Jewish Elaine

Jamie overlooks the fact that most American Jews, not being snobs send their Christian friends Christmas cards.

In article , [email] (David A. Tharp) wrote:

Just shut up David. You're dead wrong so deal with it.

what a compelling argument. your rhetorical skills are sharp as a bowling ball.

Not necessarily. (I am not saying that he is definitely right either). I know people who send Xmas cards who are not christian. Like me. I am an atheist.

Nothing wrong with saluting your friends and hoping they enjoy their holiday, even if it's not a holiday you observe, but Elaine went to the trouble of having cards printed up and she called them Christmas cards. A Jew who did that would be suffering from a terminal case of assimilation. Anyone at all conscious of being Jewish would print "Holiday" cards or "Season's greetings" cards that would be suitable for non-Christians as well.

->Nothing wrong with saluting your friends and hoping they ->enjoy their holiday, even if it's not a holiday you observe, ->but Elaine went to the trouble of having cards printed up ->and she called them Christmas cards. A Jew who did that ->would be suffering from a terminal case of assimilation. ->Anyone at all conscious of being Jewish would print ->"Holiday" cards or "Season's greetings" cards that would ->be suitable for non-Christians as well.

You are equating being Jewish ethnically with being Jewish religiously. My dictionary defines Jew as 1. a person belonging to a continuation through descent OR (emphasis added) conversion of the ancient Jewish people. It also defines it in an alternate description as "one whose religion is Judaism."

Therefore, if one is said to be descended from the ancient Jewish people, then one is Jewish. Period. Such a person can convert to whatever religion or atheism, whatever -- that person is still Jewish. You cannot change who you descended from.

And if Elaine's character is Jewish, and then denies her RELIGION, (2nd definition of "Jew" above, by stating "I'm not Jewish"), she still cannot deny her BACKGROUND (1st definition of "Jew" above.)

I am NOT saying there is proof that Elaine is Jewish. What I am saying is that her statement of "I'm not Jewish" may have pertained to her current status practicing, not pertaining to her background per se.

And, if she is Jewish by descent, but denies Judaism or ignores it, it is perfectly feasible for her to send Xmas cards, yes, even those that specifically mention Christmas, for she may no longer be a practicing Jew. I am a firm atheist, but I can send a Xmas card to a Chrisitan friend If I want to, and I do. It means more to THEM than a "Holiday" card.

OK here is the gist of my argument: Elaine may (or may not be) Jewish but the show's writers are defintely playing with our heads! The shower and the Donna Chang(stein) episodes represent primi faci evidence of my thesis.

What more do you need beyond Elaine saying "I'm not Jewish"?

	Did you ever take a second to consider that when Jerry
	said to Elaine, "She's like you", what he was saying
	is that she is a caucasian woman, not an Asian woman.
	Just because it is "like" Elaine, doesn't mean it goes
	all the way down to religious affiliation. "Like you"
	just means a white woman to me at least.

How right Dave Velenzuela is. These Seinfeld people care only about their own little lives. Religion is the last thing on their minds. And ethnically, they are Manhattanites. They are a generation past being ethnically Italian or Jewish, though they do have a certain longing for ethnicity... generally somebody else's (like Seinfeld's weakness for Chinese girls, or George's attraction to the African woman).

Some people on here refuse to believe that there are non-Jews in New York...Just like some East Coast Jews are amazed to find Jews alive and well in Nebraska and other such places. This is America, people, not ghettoized Europe. People mix and mingle. Religion does not define most people's lives. Get over it.

In article , [email] (David A. Tharp) writes:

can you elaborate on your primi face of evidence...??

Just Me, Lisa

 [email]
* * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Get the honey!"

                 ------------------------- "Fatso"

You know, I was thinking, though I know nothing about the program, but enough reading of this newsgroup leads me to say that the show's writer's are allowed to play with your heads because you allow them to but as to the name, a possibility exists that is could be half Oriental and half German. I say that because 'stein' in German translates into little rock or little stone. Note, I did not say that it was absolutely written in stone (pardon the pun), but that the possibility exits that it could be.

Mary

On 4 Nov 1996, David A. Tharp wrote:

Can we please get over this Jewish conversation and just enjoy a good TV show? I can't believe how ridiculous this whole thread has gotten! If the producers want to play with our heads, let them!! But for God's sake, please quit bitching and sniping at each other, calling each other racists and anti-semites and the like. I am purposefully NOT mentioning my religions affiliation out of this, because it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER!!! GROW UP and realize there are all types of people everywhere you go, and if you can't deal with it, you sorely need to be educated in the ways of the world!!!

Newsie wrote:

Hey pal, if you can't talk about something as banal as whether or not a sitcom character is a Jew or not on Usenet, then where can you talk about it? g

The thread mat be tiresome to some but it is based on a number of planted clues. As such it is fair game for all us bug-eyed Seinfeld fans. The show can be viewed on a number of levels and there is nothing wrong with savoring every nuance. ###### 1

Yeah, but to nit-pick it to death? I don't think so!

Mary

On 7 Nov 1996, David A. Tharp wrote:

[email] writes:

David A. Tharp wrote:

Yeah, but to nit-pick it to death? I don't think so!

Why did she refuse to eat the pie ?

In Elaine's case, there is no ambiguity. She is *not* Jewish. n

	1.  In the Rabbi episode, she explicitly stated that she's
             not Jewish.

	2.  Ditto for the recent epidsode with Kramer running the
             Jewish Singles group.

	3.  She crossed herself before entering J's apartment while it
              was being fumigated.

Case closed.

There has been what may or may not be a new developement in the is Elaine Jewish? hoo-ha. Ironicaly it's contained in a rerun. The "Talkitive Rabi" episode was rerun recently & boys & girls they delated the piece of Elaine's dialouge in which she says she isn't of his faith. The mind boggles at the implication!!! PS. Has anyone ever nailed down the exact nature of that all femail get together where Elaine is surrounded by quite obvoiusly Jewish Women?

The only hoo-ha is within the walls of your diseased head.

"Quite obviously Jewish women"? You are a fool, Tharp. However, reading your crap does make me laugh, and that is a good thing,

[email] (David A. Tharp) wrote:

i wasn't able to catch this episode when it was on originally, so i never heard that line. what i did hear in the syndicated rerun last night was jerry say to elaine, "let me tell you something about jewish people..." sounds to me like jerry thinks she isn't jewish, and needs to explain the culture to her.

the problem with this whole thread is that some people just can't get an idea out of their head once they've adopted it. ever.

cheers.

[email] (john wildermuth) wrote:

nahhh, Jewish people are always saying that to each other

g

Do jewish people cross themselves often as well?

If they converted to Catholicism, sure.

Oh, Dina, don't forget that this putz thinks that Judaism is a racial identity. Consequently, according to his misinformed view of the world, being both Catholic and Jewish is a perfectly plausible possibility. Tell him to shag off and put him in your killfile. That's my plan.

David

I'm Catholic and Jewish (or in reverse order, makes no difference to me). Any questions? The possibility exists with living proof right here.

The lack of roots is the basis of all evil.

Mary McCool

On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, djk wrote:

In article , [email] says...

THANK YOU! There do exist people w/ thinking minds in Usenet groups.

Maybe there are, but neither you or Mary qualify.

On Sat, 9 Nov 1996 22:26:06 -0700, [email] wrote:

if you are both catholic AND jewish, in truth you are neither. Ask your priest and/or rabi to explain that one honey.

** For what it's worth, a case like that went to court here in
   Israel in the 1960s.  A fellow who was born a Jew but became
   a Carmelite monk wanted to be recognized as legally Jewish.  (I know
   that in the USA your religion is not part of your legal statistics,
   but over here it is; that's a whole nother story.)  The outcome
   was a precedent that as far as the State of Israel is concerned,
   a person stops being a Jew when he converts to another religion.

   I asked a priest in the USA, by the way, and the priest said that
   he thought the church, for its part, had no problem with a
   monk calling himself Jewish...

Mark L.

   PS - I think that my fellow Jews and I are comfortable with the
        idea that Elaine is not Jewish.  I think it's the non-Jews
        who for some reason want her to be.

[email] wrote:

No, you're not.

That would be great David. Then I wouldn't have to read your posts or mail responses that refuse to acknowledge standard English definitions.

And Dina, use a current dictionary and look up "Jew" and "race." Therein, you will find concrete support for the concept of "Jew" as ALSO referring to an ethnic/racial group. Look up "ethnicity" as well. I simply make a very clear point VIA Webster. And if you still do not see the point, then the putz is not me, but you and/or Webster.

If they were descended from the Jews as an ethnic group, yes they are. You are equating being Jewish as a description of one's religion with being Jewish as a description of one's state of being descended from Jewish people. There are (at least) two aspects of being Jewish, ethnically and religiously.

According to your logic, if you are, for example, Hispanic (and not Jewish in any sense of the word), and then you make Judaism your religion, then you are no longer Hispanic.

I have no compunction in saying that you are so f***ed up it isn't even funny anymore. Only if you are a Nazi applying the Nuremburg laws of 1935 would you say to a person who says "My parents are Jewish but I am not" "Oh yes you are." Your dictionary definitions mean shit to me, and your logic is hilarious. Crawl back in your cave, OK?

Well, then, you should have said the above right away. That would have saved a lot of time. If you choose, as is within your right, to ignore or reject dictionary definitions, which are not "mine" but those of lexicon scholars, whose definitions are considered to be the standard accepted by society as a whole, though apparently not by all individual members of the society, the so be it. If we are ranting and raving about something we are not going to agree about then now at least we know why we will not agree. And then we can stop.

Next time why don't you reprint my whole post. Or was the rest of it too difficult to respond to, Himmler?

saved

scholars,

a

so

agree

stop.

The rest of the post was irrelevant. My whole point of the above is that if we cannot agree that the dictionary holds the standard by which language is determined, then we are guaranteed to disagree; no valid syllogism can remedy two arguments that don't agree on a major premise.

Listen up people: ELAINE IS _NOT_ A REAL PERSON. SHE IS WHATEVER THE WRITERS WANT HER TO BE!!! She could be a figment of a Walter Mitty type Kramer's imagination in an 'it was all a dream' series finale.

k?

[email] (David A. Tharp) wrote:

Are you talking about the one where Jerry gets the cigar store indian for elaine and totally insults the object of his desire, an american indian. g

Nit pick to death? I think not! I do beleive that with malice (or a perverse sense of humor) the writers are planting Plausable Denial clues as to elaine's religion. But that's IMOHO.

The lack of roots is the basis of all evil. Mary McCool

Mary

On 9 Nov 1996, David A. Tharp wrote:

Lenny Bruce, the brilliant New York Jewish comedian, insightfully declared that "in NY everyone becomes a Jew." Elaine is not Jewish by birth, she's Jewish by virtue of her environment. I should know, I'm a Catholic who has lived in NYC for 15 years. I travel around the country on business almost every week and everywhere I go people assume I'm Jewish. I'm also always being told by these non-NYers that I remind them of Elaine.

Non-Jewish New Yorkers are very "Jewish holiday aware" (alternate side of the street parking regulations are suspended and the traffic is very low, for example), Yiddish is the slang of the city, many of us have been to a bris and may even know a moyle (sp?) or two. We've also been know to attend affairs at Jewish social clubs.

Elaine is not Jewish, she's a classic New Yorker! And the longer she lives in NY, the more Jewish she becomes; hence, as the show has progressed, Elaine seems more Jewish.

Valerie - Not Eric Miller