Time To Start Some Shit

Did Friends rip off Seinfeld? Some people who say yes, say the only difference between the shows is Friends has younger, better looking actors. Some people who say no, say the shows are totally different. Some say Seinfeld, in its last few seasons, copied Friends.

Paul

In article , "paul d valenti" wrote:

Friends is more of a fantasy world... that apartment... always running into hot chicks.. only white people in a village coffee house... Ross getting hot chicks in the sack even though he's practically a woman (whereas in reality he would just be their non-threatening "friend")...

If Friends is a fantasy world, then Seinfeld is a bizarro world. You express surprise about Ross getting hot chicks--what about George?!

I think Friends is helped somewhat by its more serious side (with it's focus on relationships, rather than relationship endings...), but that also hurts the rerun value. I'd much rather watch an episode of Seinfeld a second (or third, or fourth, or twentieth) time, because they get funnier each time you watch 'em. But while I enjoyed the Ross-Rachel thread when I first saw it, I can't stand watching it in reruns now.

John

In article , "John Twernbold" wrote:

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Good points... George dating models was a huge stretch-- he wasn't rich... he was even unemployed at points... so it made no sense at all for him to get that calibre of chicks.

AP wrote:

I would have taken offense if you had said actresses :-) Elayne rules !

NV.

Jerry isn't so bad either, but since all my goyish friends look at me funny when I say that, I guess it's a matter of opinion. ; ) The fact however remains that both the cast and the dialogue of Friends failed to intrigue me (I watched it like three times before I gave up), while Seinfeld had me hooked right away (I think the first episode I saw was when they found out Kramer's first name). Okay, that's opionated too, so sioux me. : )

Cristalle

Cristalle Azundris Sabon wrote:

The Switch - that is on MY "best 10 list" There is so much in that episode - it is written so tight!

Gee, that's one line Jerry did not use in The Cigar Store Indian. he made .. reservations he bought tickets from ... a scalper he accused Winona of being an ... Indian giver

But he did not Sioux anyone. :-)

I think Elaine was the sexiest female character on TV because of looks but mostly because of attitude but I think I liked the old look for Elaine better and then she turned into a total bitch. But I think the actresses on Friends are getting too skinny and I don't like their recent looks for them.

Paul

Cristalle "Azundris" Sabon wrote in message news:[email]...

As a fan of both Seinfeld and Friends, I don't think they're at all similar (just my opinion!). To be pedantic, of course there are *similarities* (as there are with most sitcoms), but I don't believe for one second that either show copied anything off each other.

Also, I don't find ANY of the guys on either S or F to be particularly physically attractive (I'm female). I find Jerry, Kramer, George and Newman to be particularly unattractive, which I think is absolutely wonderful in a world where sitcoms are full of beautiful people. I think all of the girls in S & F are attractive, in different ways.

Just my .012 cents (Australian, converted from American).

Vonnie.

Oh, they copied, and they're similar! Even George commented on it at Monk's when he derisively said all television today (circa 1995) is:

"Just four morons sitting around talking!"

Friends was a Seinfeld clone, and was the only one of a couple clones to make it past the first year. Then Friends was successful, and then they begat Friends clones!

Vonnie wrote:

And isn't that what Wilde said his plays were about? That was around the fin de siecle -- not exactly a new concept... ; )

Azundris

I believe that was a self-deprecating dig at their own show. After all, Seinfeld is the show featuring four people, often sitting around and talking at Monk's or Jerry's apartment. Friends has six people, and seems to feature less talking.

I agree with Vonnie, the shows are totally different. Sure, they're both set in NYC, but that's about the only similarity, and is shared by a number of other 90's sitcoms. Friends features younger characters and some serious (read: "dramatic" and less-funny) plotlines. Seinfeld is far more quirky, and (to me, anyway) funnier. Totally different type of humor, in my opinion.

John

George's riff was a dig at all those type of shows, including Seinfeld. At the time he made the interesting comment, there were a bunch of Seinfeld sitcom-clones on the air. None made it except Friends.

I agree Friends is different from Seinfeld, but it started as a clone. Imitation is the sincerest form of Television. At the time Friends was launched, critics all over the country compared it to Seinfeld, and it's a very fair comparisoin. You know all the networks wanted a Seinfeld clone, and Friends was NBC's. I'm not talking about what it is today, but how it started -- the hook to drag you into watching it.

Sitcoms before Seinfeld were still stuck in the "long lost cousin visits protagonist, turns out to be unethical creep, everyone learns a lesson" -style of episodic TV. When Seinfeld became popular in the early 90s, the clones started being quirky and odd, with no heavy plot, wandering all over the map, just like Seinfeld does.

Friends is far more similar to Seinfeld than it is different. Sure there are 6 protagonists, but everyone is odd, and a lot more moronic than the Seinfeld 4. The NY angle is still important, adding to the quirkiness of both shows. And remember, all those shows set in NY were because of Seinfeld being set in New York... the comfort zone for new viewers (and all those millions living there may be more willing to tune in... so what if the 3K residents of Podunk tune out?)

A difference is the bad things that happen to the protagonists in Friends (which are funny to the viewer) happen because of the stupidity of characters! Mainly in Seinfeld, the funny things that occurred were because of unintended consequences of generally good-hearted actions. That's why the Seinfeld 4 are more lovable (awww) than the Friends 6.

But in general, the style of the show are very similar, which is what happens when you make a clone of a successful series such as Seinfeld. Go check out the old Fall Preview issues of TV Guide when Friends came out -- it'll prove my points.

John Twernbold wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion, but I still disagree. In fact, Friends was more similar to its 7:00 lead-in show, Mad About You, than it was to Seinfeld. Remember, Mad About You was a NYC-based sitcom that debuted in '92, two years before Friends in 1994, and before Seinfeld became incredibly popular. Whereas Seinfeld features much more imaginative and connected plots, both Friends and Mad About You are based on classic sitcom styles. Friends and Mad About You owe more to I Love Lucy than they do to Seinfeld.

The big NYC-sitcom craze happened in the mid-90's, due in part to Seinfeld, but also because of Friends (and indirectly, Mad About You and all the other earlier NYC sitcoms). Look at shows like Caroline in the City, The Single Guy, etc--they all started in 1995. They're all based on the traditional sitcom, but set in NYC. Seinfeld was very different from all of them, sharing only the location and the non-family focus.

You gotta be kidding, right? Seinfeld's characters are funny because they're *not* lovable--as Larry David pointed out, "no messages, no growth, nobody learns" (paraphrased). His finale was a perfect example of this: a show about 4 people who are basically shallow, superficial, and selfish, and in the end all their dirty laundry is laid out and used against them. Compared to the traditional syrupy-sweet sitcom characters, this different style of characterization was a welcome change. But if you look at all the other NYC sitcoms, they have more classic sitcom characters.

when

old

points.

lol, I'll call your bluff--that issue does mention Friends is a "pack-of-pals" show like Ellen and Seinfeld. However, I don't necessarily consider TV Guide to be the authoritative source when it comes to sitcom influences. As I said, I agree that Friends and Seinfeld do have similarities (NYC, no families), but they're far more dissimilar than Friends and any of its offspring.

I guess I'm surprised that *any* Seinfeld fan would find it to be similar to Friends; having seen every episode of both shows (except for the Seinfeld Pilot), they're like night and day. I would expect the *non*-fans to lump them together.

John

John Twernbold wrote:

<snip> Right you are. I just watched a MAY rerun in which Paul loses his wedding ring and can't tell Jamie (Lucy and Dezi all over again)!!! John, you are seeing below the surface into what is the genius of Seinfeld - why it took situation comedy "over the top". The original teams of writers were schooled in the classics and they knew the basis of structure that gave substance to our fav four's characters. The cowardly George, the inept but quick thinking Kramer, Elaine's emotional quests and Jerry's unfeeling stoic, but centered, character all owe their development to centuries of human story-telling. We all identify the completeness of the human psyche in the amalgam of those qualities. -Jung's mandela - the squared circle - It formed a completeness that we as humans understand. From that they added the brilliant dialogue and developed their stories on down to earth experiences (which comes from Jerry's humour). They pushed the envelop into territory no other present sit-com dared to go because they could handle it well. The only other sit-com that did that was All in The Family back in the early 70's. They both "threw away the book" and forced us to think differently. ... Friends in the same breath as Seinfeld - I think not.

I don't see any way out of this argument over whether or not Seinfeld is more like or unlike Friends. I say the two have more in common than not, you say the opposite. You say potato . . . . I'm going to be diplomatic and have to say there are elements of both truths in what we say.

John Twernbold wrote:

Well, Mad About You is also about life's little randomness, good intentions going bad, a lot like Seinfeld. Then again, there are also episodes with more typical sitcom laffs. And since it's about a couple, there's more mildly amusing domestic trifle than in Seinfeld, and more drama.

I guess I need to be clear. Most of Seinfeld's classic moments *are* the unintended problems resulting from good intentions. Jerry losing the model because of the nose scratch... Elaine accidentally tripping into Sidra's boobs... Babu being deported because of missed mail... Jerry losing Mulva because he didn't know her name cuz he already made out with her.... Seinfeld himself always this was key to the success of the show. They were shallow and selfish, but didn't start to be idiots and morons until the last 3-4 seasons: (Jerry not knowing what the "salty discharge" was, etc., give me a break.) They started turning into charicatures, not at all acting like normal people, but typical sitcom idiots. The sometimes meanness and cruelty and sometimes moronic lines, ("So... Susan's dead," etc.), made it seem like they were coasting during those final years, writing the easy zinger.

Oh I agree, they are different, but night and day? No. Friends started out as a clone, and a clone it remains to me. I'm not a Friends fan at all, I can barely stand to watch the show. It's dreck. Everytime I watch it, it reminds me it's a Seinfeld clone and how far the apple *can* fall from the tree.

C

What would be a good crossover between Seinfeld and Friends? Paul Charles Casserly wrote in message news:[email]...

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How about they see each other naked? Or they ogle out the window at an naked person across the street? Or one of them dates someone with an annoying laugh? Or one of them marries/is engaged to a lesbian? Or the gang flies around the world for a wedding?

paul d valenti wrote:

ok. that is a start. Maybe Joey can date Elaine. Jerry can be a cool friend the guys hang out with and look up to but then Ross gets grossed out by Jerry trying to pick up his sister, but wait a minute, CC was Jerry's fake wife in The Wife. Oh well, have the storyline anyway. Maybe Kramer turns out to be Phoebe's father. But then again he never slipped one by the goalie. That shouldn't be a problem because you already got the fact of George and Susan watching MAY in The Engagement, so what the hey. I saw some fanfic where Joey did date Elaine. If Friends did do a crossover with Seinfeld it could get monster ratings. Maybe Seinfeld's gang could do a crossover on a friends ep as a one shot deal if they don't want to do a movie or special ep of their own. In an interview a few years ago, Jason was asked if he would ever join the cast of Friends when Seinfeld was over. He laughed and said,"Yes." But then he said what was the point, he could not imagine himself with that generation and he would be like Al on Happy Days, just serving burgers to the gang. Besides, they would never let him get anywhere near CC, although he had his chance on Seinfeld.

Paul Casserly wrote in message news:[email]...

naked

flies

Paul wondered: "What would be a good crossover between Seinfeld and Friends?"

A cross-over certainly would have been possible since they lived in the same universe (TV-wise). The link between the two shows is Mad About You, a program in which both Kramer and Pheobe appeared.

There is a major inconsistancy, though. As has been discussed here before, on the episode of MAY in which Kramer appears, it's revealed that Paul Buckman used to live in (and later sub-let) Kramer's apartment. On a later episode of Seinfeld, George and Susan watched MAY...conceivably they could have seen the episode in which Kramer appeared.

Jerry also appeared on MAY as himself (Paul saw him on the street, recognized and chased him). It could be argued that Paul ran into Jerry Seinfeld the TV character and recognized him because he was a somewhat well-known stand-up comic (as opposed to Jerry Seinfeld the real person and retired sit-com star).

I know, I know....too much free time.

John Twernbold wrote:

If anything I'd say "The Single Guy" was closer to being a "Seinfeld" clone than "Friends" ever has been (but "TSG" only lasted about two years and already is almost forgotten).

I think the biggest difference between "Seinfeld" and "Friends" is the former was far more elaborately constructed and, as such, far more subtle and intellectually challenging, even though on the surface it wasn't presented as a show for intellectuals and/or pseudo-intellectuals (as "Frasier" is often thought/presumed to be).

"Friends" usually seems to settle for easy humour one way or another and I'd be surprised if the writers have to do the brainstorming I'd imagine those at "Seinfeld" must have had to do.

Just my two cents.

CPJ2000

Does anyone know if it's true that the producers of Friends pitched their show to NBC by saying their show was a light hearted version of Seinfeld?

Paul CPJ2000 wrote in message news:[email]...

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In article , "paul d valenti" wrote:

"Too skinny"? What's that mean?

Jen Aniston is hotter now that she lost all that extra poundage... especially on her ass. Courtney is getting hagged out... but neither are "too thin"-- whatever THAT means.

JA looked better with the weight. Too skinny in my opinion means real boney like a lot of supermodels. That is true for CC. I think in Jen's case it means she looked a lot better before with the weight. I don't think she was fat when Friends started,though.

Paul AP wrote in message news:8d035k$f32$[email]...

Jen Aniston owes everything to the person who's responsible for icing down her nipples right before the camera rolls for each scene.

I'll just assume you don't know who Callista Flockheart is.

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Never mind, all you need to know is which episode the spanking is in, and who Whipper is.

  Azundris, who thought Whipper was fourty before she looked
            her up, and who hopes to be looking that good at
            sixty, and who will get back on topic now

Dave ratboy wrote: "...Jen Aniston owes everything to the person who's responsible for icing down her nipples right before the camera rolls for each scene...."

Exactly how does one go about getting a job like that? Think it's a union gig? Where do I send my reume?

I *try* to like "Friends", but it isn't easy. I'm *extremely* put off by the 'hip' way they misuse the word 'so' as a modifier. As in, "This show is SO not funny." or "I am SO not going to watch it anymore." And they do it constantly, unaware of how annoying it is.

And I simply can't stand David Schwimmer's Ross. He must be the biggest creampuff in the history of TV sitcoms, and I never for a moment empathized with his character. "Oh poor me, I really love Rachel but I'm too big a pussy to tell her, so I'm just going to mope around and eat my own heart out every time she dates another guy." Puh-lease. This shit belongs in daytime serials, not a prime time sitcom. My friends and I joke about how he must have only taken one acting class, and they must have tought emotions alphabetically, because all he knows is "angst".

What they need to do is dump all the women (Rachel, Phoebe, Monica and Ross) and just concentrate on Joey and Chandler. *That* would be a show worth watching.

It's Siouxs. Alright? Siouxs. Not Siouxs-zee! :)

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Dave wrote:

I thought it was Sharon :-)

NV.

She looks like a 'Lily'.

LOL - It took a while - VERY FUNNY!!!

Well, that's what it's like to be old, non? : ) He means the one with the Suburbanshees.

Azou

In article ,

She's cute but ever since Aniston lost that fat ass of hers, she's one of the hottest pieces of ass in sitcomland.

Friends has better looking actors than Seinfeld??

The Friends actors are younger and I think better looking. At least the male actors on Friends are supposed to be. Paul

Cristalle "Azundris" Sabon wrote in message news:[email]...

No, no, no, no, no. In order to start a successful flame war, you should have cross-posted this to both alt.tv.seinfeld and alt.tv.friends.

 -- Z.
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