Fans debate whether the show inappropriately bashes Christians through Puddy's character, with some defending the humor and others expressing concern about religious stereotyping.
I'm a really big Seinfeld fan and will watch him til' I die, but why the Christian bashing all of a sudden? It's been 9 seasons of shows about various plot lines about nothing and then all of a sudden the writers feel the need to bash a religious community. I wouldn't really care if there was a character on the show that had the values of a "real" Christian, but to say that puddy is a Christian is insulting. Now that that is said let the bashing begin!
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Actually, I'm a Christian myself, but I thought it was hilarious. I was worried, though, that some people would think that Puddy's attitude was representative of all Christians, and that's not the case. Puddy was not acting as a true Christian, but I thought it was a very funny characterization of the not-so-funny false Christians.
I am an athiest, and I always wonder why when someone makes a movie that makes fun of or depicts christians (or catholics but they are all the same.) as humans with the same flaws as everyone else, the big organizations make a huge deal saying that it is christian bashing.
This post is not aimed at the original poster, but it is just a comment in general. an off topic ramble that is best ignored. Possibly incoherent too
Well, this show has poked fun of Asians (Chinese restaurant episode), the disabled (wheelchair episode), women (every other episode), Arabs (Abu deportation episode), senior citizens (All episodes set in Florida plus the goiter episode), Jews (Anti-dentite episode plus Elaine's rabbi neighbor), celebrities (Jackie Charles as Johnny Cochran, Time-slot hit episode), rich people (Mr.Pittman episodes), poor people (Elaine's welfare boyfriend), and Homosexuals ("not that there's anything wrong with that" episode).
I see no reason why they couldn't make fun of Christians. I've long since given up on finding hidden motives behind Seinfeld episodes. Basically, they're an equal-opportunity type show. They satirize everyone equally.
Besides, I don't think they were poking fun at Christians as much as they were poking fun at pretentiously religious people. You know, people like David Puddy who give the impression they are religious, but doesn't exactly live a religious life.
And let's not forget the mentally handicapped (Mel Torme episode), "short" people (Mickey), blacks (the episode where George tries to impress the black boss at the Yankees), native Americans ("Cigar Store Indian"), Nazis, Communists, children, dog owners, postal employees, etc., etc., yadi, yada. Every possible demographic or quasi-demographic group you can think of has been lampooned...
BTW, it's Babu, not Abu. You may be thinking of Apu from the Simpsons...
There was that classic scene when Puddy tells Elaine to steal her neighbor's
newspaper because he didn't want to break the 10 commandments. And the great
part where Elaine says to Puddy, 'doesn't it bother you that I don't believe in
God?', and he replies, 'why should it bother me, I'm not the one who's going to
hell'.
We don't know what kind of a Xian Puddy is, if he's evangelical,
fundamentalist, Presbyterian...some sects are more relaxed than others...
That's exactly right. I'm a Christian, but I wasn't offended cause I knew the point wasn't to slam my faith. I was sitting there laughing at Puddy when I was telling Elaine to steal the paper cause she's the one going to hell not. him. Then I thought, "wait a sec. If we're gonna count sins he's just as guilty as her cause he's being promiscuous with her in bed." Then that rabbi went and said the same thing and I had to laugh again.
Michael Janke
Cindy Morgan NET
http://members.aol.com/MSJanke/cindy
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I particularly enjoyed the slam against those ridiculous 'Jesus' fish.
I, too, have placed a fish on my bumper but for a different reason.
For more info, load this page:
http://www.evolvefish.com/ and click on "Fish Emblems".
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(The Religious Right is neither.)
As a Christian who has watched Seinfeld not for the entertainment value, but to find hidden messages, I have come to one conclusion that every fine, upright person should know.
Bob Sacamano is the devil.
Think about it. He is never seen, but figures importantly in Kramer's life. The only episode where Jerry claimed Bob was his friend was the Kenny Roger's Roasters show, where Jerry succumbed to the temptations of Kramer's swingin', satanic lifestyle and moved into Cosmo's apartment. As further proof, Kramer's apartment is a bright red, due to some light source. We are told it's the Kenny Roger's neon sign, but it is really the BURNING HELLFIRE OF THE UNREPENTANT!!!! HEED MY WARNINGS!
Oops. I just finished two cans of Jolt within 15 seconds; sorry.
And 'The Burning' as an episode name. C'mon, people! Again, the burning fires of the Inferno come up as a topic!!! REPENT!
One more thing: take some of the letters from 'Robert Sacamano', and what do you get? SATAN!
That about wraps it up. Next week's topic will be: Parallels Between Nietchze's Superman and Jerry Seinfeld.
Jeff "So much of a Christian, I don't even know how to spell Neechee" Billard
I don't think that Seinfeld enganged in Christian-bashing, but I will have to think about that.
But what bothers me - is when people have those little parodies of the Christian fish symbol, where it says "Darwin" in the middle and the fish has feet. I realize that people are criticizing the evolution views of some Evangelical Christians, but I find it offensive.
Even though I am mainstream Protestant (United Church of Christ), not a fundamentalist and do ascribe to the theory of evolution, I think it wrong. You do not denigrate a symbol of a religion. If something similar was done to a Star of David, people would be offended as well.
What many people do not know as the history of the symbol, is that it was a secret sign between Christians in the early days, when they were persecuted. I don't think it proper to make fun of that.
Why do Jews wear a Star of David and those hand things (sorry I forgot the name) or Catholics a crucifix? Why do Hindi women have those dots on their forehead? Its an expression of their faith. Christians who put the fish on their car (or whereever) are expressing their faith. We don't have to agree with their theology or idelogy, but we should not make fun of them. I can't see any reason why!
If, when you say Christian, you mean adherents to a particular religious faith, I agree that they shouldn't be made fun of. However, for a great many people who call themselves Christian, it has more to do with a particular brand of conservative political ideology than it has to do with faith or religion. IMO, by engaging in the political fray they have become just another special interest group and they deserve to be ridiculed as much as any other special interest group.
Even those you perhaps judge as not real, but political Christians see themselves as faithful Christians. How can we judge them?
Besides, many other religious groups are involved in political issues, even us brand of Christians who protest the involvement of the Christian Coaltion!
I'm not judging their Christianity or lack thereof. However, I do judge their credibility on various issues. For instance, IMO, Billy Graham has a lot of credibility, while Pat Robertson has zero credibility, even though they would both be considered Conservative Christians by most standards.
Why do Jews wear a Star of David and those hand things (sorry I forgot the name)
** The hand thing is called a hamsa, which (like
the symbol itself) is Arabic. There is more
of superstition and mysticism in it than of
mainstream Judaism. The same could be said
of the hexagram (the Star of David), except
that the hexagram-- notwithstanding its
not-particularly-Jewish origins-- has made
its way more deeply into Jewish culture and
while
the hamsa has a simple meaning (basically,
"back atcha") there is no simple meaning to
the hexagram.
I'm sorry, but my sister and I are both Christians, and we nearly fell on the floor laughing over that episode. She had to call me long distance halfway through the show and we rolled through the rest of it! Yes, the show got a little out of control, but hey, God made us with a sense of humor, so I guess we're allowed to use it--and Seinfeld has certainly put mine to very good use!
I have a darwin fish on my car. It was designed to offend - or else it would just say "evolution is neato" or something. The whole idea is to mock and disgrace the Christian religion. I'm glad that it suceeds in offending Christians.
Look, my parents are Jewish, but when I was old enough to form my own beliefs, I found myself to be an atheist. I get offended whenever I see those bumper stickers that say, "Jesus died for you," etc. First of all, I don't believe that and secondly, who are you (the driver with the bumper sticker) to push your beliefs down everybody's throat? Keep it to yourself. But, as long as people can have those stickers and fish, why can't the guy above have a Darwin fish?
Sorry this isn't Seinfeld-related, but I had to chip in my 2 cents.
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:38:35 GMT, Eric Scott Eisenberg wrote:
I agree with you on people pushing their beliefs down other people's throats. I hate those bumper sticker people. Whether it's religious or atheist, right-wing or left-wing, it is just annoying. The funniest one was this guy I saw that had the back of his car plastered with stickers. "Pro-Child/Pro-choice", "Think globally, Act locally." "Save the rainforests", and all this environmental crap. Meanwhile, he was driving a peace of shit old car that was spewing blue smoke all over the place. It was probably leaking oil too.
I am one of those "bumper sticker people" you wrote about. I have three bumper stickers on my well-running (no blue smoke whatsoever) car advertising 3 local Christian radio stations. I do not display them to aggravate or "save" other drivers--I enjoy listening to the programs there and get a little kick out of seeing my Christian "brothers" and "sisters" that have the same bumper stickers. Makes me feel connected to others in the community! BTW, I didn't feel that the episode was degrading *real* Christians, but *so-called* Christians who don't practice what they preach!
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998, Pillutla, Ramesh & Carolyne wrote:
Although you didn't directly reply to my message, I did mention something about bumper stickers in my original post. If you want to put Christian radio stations on your car, I have no problem with that. I said that I have a problem with the stickers that try to push beliefs on others, like "Jesus died for you." It wouldn't be as bad if it said, "Jesus died for me." And for the guy/girl who said that I shouldn't read bumper stickers, give me a break. A lot of bumper stickers are funny and I enjoy reading them. I don't own any, but why should I not read them? Most people don't put stupid religious/political stickers on their cars.
Question: would it bother Christians if they saw a bumper sticker that said, "Nobody died for you"...I'm just wondering. What about "Allah is your lord" or something?
Wouldn't bother me? Why should it? It's just one persons opinion. I hardly think a bumper sticker on a car costitutes someone pushing their beliefs on me. And even if it does, so what? That person believes something strongly. Yay for them, I can choose not to believe it.
They're just bumper stickers. IMO, to get offended by them is pointless. What's wrong with "Jesus Died For You?" The message in itself is a positive one, but if you don't want to believe it then noones forcing you to. Do you get offended when you see a political bumpersticker. Like, if your conservative, seeing a Clinton/Gore sticker, or Save the Trees, Down With the Owls? I wouldn't. It's not like someones putting a gun to your head and dragging you into a church. Its just a bumper sticker. Or fish symbol. Accelerate and drive around the offending car.
As far as this Big Band/Creation/Evolution thing goes, here's one for you: I believe in the Biblical account of creation, but I also believe the Big Bang theory, and that evolution does take place, to a certian degree. Microevolution, but not macro. IMO, science and the Bible can and do exist in harmony.
But this is starting to veer seriously off topic.
Michael Janke
Cindy Morgan NET
http://members.aol.com/MSJanke/cindy
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Hot: Titanic soundtrack
A Maze of Grace, Avalon
The Loving Kind, Cindy Morgan
Okay, I've read enough of these things silently, and it's time for my $0.02 (Cdn, of course)...
On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:40:10 GMT, Eric Scott Eisenberg wrote:
Riiiiiiiiiight.
Good ol' America, the land of the free, guarantees freedom of speech for its citizens.
...Except if you're Christian, I guess. Then you apparently don't get free speech.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Well, isn't this *so* typical of society today. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. You want to read bumper stickers in order to avoid missing a good laugh or two, but should you read something you don't like, then it's the *other* person's fault, right?
Sorry. If you want to read bumper stickers, then you have to take the responsibility upon yourself that *you* risk getting offended.
Nobody is forcing you to read the bumper stickers. And nobody is forcing you to be "offended" at the bumper stickers.
And let me ask you this... If you don't *believe* "Jesus died for you", then why are you getting all "offended" about it in the first place?! What's the point in getting offended by something you don't even believe in?! Methinks someone is insecure about their own beliefs, if the beliefs of others "offend" them so much... <Sheesh>
Speaking for myself, no, neither one is particular offensive. I don't believe either statement, so I don't have to react emotionally to the idea that either statement is true. I can respectfully accept that the owner of the bumper sticker believes the statement his car bears, without getting all "offended" about his freedom of religion or freedom of speech.
I'm secure in my beliefs. Why aren't you?
Just out of curiosity, do you believe in and accept freedom of speech and freedom of religion? From your response, it doesn't seem so.
(And btw, it's interesting that the Christian bumper stickers are simply proclamations of their own beliefs, whereas the topics brought up as response, namely the "Darwin fish" and "Nobody died for you" are not so much personal internal beliefs, but rather attacks against *another's* beliefs. (I cannot help but obseve that attacks of another's belief system is itself a sign of insecurity about one's own beliefs).
(Another btw... Did you happen to know that Charles Darwin was actually a *CHRISTIAN*, and did not actually believe what is attributed to his name today? Darwin's theory was what one would term *micro*-evolution, or variation *within* a species. He never taught evolutionary variation from one species to a more advanced one, as is commonly thought.)
Jeff Shirton [email]
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I have no problem with the Darwin fish, but does "George" really think that anyone who actually has any faith will be "mocked and disgraced" by his little fish with legs? Give me a break! I am a Christian (sorry, no fish on my car) and I happen to think the Darwin fish was pretty funny (when I first saw it; it's a bit dated now). I never thought it was designed to disgrace anyone, however. Gee, I guess I should be insulted now.
BTW, since when did having a bumper sticker on your car constitute "push(ing) your beliefs down everybody's throat?" "Keep it to yourself"? That sounds pretty intolerant for a non-Christian. Nash
It's offensive because it excludes those of us who do not share those beliefs. Just like advertising your gas station in the newspaper and putting a religious symbol in the corner of the ad, yes, it tells people your beliefs, however, it implies that those who don't share your beliefs will be excluded, therefore treated differently.
Although I differ with those folks on many issues, I don't think they mean to imply that they exclude anyone, and I imagine most of them would be surprised that you draw that conclusion.
"David": Did you read the post that I replied to? Obviously not or if you did you must have forgot what it said- please review these kinds of things before posting. Ya, the Darwin fish is dated - it's a 1990 design. But hey the Jesus fish is pretty "dated" too.
I have followed this thread since it began and, so I could be accurate, I just re-read every post in the the thread. Your post replied to no other post in particular (at least not one that was referenced) and I have no idea what you are talking about. I agree with you that the Jesus fish is dated. By several hundred years, as a matter of fact. The Darwin fish, like any joke, is not as funny after hearing it (or seeing it) many times. Still,I don't find it at all insulting. You may be surprised to know that not all Christians discount the theory of evolution.
"But what bothers me - is when people have those little parodies of the Christian fish symbol, where it says "Darwin" in the middle and the fish has feet. I realize that people are criticizing the evolution views of some Evangelical Christians, but I find it offensive." "You do not denigrate a symbol of a religion"
That is the post I replied to. See how he is a Xtian? See how it offends him? See how he's obviously not the only one in the world? Now read my post . . .get how it pertains yet? You didn't even need to read the whole thread, just the post that I replied to. I am aware that even the Pope believes in evolution, and also the Big Bang - however most Christians do not.
It is true that some of the parodies of the Christian fish are a little derogatory, like the Phish fish or the Alien fish, but the Darwin fish is simply a statement of belief in Darwinian evolution. So, to quote YOU: >"You do not denigrate a symbol of a religion"
<*_*> Dystopian Dave
"Take my hand and follow me.... I'll set you free." Neue Slovenische Kunst - Laibach
I have the Darwin fish on my car. I believe that modern man (homo sapiens sapiens) evolved from more primitive forms of man (homo erectus, neanderthalus, australopithicus(sp?), etc) and that Darwin's theories of evolution and natural selection are the far more accurate and proveable way of explaining my existance on this planet.
So this fish shows anyone who drives behind me what my viewpoint is, and it pokes a little fun at the religious establishment at the same time. Everybody wins.
Don't read bumper stickers. Easy solution. No one is shoving it down your throat. They put a sticker on their bumper and YOU read it. That was your choice.
Hey, I'm Christian. I don't see the 'Darwinism' fish as an offeensive thing or an insult. I see it as a cry for help. "Help me.....help me believe in something more than a fictional bang that started the universe." If you feel the need to offend people or make fun of their religion(s), you really need help.
Evolution is not even a thoery, let alone fiction - it is a fact. Just as much as gravity is a fact - it's observable even. Evolution and the Big Bang have little to do with eachother; as someone pointed out - many xtians believe in evolution. If it's good fiction you're after I suggest the Bible.
Sorry about the typo buddy.... anyway, of course not. The Big Bang is simply a theory of how the universe came into existence, the Theory of Evolution explains how creatures have changed and developed and adapted and survived throughout the years. The Big Bang is no more responsible for the "fiction of evolution" then the Bible is responsible for the contra-evolutionary stance.... Fundamental Christians are the only people in existence who can close their minds and thought processes completely to other ideas by citing only one resource as their "proof." Whomever wrote the Bible was brilliant, they wrote a book so powerful that millions of people have been brutally slain in defense of its ideas and millions more held in servitude with the Bible as the justification.
There is a small religion that has a few followers in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and other areas of the world. I believe they are called "Muslims".You _might_ want to check into their beliefs (and maybe those of a few other religions) before you write something so ridiculous.
The Muslim belief system is similar to the Marxist communist ideals. The Muslims acknowledge the validity of other religions, but they believe that Islam is the next step on the monotheistic ladder. In addition, Islam follows a variety of writings, the Koran being only the spiritual side of Islam. In this way, the Muslims can distinguish between what is important for physical, spiritual, and mental health.... As far as I know, the number of people killed in the name of Islam pales in comparision to those slain in the name of Jesus. It was, of course, the Christians who initiated the crusades against the Moors and it was for the good of Christian Germany that European Jews were slain and it was for the good of Christian America that natives were persecuted.... oh yeah, and the Spanish Inquisition, and witch hunts.... So perhaps YOU should check into the beliefs of other religions before YOU write something so ridiculous.
Read your post and my response again. I don't deny that any of the terrible things done in the name of Christianity happened, but there are plenty of other religions that are trying damn hard to cause as much pain and suffering as possible in the name of their god against the infidels. Check out what's going on in Afghanistan right now. The fundamentalist Muslims are killing anyone who doesn't believe in and interpret the Koran _exactly_ as they do. That isn't closed-minded enough for you? Ask Salman Rushdie about his "open minded" enemies in the Middle East. BTW, I am just using Muslims as one example of this. Virtually every religion has its dark side. Even Atheists (I know; not a religion). Stalin and Mao were not very open minded, if I recall correctly.
In other words, Fundamentalist Christians are far from "the only people in existence who can close their mind" etc, etc.
I did reread your post, and do acknowledge that I was somewhat off-topic (as this whole thread is now....), and I understand what you are getting at. And it is true that every religion or lack thereof has its darkside, but the motivations for this violence is what is interesting. What I was originally getting at was that I would be hard-pressed to find a group who let one book govern their lives so completely.... I'm sure many Muslim groups are extremely closed minded, but if they are "fundamentalist" Muslims, then they acknowledge the validity of other religions, something a fundamentalist Christian does not. The Koran explicitly states that both Judaism and Christianity are valid religions, just as Marxist theory acknowledges feudalism and capitalism as necessary steps toward socialism and communism....
Have you ever seen the bumper sticker, where a big Christian fish is about to eat the Darwin fish? It says, "Survival of the Fittest." Dang funny! I need to get a shirt with that.
No bashing of Christianity...just a rather gentle jibe at some of the individuals who combine holier- than-thou pronouncements with behavior just as hedonistic as the rest of us poor mortals. It's a com- mentary about the moral inconsistency of a lot of contemporary baby-boom generation adults...and it fits in with the show's broader theme, which is a gen- eral satire of the self-centered self-absorption of a whole American generation.
Puddy's just one more example of how Seinfeld is NOT a show about "nothing." And that's one ot the reasons it's so funny...