hmmm.. Don't most Americans think that the temperature drops 40 degrees as soon as you cross the Canadian border? :) hmmm... Opps sorry gotta go, the entrance to my igloo is cloging up with snow. :).
NBC "Seinfeld" ridicules Japanese men, Thurs, Nov 7.
S08E07 The ChecksliveNov 12, 19965 days later46 posts by 33 posters
🌀 Off topic
Fans discuss whether the show's portrayal of Japanese people is offensive or just comedic exaggeration, debating whether Americans actually hold such stereotypes.
46 posts
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Yes.
--Ara
Heheh. American are really dumb when it comes to Canada. :)
I once angered four American tourists greatly when I told them there are actually parts of Canada that are farther south than parts of the US - and this isn't including Alaska. They just shook their heads and muttered "liar" under their breaths. Obviously they weren't from any states bordering Canada.
One enterprising journalist went down to parts of mid-west and south and asked where British Columbia was. 5 out of 6 said things like "Isn't that somewhere in South America?" or "Yeah...that's some colony by the Canary Islands". :)
This was a joke.
:
And this is just the same kind of stupid comment that leads people to a long, drawn-out torrent of arguments as to whether or not all Americans truly believe Canadians live in igloos and eat polar bear meat. You can bet Jesse Helms and his detractors are just going to bleed into this like silly.
This is essentially how the Seinfeld thing got started, give or take a word. "All Japanese sleep in drawers". "All Malays are Racists!" etc.
But, I hope you ment it in good humor. :)
--Ara
Dai-Fan Comics wrote:
Of course, not all Americans believe Canadians believe in igloos...BUT, a lot of them do. :)
I once mail-ordered a tennis racquet in 1985 from a New York sports store (Ah, the Prince Graphite - what a beauty it was for its time). Anyhow, the lady on the phone had the nerve to ask if we had paved streets and a mail system here in Canada. And she wasn't joking! She was serious...all in good concern of course, because she didn't want to risk sending the package to a place where it might be delivered such as COLD and FORLORN and as BACKWARD LITTLE TOWN as VANCOUVER, BC (it only has 3.5 million people). :)
ummm...but actually, the All Japanes sleep in drawers thing came from the fact that (i don't know if this is true) the sleeping conditions in Japanese business hotels are not much better than sleeping in a chest of drawers. i don't know if that's true but i doubt they were trying to imply that all japanese sleep in drawers.
-Nowhere
I gotta say, I've been a bit bemused by this whole Seinfeld/Japanese episode argument. Obviously you all are in need of guidance. Here it is:
1 - Not all portrayals of ethnic types are inherently racist (cultures
do differ from one another, to point this out in amusing ways is
not the same as attacking them)
2 - However, just because it is possible to poke fun at ethnic types, this
does not mean that all ethnic/cultural humor is ok (in an ethical sense)
After all, we don't want to see a return to hurtful stereotypes like
the greedy Jew or the watermellon eating, dancing black man.
3 - So the question should not be whether or not ethnic humor is ok
(sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't), the question is whether THIS
particular episode crossed the line.That said, I think it did. I see the other point of view, but I think the drawer scene was a tad too much. If they'd just gone to sleep in the drawers I think it would have worked, but the bobbing, stereotyped good nights to Kramer pushed the envelope. Not horribly, but enough. I might be being overly sensitive, but in a world with too much racism, an awareness of how images can reinforce stereotypes is not a bad thing.
But I do think it is a rather close call (especially with the strong portrayal of the Japanese tv executive). So, now you can rest easy, I have solved the problem.
Thanks what would we do without you.
wrote:
Wish it was that easy.
Bob D. "Words are loaded pistols"
I really had to laugh at that. I remember stories from years ago about American tourists bringing ski doos and skis up here in July. I think most American are more aware of the similarities in climate now, though. At least I hope so.
Cyndie
On 12 Nov 1996 19:57:59 GMT, [email] (Alex Sorokopud) wrote:
In article , [email] (Miller) wrote: ]Are you kidding me? It's a tv show, not a documentary! Do you really ]think American's believe that all Japanese people do is bow and eat ]oranges?
Depends on how ignorant or internationalised the group of Americans in questions are.
I haven't seen the episode, but this brief description suggests that maybe this idea was inspired by the world-famous capsule hotels found in Tokyo? Those "rooms" are hardly more than "drawers", especially when compared to American hotel rooms. Didn't realize that even they had become sacred racial cows.
On the other hand, it's encouraging to see that so many of you out there are so totally convinced that there is something like a "universal sense of humor" that all TV shows ought to aim at. Perhaps American TV should model itself after those paragons of ethnoperipheralism manifest in Japanese and Chinese TV sitcoms, the former almost always offensive in their portrayal of gaijin, and the latter, based on the few I've seen recently, unoffensive because of the almost total absence of gaijin faces on the boob tube screen.
just a reminder.
the following descriptions of Japanese (and Chinese) TV programs are totally incorrect.
this guy probably knows only 10 phrases of Japanese.
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Tomoyuki Tanaka ([email]) wrote: :
:
Because Seinfeld has* ridiculed other people... e.g. the Soup Nazi episode (uptight Iranian/Iraqi-- can you* tell the difference in NYC?), and Elaine's former 'dramatic' boss (uptight WASP)... among others. George's now-dead wed-to-be (uptight general woman), etc.
Seinfeld is an equal opportunity offender.
Seinfeld is NOT an equal opportunity offender.
i think Saturday Night Live (also NBC) is closer to an equal opportunity offender.
On Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:46:39 -0800, The Generalissimo wrote:
This has to be the funniest thread on the Net at this time . Starting with the show's theme of stories about *nothing*, this complaint fits the bill for a show. The weirdest characters are the main players and the Seinfield shows ridicule everyone *especially* themselves. Maybe that's why the show is and has been #1 for a long time. There are, thankfully, lottsa people left in the world that can laugh at themselves and others without any racist/bigotted subtle meaning attached. The material is just ...F-U-N-N-Y...nothing else! Enjoy! Chuck---
The Mac Gangsta:
In article , The Generalissimo wrote:
I have *no* doubt.
Of course, *you* wouldn't see that. Even Alice Walker and some of her best Black women friends said that they did not like the *Jewish* Stephen Speilberg treatment of the book.
(The Jewish Speilberg--a *major* Hollywood filmmaker--said that he did not even know there were so many Black actors in Hollywood until he casted for that film. What does this say about white/Jewish Hollywood sensitivity toward Blacks and Black actors? But Speilberg had the nerve to come up here to the Bay Area to lecture Black h.s. students on being sensitive to Jews!)
Oh yeah! Y'all white folks love the Huxtables!--they're so funny and harmless, and apolitical, aren't they?--unless more than one or two Huxtable families move into your neighborhoods! You whites barely tolerate the *Asians* in your neighborhoods--and start to move out if even educated, professional, upper-class Asians move in.
<snips>
Oh I *do* see your point!
You mean when he was trying to save "Bumpy's" little girl in the Harlem ghetto? Or did he get to save the world from some diabolical *white* genius villain in a non-blaxploitation budget film?--and *kill* the whitey villain in the end.
Oh yeah, how suave and sophisticated. (At least Mr.T never had any racial illusions like you do: he openly admitted that he was "just a high-payed slave" on the Hollywood plantation!)
My how apt we are to see the world thru white-'colored' glasses!
I guess you missed my comment about Bruce Lee and Carradine's "Kung Fu", or do you drink and post? [Why do I bother with these white idiots!?]
In article , The Mac Gangsta wrote:
[among other things]
Are you some sort of a joke, or a troll? Perhaps if you were better able to deal with the racism you express so vehemently, someone would listen when you point it out in others.
You got to go easy on mac. He's a hindu that thinks he's black. You should have heard him talking about how "his people" and relations were slaves in the south prior to the civil war. Turns out that his "people" might have been oppressed, but it was the british, in the 1800's over in the area of the indian penninsula.
Homer Simpson: Hey apu, who needs the quickie mart? Apu: I need the quickie mart.
On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, The Generalissimo wrote:
Maybe people should go easy on you, Generalissimo. Although I agree that some of Mac's claims were pretty clueless and highly over-generalizing, you should realize that the Asian Indians were highly discriminated here in the US. As early as the late 1800's, immigration and anti-miscegenation restrictions oppressed and affected Asian Indians, not to mention all Asian nationalities. Groups such as the Indians and other Asians were used for farm labor and paid generally next to nothing. So, Asian Indian oppression was not just limited to "the 1800's over in the area of the [I]ndian penninsula(sp)." Also, I would be careful in calling anyone you don't know "Hindu" since not everyone from India practices Hinduism.
Darius thew Aryan wrote: Now for your fithy fagg jew god Is something
Uh, why don't you go back to india and wash your face in the gutter boy? If the hindus are so superior, why are you in the US trying to get an education? Hey apu, head on back to the sewer peninsula. If hindu's are so superior, why do they spell piece, "peice"? The funny thing is when in chemistry classes, the professors would not allow any experiments performed that came from the Indian Journal of Chemistry. They called it the journal of irreproduceable chemistry because you hindu fucks just buy your degrees over there. The worst chemists I have ever met are you hindu's because you don't know shit. Are you a one dot head, or a two dot head?
:
:
I was going to SAY...
Why do I feel, from reading this, like I'm in a really badly written, racist, episode of sliders where African-Americans are replaced with Japanese Americans?
Seems like I'm not the only one.
--Ara
In article ,
Well, why did she give him the rights in the first place? Many
black production companies would have done anything for such an
opportunity. It seems Ms. Walker wants it both ways -- she goes
for the big bucks than dumps on the people who gave her the
chance to make them. Smart move, Alice. Guess that's why Hollywood
hasn't come knocking on your door since. Personally,
I thought the movie was one of the finest ever made. And just
who exactly does Ms. Walker think could have done a better job --
Melvin Van Peeples? What's this "The Jewish Speilberg" shit? God, you're a foaming
mouth anti-Semite. Suppose we all decided to call you "The
Pakistani" Mac Gangsta?You go on about Zionism. You go on about how Jews are racist; then whenever a subject comes up -- no matter what topic -- you always manage to find a Jew in it to attack. I mean, what exactly are we supposed to think when you say something like "The Jewish Speilberg? Would you have us hate and distrust him because he's Jewish? Or is it you are privy to evil Jewish things he's done we aren't?
Really, what is this "The Jewish Speilberg" shit supposed to
mean and how does it differ from putting a man down because
he's black, Asian, or Pakistani, like you, Mahatma Gangsta?BARD
Spielburg did do a good job, if you read the book, you saw the formatt Alice Walker wrote it is was nothing but letter formatt. Spielburg turned this into a powerful movie, I liked it. We don't know what Alice Walker's complaints were against Spielburg, we only have the mac Gansta word, but Anne Rice, the writer of Interview With Vampire, was angry when they gave the role of Lesat to Cruise, because hse said her Vampire was tall, blond haired and blue eyed, and the guy who wrote Rising Sun complained because they gave the role to Wesley Snipes, the writer said he didn't have a black guy in point. My point? The studios have to make the movie into something that will sell, and they have to get the best actors for the parts, so of cousre there will be changes. All three of the writers I mentioned should have thought of this before they sold the rights to their books, for all we know, if Alice Walker had sold her rights to a black production company, she still would have been angry, let's face it, thye always change the script when things are adapted for screen.
What it means is that this 'Mac Gansta' isn't worth your time. Either hes trolling or he is just plain stupid. Small loss either way.
Reposting article removed by rogue canceller. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce for further information.
The Mac Gangsta:
In article , The Generalissimo wrote:
I have *no* doubt.
Of course, *you* wouldn't see that. Even Alice Walker and some of her best Black women friends said that they did not like the *Jewish* Stephen Speilberg treatment of the book.
(The Jewish Speilberg--a *major* Hollywood filmmaker--said that he did not even know there were so many Black actors in Hollywood until he casted for that film. What does this say about white/Jewish Hollywood sensitivity toward Blacks and Black actors? But Speilberg had the nerve to come up here to the Bay Area to lecture Black h.s. students on being sensitive to Jews!)
Oh yeah! Y'all white folks love the Huxtables!--they're so funny and harmless, and apolitical, aren't they?--unless more than one or two Huxtable families move into your neighborhoods! You whites barely tolerate the *Asians* in your neighborhoods--and start to move out if even educated, professional, upper-class Asians move in.
<snips>
Oh I *do* see your point!
You mean when he was trying to save "Bumpy's" little girl in the Harlem ghetto? Or did he get to save the world from some diabolical *white* genius villain in a non-blaxploitation budget film?--and *kill* the whitey villain in the end.
Oh yeah, how suave and sophisticated. (At least Mr.T never had any racial illusions like you do: he openly admitted that he was "just a high-payed slave" on the Hollywood plantation!)
My how apt we are to see the world thru white-'colored' glasses!
I guess you missed my comment about Bruce Lee and Carradine's "Kung Fu", or do you drink and post? [Why do I bother with these white idiots!?]
The Mac:
In article , [email] wrote:
I swear, the *worst* thing about being a minority person of color is that one must spend so much social time arguing with white *idiots*!
It's germane precisely because--as Jews love to correctly point out themselves--Speilberg is himself a member of an histortically persecuted minority! Idiot! --And for the past decade--at least--they are always haranguing on "Black anti-Semitism! Idiot!
See if you can read!--Idiot!: (Copy & Paste):
Do you see the name *Alice Walker*? Your typical white attempt at marginalizing the thoughts of people of color are more than historical. Idiot!
No. Precisely the opposite. It's because these are the kind of nonthreatening Blacks--sometimes namby-pamby, sometimes cartoonish, sometimes ever-jocular--that you white folks love--until more than a few of them move into your neighborhoods. Idiot!
Maybe you should read what Wesley said about *all* y'all white folks in Vibe Magazine after the Simi Valley verdict and see if you like him so much then! He wouldn't have fit your notion of the contented happy darkie. Idiot!
It bears repeating: I swear, the *worst* thing about being a minority person of color is that one must spend so much social time arguing with white *idiots*!
I suggest you who were so offended go rent a copy of "Shogun". The scene where poor Anjin-san gets urinated on will probably make you feel a whole lot better.
I'm with you guys! I think everyone's just being a little too sensitive about this. For goodness sake, it's a COMEDY show!!! Being a Chinese-American, I've never been offended by any of the Chinese characters on Seinfeld, or on any other show for that matter. In fact, I thought they were pretty funny. Let the ignorant think what they want; that's their problem. It doesn't change who I am.
If the role was offensive, the actors wouldn't have accepted it in the first place. I watched The Checks and loved it. I especially laughed at the part where the Japanese men were sleeping in the drawers. But does that mean I believe that the Japanese really sleep in drawers. NO! Of course not! And that's why I thought it was so funny!
I just hope that we, as a human race, are intelligent enough to know that, whatever the race/religion, we are all INDIVIDUALS.
Does life really have to be so serious?
Live a little, laugh a little, love a little...
--AKL
[email] (Barry Gaudet) wrote:
you. Those with absolutely no tolernece for any view but your own. Complain all you want for what good it will do.
[email] (Bill Bride) wrote:
period! Next people will be dumping on the show for using Kenny Rogers, saying the show is against country music preformers (or washed up Yankee pitchers). Enough of this crap, just kick back and enjoy the show.
Did the Japanese actors in the "Seinfeld" episode find it offensive?
From: [email] Date: 14 Nov 1996 18:43:42 GMT Message-ID:
You Mainland Japanese have GOT to lighten up...there's a line between pride and arrogance, and you Kotonks have crossed it!
Mr. Kapoor, Because my wife and in-laws have schooled me well in Pidgin English of Hawaii, I know what Kotonk is. Please inform the Seinfeld group what it is!! A detailed explanation why they're Kotonks should get their blood boiling or LOL!!!
Angelo (wishing I was in HI)
[email] wrote:
(the rest snipped)
I believe the original was initiated by someone in Mainland USA. Nevertheless, the fuss is nothing but a "tempest in a *chanoyu* pot". However it gave all sorts of people a chance to vent about all the people who hate them and are the cause of all evil in the world.In this sense it is healthy as they are beating on keyboards rather then on the heads of their fantasy enemies. Seinfeld is cathartic and good for everyone - take a dose once a week and try laughing.
Following in a fashionable trend, should not Kramer be sued for discrimation, suspended from his job(?) and then be boycotted? Wow! What a contemporary story line. Chuck---
I'm Japanese, and my parents always like it when they show Japanese people on TV. We weren't offended AT ALL with that hilarious episode, and I think that it was good how they finally showed an episode about Japan and Japanese people. End of story.
Oh, and navel oranges ARE rare in Japan. They only come out in summer (infact, they're called "summer oranges" in Japan) and they're expensive, too.
References: Distribution:
[email] wrote:
What a sad sad picture you paint here. First of all, it is a sitcom, a television show, yes even a fantasy. After all, these aren't real people. It came about before advertising was big to promote via Seinfeld, but the viewers have made it one which commands a big dollar to advertise. Yet, your philosophy skews that idea.
Actually, it is funny for the most part, and I agree that the people if I were to meet them in real life would perhaps be unlikeable. However, it shows in that they are only friends with each other and have a hard time interacting with those around them. Like I said, it is a parody on life. Believe it or not, the events which take place, the conversations which take place for the most part could happen in real life. The idea of coincidence is taken from real life awkward situations which no one would ever fathom actually happening. However, truth is stranger than fiction. Yet, you will argue that this *treatment* (for lack of better word) of Asians is reprehensible. I cannot disagree with you more. As I stated in an earlier post, with which "Nowhere" concurred, we must look at patterns from the show.
Seinfeld is like a mirror on society. While our intentions might be great, we sometimes look like fools. Are you so above we base Seinfeld fans that you can't see yourself in any of these characters? And why are we so bad anyway? Does not your generalization of Seinfeld watchers as anti-Asian, qualify you as the self same person you so dislike?
Kramer always tries to pretend that he is the most cultured in this show. Recall, his pronunciation of Karate in the first episode. He looked great beating on children didn't he? What about his protest against the chicken joint only to recant his position? These are solely this season. He has looked foolish in the past as well. The thing is that Kramer actually is that person we all know who is the resident expert who actually hasn't a clue. He is good at heart, but very misinformed. Are most of us misinformed one way or another? What about people who shout to the blind? They've done parodies on that.
If someone recites racial, homophobic, or sexist epithets, of course that is horrible. One should take offense to that. However, a portrayal of a misunderstanding between cultures should not be considered offensive. I feel that those who find things with which to take offense often need to complain about something all the time. Those who claim to be victimized, I've learned, generally have no problems, but need to be categorized in society's spotlight. Call it Narcissism or what you will, but it really takes away from the enjoyment of life.
I'm sorry that this sounds rough, but right about now, people are making an issue out of nothing. the last time this much talk existed about comparing a sitcom to real life, Dan Quayle looked like a mighty big fool. Why don't we take Seinfeld for what it is, a parody, a sitcom, humor, sarcasm, and a self examination and leave well enough alone?
In article , [email] says...
I am native-born Vietnamese. However, I happened to find the episode of Seinfeld in question very funny. Too bad you found it offensive. Too bad for you, that is.
Anyway, I happen to find jokes about Asians being bad drivers, for example, very funny as well. I happen to drive just fine, but that doesn't mean I can't find that funny.
I don't find the depictions on Seinfeld offensive at all. Too bad you do. That is all.
for
example,
I am a White male and I also don't take offense when my group is ridiculed or made fun of, such as on home improvement. If you can't laugh at yourself you better not laugh at anyone else.
In article , [email] says...
Absolutely. If they can't appreciate Kramer and his goofy friends, I'd hate to see the racist double-entendre's that these professional victims would draw out of a Disney cartoon! Are you SAYING that Mickey Mouse isn't a stereotypical Black, DD ins't a jew, and Goofy isn't Polish?
Yeah. Everybody likes me because I'm a white guy, *just like that hunky Brad Pitt*! Suuure, whatever, bub.
That's about the most useless attitude possible in terms of reducing racial tension -- the idea that, because I am of an ethnic group different than your own, I am fundamentally incapable of understanding you, and vice versa. If that were true, there would be no point in even discussing it or trying to ease tensions -- we'd simply never understand each other.
Fortunately, that's just close-mindedness on your part.
Yes, there are stereotypes on TV. There are as many stereotypes of white men as there are of "AAM"s, as you call them, though. It's not like you're the only one getting such treatment. And people -- people with an IQ larger than their shoe size, that is -- realize that. That's especially true of "Seinfeld", which creates a lot of its humor by clashing stereotyped characters together.
J.
[followups set]
In article , [email] says...
Though I am not "this guy," I will defend Seinfeld's PARODY of a fact. PARODY involves a degree of ridiculousness in its imitation. What is the "fact" at issue? The very small horizontal sleeping booths that, if they do not currently exist, used to exist in Japanese cities, primarily for the use of businessmen. Fine, businesspersons.
Also, I take difference to your implication that the show ONLY ridicules Japanese, etc. As I look at the show as a whole, the ones that look the stupidest are the main characters. Why don't you spend your time improving race relations in ways that actually will matter? TV, though watched by millions, is generally regarded by most people as mundane, trite, and low in cultural value. People watch TV for admittedly low cultural value entertainment. In general.
Who have you heard say, "To further enrich myself and my understanding of the world, I have decided to watch TV extensively." That should strike you as an oxymoron.
:
the
an
: : duh, i did watch tb to bether mi edukashun.,.......
Duh...That's ejumakashun!!!
In article , [email] (Tomoyuki Tanaka) wrote:
The way to eliminate racism and stereotyping is by one's CONDUCT, not by force. You cannot change people's minds by force, you cannot fight racism with racism. When someone acts without prejudice, their conduct becomes an exemplar to the community, and is a role model for others to follow. When someone spreads racism and hate, they also become a role model for others. You might consider this, Mr. Tanaka, when you are spreading your racism across the Internet.
In your own case, Mr. Tanaka, I have repeatedly asked you to cease your harrassments, and stop using the offensive, harassing newsgroups that bear my name. You cannot innocently claim to be a voice of peace, while every message you bear contains a message of hate against ME, someone who has done you NO wrong, but has merely disagreed with your opinions. Cease this harassment NOW, or you will prove yourself to be a hypocrite.
[email] (Charles Eicher) wrote:
(I am kosher delete)
I found a good url to prove why we should not believed mr seinfeld's sincerely. check it out below.:
In article , [email] says... ->I too believe that getting rid of anti-asian racism, stereotypes, and ->sort of mythological misperceptions of asian people, & cultures ->is an important thing. -> ...If not for humanitarian reasons, then for reasons of self ->interest. -> Self-interested reasons for getting rid of anti-asian racism ->& stereotypes: -> 1) in the long run. This hurts the U.S. economy. -> exports will be improved, if mainstream american perceptions -> of asians and asian cultures are more accurate and realistic. -> -> 2) better foreign relations. -> to prevent foolish diplomatic snafus, and to reduce -> chances of WARS of an egotistic, foolish, & pointless nature.
Therefore, the one of the first and most important steps is to petition the producers of Seinfeld.
excellent points! (see below)
what are some good books (paperbacks) on the strategies and successes of the Jewish organizations ADL, JDL, etc?
i want to learn from their WONDERFUL success.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- In article , wrote: