Debate over whether Susan is a good character on Seinfeld, with some arguing she lacks humor and doesn't fit the show while others defend her as well-developed despite being unfunny.
The post here asks me to name some good points about Susan, and I might, but let me ask this of the anti-Susan faction: name some good points about the other four characters, besides the fact that they might be funnier?
(I am expecting about forty posts that say: but its a comedy show and being funny is all that counts. Thats about as articulate and indepth as I would expect from kindergartners.)
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In [email] (JCS21212) writes:
That's what makes it a comedy show.
You can have sitcoms with nothing but Susan-like well-developed characters but no laughs. I'll take Susan-less Seinfeld any day.
Susan may be a good character, but she's out of place. She doesn't deserve to be on Seinfeld.
Ding ding ding! I don't need any "besides that". I ONLY watch that show to laugh. If the characters and situations make me laugh, then THAT'S ALL I NEED! I'm not looking for idols here.
Don't insult people. I haven't insulted you, unless you feel insulted by the fact that I don't share your views.
Anyway, as long as you've already done it, may I ask what exactly is so childish about watching a sitcom because it's funny? You say it's a kindergartner's argument, but why? And I'll ask you again because I'm really wondering, "Why do YOU watch the show??"
By the way, you seem to be editing out some of the contents of my posts. I usually leave yours intact. I'm starting to think that you're ignoring my tougher questions. (If I'm wrong here, I apologize.)
Paul
<Don't insult people. I haven't insulted you, unless you feel insulted by the fact that I don't share your views.
Anyway, as long as you've already done it, may I ask what exactly is so childish about watching a sitcom because it's funny? You say it's a kindergartner's argument, but why? And I'll ask you again because I'm really wondering, "Why do YOU watch the show??"
By the way, you seem to be editing out some of the contents of my posts. I usually leave yours intact. I'm starting to think that you're ignoring my tougher questions. (If I'm wrong here, I apologize.)
Paul>
When you split your replies up, I cannot quote but one section of them without extraordinary effort. It is not intended to be insulting. I watch the show to see Susan and because even without Susan, Seinfeld is about the third funniest show on television. It is okay to be funny and it is ok to like the show because it is funny. But, it is very limited of you to say Susan is worse than all the other characters because she isn't as funny as them. Furthermore, my question was for you name good points about the other four characters that make them so superior to Susan. It is very inarticulate to simply list as a good point that they are funny, since anyone moron can say that. That was my point not that people who watch the show because it is funny are kindergarteners. Rather, that is probably the reason that 90 percent of people watch it. I was hoping that you could list good points beside that, since I don't really consider being funny that important when judging character value. Incidentally, if I did, Jerry would win hands down with George and Kramer tying for second.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article , [email] (JCS21212) writes:
whops
It's a sit-com. Funny is the one and only thing that matters to me when I watch that show. I'm not looking for morals, messages or philosophies. I just want to laugh. Susan doesn't make me laugh very much. The other character make me laugh a lot. This is the last time I'll explain this simple point.
The other characters are funny; Susan is not. You may think that's a moronic statement (low insults again). I think it's obvious to most people who watch the show. For me to explain why they are funny and Susan is not would be a futile exercise, since it's abundantly obvious to everyone but you, and I'm not going to change your mind anyway.
Then why are you watching Seinfeld? This is the big question I don't get about you. Are you looking for admirable characters? I should think that you could hardly do worse than Seinfeld. The characters are pretty much uniformly obnoxious in one way or another. Humor is their only redeeming quality. So if you don't watch it for the humor why on earth do you watch it?
Paul
I pretty much think all four characters are about equally funny. My opinion is unbiased by consideration for their ethics.
Paul
The purpose of Susan is not to be implicitly hilarious -- the show already has characters for that. The value of Susan is found in the situations she puts George into. A personal favorite is making him watch Mad About You instead of the ball game (perhaps because my wife has done the same thing to me in the past). Susan HAS to be "straight"; if she was as strange as the others, there would be no conflict for George... his worlds would not collide, they would merge. I don't like her, either, but I love the dilemma she creates for George.
Tom
<Then why are you watching Seinfeld? This is the big question I don't get about you. Are you looking for admirable characters? I should think that you could hardly do worse than Seinfeld. The characters are pretty much uniformly obnoxious in one way or another. Humor is their only redeeming quality. So if you don't watch it for the humor why on earth do you watch it?>
I watch it mostly because of Susan and partly because of the humor. I like the humor and I think the show is funny. But, two shows equal and surpass Seinfeld in humor and I think that Seinfeld is a great show (in fact the greatest show) because of Susan. I like Seinfeld and probably would have continued to watch it if they had not brought Susan but now, if they drop her, I won't watch anymore.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
<It's a sit-com. Funny is the one and only thing that matters to me when I watch that show. I'm not looking for morals, messages or philosophies. I just want to laugh. Susan doesn't make me laugh very much. The other character make me laugh a lot. This is the last time I'll explain this simple point.>
I'm no imbecile and I understood you the first time. I am choosing to ignore this point because it simplifies the arguments. When measuring the success of a television show, one cannot go by humor alone and the same applies to characters. People not only have to laugh at the show but care about the characters. My point has always been that although certain characters may be funny, one may not care about what happens to them. Shows that are nothing but humor fail miserably. Plot is important and so is personality. It is these two things in combination with humor that make or break characters. Judging characters based on how funny they are alone is like eating only the crust of a pie.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article <next job for Susan:holding shirts together for cleaners>, [email] (JCS21212) writes:
Actually, you're the only one(apparently) who doesn't measure the
success of a comedy show on the basis of it's humor content.
Although I realize that this feeds conveniently into your "All great
minds had to stand alone against the masses" niche, that only works when
you have a valid argument to offer.
The indisputable facts are(although, I have no doubt it will be
disputed),you have elected to hitch your wagon to a cardboard cut-out of a
character.
While I hold no opinion, one way or the other concerning the
actress,I feel Ms. Swedberg should consider herself most fortunate to have
been at the right part at the right time.It could have been any of the
women that have paraded through the show over the years, and the quality
of the show would have been unchanged.For all we know, they might have
chosen someone who was actually funny, and the "Big 4" might have become
five...HF
"I'm on a road...uhh...looks to be asphalt...umm...ah, geez. trees,shrubs,ah...I'm directly under the Earth's sun...mmm...now!" -Chief Wiggum
< Actually, you're the only one(apparently) who doesn't measure the
success of a comedy show on the basis of it's humor content.
Although I realize that this feeds conveniently into your "All great
minds had to stand alone against the masses" niche, that only works when
you have a valid argument to offer.
The indisputable facts are(although, I have no doubt it will be
disputed),you have elected to hitch your wagon to a cardboard cut-out of a
character.
While I hold no opinion, one way or the other concerning the
actress,I feel Ms. Swedberg should consider herself most fortunate to have
been at the right part at the right time.It could have been any of the
women that have paraded through the show over the years, and the quality
of the show would have been unchanged.For all we know, they might have
chosen someone who was actually funny, and the "Big 4" might have become
five...>The first thing I will say is that I am sure the reason you don't Susan funny has more to do with the writing than with the acting. Jerry and Kramer are probably the only naturally funny people (ie could be funny without the writing) and the rest of the characters are actors who act as though they're funny based on what is written. Secondly, Susan is far more than a cardboard cut character and I won't bother to restate that position here. Thirdly, I won't bother to make another long post about why comedy is not the only criteria for judging television shows (even comedy sitcoms). Suffice it to say, character likability, plots, and acting have a considerable amount to do with a show's longevity. A show based only on humor (ie Police Sqad) consists only of random humor, paper thin plots and they don't survive long. I have a much better post on this somewhere else. You ought to read it.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article , [email] (Paul Wadehra) writes:
GOOD CALL, THERE MIGHT BE SOME PEOPLE IN THIS NEWGROUP THAT AREN'T INSANE AFTERALL.
In article , [email] (JCS21212) writes:
They all have good points, but the fact is that they're funny. They're just characters, and they are supposed to be like that. Why the debate?
In article ,
Ah, so at least you admit that kindergartners can out-debate you.
How about this: Poppy is the best character on the show; Poppy is the only reason I watch the show. He's a good person, and entrepeneur, a good friend, and he stands up for what he believes in. All of you who don't think Poppy is the best character on the show are kindergartners! oooh, isn't this fun...
<Ah, so at least you admit that kindergartners can out-debate you.
How about this: Poppy is the best character on the show; Poppy is the only reason I watch the show. He's a good person, and entrepeneur, a good friend, and he stands up for what he believes in. All of you who don't think Poppy is the best character on the show are kindergartners! oooh, isn't this fun...>
I am glad you made this post, since it reminded me of another bad point about Elaine: She's is totally intolerant. The episode with Poppy and vaguely about abortion proved this. But on what you say. I was merely attempting to say that if the only good quality you can think of for the other characters is that they are funny, then you are not really trying. It was a mistake to post that, since too many people can't read and took it out of context. I will also say that Poppy does not compare to Susan, since Poppy has only been in three shows for a significant period and had a cameo in one other one. Susan has been in about fifteen.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article , [email] (P.C. Kilinskas) writes:
out-debate you.
kindergartners!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(Laughing Out Loud)
<I myself don't DISLIKE Susan. What I find interesting is that she's your FAVORITE character on a comedy show when she's not particularly funny. Since I watch that show to laugh, and Susan provides very few laughs (or really anything else of interest), to me she is just a character who exists to initiate plot points that the other characters then develop.
Paul>
I find it hard to believe that lack of any bad points is not a good point. Does not lack of any crimes equate to a "good" record? I think that lack of any good point is the best point of all. Susan provides much more to the show than you give her credit for and I find it hard to believe that a character who provides "nothing of interest" would continue to exist on the top rated show in the American Republic. I had a lot of posts a long time ago that stated many good points about Susan and if you didn't read it then, you should be able to read it now. I am criticized for saying too much then asked to say more.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
A ringing endorsment. "I know the woman I want to marry -- someone who isn't evil! That's my Ms. Right!"
Excuse me? Did you mean bad points again?
Sigh. The reason she continues to exist on the show (for about the sixth time), is because she helps to create the situations that the characters find themselves in, which THEY then make funny. She's not on there for her personality, looks, habits, or charm.
1. I already told you I responded to some posts of yours over Christmas. If you didn't read it then, you should be able to read it now.
2. I am not critcizing you; I am debating your point of view. Don't take it personally. It's not worth you getting your feelings hurt. I don't even know you. I think the topic in which we have engaged this lively debate is somewhat interesting. If that changes, or if you start feeling badly, then we can simply let the discussion end now.
Paul
<1. I already told you I responded to some posts of yours over Christmas. I<f you didn't read it then, you should be able to read it now.
<2. I am not critcizing you; I am debating your point of view. Don't <take it personally. It's not worth you getting your feelings hurt. <I don't even know you. I think the topic in which we have engaged this <lively debate is somewhat interesting. If that changes, or if you <start feeling badly, then we can simply let the discussion end now.
<Paul
I don't offense at much and certainly haven't to anything you've said. In fact, unlike my opponents, I am very tolerant (in my own eyes, I guess). The posts I refer to were a long time ago when I initiated the Susan v. Elaine discussion and you should have read them then. But I will now list an abridged list of all of Susan's good points:
1. She dresses well 2. She is polite 3. She is authoritian (as in not meek) 4. She is incredibly tolerant 5. She speaks well 6. She is incredibly attractive 7. She doesn't talk during movies and doesn't like people to talk during movies 8. She doesn't like the New York Yankees 9. She is sensitive
That will do for now, I'm sure there are more and if needed I can probably list them.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
<Everyone has bad points in real life. We just don't know what Susan's <are.......yet.
I don't think she has any and until proven wrong, will continue to believe this. Assuming she does have any before you know it to be fact is incredibly unfair to the character.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
Why does anyone have to be "fair" to a fictional character? Are you worried about hurting her feelings? She's not real, JCS.
And I think it's fair to assume that, on a show that derives humor from the quirkiness of its characters, any character who has not yet shown her bad points has only escaped unscathed because she is not there for her humor.
Paul
<Why does anyone have to be "fair" to a fictional character? Are you worried about hurting her feelings? She's not real, JCS.
And I think it's fair to assume that, on a show that derives humor from the quirkiness of its characters, any character who has not yet shown her bad points has only escaped unscathed because she is not there for her humor.>
Gee, its great to have trained professionals available online, to bring me back to reality and destroy my rampant hallucinations.
You can always dismiss a debate by saying either: thats not important or what can we do anyway. Its perfectly viable to say that since we are debating fictional characters, why apply any standards that partake to realism to them? Heck, why debate it all? All of this valid and you could do that (as, of course, you are trying to do) but it doesn't really make for any interesting discussions. Incidentally, I agree with you on your last paragraph, Susan obviously doesn't carry the show with her unparelled comedy, but that doesn't make her totally unimportant, either.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
In article <at least he likes Homer>, [email] (JCS21212) writes:
Sarcasm and self-deprecation are only useful tools when their not true...
Susan will be dropped for the same reason that the cabin is no longer in the show.They are both inanimate objects that existed only to precipitate a punch line.Once the joke is delivered they serve no further purpose.
HF
"I'm on a road...uhh...looks to be asphalt...umm...ah, geez. trees,shrubs,ah...I'm directly under the Earth's sun...mmm...now!" -Chief Wiggum
< Sarcasm and self-deprecation are only useful tools when their not true...
Susan will be dropped for the same reason that the cabin is no longer in the show.They are both inanimate objects that existed only to precipitate a punch line.Once the joke is delivered they serve no further purpose.>
I think that I have a couple of episodes on tape where Susan does move. I was being totally sarcastic when I made that remark but I am curious to know how you have come to the conclusion that I wasn't (besides that remark of course).
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
<"Hey I make the calls around here, take em away toys." -Chief Piggum
Its Chief Wiggum by the way and the quote is much funnier. Its actually:
Bake 'em away toys.
"You've tried the best, now try the rest." Dr. Nick
He wouldn't like E.R. or Dr. Quinn. Susan is not on either of those shows.
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