Moments that make me cringe....

As many of you regular visitors to our little newsgroup may know, I am a huge Seinfeld fan. The show has brought me many hours of enjoyment over the years, with literally thousands of gems....some small details that they got just right, some entire episodes of near-perfection that blow me away, even upon repeated viewing (The Marine Biologist). But, being the kind of guy I am, I cannot simply enjoy the good without pointing out the bad. I will leave no nit un-picked. So, I present to you (for your discussion and flaming pleasure), my:

TOP SEVEN SEINFELD MOMENTS WHICH MAKE ME CRINGE

(drum-roll, Anton, please)

(7) Newman imagining Kramer's head on the roasted turkey (The Butter Shave). Cheap visual gag...out of place.

(6) Lack of Leno on Tonight Show (The Trip part 1). I understand Jay was unavailable to shoot that episode....they should have waited until he was available. The "interview" scenes with Wendt and Bernsen are visually very awkward.

(5) Applause when Kramer entered the scene. (Seasons 2 or 3?) Who is he...Fonzie? Glad the producers put a stop to the practice.

(4) Jerry's line, "I felt like Gilooley." (The Understudy) This one really bothered me. They very cleverly set up the episode to parallel the Harding/Kerrigan mess, and it was working quite well. Then Jerry had to hit us over the head with that one line...as though he didn't have faith in the material and thought we wouldn't "get it." It brings to mind the Magic Lugie scene...no one had to directly mention JFK, but we all knew what was being parodied.

(3) Jerry shooting the pirated video in the movie theater (The Little Kicks). Not only was he breaking the law, but as a relatively successful stand-up/actor, he was risking his career. Way out of character.

(2) Kramer and Jerry digging up the dead parrot to retreive the Jerry Lewis cuff-links (The Strongbox). What was this, a left-over Laverne and Shirley script? Maybe Here's Lucy? ("Viv, hand me the shovel.")

(1) The Dealership. No one escapes unscathed from this dog (well, maybe Kramer). Jerry's so insecure, he needs George's help to say no to a car salesman? Elaine (and Puddy) at their absolute worst, in that "We're broken up", "We're not broken up" mode. Pointless. And that brings us to George...at least he looks like George. Written and performed as a total loud-mouthed paranoid idiot, just a cartoony parody. Jason Alexander (and the writers) spent years making George Costanza into one of the most complex, real characters a sitcom has ever known (not to mention funny), and in this one episode, acted as though they had no idea what George was all about. Bring back The Puerto Rican Parade.... ban this turkey.

*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*      Avoid cliches like the
plague.

art vandelay wrote:

Totally agree!

Did not notice this - can't comment.

It did spoil the chemistry of the scene but I was not too bothered by it.

I felt cheated too. Like I GOT IT, if the dumb people didn't get it, maybe they don't know who Gilooley was anyway. Actually the JFK scene was set up earlier when Keith asks Jerry in the car, the wants to go see it. But they could have done without that too. And since it was done before the scene, most people did not think about it (as you have forgotten it too) I remember it because I'm a conspiracy buff. (How do you become a buff?)

Very out of character and the beginning of a downward slide in the nature of the characters.

Seinfeld's humour is based on the use of language - their writing is what got them to the top. Think of Kramer's description of his antics on the bus with the toe in the Cracker Jack box - "they kept ringing the bell" - that was funny and brilliant without showing us a slap stick scene on the bus - which would not have been half again as funny. Same and even worse in the cemetary.

art - I agree with every single one of your observations - Except for Leno, they hit me over the head the first time I saw them - 4 of them come from the last two seasons where the writing was heavy-handed and sometimes too silly for words.

If you want I will post a friend's comments on Seinfeld - She is an English Teacher who sees the underlying matrix for the show based on classical literature as well as comedy. It is a little high brow for Usenet - maybe someday. If you're good.

The argument between Poppie and Kramer over "when it's a pizza." Though obviously Seinfeld's writers wanted to satirize the popular argument over when a fetus starts being a human, they did not manage to come up with a situation or conversation that gives the characters any reason to touch on the issue of when it's a pizza.

ML

Mike,

would really like to read it.

Herbert The News Guy(Mike) schrieb in Nachricht ...

    You make some pretty interesting points.  I do have to disagree
about Jerry filming the bootleg movie being out of character.  He did it
because he was threatened by a guy with a gun.  He didn't want to at
first.  He did continue filming the movies out of pride, but it didn't
start out that way.  I really can't see how that's out of character.
And I know I probably stand alone in this opinion, but I really liked
The Dealership.  It wasn't the same kind of show as the rest of them,
but it was quirky in its own rights.  Lastly, I have to add to the list
the worst moment of the show in my opinion: "I've always loved
Uuuuunited Airlines."  That's gotta hurt!
                                                    Jeremy

Loved reading the starting post, more interesting than most of what I see in this ng. Don't really have time to go into an item-by-item discussion, but I did want to comment on The Dealership. I had mixed feelings about the episode - there were huge holes in the plot and things that made absolutely no sense to me at all. BUT on the upside, I thought the episode was a return to the "show about nothing" style of some of the early episodes, like finding your car at the mall, waiting at the chinese restaurant, riding the subway: I liked the way this whole episode just took place hanging out in the dealership. I absolutely loved that quality of a lot of episodes in the first two seasons, no real plot, just kind of a sitcom version of My Dinner With Andre, just a lot of sitting, standing, walking and talking, in real-life situations. That quality got more and more lost in the latter seasons, as the shows became more and more plot oriented, more sitcommy for my money, three or four separate plots tied together too intricately and cleverly - too "something" and not "nothing" enough. So I did appreciate and like this about this episode when it first aired. The whole subplot about candy bars just completely lost me. Like I said before, mentioned no sense at all.

richforman

I liked "The Dealership." It had some nice elements. For one, it was one of the good times we had outside of Jerry's apartment. We also got to revisit George's utterly pathetic nature. Losing the battle with the vending machine is a classic problem. He was also on the floor for some coins. And the whole conversation with all the different kinds of candy is exactly what Seinfeld's about: nothing! Also, Jerry saving Elaine and Puddy's relationship was a classic Seinfeld role-reversal. He became the salesman and Puddy became the buyer. Remember Elaine and George switching roles? The same thing applies here. And we mustn't forget Kramer and his crazy joyride. Come on...how can you not like the huge Tweety Bird in the back seat???!!! I don't see why The Dealership was so flamed. I liked it. I guess that's all that matters. Besides, hating one of the episodes of Seinfeld is just limiting the series further. :)

[email] wrote in message ...

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I have to say, Kramer's ride with the car dealer was the highlite of that episode. This is the kind of thing that made the whole show special in a way. Little things that are so funny I can't even laugh at them. They seem to only work when they don't try *too* hard to make it funny...

Although I thought that The Dealership had some problems(I for one, didn't
really like the Kramer bit) I find myself enjoying some of the scenes or
using some of the dialogue more and more.
Examples:  I like Elaine and Puddy arguing the first time when Puddy says
"you're the grease monkey" and Elaine replies "David...you're not making
any sense!"
	Also, I can't have a piece of candy anymore without shouting
"(the name of whoever's in the room with me), free candy!"
	Finally, I absolutely love Puddy charging Jerry extra for
everything:
"...keys" -Puddy
"Keys?!" -Jerry
"How're you gonna start it?" -Puddy

I think The Dealership was a lot better than some others that season.

aaron

joltin joe dimaggio a �crit dans le message : [email]...

Except for George's very loud performance (probably the angriest he's ever been) I liked "The dealeship" especially the Elaine/Puddy exchanges. My own favorite moment is when Jerry calls Elaine to beg her to come back to the dealership. When he hangs up with her he goes " Everybody's trying to rip me off!!!

I Also love the big Mechanic that tells George "You're Incorrect!! whe G. swears he saw money in his wallet.

Mo

In article , "Mohamel" wrote:

I agree with TV Guide that this was a George we could believe in: hungry and paranoid. Remember, this is the guy who angrily quit over not being allowed to use his boss's private restroom, then slipped him a mickey. Larry David described George as possessing two of the worst possible character traits (which David himself has), a vicious temper and a total lack of guts. Imagine that aggravated by hunger. Think of how you get when meals are delayed.

Yeah, I agree. I've found it fun to say to people (for no reason), "You're the grease monkey." The fun thing is, they tend to respond with something about maturity, so of course I respond, "No, you are."

And at the vending machines, I tend to purchase Twix's just so I can face the air and yell (in STII style), "TWIX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

Stephen Lee wrote:

Also... Jerry and Kramer have a role reversal in The Chicken Roaster - Jerry when sleeping in Kramer's apartment enters his own apartment like Kramer and rants like Kramer - Kramer responds like Jerry and later becomes 'the center' and gives advice in Monks. And nobody had to say ... I'm becoming Kramer! or You're becoming Jerry.

What is "My Dinner With Andre?" I have never heard of that show.

[email] wrote in article ...

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In article , "JJ" wrote:

That was a favorite movie of mine, from I think the early '80's. It may not be a favorite of too many other people, I don't know. I tend to like what they call "small" movies, and this one may be the ultimate model of that. No plot to speak of, or action of any kind, just two intelligent people, one played by the great Wallace Shawn, one of my favorite movie actors, and I forget who played his somewhat elder mentor-like friend, anyway they're sitting over dinner in a restaurant just talking, in a long series of conversations that encompasses philosophy, metaphysics, science, politics, and everything else. I really like movies that are very dialogue- and character- heavy, (I liked "Thirty-something" too), sometimes the plot and action just bog things down for my money! So in a way this movie might have been a distant relative and ancestor of Seinfeld and the gang sitting at Monk's over-analyzing the days' events! Another good movie along those lines that noone might remember, I think it was called "Mindwalk," this time it was three people, not two, they were all scientists, and they were taking a walk, not sitting in a restaurant, having a long, deep, fascinating conversation that pretty much covered everything in life and the world! One of the actors was - Heard, I think, William Heard, maybe? If anyone else liked "Andre", rent this one sometime if you can find it at the local video store. "Blue In The Face" - I'll bet some people remember that one. Now that's similar, a slice-of-life with lots of crazy characters parading into a Brooklyn cigar store with their schemes, dreams, problems, neoroses, and lives coming out in their dialogue. Great comic turns from Harvey Keitel, Roseanne, Michael J. Fox in a very uncharacteristic role, and others I can't remember offhand. If you've seen that, and liked (I loved it, if I forgot to mention that), or didn't like that, you may be able to use it as a guage as for whether my other recommendations would be any good for you.

richforman

That is what I was thinking, it's not like he went out, got a camera, and by his own decision went to a movie theater to bootleg the movie, he was forced at gun point, yes that in it's self was different, but that was more of a show difference than a character one.

Okay, I'll be the second to come out of the closet, I kind of liked The Dealership myself, it wasn't the greatest episode, doesn't even deserve to appear on a list with such classics as "The Outing" and "The Contest" but in it's own way "the Dealership" was enjoyable.

Lastly, I have to add to the list

I don't recall anything in the finale that didn't hurt, I mean most of that episode was sad, in a pathetic way...

Jeremy Kelley wrote:

Even that was out of character for the show -180 episodes and no guns shown except a dream sequence. The threat was pretty empty - Jerry only saw the gun.

However, we digress, the REAL problem with that episode and all others thereafter was that Jerry ceased to by the kingpin, central stabilizing character, and became a player in the antics that were usually reserved for Kramer, George or Newman. It is a literary change that moved him out of the viewer of the action onto the canvas itself. He was no longer doing the stand-up commentary that explained the show - al a George Burns, Abbott and Costello - he became just another Stooge - that is not how we saw Jerry until then.

It was pretty bad.

Very little in The Finale didn't hurt. That was a bad one too.

BTW, as art v. said he found 7 he did not like - I am sure we all could find hundreds and hundreds we did like.

In article , "The News Guy(Mike)" wrote:

I really don't know. I don't see what was so "out of character" for Jerry. As another poster noted, he only reluctantly went along with filming "Body Blow" when he was freaked out by seeing the gun. Anyway, for me, the point is, that developed on to a hilarious episode with lots of great funny business culminating in the great line - "I'm off the project! I can't work under these conditions."

Not sure about this either. No rule in Seinfeld about Jerry himself being involved in the goings-on; happened all the time from the beginning. In most cases, it was something involving his dating life, but not always. He observed and commented on the lunacy in the other main characters' subplots but also always had nonsense going on himself too. I'd say always! He didn't just function as some kind of greek chorus.

richforman

In article , [email] wrote:

There was "The Limo". I don't know why you consider it an empty threat; if someone with a gun tells me to do something, I'm going to do it. As "The Coma" showed, excessive bravery isn't one of Jerry's strong points.

art vandelay wrote:

Just the first of many signs that the great verbal wit that was Seinfeld's trademark would dissipate in the final season into a cartoonish farce.

Didn't notice, but now that you pointed it out, I'm sure it'll drive me crazy next time I see this episode.

I agree! This drives me crazy when it happens on any show. (And Married With Children did it with practically every single character in every single episode!) A regular character just entered the scene. Big deal. You didn't expect him to?

True... but unfortunately, I think the casual viewer might miss the reference. Still, though, if you're trying to establish yourself as a clever show (which Seinfeld was), you'll just have to take some chances on including things that some people may not get. The first time I saw "The Rye", I couldn't really figure out what that "do everything" stuff was all about, but then on future viewings, when I realized what they were talking about, I thought "That's pretty clever..."

All the characters, with the possible exception of Kramer, had really devolved by the later years. Jerry had turned into a real jerk, Elaine into an obnoxious bitch, and George into a screaming idiot. Maybe it's not so sad these guys went to prison.

Definitely a sign they were straining for ideas.

It's shows like this that exemplify a lot of what was wrong with the last season. "The Dealership" I think could have passed for just another mediocre effort were it not for one thing- George. George's whole debacle in that episode was an embarrassment to his character and an embarrasment to the show. Sadly, it's just the most obvious example of how clueless the writers were about handling him in the last season. Rather than the delightful overanalyzing and angst-filled obsessing he used to do, he was reduced to constantly screaming and instantly flying into a mad rage about every little thing. It ruined "The Dealership", "The Merv Griffin Show", "The Apology", and I'm sure someone can name some others. The rare moments when he was allowed to behave like the George of old, such as his Hamptons deception in "The Wizard", not surprisingly provided his best moments of the season.

art vandelay a �crit dans le message : [email]...

In an otherwise great episode (The Tape) we see Jerry , George and Elaine at Monks getting ready to discuss the "tape" and who might have left the X-rated message on it . All of a sudden Jerry spots this total unknown (to us ) guy in the restaurant and leaves to talk with him, thus giving Elaine a chance to tell George that she was the one on the tape...how convenient!! I always thought that this was very amateurish of Larry David in a "Three's company "kind of way..

Its not much I know but even considering how "controversial" the last two seasons were the editing and dialog was too sharp to have transitions like that..

In " The Dog" we have the unseen Farfel who keeps barking all the time. I didn't like the dog and I hated its owner. What is clever with the Kramer subplot and his unseen girlfriend doesn't work for me with the dog. ..

I'm having a hard time finding more examples of things I dislike and since unlike most of you , I really enjoyed the last 2 seasons it is true that if I get to watch more than three of the newest episodes in a row, George is likely to get on my nerves before too long. They're were many plots and subplots that made little sense but I loved the rhythm and the punchy transitions that the first few seasons lacked.

Mo

Mohamel wrote:

It did strike me as quite contrived, but as funny as the episode was on the whole, I could forgive it.

Not to mention how painfully obvious it is that Farfel's "barking" is actually a human voice. "The Dog" was a rare off-episode in the otherwise terrific season 3.

I enjoyed the last two seasons as well. The eighth was, in my opinion, pretty good in spite of its faults. I actually prefer it to the seventh, which seemed a little tired at times. The ninth admittedly had its problems. Every season had its faults, but they were much more obvious and distracting and hurt the show more in the final season. Several great shows, though, and even the worst ones had great moments within them. I still maintain Seinfeld's first season was its worst. Those episodes did have a certain charm, but completely lacked the rhythm and brilliance of later seasons.

The Frogger

George pushing that video game across the street, that scene is so "Urkel" I almost puke when I see it.

The two barbers.(I'm not sure what this ep is called) All of a sudden Jerry is getting bad haircuts? Since when? Lame premise.

In defence if The Dealership

Puddy talking about "that monkey KoKo" is funny.

Nick

Nick VanAmstel wrote:

My main problem with The Frogger is its total predictability. You know from the get-go that George's score will be wiped from the machine somehow.

Um, it's called "The Barber"

In article ,

Yes, yes. This visual gag was set up so deliberately with such sledgehammer- like subtlety, you could see it coming a mile away - insulting, and terrible. Also a gaping plot hole further ruined that bad episode for me. George can't let the video game lose power or it will erase his high score. So are you telling me that somehow that video game never lost power, never was turned off or reset or unplugged or whatever, in the entire 10 years + time period they kept mentioning, since George had set the record? I just don't buy it.

richforman

In article , Keith Davenport wrote:

I have no idea whether it'd be a majority opinion - probably not - but I felt that by and large the final season (despite some big problems, clunkers and cringeworthy moments) was a big improvement over the faltering two that preceded it - in terms of a return to some inspired insanity and a loose overall feel more recalling the early days (for me, the first three seasons were hundreds times funnier than the last six).

Two examples that stand out in my mind - the whole Merv Griffen show biz. That was original, different from anything that had been done before, and just hilarious, the way Kramer conducted the talk show from his apartment. In fact, that shared an episode with an also hilarious plot-line, with Jerry's drugging his girlfriend in order to play with her toys - not only funny but pretty edgy and almost shockingly un-wholesome, and it's hard to find anything on tv with those qualities in this cynical edge - adding up to at least one total classic grade-a show in Season The Last. Another bit I thought was really funny was Kramer's turning his apartment into a suburban, or even rural, country home and using the section of hallway as his front lawn. This was more of a minor plot, I'm not even sure I remember offhand what else was going on in that episode. For that matter, both phases of his shower-centric-lifestyle, first trying to educate himself in how to shower most efficiently and time- effectively, and later giving in to the pleasure of living, cooking and gardening in the shower, had me busting a gut. Then other times, I tended to get annoyed with the very formulaic "what's- kramer's-eceentric-idea-this week?" format that grew very pronounced and predictable over the last season or two. Now he has a deli-slicer, now he's cleaning a highway, etc., etc. This was one of the worst aspects of the last several seasons, and stands in sharp contrast to the freewheeling, amorphous, structure-less quality of many of the early episodes.

richforman

[email] wrote:

The problem was that not all of the insanity was inspired. There were some great bits that recalled the early days, some great bits that were truly a new direction, and way too many bits that just completely flopped. I did like the form they went to in the final season, but way too often the material itself just didn't live up to it.

I don't see what was so great about the first two seasons. The show was good, but nothing next to 3 and 4, which in my opinion are about as good as sitcoms get.

Which brings me back to my point about how uneven the last season was. For all the great bits you mention, there are a comparable number of bad ideas that shouldn't have seen the light of day. Just to name one: The Dealership- forgetting George's endless screamfest, I want to know one thing: What is the deal with everyone suddenly thinking Twix has coconut and basing a running joke around it? Seinfeld was always masterful at skewering the real foibles common to society; it doesn't work when you invent these foibles and foist them on us. Do people in the real world actually have a problem remembering which candy bars have coconut?

Keith Davenport wrote:

Well put Keith. There were many artificial items like that in the last two years. Think of Jerry's experience in the car rental in The Alternate Side as compared to his experiences in The Dealership. One was realistic, clever, inspired his line "I don't think you do" was so simple and yet so funny. In the Dealership they just floated aimlessly around situations that they used to handle better. Not getting a deal because he did not want to high five... - too much - not the same as not wanting to sleep with a girl who may be using fungicide. Anyway - Seinfeld's humour lives on in reruns and hopefully he will put together another stand-up routine - I'd go.

I found another one of those bad "transitions" that make me cringe!! Its from another early episode "The Stranded"

Right after Jerry, George and Elaine arrive at the party , the three look around the place and start to discuss strategy. George then spots Eva.

She comes over and says " Guess who just sold 129 west 81st" George says: " Oh no you didn't!! Get out!! When?!" She replies :"Yesterday!!" G: ".... aahh I don't believe it" Eva: " Ask Mark." G. " Mark.... Is this true?

You get a long shot and way in the back a guy nods.. Then both George and Eva start to hush .. and walk away... the scene cuts back to Elaine and Jerry where he says: "Yeah ...... this got disaster written all over it."

Watch that scene if you can its terribly bad in (again) an otherwise fine episode. Not to mention the fact that Eva sold Jerrys building and he doesn't even flinch.:-)

Mo

Mohamel wrote:

I think that was totally redeemed in the ending when Jerry and the Cop both role their eyes after Elaine challenges the prostitute with.. "Is that fur?" LOL I loved that ending.

The News Guy(Mike) a �crit dans le message : [email]...

Oh yeah great ending! But don't get me wrong , I like that episode its just that one weird moment. We expect Jerry to respond like that (to rool his eyes) but to have the cop join him is brilliant.

Mo

I'm surprised you didn't mention the series finale... :)

Art: (7) Newman imagining Kramer's head on the roasted turkey (The Butter Shave). Cheap visual gag...out of place.

This is the only mishit I see in your list. This is one of my favorite moments

But then I'm the one who likes puts the Barber on her list of favorite shows. So perhaps my taste is odd.

Cynwater wrote:

I like The Barber too, only perhaps because it was a bold creative attempt at something deeper, in that they paralled the theme of Barber of Seville in the show. They should have handled the Newman ending a little better though.

Cynth,
    Misshit?  :)
                                          Jeremy

Jeremy Kelley skrev i artiklen ...

It's a word!

John