Possible plot inconsistency with Babs

I just noticed this tonight; I don't recall this being discussed here before, so hopefully I'm no rehashing a long-dead debate.

In "The Switch", Kramer goes to see his mother, Babs, after a 5-year estrangement. Upon seeing him, she shouts his first name: "Cosmo!"

Later in the episode Newman encounters Babs, and it's apparent that they already know each other. Yet at the end of the episode, Newman is surprised to hear Babs call her son, "Cosmo".

Doesn't it seem odd that Newman had never heard Kramer's first name if he already knew Babs? Considering that she typically calls her son by his first name, if Newman had known Babs prior to her estrangement from the K-man it seems like he would've heard her call him "Cosmo".

There are a few possible explanations, of course. One is that Newman had only recently met Babs, although from their behavior and knowledge of one another that seems unlikely. Another possibility is that Babs rarely uses Kramer's first name, despite doing so on more than one occasion in this episode. Perhaps in the past he had told her not to use it out of embarrassment, which is why Newman had never heard it when he used to see Babs with her son.

Still, the most likely explanation is that plot consistency was sacrificed for a joke. Any comments?

John Twernbold wrote in message ...

If you'd ever seen my behavior and knowledge of one another with a woman I'd met in a bar the night before, you wouldn't consider this a realistic scenario at all...

I'd suspect that Newman hadn't met Babs over 5 years ago and if she and Cosmo were estranged.. she probably wouldn't have mentioned him to anyone.

homerr..

Possible plausible explanations:

1. Newman only met Babs once in passing, and the name Cosmo was never used. 2. Newman new Babs independently from Kramer (less likely). 3. Also, Elaine seemed to know Babs. At least enough that she knew her first name. I doubt she would have referred to her as Babs so casually if she had never met her in person.

John Twernbold wrote:

Here is an idea in support for a possible #2: I can imagine a scene where Babs comes looking for Cosmo, and he isn't in. Newman comes humming along wearing his postal uniform. Newman doesn't make the connection that this is Kramer's mother, Babs doesn't make the connection that Newman knows Cosmo or even lives in this building. She invites Newman back to her place. This could work since she doesn't know Newman lived in that building and just thought he was the postman doing his route in that building. They flirt, Newman says he is off-duty, they go out, go back to her place. Newman leaves and they have not seen each either other since when we see them meet again on the street. Newman doesn't know about Kramer's first name cause even if Babs had referred to her son by the name Cosmo in their encounter, Newman wouldn't have know it was Kramer in his building.

East

Bruce Baron wrote:

Anything's possible, but that's pretty unlikely. Remember, Kramer's friends (even Elaine) alreadly knew that his mother's name is Babs. The whole "they met and didn't realize each other's relationship to Kramer" is quite implausible, especially since as an off-screen explanation.

Again, anything's possible, but I'm sticking with the writers sacrificing logic for a good joke. :-)

They may have known Kramer's mother's name was Babs and what she does, just like they know of the people Kramer talks about that they never meet. I remember in an interview with the fellow that played Newman, that he said that when asked about if he does any sort of improv in Seinfeld, he said no, cause it would be like jamming with a symphony. What I am trying to say is, I think the story and characters in Seinfeld are pretty tight, so I tend not to believe they got a little sloppy like that just for a good joke. Having said that, I still feel a little uneasy about how Elaine was dating the guy from NBC who she knew was trying to make Jerry's show a success, yet at the dinner she acted very bored about the description of Jerry's show. I have not followed closely the writing and directing credits for each show, but it would be interesting to see if there is a relationship between the creative talent and those shows that we find to have a question of inconsistency.

East

John Twernbold wrote:

Then how do you explain other known inconsistencies where logic was sacrificed for a good joke?

Again, it's not a major continuity gaffe (like others in the Seinfeld "universe"), and it could be explained. But ask yourself this: do you really think the writers were sitting around writing this ep and they fabricated amongst themselves some convoluted story to explain how Newman knew Babs but had never heard her say Kramer's first name? Or is the more likely explanation that they didn't even think of it? Or if they did notice this flaw, that it wasn't worth fildding with because only anal-renentive nitpickers like us would find it? :-)

John Twernbold wrote:

I don't regard this as logic being sacrificed. I think there is an assumed story behind this that isn't being shared with the audience. Newman is on the street, not in uniform, yet Babs knows he is a postal worker and we get the impression they have met before. Which lead me to expand on this theory. I would regard logic was being sacrificed when we see things which step-out of reality totally, like when Kramer falls asleep and wakes up in the river. Or when Newman is shown being burned in the truck and walks out, walking around not in pain but just stunned. In the Michael Richards interview he had with Charlie Rose a couple of years ago, Richards said they have to often cut scenes from the shows because there isn't enough time. This might have happen with the Newman/Babs background and for time decided they could go without it. But I don't think they really wanted to show that to us.

I would question why Jerry living across the hall from Kramer, and Newman, a postal guy weren't able to see from Kramer's mail addressed to him that it had his first name on it or at least a first initial. We let this go, cause we know it is part of the joke. Or that Uncle Leo signs for a package for Jerry as "Uncle Leo" instead of his full name. I think the writers crafted this exactly the way they did knowing that we see how Babs/Newman seem to know each other well the first time they are showned together.

We all understand it is a TV Show and it isn't reality, so some things you have to suspend belief. But a little background story of how two people might have met without sharing this with the audience to me didn't seem like such an inconsistency. It makes me wonder about how they might know each other, but it didnt pull me out of the story so I couldn't enjoy it. When watching a horror movie, we know there is no such thing as Frankenstein, but the story helps us suspend belief to enjoy it, if it is done right. Perhaps for you, this is an inconsistency, for me, it is just a background story they didn't have time to address, and did so likely on purpose for the comic shock value.

So we are anal-renentive nitpickers, not that there is anything wrong with that! :-)

Good discussion, John.

East

I'm guessing that Babs and Neumann didn't see A LOT of each other, and that she probably referred to Kramer as "my boy", or " my son", and that she probably used terms of endearment to Cosmo directly.

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WE MUST BE WILLING TO LET GO OF THE LIFE WE HAVE PLANNED,SO AS TO HAVE
THE LIFE THAT IS WAITING FOR US.

On Fri, 21 Dec 2001 04:31:27 GMT, "John Twernbold" wrote:

Heh...are to expect this is like some sort of magic long lost mother of a main character? I...I mean I hope someone was fired for that blunder. :-)

Scott

"Scott P" write:

Exaaaactly! ;-)

Fired?!?! More like, "I'm giving you a RAISE!" - George

:-)

East

Scott P wrote:

In article , [email] wrote:

Kruger: So that's what you're doing these days? Handing out raises? Okay, whatever.

Re: Babs/Cosmo/Newman - I was under the impression that Newman and Babs had the sort of relationship that really didn't lead to long discussions about one's past or family, think stolen quickies or nooners when the opportunity presented itself, leading to the colliding worlds at the end of the episode. The writing infers that Newman may not have been Babs' only mailman:

(from http://www.geocities.com/tnguym/scripts/TheSwitch.html)

Newman and Babs

BABS: Hi Newman

NEWMAN: Hi Babs

BABS: What are you doin'

NEWMAN: Minding my own business.

BABS: You'll never get into trouble that way.

NEWMAN: What makes you think I'm lookin' for trouble?

BABS: From what I hear you postmen don't have to look too far.

NEWMAN: ha ha ha Well you know sometimes it just has a way of finding you. Cigarette?

• Mark

Right, but how did they meet? Whereas Jerry, George, and Elaine only knew of Babs by name and reputation, Newman recognized her by sight, implying that they had already met. If we assume that Babs generally calls her son by his first name (given her tendency to do so throughout her one appearance), it's likely that Newman would have heard her say it while in his presence, regardless of their activities when Cosmo isn't around.

Again, there are other possible explanation; perhaps Whatley and Babs are neighbors on Newman's postal route. :-)

In article , "John Twernbold" wrote:

I'm guessing by a chance encounter similar to the one in the episode, independently of Kramer, perhaps during the period of estrangement between Kramer and Babs.

But I don't think the three had ever been together beforehand. Recalling Newman's affair with the super's (Mario?) wife, even if he had eventually figured out that Babs was indeed Kramer's mother, he was able to compartmentalize his different relationships until Jerry and the gang burst into his apartment during his would-be follow-up tryst with Babs.

• Mark

So you're suggesting that in a city filled with millions of people, Newman just happens to hook up with a woman who turns out to be his best friend's mother? While theoretically possible, is that the most likely explanation?

In article , "John Twernbold" wrote:

Yup, that's what I'm suggesting. Newman's relationships, much like Kramer's, are apart from the standard 90's dating angst that Jerry, George and Elaine share (break-up rules, etc). What are the odds that Jerry would wind up dating an ex of Newman's ("She wasn't my type") or that Bania would end up dating Jenna?

Damned if I know. Perhaps it's one for the ages. The inconsistency you noted certainly does raise some interesting questions.

• Mark

LOL, excellent point. So the choice is between writers creating scenarios which are astronomically improbable for the sake of a joke, or writers sacrificing continuity for the sake of a joke? ;-)

Another scenario that doesn't require too much suspension of disbelief:

Prior to the estrangement between Cosmo and his Mother, Babs respects his desire to keep the first name a secret, in front of his friends. Then, upon the shock of seeing her son for the first time in five years, she instinctively blurts out "Cosmo!?" in front of George. It's not so jarring in this show, because the characters are so self-absorbed, it's not inconsistent that they regard their blood relatives in roughly the same dismissive manner as the doorman of Mr. Pitts building.

I mean think about, he's agreed to re-establish contact with his Mom, just so George can find out if his super-model GF is bolemic. Talk about suspension of disbelief. How does George meet these gorgeous femininas, anyway?

In a comedy like Seinfeld? The odds are much better than a million to one..

Mo