Favorite episodes...

My three top favorite episodes would have to be in order of the least to best:

3.    The Soup Nazi
2.    Kenny Rogers Roaster
1.    The backwards episode

Who's with me??????????

• Mail Fraud
• Soup Nazi
• The Wager

-Bob

• The Bus Boy -- No question, Elaine and George are great
• The Parking Garage -- More basic but brilliant comedy
• The Contest -- George steals another one

Couldn't single out a 'favourite' depends on my mood. Here are some which just spring to mind.

- The Blood "You've got three pints of Kramer in you buddy"

- The Close Talker (Whats the name?) Because I know a real bonafide never fail close talker. I love this episode.

- The Marble Rye Just hijinks and capers, good Kramer story.

- The bottle deposit "I want to learn, I want to know why" Seeing Kramer force Newman to drink all those bottles one after the other, and Newman stealing bottles off homeless people.

-The Calzone heh, Kramer! =) (What is the episode where George says 'heh, Kramer' as he tilts his head (also once in the chair with the fridge, summer of George), is it the one where Jerry goes all mushy??)

"Never been a big fan *cough*"

"Kenny!?"

You mean the Betrayal?

Mike Brown wrote

Definitely in my top 3

Yeah that's great - when Kramer and Jerry switch is good.

I hate this one. Theres no laughs.

"Joe3k" wrote in message news:[email]...

the Kenny Rogers episode had a few good gags, it was kinda stupid to my way of thinking (altho I agree the Jerry-Kramer switch thing was funny-- an example of what's wrong with it tho, it is really just one scene and not explored beyond that gag).

The backwards episode reminded me of an art house movie-- meant to impress the critics but virtually unwatchable (and I do believe that it did win an award for directing or writing). The literary references are clever, but how much of the viewing audience got the Harold Pinter nods?

I started watching it from 7 onwards as I am from the UK. I am now watching it from the begining on VCD but I havent found it as funny so far - just reached the pilot. The seasons 7-end are what Seinfeld is to me and the earlier ones don't seem too similar.

Craig Gordon wrote

In article , [email] says...

I'm with you on The backwards episode (the Betrayal) but not on the others, I put instead : The Hamptons The Contest

I think clearly the top 3 in no particular order for me are:

The Outing The Contest The Hamptons

It's too hard to pick the rest. Mainly they'd come from the 1992-1993 and 1993-1994 seasons.

I don't think anything from the first 15 or so episodes to the last two seasons are top 10 material, not even top 20 for that matter. I may have to check, but I'm pretty solid on that.

"Peter Cavaliere" wrote in message news:pxb99.103$[email]...

to

contest my first and the outing my third, with the Hamptons the fourth.

Nothing from the first 20 epsiodes deserves to be there, and it was just a different show after LD's departure that I really don't consider it the same series-- sort of a new series with the same cast (It's actually been done before-- Corbin Bernsen had a series that flopped about 10 years ago. They retooled to to a completely new show but kept the core cast. That's how I think of the last two seasons).> --

to

See, I diasgree about the final two seasons. The Pothole, The Butter Shave, The Serenity Now, and the brilliant, though not extremely funny, The Betrayal are classics, IMHO. I do agree that overall the seasons weren't as strong as, say, five and six, but there were some great episodes.

"techboi" wrote in message news:[email]...

episodes.

There were more "yucks" maybe in those episodes, but, again IMO, they were generally stupid yucks, more fitting to a different show than seasons 1-7 (which is why i made my "different show" comment").

Yes, the idea of Newman wanting to eat Kramer cuz he's basted in butter and seasoned is a funny concept, I laffed at it, but I defy you to name me one similar joke of that nature from the previous seasons (there are plenty of jokes like that from seasons 8 and 9, which is kinda the point), Many of these shows had no basis in reality (including, for the most part, the Butter Shave), whereas, in seasons 1-7, they were virtually ALL grounded in reality (unlike any other recent sitcom). .

To me, at least, that's what made this show (and MTM, the Dick Van Dyke Show and Barney Miller) a great sitcom-- these were real people, maybe slightly exaggerated for effect, but people you could identify with and say "I know him." Sorry, not in the last 2 seasons, at least not for me, but you are entitled to your opinion and I respect your right to it. To me, it had become another sitcom yuck fest

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:49:48 GMT, "Craig Gordon" wrote:

<season 8/9 discussion>

I am with you Craig. Up until seasons 8 and 9 the writing was based on Jerry's observational hunour and Larry David's real experiences. They wrote about things real people could identify with; mostly human relationships and personal failure and triumphs. 8 and 9 became less real and were based on sillier situations.

Exactly! They gave you good laughs the first time they were on and the first rerunning. But in syndication, I rarely find myself with more than a smile.

I've watched seasons 4-7 dozens of times, some episodes I would dare say almost 100 times (maybe too high a number) and still crack up.

The last two seasons were just too slapstickish and silly. The first seven (?) seasons were able to get jokes across without being visual.

Here's the problems with the last two seasons: The characters became charicatures of themselves. Kramer went from eccentric to a person with some kind of mental disorder. George was just the jerk of all jerks. Elaine was a total bitch.

The ideas just fell flat halfway through. The new writers would grasp at straws to tie the storylines together and bring back old characters.

Some prime examples of how bad the show got:

1. Newman trying to eat Kramer 2. Jerry chasing Newman around the building. 3. The photo guy drawing a cartoon character into the picture. 4. Kramer trying to slice a cyst (if I recall) off Kruger and Kruger letting him. 5. The baloon of oil they dropped on the woman and nobody got in trouble. 6. The Peterman Reality tour when Kramer can't dump the garbage. 7. Bringing back the Jiffy Park guy to run the Jiffy Garbage Lot (or whatever it was called).

Those are some and granted, some of these incidents did happen with other characters in the Larry David years. But it was too much.

The show should have ended when Susan died and Larry left. Were there funny moments after that? Sure there was, but it ruined the Seinfeld legacy.

"Peter Cavaliere" wrote in message news:cxi99.20$[email]...

a

seven

funny

funny,

were

1-7

one

of

slightly

know

makes me think perhaps we are in a bigger minority than I would have thought. Quite a few people keep talking about the Butter Shave or the Betrayal as being one of their favorites, and I find both of those episodes weak, so I wonder if perhaps it's a cultural or an age thing.

So, for the sake of research, I would like to ask everyone who chipped in here how old they are: Personally I was born on 4-29-54 and if you do not know the significance of that date, do a little research! (And, yes, that honestly is my birthday!) I am an American. Those of you who liked the season 8 and 9 episodes, please share similar information.

I'm 25 years old, like seasons 8 and 9 as much as any other season (Butter Shave: my favorite). and I AM CANADIAN (here, that's how you use caps bahareh2001n).

I'll play along. I was born in '63 in Calif. I like many of the post-LD episodes, although I agree they sacrificed continuity and plausibility for cheap laughs. I enjoy The Soul Mate, The Chicken Roaster, The Summer of George, The Serenity Now more now, than when I first saw them. At first, the absurd, unreal situations annoyed me, but now I look past the flaws and just laugh. George, Kramer and Elaine did descend into self-parody, but who could do a parody of George better than George himself?

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:38:52 GMT, "Craig Gordon" wrote: . . .

Yes, you share Jerry Seinfeld's exact birthday.

"TheNewsGuy(Mike)" wrote in message news:[email]...

Mike I knew you'd know it, was curious who else would chip in! You now let the cat outta the bag!

In article , [email] says...

Hi Greg! Or is it Craig? Stay to that Rockford Files...

"Noone" wrote in message news:[email]...

let

Not E-an! EEN!

I am 31 yrs old, and no I don't think the last 2 seasons were nearly as funny as the earlier ones. Bob

<<<Some prime examples of how bad the show got: .....SNIP...... 5. The baloon of oil they dropped on the woman and nobody got in trouble.>>>

"Darren's going away for a long, long time."

^^^^^^ "Art is often hailed as the grandest expression of human spirit, but we know now ... that the grandest expression of human spirit is whatever it takes for a man or woman to rush back into a burning building to save more people."

I meant Kramer or George.

"Craig Gordon" wrote in message news:...

Well, I guess we're continuing the same debate from the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" thread. Yes, the show did get progressively sillier in seasons 8 & 9 but this was the continuation of a trend that began before Larry David left. I think you're really overstating by calling it a "different show".

Consider "The Bottle Deposit" from season 7 - though admittedly late in the going. Here we have Jerry's mechanic stealing his car and then tossing JFK's golf clubs out the back to impede the progess of a mail truck that Newman and Kramer are using to haul empty bottles to MI for a better return rate after Newman had been force guzzling bottles of soda just to collect more empties! This is totally absurd and I didn't even mention the whole farmer's daughter scene near the end. This show would have been totally at home in seasons 8 or 9. Earlier on in the series we had the pig man and "the Barber" ep which was definitely a heightened reality. One of their early breakthrough episodes was "the Boyfriend" and the whole takeoff on "JFK" was very funny - but also totally ridicurous (as Donna Chang would say).

And the hallmark of silly sitcoms, like "Laverne & Shirley" (I'm still smarting over you comparing "Seinfeld" to L&D over at that other thread) is getting the characters to wear ridiculous costumes. They did this throughout their peak era in shows like "The Puffy Shirt" and the Goretex (sp?) jacket in "The Dinner Party". The difference was that on "Seinfeld" this stuff was funny and was worked into the plot to create better laughs (altough I'm not a big fan of "The Dinner Party"). IOW, they simply did it well.

Again, I think the show got worse in the last couple of seasons and it did get more surreal as well. But it was changing and some of that surreality was inspired and was very funny. "The Gum" (also from the late Davidian period in season 7) was profoundly silly but funny as all hell and it's one of my favorite episodes. I think it and "The Diplomat's Club" are the two most underrated episodes while "The Airport" and "The Bubble Boy" are the two most overrated.

There's a thread idea for you: most overrated and underrated episodes.

So in conclusion, no doubt that Larry David was vitally important to the quality of the show but this revisionist theory that he was the brilliant auteur behind the show's greatness is a load of bunk. Only a French intellectual could buy into that crackpot auteur theory anyway. TV comedy is a collaborative art.

IMO, you could chart the quality of the show over its run and would look like the Rock of Gibraltar: a steep ascent at the beginning and a gradual tapering off near the end.

Aren't most sitcoms realistic but pedestrian and boring?

I agree with you on the first two but I never cared much for BM. Every character on the show was deadpan! It was too monotonous. People do actually laugh sometimes in real life. At least people around me, but maybe that's 'cause they're around me :-)

"steve horan" wrote in message news:[email]...

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Well, first off, I did not say (and did not mean to imply) that all season 2-7 episodes were gems-- but the show sure had a high percentage of winners, and a lot of those winners were a lot funnier than anything else I've seen on TV the last 20 years (previous best Sit Com was WKRP to me, although I liked Cheers a lot).

Now, I would take any one of those epiosdes that you mentioned above and say to you-- "Yeah, that could happen"-- likely to happen? NO of course not, COUILD IT? Sure. And I thought The Boyfriend was hilarious and clever as hell-- no offense, but maybe you didn't get the joke, a very cerebral episode (and I won't get into that rumor thing again).

Now there is insipid silliness and there is INSPIRED silliness. I didn't find any inspired silliness the last 2 seasons, but that does not mean that I didn't laugh out loud-- some of the concepts were very funny, just not well executed. And, I don't doubt for a second that is because LD was no longer the story editor, which is where this thread started a few days ago.

So, my response to you is, essentially, that, yes, i do put LD in high regard, but ONLY because of the way I reacted to the episodes under his guidance vs, the way I reacted to the shows post-David,

I have acknowledged that others do not share my view, which doesn't really surprise me-- obviously the lower brow humor worked for some (and frankly, wasn't done all that badly as low brow humor, unlike, say, the way Will & Grace went downhill).

But, FOR ME, and some others (Mike, Peter) the higher ground, observational humor, mixed in with BELIEVABLE (for a sitcom) situations combined to make the show something way better than your ordinary sitcom.

I agree season 7 was a signiicant drop off from the prior 2, but was still very good compared to seasons 8 and 9.

in

No, most sitcoms are stupid and have NO basis in reality.

Show

Funny, of the 3 I mentioned, I like BM the best, and I can tell you why-- WRITING. The characters essentially sat in their chairs for 9 seasons (I think) and made me laugh. No action, not even very much movement, they were essentially just reading a script, but those scripts were so well crafted that I laughed every show. Cerebral comedy does work for me-- which I guess has been the point all along,

"Craig Gordon" wrote in message news:...

You insist on drawing a black and white dichotomy and I'm trying to get you to use your gray matter. Do you get that joke Craig? It's very cerebral :-) Sorry for the sarcasm but you were being just a wee tad patronizing there.

I said myself that I liked "The Boyfriend". It was a breakthrough episode for "Seinfeld". I'll repeat myself one last time: I basically agree with what you're saying except I don't think the break between seasons 7 & 8 was that severe. Actually I think there was a bigger shift between seasons 3 and 4 because season 4 had the first really classic episodes and they really hadn't fully gelled as an acting ensemble in season 3, IMO.

Anyway, now my curiosity's piqued. Is there more to "The Boyfriend" than what meets the eye? I already made it clear that the whole 2nd spitter plot was a takeoff on "JFK".

"steve horan" wrote in message news:[email]...

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say

You also said it was totally ridiculous-- that's what i was responding to. Actually, after going through the episode guide, if there was a "turning point" episode where everything came together, I would point to that episode as the one. That's where the series really started to get extremely clever and smart, beyond the normal :"sitcom" mode.

There is an inside joke to that episode, but I am not gonna repeat it here (I'll catch too much shit if I do), so if u look up some old posts here under "Hernandez" you can find it yourself (if off your server, use Google). Now, try viewing that episode again given that additional knowledge and the writing takes on a whole new meaning and is twice as hilarious! And, not nearly as ridiculous.

"Craig Gordon" wrote in message news:...

Ridiculous in the sense of incredible (and one of the big knocks against later shows was that they weren't grounded in reality), but not really a bad thing. It was ridiculous but very funny.

Ah so! A line of baseball humor that was picked up again in "The Beard". But the humor still works well without knowing that.

"steve horan" wrote in message news:[email]...

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to.

here

Google).

I agree with that, but it is even funnier if you are in on the joke (which you now are) and not really ridiculous, but more a wonderful comment on rumors. Very smart episode when viewed in the proper light!

"Craig Gordon" wrote in message news:...

No, the whole 2nd spitter/"JFK" bit was what I was calling ridiculous. They momentarily stopped being a sitcom and went for sketch comedy. It was funny but ridiculous - everyone knows there can be no magic loogie! (sp?)

So, were there rumors about Evander Hollifield too? :-)

"steve horan" wrote in message news:[email]...

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responding

it

here

(which

I love the "magic loogy" explanation-- that whole parody of the Zagruder film was brilliant! Ridiculous? No way!! Funny? Absolutely! A good example (for me) of inspired silliness vs, insipid silliness.

On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:24:27 GMT, "Craig Gordon" wrote:

I thought it was brilliant. It was also one of two parodies that involved Wayne Knight in both characters - Seinfeld and the original film that was being parodied.

[email] (TheNewsGuy(Mike)) wrote in message news:...

I know! I know! "Jurassic Park"!

Am I right? Although I don't remember now when "Seinfeld" made a reference to "Jurassic Park".

steve horan offered the following:

JFK and Basic Instinct.

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:40:23 +0100, "Jan Buxton" wrote:

 . . .

Yep.

• the second spitter routine and
• the interrogation scene

I agree it was brilliant, but I believe you're missing the point: it was also an example of the type of unrealistic/silly (but funny) humor that was present in later post-David episodes, like the unrealistic/silly (but funny) humor used in "The Chicken Roaster". I believe that was the topic being discussed in recent messages of this thread, starting from when Steve Horan said:

    "Yes, the show did get progressively sillier in seasons 8 & 9 but
    this was the continuation of a trend that began before Larry David
    left."

was

Steve

Well, there's no point in arguing about this-- I never said it wasn't silly at some level, but that it was "inspired silliness" instead of merely insipid, which much of the last two years was. But if you didn't think it was inspired silliness that's your opinion.

In this case, "inspired" can be intrepretted to mean based on (inspired by) real events. I suppose the Chicken Roaster" was "inspired" by Kenny Rogers, but hey, it could have been Tyler Chicken or Joe Schmo Chicken that opened that restaurant-- it's relationship to anything in the real world was tangential at best. To repeat, that episode was "yuciks" and there's not a thing wrong with yucks. Just like there is nothing wrong with Twinkies, but I feel guilty eating them, and I feel guilty getting laughs elicited from me by low brow humor.

Huh? When did I say that? Didn't you read the part about "I agree it was brilliant"?

Perhaps I'm not communicating clearly enough, since you don't seem to understand what Steve and I are saying; it would probably be best for all of us to just let this one go...

"> Perhaps I'm not communicating clearly enough, since you don't seem to

You also said "an example of the type of unrealistic/silly (but funny) humor that was present in later post-David episodes, like the unrealistic/silly (but funny) humor used in "The Chicken Roaster".

in that same missive. My point is that it was a wonderful parody of the Zagruder film and JFK-- CLEARLY grounded in reality! Pehaps you are picking out statements at random from your own writing to make a point, whereas I am responding directly to what you said.

Just because the parody is of a real event doesn't make the PARODY itself realistic! The parody is equally unrealistic whether it's of a real event, a movie, etc.

John Twernbold wrote in message news:...

Thanks! But, just to clarify, I'm not saying that "The Boyfriend" from season 3 was the start of that trend. I'm just using that episode as an early pre-peak era example of them doing unreality based comedy. The "JFK" parody was more like sketch comedy than a sitcom. Everyone seems to love this episode so that flies in the face of the argument that the early episodes were better 'cause they were rooted in reality.

But my main point is that the transition from season 7 to season 8 was far more seamless than some would have you believe. So Craig's comment that they're like two different shows is, IMO, hyperbollocks :-)

"steve horan" wrote in message news:[email]...

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was

Steve

I long ago agreed with you that there was a significant drop off between seasons 6 and 7. HOWEVER, the scripts in season 7, tho not as good as those in the previous 4 seasons, were still grounded in stuff that could happen in life, and not just going for "yucks," The jokes were sillier than in the other seasons, granted, and I imagine that's why David quit the show-- he'd run outta material and he knew it, and he was struggling that last year. BUT, the scripts still were better, and the laughs more genuine, than in seasons 8 and 9, IMHO. And they were still grounded in realty. They were, again in my opinion, like 2 different shows. And not seamless at all, altho season 7 was a significant drop off from 6, the drop from 7 to 8 was HUGE and palpably a different show.

I must be a real addict to this newsgroup cuz I'm still reading this never-ending thread!

"Ken Tremblay" wrote in message news:GFPa9.3518$[email]...

"Craig Gordon" wrote in message news:...

Me two!

Hah, I got the last word.

:-)

"steve horan" wrote in message news:[email]...

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lol (now I did!)

I completely agree with this comparison.

Tod

and

in

Show

"Mike Brown" schreef

• The Voice
• The Contest
• The Outing

Geert

My fave three

• The Pick (perfection)
• The Outing
• The Contest

ps - I can't stand the backwards episode or much of the show from season 7 onwards

"Mike Brown" wrote in message news:m_C89.183955$[email]...