Gay Conversion - Get real

Couple of things should be said here...

The show was NOT in bad taste or meant to be offensive...

It is a TELEVISION show ...

GET A LIFE!!!

SuaveMan

Boy are you bent outta shape pal. Lighten up, it's only FICTION. Do you also cry when Tom gets Jerry in the cartoons. Get a life.

Lighten up, for God's sake. First of all, there are such things as bisexuals. (Oh, I forgot; nobody likes to admit such a thing exists.) Second, it's not unknown for gay men to get into such a situation with a female friend. (I happen to KNOW this is not unheard of.) Third, it's a harmless joke. How about if people stop bringing up the Nazis everytime they disagree with something!

I am simply amazed that all of the people who have responded to this post have missed the point completely.

This episode of seinfeld indicated that sexual orientation is a choice. It is not. The previous post explained wny it is dangerous to think of it as a choice.

Further, the man is not claimed to be bisexual, but gay. So his conversion is stupid. Even bi-sexuals (people who have sex with both sexes) have a sexual oritentation - that is a sex that you fall in love with.

Oh, and finally the harmless part. Creating the impression that gay men are confused and trying to achieve the "normalcy" of heterosexuality is just about as funny as portraying negroes as lazy, shifty and always in search of the perfect watermelon. Promoting sterotypes, especialy because they have no basis in fact, only reinforces the majority's view and prevents dealing with blacks or homosexuals as individuals.

I'll lighten up when you couch potatoes get off you ass and start saying that the people who stereotype and persecute gays should be shamed. Until then, I will continue to point out when you inadvertantly participate in the shame.

[email] (SporePrint) writes:

In article ,

Um... did you watch to the end of the show? The guy goes back to his own team.

(BTW, if you ever become a porn star, I've got a great idea for your "stage name"...)

Get a sense of humor, you insecure prick!

Tell me Todd, would your sense of humor include (please pardon the word) nigger jokes also? Seems to be. Humor built on stereotypes is offensive, not funny. Grow up and learn that you shouldn't find funny what is insulting to others. Hey Todd, heard any good Polish jokes lately?

[email] (Todd Volz) writes:

In article ,

Well, speaking for myself, that'd depend on the joke...

"When you drove here, did you see the sign on the lawn that says 'dead nigger storage'?"

You read something into this episode that it's difficult to expect many people would see. I fail to see anything offensive in the way this show discusses homosexuality. Would it be better if the show knelt to the righties and avoided the subject altogether?

Leave your anger at the doorstep. This is comedy, one of the only things that separates us from less intelligent animals.

JL
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I have been very nice at replying to your EMAIL ranting is private, trying to encourage a dialog between me (a gay man) and you (someone who probably doesn't have any homosexual freinds - by your writings at least). If you wish to stifle discussion and knowledge in your own life, be my guest. Encouraging an entire newsgroup to stifle discussion only shows that your are as closed minded as your private Emails have indicated.

[email] (Thomas A. Bruno) writes:

GET REAL YOU STUPID BREEDERS?

What gives, man? Now you've gone and hurt my feelings. In response, I have blocked you as an author from appearing on my newreader and I have blocked this silly subject also! Normally, I wouldn't make a point to say anything about my action but I wanted you to know if everyone were to do the same, you would be a lonesome voice in your own sea of despair.

The bank exec that they went out to dinner with was the one that might have been offended by the this guys sexual orientation. I think Seinfeld spoofed that pretty well and made a bit of a social commentary about 'conservative companies'. I am not gay, so I can not profess to understand the mindset of homosexuals, but it seemed to be that the man was bi-sexual. Certain bi-sexuals prefer to refer to themselves as gay, while some do not. This I know for a fact. Now, if it is true that bi-sexuals have one true sexual orientation (this, I do not know) then the episode played true to the concept. After all, he left Elaine.

Good point.

Though I am heterosexual, I would never have the audacity to presume to speak for all heterosexuals. Is this is a trait unique to my inborn sexuality? I doubt it.

Perhaps also, Buck, you are correct in your assertion that "we" all have it wrong and so do the Seinfeld writers. Maybe they should write in a gay character who is angry and defensive at any hetero who even tries to discuss the subject of homosexuality. There is, after all, no possible way "we" could ever understand.

I am highly offended, Mr. Foss. Not by your sexuality, which I wholeheartedly respect, but by your attitude. You make analogies to racial issues which do not merit analogy. What a shame. I'll refrain from further flaming, but I assure you I'd love to go on, with extreme heat.

The film industry is not designed to paint pretty pictures, even on Seinfeld. At the very worst, what was portrayed in the episode that sent you reeling was a depiction of the misinformed attitudes of TWO people. I assure you, right or wrong, there are MILLIONS of people out there with the same attitudes. Get used to it.

Face up to being a minority. Don't get mad at everyone who mentions a real-life public perception of your sexual status, whether the perception is right or wrong. Your life and everyone else's will be much happier as a result.

JL
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For God's sake- the show doesn't "indicate that sexual orientation is a choice"! It indicates that Elaine, a fictional character, mind you, THINKS that it MIGHT be a choice because she's DESPERATE. I guarantee you nobody is going to decide how they feel about gay rights based on a Seinfeld episode.

In article , Buck "Naked" Foss writes:

Don't get out much, do you?

In article ,

Not that there's anything wrong with it...

(Well, *someone* was gonna say it.)

In [email] (Buck Foss) writes:

she's

I'll

just

straight.

you

OH, LIGHTEN UP, IT'S JUST A TV SHOW!!!!! (Caps intentional)

Oh please! I am gay as well, and personally find comments like yours more offensive than the comments that were made to inspire yours. I hate the fact that most straight people will rememmber your prejudice crap, and hold it against the rest of us. I take it you are proud to be gay. I suggest you start acting a little dignified. Until then, no one will respect any of us.

Here, here. Unfortunately this is the stereotype for the 90's.

"You can't be gay, your're friendly and have a sense of humor".

In article , [email] writes:

I didn't notice any "Breeders" all up in arms after the episode where George's former girlfriend (Susan) switched over to lesbianism after having had a heterosexual relationship..... Yet, the gay audience reading this newgroup is having an absolute FIT over this episode where a gay man tries a heterosexual encounter. Seems it's OK for a hetero to become gay, but not the other way around, huh?? Maybe the gay community is afraid of losing some it's "players" to the other team?? :) Diana

Not to be a pest... this is the Seinfeld TV discussion group. I think it would be better if you take your sexual issues and opinions to the according newsgroups.

Thanks,

In response to :

Yeah, I DO get it... I simply pointed out that there were no irate responses from the heterosexual (or gay community either, for that matter!) when a heterosexual "switches teams". Why did no one get all upset and complain that heterosexuality is not a "choice"? It's because the heterosexual audience is not so dang sensitive, and they realize IT'S JUST A "BIT" FOR A SITCOM..... "Switching Teams" is just a silly "bit" for a sitcom... keep repeating that to yourself until *you* get it!

Hmm, why no outrage when some straight person "switches teams???" EVer hear of the religious right? Have you noticed the uproar on teh ChristiaNazi usenet groups over "Serving in Silence"? Are you as stupid as you appear to be?

[email] writes:

I think you are all missing the point. The humor comes from the fact that Elaine would think that he could be converted which is obviously obsurd.

How secure can someone be of their sexuality if they need to hide behind a beard ?

Isnt that really saying Im afraid to tell the world Im gay ? Or Im ashamed to face the world as a homosexual ?

Just a thought.

Good point. Though I'd hardly compare the Nazi persecution of the Jews to the discrimination homosexuals face in society today. Especial now that homosexuality is becoming more widley accepted.

Now on with the show.

Wasnt quite finished...

Considering that a show of homosexuality does not result in death ( except in rare cases ). I think I still have a point about people being ashamed and afraid if they dont come out and stand up for what they believe in. Case in point Gandhi and King. These guys did face physical abuse and even death to stand up for their rights but yet they did.

If people are more concerned about protecting a career, then they really have no right nor justification for anger and bitterness about having to hide their preferences over a lifetime.

I guess we shall agree to disagree.

Until the next time...

[email] (Dan Rippel) writes:

To which I can only reply - what is a life? A good career, a family, children, a nice place to live. Unfortunately, by proclaiming your homosexuality in America you can lose all four. Further, the state will not recognize homosexuals who wish to marry and form a family.

No the government doesn't persecute homosexuals, unless you count the failed don't-ask-don't-tell policy and the fact that homosexual sodomy (as opposed to heterosexual sodomy) is punishable by jail in 23 states. And of course, no one kills homosexuals, unless you read Vanity Fair and ABC' 20/20 and the fact that gaybashing is an accepted sport in Texas and many other areas (included our favorite sensitive PC types - the LA police).

We are not Nazi Germany - yet. But we aren't far from it either.

I know I will get a lot of applause on this next line: Your comments were way off the Seinfeld group. I try to keep my comments in relationship to how Seinfeld has depicted homosexuals, and responses to those comments. Please contact me privately if you have any further statements to make about homosexuals in general and not on Seinfeld

On Sun, 26 Feb 1995, Buck Foss wrote:

Well, George would disagree with you there. Take a deep breath and repeat after me, "It's only a sitcom."

Just curious: were there a lot of angry posts when Jerry and his girlfriend made out in "Schindler's List"? I didn't read this group then.

Ummm....guys? This is humour. At least to some people. I personally found the idea of George "driving" his girlfriend to lesbianism. Yes, I know... it couldn't happen. However, I found it funny because (I can't believe I'm explaining WHY I found something funny. :) ) - anyway, I found it funny simply because that would be about the worst thing that could happent to a guy in a relationship (IMHO). It had relatively nothing to do with the idea of "gay," but rather to the fact that everything "bad" seems to happen to George.

Just my $.04.

Chris

IB>Tonight's episode was a low point. Elaine "coverts" the gay friend she's IB>been a beard for. GET REAL YOU STUPID BREEDERS!

IB>Did anyone reading this ever sit down one day and think, "Gee, I think I'll IB>be attracted to . . ." Sexual orientation is not a choice. If it is, just IB>tell me the day you chose your orienttation . . . yeah, right.

IB>The harm? If one can choose to be gay, then one can choose to be straight. IB>So gay people have chosen to live in their "evil" lifestyle (Thank you, IB>ChristiaNazis). Therefore they are evil and must be destroyed. (Thank you IB>Dick Armey and Nest "fast buck" Gingrich)

IB>Once and for all: Sexual orientation is no more a choice than your eye IB>color or your fingerprints.

Yes, but if you actually watched the whole show you'd see the 'conversion' doesn't work, and don't name-call...YOU STUPID FAG!

I didn't realize that people could be as stupid as you until I started reading this newsgroup. Did you even read my post??? The offense has nothing to do with him going back to homosexuality after being with Elaine. The offensive part is that anyone would be stupid enough to believe that a gay man, obviously firmly committed to his sexuality becuase he was in need of a beard, would explore the other side on a whim. This indicates a perceptions that sexual orientation is a choice, etc. etc. etc.

I thought Seinfeld was a comedy of manners that people of intelligence watched and commented upon. So far I find that many of the posters in this group are a little short of a full deck.

[email] (Trevor Keen) writes:

Let me guess... you didn't start reading this group until last week's episode, right? People interested in serious debates on issues shouldn't watch Seinfeld, because it will never take anything seriously. Especially those interested in one narrow issue. Dave

Steve,

You make a good idea at someone "experimenting" with heterosexuality as someone would "experiment" with homosexuality, but there are fundamental differences. We were all brought up in a straight environment, and pressured into straight acting roles. Whatever experiments we make with heterosexuality usually occur in the high school or early college years. A man who has been through his coming out experience doesn't need to experiment with heterosexuality - he's already lived it by default.

Further, I think there is a lot of humor to be found in a character that is considering "experimenting" with heterosexuality for social reasons, not for internal reasons. I know a number of people who are "gay" internally, but have experimented with straight relationships because they find the intense societal pressures against homosexuals overwhemlming (especially losing your job over it, that's tough.)

Anyway, thanks for a reasoned debate.

[email] (Steve Sauve) writes:

A comedy of manners ? What in the world ... Oh, you mean like say Howard's End. Or some other real funny English movies.

Kramers antics, one of the staples of the show by the way, hardly qualify as mannered. I think one of the appeals of the show is that it isnt mannered. Its rather vulgar. A whole episode about masturbation. Another episode about super BO.

Maybe intelligent people do watch the show maybe they dont. However its easy to see which group you throw yourself into. Please stop looking down upon us. It really hurts my feelings when people are soooo condescending.

Lighten up.

What the heck is wrong with you guys? Why don't you send each other *private* e-mail so the rest of us don't have to read your crap!

SeEYa,

In article ,

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

YOU ARE A FAGGOT, CHECK YOUR REASEARCH YOU CAN CHANGE IF YOU KNOW THE LORD

Regarding Jerry's parents on the show:

I'm sure I'll get roasted for this "heresy," but I find these characters disappointing. Everyone else on the program seems so distinct and far removed from the typical teevee character, and then here are these two, the same old, tired, 'wacky' sitcom parents. As annoying as George's parent's are, at least they are weird in an interesting way (or is it the other way around).

No other complaints.

RC <----- (not Penske material)

Buck, that's it. No more argument.

You chastise a major segment of the population (heterosexuals) without meeting any of them, based on something aired in a fictional TV show. You were NEVER speaking for yourself. You spoke as Homosexuality, NOT as Mr. Foss. That is exactly the reason you have irritated SO MANY people here, who are only guilty of being fans of a pretty good TV show while not being gay.

I've (regrettably) been a part of this diatribe from the start. Though I've seen you change your unbelievably arrogant attitude considerably over the past couple of weeks, you still speak for all gays to all of us who heard your first scream, "GET REAL YOU STUPID BREEDERS", clearly intended as an attack on any and all heterosexuals who read this newsgroup.

You pretty much stereotyped yourself in that noisy introduction (as a narrowminded imbocile). To expect any reasonable interpretation of your mental state from a "majority" of the people reading this crap would be truly absurd. As such, go ahead and get in your last idiotic shots at me and others who know you are not only a Bozo, but a paranoid, gay Bozo. I won't be reading them anymore.

Some of my best friends are gay. They're just normal.