Pie refusal

Jerry's date's refusal to share his pie from his plate carried the hidden message that she was likely to be frigid. The pie symbol is sufficiently explict as a metaphor for sex. Sharing the plate and sharing a bed require a willingness for closeness.

But does Jerry's refusal to eat Poppie's pizza after he failed to wash his hands carry a similar message? Hm....

Richard

Oh, yeah, and if you follow this logic, Mom's Apple Pie takes on a whole new context...

In article , [email] (Richard Amaro) wrote:

Whoa, I think you're grasping at straws here.(Where does that saying come from anyway?) Does anybody else see this metaphor? Just a guess, but are you a Psych. major? ;)

Thomas

Meaning of pizza refusal? Jerry wasn't about to take any crap from his date's family.

Seinfield scripts are rife with metaphors:

Question...in which episode were Jerry and Kramer banned from the fruit store? The "Faking It" episode. How many fruit/sex metaphors are there? cherries...tomatoes...melons...apples...(banned from the Garden of Eden?) Let's get with it, lit majors.

-- Richard Amaro

	Didn't we go through all of this once already when the episode
	was first aired!!?

JBP

Let me guess... you still subscribe to "Psychology Today", right?

I've shared plates with female friends many times, and I've never thought of it that way. I think the metaphor it carries is that we all sometimes do things for a reason that we don't want to explain even to the closest person.

In an article, [email] (Richard Amaro)>writes:

One could just as easily argue that her refusal to eat the pie carried the hidden message that she was hot-to-trot and couldn't wait to jump Jerry's bones. The pie is symbolic of Sexual Delay Frustration, a major cause of Sudden Pounce Disorder, and often leads to Master of Your Domain Deficiency.

Ron

But remember where they are! In many locations throughout the US, peep refer to pizza as a pie! So, I would say the answer to your question is YES! Hhhhhmmmm....!

The issue of the date's pie refusal centers on her reasoning which she never stated. Jerry was clearly concerned about her refusal and wanted to uncover her reason. Elaine offered that she broke up with someone because they never offered her bites of their food, suggesting the link between sharing and intimacy. Jerry questioned the ladies in the restaurant to determine attitudes concerning sharing of apple pie. Finding support for his argument that anyone would accept an offer of apple pie from another's plate, he was further upset to learn that his date was seen eating apple pie at the restaurant. For Jerry, his date's refusal to share the pie from his plate could only lead to one conclusion: she was unwilling to be intimate, perhaps swap saliva in the exchange. Jerry's "intimacy boundary" was ironically tested in the extreme situation of Poppie's failure to wash his hands following a bathroom visit.

THe show's theme centered on intimacy and boundaries. We're talking about sex...not pie in the sky.

[email] (Richard Amaro) writes
   The issue of the date's pie refusal centers on her reasoning which she
   never stated. Jerry was clearly concerned about her refusal and wanted to
   uncover her reason.  Elaine offered that she broke up with someone
   because they never offered her bites of their food, suggesting the link
   between sharing and intimacy. Jerry questioned the ladies in the
   restaurant to determine attitudes concerning sharing of apple pie.
   Finding support for his argument that anyone would accept an offer of
   apple pie from another's plate, he was further upset to learn that his
   date was seen eating apple pie at the restaurant. For Jerry, his date's
   refusal to share the pie from his plate could only lead to one
   conclusion: she was unwilling to be intimate, perhaps swap saliva in the
   exchange.  Jerry's "intimacy boundary" was ironically tested in the
   extreme situation of Poppie's failure to wash his hands following a
   bathroom visit.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. What totally unnerves Jerry is that his date refused to give any reason whatsoever for not eating the pie (which is the same thing he does when he refuses to eat Poppie's pizza pie). When he talked to the women in the next booth, he was trying to confirm that even though the one woman didn't share the pie, she gave a specific reason for it. Notice in the first scene that Jerry was not upset that his date would not share pie - he just kept on eating. It was when he started giving reasons and she refused to confirm any of them or give one of her own that he became unglued. When he later finds out that she ate the same pie at the same restaurant, it really really bugs him because it removes a big rationalization for her previous behaviour.

So, the pie episode is not about the intimacy issue at all, but rather Jerry's excessive need to understand everything. It's not about the date's inability to be intimate, but rather Jerry's inability to understand that real healthy intimacy allows for some degree of privacy/secrecy.

Recently, Blo of Oracle wrote: ****** Wrong, wrong, wrong. What totally unnerves Jerry is that his date refused to give any reason whatsoever for not eating the pie (which is the same thing he does when he refuses to eat Poppie's pizza pie). When he talked to the women in the next booth, he was trying to confirm that even though the one woman didn't share the pie, she gave a specific reason for it. Notice in the first scene that Jerry was not upset that his date would not share pie - he just kept on eating. It was when he started giving reasons and she refused to confirm any of them or give one of her own that he became unglued. When he later finds out that she ate the same pie at the same restaurant, it really really bugs him because it removes a big rationalization for her previous behaviour.

So, the pie episode is not about the intimacy issue at all, but rather Jerry's excessive need to understand everything. It's not about the date's inability to be intimate, but rather Jerry's inability to understand that real healthy intimacy allows for some degree of privacy/secrecy.

***********

Blo....three wrongs don't make a right.

Your answer, while a clever attempt to justify an untenable position, fails to answer the question we are all asking: why did the date refuse the pie? Her refusal to supply an answer is key. She was embarrassed to admit her unwillingness to eat from the same plate. Look at the way she was dressed. She's a classic "anal retentive." She's the epitome of fastidiousness. The irony is that her beloved Poppie is sloppy. Another irony, Jerry finds himself in the identical position: refusing to eat pie while too embarrassed to admit why.

Intimacy is also key. Had they known each other better, each would have felt free to supply the other an answer.

In article [email] (Richard Amaro) writes:

Oh BROTHER! Since when is simple TV supposed to be analyzed to death? I personally thought she refused the pie because she was full. When they had finished their meal, he said something like,"Boy, that was good." and she said something like, "Yes, it was just enough." She was probably trying not to overeat on a date and embarrass herself. She didn't want to tell him why because he was being annoying by bugging her to take a bite. I would have dumped the pie in his lap!

In article , [email] writes:

REALLY. You people are analyzing this too much!! The thing that irked Jerry so much was thet she didn't give an explanation, as he implied when he asked the woman in the booth next to him (she gave a reason, so she wasn't "psycho"). Jerry didn't care what her reason might have been, just that she gave none (this is all really obvious). Of course she was anal... the plot device wouldn't have worked if she was free-spirited, happy-go-lucky. The wrote her anal so it would make more sense when she refused the pie. But let's not get too Freudian here. What bothered Jerry was that she didn't give a reason... nuff said!

Brother John

Richard Amaro wrote:

   Your answer, while a clever attempt to justify an untenable position,
   fails to answer the question we are all asking: why did the date refuse
   the pie?  Her refusal to supply an answer is key.  She was embarrassed to
   admit her unwillingness to eat from the same plate.  Look at the way she
   was dressed.  She's a classic "anal retentive."  She's the epitome of
   fastidiousness.  The irony is that her beloved Poppie is sloppy.  Another
   irony, Jerry finds himself in the identical position: refusing to eat pie
   while too embarrassed to admit why.

   Intimacy is also key. Had they known each other better, each would have
   felt free to supply the other an answer.

But Richard, don't you see that by pushing the issue of why the date refused the pie, you have fallen into the exact same mental/psychological trap that Jerry did ? You, like Jerry, refuse to simply accept that she didn't want pie. You insist, nay, demand to know why she didn't. Richard, dear Richard, I beg you, OPEN YOUR EYES ! How far will you take this incessant, almost deadly cat-killing curiosity ? Don't you recognize that your all-consuming need to know is nothing short of attempted mental rape of the poor woman ? To what limits will you take this fetish ? Will you write her letters demanding an explanation, and then when there is no response, registered mail ? Will you call her, first during the mid-evening, when she's most likely to be home, then crossing the lines of ettiquette, during the 6pm to 7pm window, when polite folk know not to call because that's usually the dinner hour ? Will you then proceed to risk her livelihood and yours by calling her at work, then going to her workplace ? Will you follow her as she runs her errands, trail her as she meets with friends for dinner and theatre, scope her as she enjoys a late night treat at Thom's at Broadway and 111th, finally cornering her in the dark alley next to her apartment building, screaming at the top of your lungs, "WHY DIDN'T YOU EAT THE PIE ?"

Personally, I think she was just full.

BTW, I hate to have to say this, but ....

Marilyn wrote:

And Brother John added:

• REALLY. You people are analyzing this too much!!

Relax, folks. If this thread is getting too cerebral for you, feel free to ignore it. Those among us who are devoted to the Sein know that, with his move to Thursdays this past season, he has picked up many new fans, ones who were not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate his humour and insights before the endless stream of masturbation, nose picking, orgasm faking, breast implant, bad breath, body odour, constipation and shrunken peepee jokes. And it's OK by us.

And she talks about us taking things too seriously. At least we're not advocating the senseless staining of innocent garments.

In article ,

Watch who you call a Seinfeld-neophyte. I may be new to this newsgroup but I've been watching the Sein since he went on as a spring replacement in 1990 (I wish I could say I've been there since day one, as I'm sure some of you can). Now that I've defended my honor, what I meant by "you people are analyzing this too much" is that the answer is actually very simple, not that it should't be discussed. I don't think there was ANY underlying reason for the pie refusal, or it could be whatever reason you like. The point is she refused without giving a reason, and this was what got on Jerry's nerves so much. You can debate 'til the cows come home why she did it, but I don't think the writer's intended there to ever be a reason. The bottom line is that any reason wouldn't make it funnier, the unexplained refusal is what's funny. There doesn't have to be underlying reason for everything to make comedy "sophisticated." In fact, a lot of Seinfeld's sophistication comes from its simplicity.

Brother John

	Jerry's date isn't the only one who was anal retentive.  Jerry,
in his desire to know everything about everybody, couldn't live with the
fact that SHE JUST DIDN'T WANT ANY PIE.  She might've given a reason if
they had been closer, or maybe she didn't give one because she felt
embarassed.  In any case, Jerry's need to know (as well as his
unwillingness to let it go) shows that HE is, in fact, anal retentive.
	Besides, I don't think that Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld meant
this subject to be scrutinized to death anyway.