Is Elaine Jewish? (New Evidence)

The show's writers are no doubt playing with our heads. I specifcaly have in mind the show of three weeks ago where Elaine is attending a baby shower & all the women present had jewish features & diction. This in spite of an earlier show which she says to a rabi that she isn't of her faith. The writers are teasing us with ambiguities on end.

Ever hear of Non-Practicing Jewish or Jewish by blood only?

Just like Catholicism, only Jewish.

I'm Jewish by blood - only 1/8th and Catholic by parental choice but I don't practice much of either. Catholic/Jewish? Not so much.

Of course, I had to come over here to bug Tharp!

Now where's my thermal underwear? It's cold down here

Mary

On 22 Oct 1996, David A. Tharp wrote:

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:50:23 -0700, [email] wrote:

what the hell is jewish blood? i defy you to find any difference between a jews blood and a non jews blood other than the ordinary differences present among all people.

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:50:23 -0700, [email] wrote:

what the hell is jewish blood? i defy you to find any difference between a jews blood and a non jews blood other than the ordinary differences present among all people.

Ordinarily I wouldn't respond to your remark in the outragous sarcasm of which it was delivered but I feel a justification is due here. I meant no denegration to the Jewish faith. All I was saying by "blood" and should have said so and will do so here is by generational blood, i.e., marriage. My great-grandfather was Jewish and his children and then his grandchildren and great grandchildren (me). I repeat, there was no denegration intended.

Mary

[email] wrote:

Ooops! Mary's great-grandfather might have been Jewish, but unless she has converted, she is not Jewish. There is no Jewish race, nationality, etc.

It was my understanding of things pertaining to the subject matter that it didn't matter whether you converted or not-"once it was in the blood, it passed down from one generation to the next", unless the way the story was passed down is all wrong as _you_ say it is.

Mary

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Bob Wells wrote:

** Well, there may not be a Jewish race or a Jewish nationality
   but there is certainly some kind of a Jewish etc. aside from
   the religion.  Often we call it the Jewish people.  Here in
   Israel there are a lot of atheists who'd be very insulted if
   you told them they weren't Jewish.

** Well, there may not be a Jewish race or a Jewish nationality
   but there is certainly some kind of a Jewish etc. aside from
   the religion.  Often we call it the Jewish people.  Here in
   Israel there are a lot of atheists who'd be very insulted if
   you told them they weren't Jewish.

                                      Mark L.
                                      [email]
When I first read the original posters words on that, I was offended a
little bit but I'm lopoking at the way that recipe knowledge was handed
down to me. Nothing can penetrate that. If my great grandad says that
side of the family is Jewish, then who am I to dispute him. After all-he
did live to be 102 years. He musta been doin' somethin' right.

Mary

I will jump to Mary's defense. In her clumsy way she was making the accurate point that according to the Jewish religion, if your mother is Jewish then you are too, even if you never set foot in a synagogue.

Bob Wells

Excuse my being a cluts, but when time is of the essense when visiting a newsgroup, you try to get to the point (or at least I do), get it out in the open, over and done with so you can move on to more important things. But thanks for jumping to my defense! :-)

Mary

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Bob Wells wrote:

[email] wrote:

Ah, that would be klutz.

same thing, I admit to it.

Mary

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Bob Wells wrote:

Mikey Miyagi wrote: {snip}

{snip}

It appears to me that Mary was calling herself a cluts(sic), someone corrected her spelling to klutz, and now you've put a curse on her for calling herself a clutz(sic)!

Mary, at the first sign of skin irritation I'd consult a dermatologist. Maybe you can still avoid being "covered" with boils!!!

[email] wrote:

I stand corrected. I was referring to the person who commented on her clumsy way of explaining herself. My mistake. At least she's self-deprecating, something you don't find too often in newsgroup postings.

[email] wrote:

And what's with the quotes around "covered"?

Now, that I have your attention...

I for one, am truly mystified at why so many of you are arguing over whether Elaine is Jewish. Who fucking cares? Is it an superiority-inferiority-complex thing? How could someone as "cool" as Elaine not be Jewish? How could someone this "cool" be Jewish?

For what it's worth, there are numerous examples of Elaine's "non-Jewishness", including her statement to Kramer "But I'm not Jewish". But really, why does it matter? I mean, this is like trying to argue whether Jerry is Jewish. He obviously is, but who cares?

What is disturbing is some people's efforts to ignore plain facts and insist on her Jewishness anyhow. This either indicates they're just shit-disturbers or that they have some psychotic need to identify with Elaine and make her a "Jewish Goddess" they must worship and love. What's the deal here?

I would be just as disturbed if there were a 6month long thread of people claiming that Jerry was not Jewish. This would equally indicate that these are either shit-distubers or people who hate Jews and don't want "cool" people like Jerry to be Jewish.

To ANY of you out there who have been arguing that Elaine is Jewish, Just answer me one question: Why does it matter to you so much?

Just answer ME one question: Why does it matter to YOU so much?

In article , [email] wrote:

Now that I have your attention . . .

Why are you so upset about this? Acknowledge . . . move on.

Todd

"Be polite!" - Dennis Hopper, Blue Velvet

In article , [email] wrote:

Hey, Gussel, I'd prefer if you post to me rather than e-mail, okay? Thanks. In your e-mail you used the word "predictably" to describe me, as in "Predictably, you didn't answer my question." You didn't say which question. Is it the one above?

1. You don't know me, so don't use the word "predictably." 2. I don't give a rat's ass whether any of them are Jewish so I don't bother with those posts. 3. Nobody forces you to open those posts. BYPASS THEM!! Darwin gave you a brain and an opposable thumb, so use them. 4. STOP SWEARING AND INSULTING EVERYONE, PLEASE!!

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.

Still not interested in your .02, which is now devalued against the Mexican peso,

Todd

On 2 Dec 1996 22:00:09 GMT, [email] (Leslie Klein,Ph.D.,P.Eng.) wrote:

these posts by leslie klein w the phd in english are a real hoot. this is like a female professor Erwin Corey. or maybe Imogene coca. Keep it up honey.

In article , lastyear@marienbad says... ->these posts by leslie klein w the phd in english are a real hoot. this ->is like a female professor Erwin Corey. or maybe Imogene coca. Keep it ->up honey.

Nearly all of academia has email now and therefore her email address would be an academic one. Most likely. She just could be an ignorant phd though.

[email] (Leslie Klein,Ph.D.,P.Eng.) wrote:

My god, this English professor is really missing the point, isn't she. (And I'm sure you'd agree that she's bordering on annoying as well.)

Nobody really cares if a fictional character on TV is jewish or not. And if the show Seinfeld were to suddenly pop out of existance, we wouldn't really feel too much angst.

This is called fun. It's an intellectual kind of fun, but still fun. We happen to watch the show because it's well-written and very funny, so we're somewhat experts. Now we're putting seinfeld up to the rigorous testing of reality, to see if it stands up, as well as to laugh.

Taking it apart and examining it piece by piece. Finding contradictions and inaccuracies, and trying to resolve them. We're giving the show new life. The writers themself probably have not put the show up to so much scrutiny -- that's our job.

And so what if I psychotically want to make Elaine a jewish-goddess? It doesn't make me a bad person. Lighten up and go with the flow.

OK, two things, just because I haven't added my two cents worth. 1)

Remember Elaine's 'nipple' Christmas card? It was, after all, a CHRISTMAS card!

Oh, I'm not sure about this, would we have to resort to over-analyzing Calvin and Hobbes instead?

I truly think we are being a little too liberal if we really think this is "intellectual."

Karen

Leslie Klein,Ph.D.,P.Eng. wrote in article ...

ME TOO!

"bel" wrote:

Who cares if she is jewish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SHE IS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BJN

cluts??? since we are on this topic, don't you mean putz?

On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Lillian Bloch wrote:

same thing! ;-)

[email] wrote:

I might be a klutz, but a putz I aint and the first one that contradicts....

Mary

On Sat, 26 Oct 1996, debbie wrote:

In article , [email] (David A. Tharp) wrote:

But one of my Jewish friends says that Jews don't like to hold baby showers, because it's bad luck. Someone else is going to have to confirm this.

"Benes" sounds Czech to me.

Leslie

Leslie Baxter wrote:

I kind of thought it sounded Greek, however, a web search produced home pages of two people with surname "Benes"--one on a Czech server (good guess!) and one in Germany.

This does not necessarily determine the origin of the name, because it was the _server_ names only that determined origin. Just because a Benes has a home page in a .cz or .de domain does not have to mean that they are from those countries; or, more importantly, that their families are necessarily of that nationality. There's a very good chance, though.

Well, as you can probably tell by my last name my family is Czech. I have heard of the name Benes in the Czech language before. You pronounce it 'Benesh'. This fact still does not determine whether Elaine is Jewish or not although most Czechs are Catholic. But in the episode where Jerry and Elaine become God Parents (funny, funny episode) (2 words: Pig Man!!) Elaine doesn't know what a moyle(sp?) is. Maybe she isn't Jewish but... I really have no concrete evidence for that. 'Till the next episode. -Tami

I'm circumcised

Do you think it's possible that I could be Jewish?

Perhaps I could send a photo to Mr. Tharp, he seems to be an expert.

Stereotypes? I have a Fisher. One of those old tube kind. (Isn't Fisher a Jewish name?)

In article , [email] (Leslie Baxter) wrote:

It is said that it is bad luck to give gifts for a baby before the baby is born, according to me. Then again I don't quite look Jewish today, so I might not be an expert.

Gary

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 15:48:59 -0600, [email] (Gary Binyamin) wrote:

gifts are okay but it is bad luck to have the nursery all ready. sheesh (grin) and by the way i am no shiksa and i look nothing like elaine y'all.

I doubt Elaine is Jewish. Her father's name is Alton Benes, and I've never met a Jew named "Alton." It sounds very WASPy. Plus, he is a famous writer and a tough guy in the Hemingway mold (as played by Lawrence Tierney). Looking at the way Morty Seinfeld and Frank Costanza are portrayed (and, yes, I know Frank's Italian, but Jerry Stiller is very Jewish and FC does come across as a member of the tribe), Alton Benes is about as far away as you can get from the stereotype.

There is no way Elaine is Jewish. Not only is the episode with the rabbi overt evidence that she is not, the fact that she is from Towson MD is conclusive proof for anyone who knows the Baltimore area. Towson is classic WASP country. One of the writers must be from Balmer, and obviously knows this.

I'm not sure that Towson is so solidly WASPy, at least not anymore.

But otherwise, you're right. Elaine specifically told the rabbi that she was "not of his faith." Furthermore, she has worn crosses around her neck on several episodes.

--Sean Peirce

Sean, I agree about the "Towson, MD" as more evidence that she is NOT Jewish, along with all the others. I am from Balto. too. Marcie

and... as was mentioned last time the topic came up...

(a) Before she plunges into a room that is being fumigated, she crosses herself

(b) When the only meal left on her plane flight is a
    kosher meal, she says "I don't want a kosher
    meal!  I don't even know what a kosher meal is!"

And by the way, George's mother is Jewish but his father the Italian is not.

Thank you, Mark. In short, the evidence that Elaine is not Jewish relates to religious beliefs and practices, while the "evidence" that she is Jewish is presented in terms of how people sound, act, look, who they associate with, etc.

Doesn't seem too difficult to me.

Bob Wells writes:

Mark Levinson wrote:

Which makes George Jewish, doesn't it, because it's considered to be passed down through the mother ?

Thank you, Mark. In short, the evidence that Elaine is not Jewish relates to religious beliefs and practices, while the "evidence" that she is Jewish is presented in terms of how people sound, act, look, who they associate with, etc.

Here's some real life "evidence". I have a friend who was raised in Ohio and always disliked (what she perceived as) the extreme blandness of the environment. When she went off to school, she wound up being surrounded by a lot of NYC and Florida type Jews (eg. Jerry and his parents, respectively) and picked up many their more interesting mannerisms and speech patterns. Coincidentally, she also has a prominent nose. Those who argue that Elaine is Jewish based on the way she acts would think my friend is Jewish too. Ironically, my friend is an Arab.

In article Mark Levinson writes:

Also, she didn't know where to find a moyle. She had to look in the yellow pages.

Laura.

On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 18:33:48 GMT, [email] (Laura Fenn) wrote:

right laura. we all know shiksas can't even spell it (mohel)

Not only that, but remember when she confided in the rabbi about being jealous of George's engagement? Well, after Elaine finds out the Rabbi spills the beans to everyone he meet, Jerry says "You know, Elaine, don't think the precludes members of my people from hording a nice juicy secret all to themselves".

Elaine is not a Jew. Who really cares? Why does she have to be a Jew?

And, when her father was on wasn't he portrayed as kind of a bigot. I thought he had some problems with Jerry and George because they are Jewish.

In article , [email] (David A. Tharp) wrote:

JEWISH FEATURES AND DICTION?!? Let me guess--I'll bet some of your best friends are Jewish?

Mr. tharp no doubt lives in a flyover state. he probably knows jewish people and doesnt even realize it, because their "features and diction" are just like his.

What is a flyover state?

A flyover state is any state that most people would have no reason to ever visit. Examples: Wyoming, Iowa, Ohio, Nebraska, Kansas, etc. :)

So, what are you saying?

Leslie, note that I -- intentionally did not include Illinois. My point is that much ignorant crap about Jewish people comes from places like this, large portions of which contain few if any Jews. So people like Tharp, professing knowledge about Jewish mannerisms and diction, in fact has no idea what he is talking about, and is merely broadcasting the kind of stereotypes he most likely heard from adults as a child.

granted you are more than likely correct about the erstwhile mr. tharp; do realize that he brought up a question which seems to be plaguing many. please don't turn this into a p/c witch-hunt.

is the pope catholic?

Leslie Malter wrote in article ...

A state you fly over on the trip from New York to Los Angeles.

--Sean Peirce

[email] (Arminpasha) writes:

What is a flyover state?

It's a snobby term referring to all the states that someone jetsetting from one coast to the other (although, probably more specifically, from LA to NYC) would fly over without stopping in (due to the lack of culture and money).

Bob Wells wrote:

Aaaahhh, I get it: it's fine-and-dandy to abase and stereotype socioeconomic or cultural aspects of a person ("flyover state") but dare not do so with religous or ethnic aspects of a person or ye shall be labled a fool by the almighty hypocrite Mr. Wells.

Ah SKUG, surely you are the master of overstatement and illogic. It is simply a fact that there are far fewer Jews in most states between the coasts. Ergo, less chance for someone like Tharp to learn that the stereotypes he has ingrained on his head are not true.

And what about your stereotypes, Mr. Wells? You claim that those from "flyover" states are unexposed to, and thus ignorant of, Jewish culture. From this, you reason that "flyover" people are unqualified to make any statment pertaining to Jews or the Jewish faith.

At the same time, you *rush* to judgement of people from these so-called flyover states, while defining a flyover state as (and I quote) "any state that most people would have no reason to ever visit." Presumably, then, you have spent no time or very little time in "flyover" states; yet, you're qualified to judge, much less criticize, these regions and their residents.

There is an inherent contradiction here: you lambast Mr. Tharp for making a statement regarding Jews, focusing your attack on the presumption that Mr. Tharp is from a "flyover" state and, as such, has had little to no exposure to Jews. At the same time, you make derogatory statements regarding "flyover" states while implying that you have never been and have no reason to go there. So what is your critiques based upon?

And you call me "the master of illogic". Why not just call me a "hick"? It seems discrimination against and denigration of "rural-Americans" ;-) is not only acceptable but welcomed and encouraged.

While we're on the subject, let us not forget which region of this nation boasts the greatest level of economic parity and finest system of public education; let us not forget which region of this nation boasts the lowest level of unemployment and the lowest crime rate: it's them thar "flyover" states with all we ignorant folk. So, please continue to enjoy the endearing and enlightening diversity of your urban cesspools; perhaps we "hicks" will be truly enlightened and truly tolerant when we pass $5 million dollar homes and then, five minutes later, dilapidated housing projects on our way to work. Yeah, you certainly have diversity.

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, djk wrote:

I'M PRETTY SURE THAT ELAINE IS NOT JEWISH. THINK BACK TO THE "NIPPLE" EPISODE WHERE SHE REALIZES THAT HER NIPPLE IS SHOWING IN THE CHRISTMAS CARD AND SHE THEN NAMES OFF A SMALL LIST OF PEOPLE WHO SHE CAN'T BELEIVE GOT THE CARD. ONE OF THEM IS FATHER CHELIOS. I HARDLY THINK SHE WOULD SEND CHRISTMAS CARDS PERIOD IF SHE WAS JEWISH, LET ALONE TO A PERSON NAMED FATHER CHELIOS. SHE ALSO DID NOT KNOW WHAT A MOYLE WAS IN "THE BRISS" EPISODE. IF YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE, WRITE BACK AND I'M SURE I CAN COME UP WITH MORE.

wrote:

On this week's episode, when Kramer asks Elaine to come to the Jewis singles, she says that she is not Jewish.

A little sensitive arent we?

In article , [email] (Barry Gaudet) wrote:

No. You're just a little dim-witted. Read the rest of this guy's posts and then tell me he's not an anti-semite.

djk

Oh come on, don't you know that all Jews are overly sensitive and defensive? :)

On 24 Oct 1996 17:20:45 GMT, [email] (DAVID JELINEK) wrote:

right DAVID JELINEK, and men who use all caps for their names have small dicks.

In a previous article, Born@Yesterday (B. Dawn) wrote: ->On 24 Oct 1996 17:20:45 GMT, [email] (DAVID ->JELINEK) wrote: -> -> ->>Give me a goddamn break. Are you going to tell me that I'm a racist ->>just because I can usually pick out Jews by the way the talk and look? ->> ->>That's not racist -- it's honest. -> ->right DAVID JELINEK, and men who use all caps for their names have ->small dicks.

It's just shrinkage.

In article , [email] (djk) wrote:

wrote:

OK, you can't tell someone is Jewish by features and diction but surely the relationship between family and faith, and the fact that there is a "jewish community", as occurs in many countries like the USA that have very few natives, means that features and diction can give clues about ethnic/religious origins.

Ciaran,

If only I knew what the hell you were talking about, I would be happy to respond. Could somebody out there untangle this poor gent's syntax, please?

djk

[email] (David A. Tharp) writes:

The show's writers are no doubt playing with our heads. I specifcaly have in mind the show of three weeks ago where Elaine is attending a baby shower & all the women present had jewish features & diction. This in spite of an earlier show which she says to a rabi that she isn't of her faith. The writers are teasing us with ambiguities on end.

• A baby shower is a non-religious event.
• There are a lot of Jews in the NYC area.
• At least one woman (the one on the right of the screen) appeared more WASP-ish than Jewish.

Conclusion: This scene says nothing about Elaine being Jewish or not.

Stop writing this shit, you idiot!!!! What the hell are "jewish features and diction"?? if that's what you think "jewish" people sound like, then i will have to call the authorities and revoke your privileges to mingle with the general populace. you are a fool!!!!!

And she seems to only hang around with George, Kramer, and Jerry. Does that mean that she's really a man?

On 23 Oct 1996 02:28:43 GMT, "James D" wrote:

ah so THAT's why she cut her hair so short. gotcha.

you can go to a shower of a Jewish person and not BE JEWISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had the somewhat errry felling that I was watching a Hadassah meeting. Think about it. Why so many Jewish women in the same place?

As George Bernard Shaw said... "... Why not?", have so many Jewish women in the same place? Do you have a problem in stereotyping or generalizing, or label making that being Jewish is deviant to congregate in the same place? Are you afraid of them?

Diversity would be a nice change of pace!

Mary

On 23 Oct 1996, David A. Tharp wrote:

WHERE IN THAT SCENE DOES IT SAY ANY OF THOSE WOMEN ARE JEWISH?

more often than not, i have this question about george's family... but let me tell you that i believed (that is, believe _D_ past tense) that she was jewish... but then i saw a repeat of the episode with the bris. as i recall she did not know what a mohel is ("Moyl").

unless i am just showing my jewishness, wouldn't that be pretty much like saying she's not a jew?

--sid

Elaine is not jewish. Tonite's show Kramer is doing a singles dinner for Jewish group. Kramer says he's not jewish, Elaine chimes in "I'm not either."