closer to seven...and seven is pretty close to ten...unless you are talking about years) years ago when I was a student, seems to be trendy now. I think that particular style of dress became extremely popular recently with the introduction of Los Angeles or Miami area gangster rap into the mainstream of midewest white suberbia. You will see a lot of the clothes Kramer wears on this type of rap video (or even better, rent Brian DePalma's classic Scarface w/Al Paccio, who plays Cuban refugee that matures from thug to drug lord, set in Miami). Not that this is where Kramer gets his dressing influence. All I am saying is that it seems to me that this is where the current trend picks up it's fashion tips. And this makes the character on Roseanne a little less Jerry-bashing like. Roseanne is supposed to take place somewhere near Chicago (within 3 hours anyway). I have always pictured it around the Illinois State University area in Bloomington-Normal, Macomb (Western Illinois), or Dekalb (Northern Illinois U.). This doesn't have to be true, Mark and his roomate could have been going to College of Dupage Junior College in lovely Glen Elyn...but my point is that that character is a perfect example of this recent trend...that I don't believe is attributable to Kramer. Not that Kramer doesn't have the power to create trends...this one is a little older than Kramer, however.

But maybe college students dress differently in Canada than they do in Chicago.

Around these parts (Buffalo, New York State), you can often identify what college someone goes to by the way they dress. Canisus College students are _extremely_ preppy, in an early 1980s way. Buffalo State students lean towards grunge, gothic and progressive Seattle-looking fashions, and there's a lot of people from Long Island that base their wardrobe on Joey Buffafuoco. Buff State students are probably more MTV-influenced than at other colleges. UB students look very mainstream, and Erie Community Colleg city campus students, white and black, go for the urban look. It's kind of strange seeing white students wearing Africa colored T-shirts that say "BLACK PRIDE" ...

The most Seinfeldian students? UB, although the Kramer "hipster doofus" look is popular at Buff State.

In [email] (Thomas Reynolds) writes:

WEll, it's just that the first date you mentioned was 1984...

I know what you're talking about, but I still see Kramer's dress as slightly different. If it helps, Michael Richards got most of his clothes for the character from thrift shops. Probably the cheapest stuff there (because it would be out of style) would be 50s clothing. I would think that college students would shop there for the same reason. I think the style you talked about peaked in about 87-88, and Kramer is so hopelessly behind the times that he is actually hip. In fact, in _Details_ magazine, they noted a resurgence in polyester cardigans,etc, and attributed it directly to Kramer. None of this is a flame, btw. I think the main connection between KRamer and the character on Roseanne was their laid-back, slacker attitude. Kramer is nothing if not a proto-slacker. Dave

No, no flame taken...and none intended.  But another case in
point...fifties clothes are probably the most expensive you can find at
retail shops in Chicago.   There is a lot of seventiesish stuff that
Kramer wears...that stuff is cheap here...but the vintage '50s and '60s
stuff is like gold.  Details magazine probably watches too much tv to be
considered cutting edge authority.  My experience here, as previously
noted, is that that particular trend has come and gone rapidly since the
mid eighties between different ethnic and age groups...to the point that
it never seemed to have ever been gone.  First one group then the other,
then the first is back, then a third...so that Kramer merely fits into
the chain, but doesn't start it as far as I am concerened.   Not that
Kramer isn't fashionable.  He is a perfect example of the saying, "its
the way one wears the clothes that makes a fashion."  And I
don't think the peak for this particular fashion has happened yet.  I've
noticed that a fair amount of cyber-stuff revolves around fifties and
sixties paraphenalia lately.

I see your point about Kramer being a proto-slacker, but I find that the most damaging evidence to the contrary is the way he gets money. It's like an accident that he knew would happen every time he gets money. The slackers that I know and have known (and you know who you are) all seem to either never have money under any circumstances, get it from rich parents, or work at some fast food restaurant just to pay the rent. If Kramer is a slacker, then he is more like the God that all slackers pray to for miracles.

In [email] (Thomas Reynolds) writes:

All good points. Richards says he bought as much as he could, so I assumed they were pretty cheap. If you go to th Salvation Army, everything's cheap. The Latino kids' style was porbably similar, but with new clothes -- Pendleton and plaid flannel shirts were popular with them before grunge.

Good idea! Kramer would be boring if he had to work at a fast food restaurant. He's what all slackers wish they could be. This is kind of cool -- "The Origins Of Kramer: A Serious Philsophical Discussion" :) Dave