Should he be called The Soup Nazi?

It's all very funny the first few times, but after a while, I find "Soup Nazi" rather offensive. My stepfather braved through WWII in Nazi concentration camps. This kind of scenario (also experienced by American Soldiers in Korea, Vietnam), is probably the worst possible experience any human being could go through. Death around you day in and day out for many years, seemingly to never end.

So, constantly referring to this guy as the Soup Nazi seems inappropriate to me. He's not evil, just a bit grumpy. He doesn't kill people if they don't obey, just deny them soup.

And to believe that Jerry of all people, Jewish that he is, would allow the writers to put the term "Soup Nazi" into the script. Couldn't they have come up with a better name?

Some of you may say "Hey buddy, give it a rest. It's just comedy." But there's a very important principle here. This kind of comedy "lightens" the meaning of Nazi. We don't want to do that. We can never forget what the people who went by this name did to fellow humans. They ruthlessly murdered them in very tortuous ways. I'm not saying to dwell on this for eternity, just put things in their proper perspective.

Sorry to put a dampener on things, but I just wanted to let you know...

-Gary K.

Your comments regarding the word "nazi" are totally understandable. My question is if you don't like that particular word, what word would you suggest? I find this problem analagous to the use of the word "nigger", which is highly descriptive of a state of being and, it can be argued, has absolutely nothing to do with people of African-American descent. The character in the Seinfeld show has certain traits that we have come to associate with Nazis: a dogmatic attitude that is impervious to argument,for example. Again, I completely understand your problems with the word. Would you like "Soup Communist?" Or how about "Soup Stalinist?" If we didn't all have hangups about "prohibited" speech, we might call our friend the restaurateur what he really is: an asshole.

In article ,

Of course we all learn a lesson from Elaine's powerful convictions that we can overcome the evils of society, no matter how insignificant it may seem (soup guy vs hitler for example). This Soup Nazi could be compared to Hitler right before the war. He is indoctrinating his people to love his soup and who knows what he might do next!!!

Seriously though, I don't think the use of Soup Nazi comedy lessons the impact of the Nazi regime of Hitler. If anything, it keeps the reference alive in popular culture and we are hard-pressed to forget what happened. If you know "joke theory" you know that most jokes are essentially about things that make us uncomfortable... that's just the way it is. If we can't separate ourselves from these kind of things then "comedy" goes out the window. Sure Nazism was evil but where to we draw the line as to what can be considered for a parody? The whole Soup Nazi premise provided a great showcase and opportunity (very absurd plot) for the cast. It was hilarious.

But he makes damn good Jambalaya!

I'm curious as to what other words you believe should be eliminated from our vocabulary.

I agree with Gary. There are some subjects that really don't belong

on a comedy show. When our local station did their lead-in to the

news that night, the super-obnoxious announcer said something like,

"Now, meet a REAL Soup-Nazi..." Yikes. Made me wonder how the

survivors and their families felt, especially with the association

to SOUP of all things-probably the only food they were given to eat

in the camps.

Yeah, I think use of the word Nazi is in rather poor taste. It conjures up one of the most horrifying--if not THE most horrifying-- events in modern history. I didn't initially think the term "soup nazi" was offensive, but since that episode was so good, we've heard lots more about him and the "real" soup nazi. Just some thoughts.... Susan

In [email](Gerald Vimont) writes:

(Susan

I have much more respect for people who are too easily offended then for people who are impossible to offend.

Think about it.

D. the T-man

In [email]

then

Well, your being offended by my being offended really offends me!!

Hmm... Offensensitivity (to quote Berke Breathed)

Hanson

I think yall need to chill on the diplomatic tip. Its a comedy (a good comedy) so enjoy it. People are always trying to make things deeper than they are. I though it was hillarious!!!!!

In article , [email] (Duncan Johnson) wrote:

IT'S OFFENSENSENSITIVITY!!!!

You're right. Why don't you and some friends form a committee and come up with all the words, actions, gestures, etc. that might offend someone. Maybe look to the former Soviet Union for some advice as to really do it right, their have to be some Stalinists still running around.

>He most certainly should be called the "Soup Nazi" because it paints

It's awfully easy to dismiss a discussion by imploring people just to lighten up or throwing around the now politically charged claim of political correctness to end an argument. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving thought and care to how we use our greatest tool, the language....

That said, I think that we shouldn't necessarily exclude Nazis and Hitler from the catalogue of What Can Be Joked About. There was a time, for about twenty years, when this subject was quite appropriately taboo for humor. (The old saying-- comedy is tradgedy plus time.) Then came the great comedy by Mel Brooks, "The Producers", with the muscial number, "Springtime for Hitler", and that rather broke the silence.

The term "Nazi" has become quite common to describe someone who is like the "Soup Nazi"-- imperious, dictatorial-- yet of course we all know that those qualities are only the window dressing for the pure evil of Naziism. Is it fair to throw the term around? To make the greatest villains of the twentieth century comic figures, like the Keystone Cops?

My two cents is it is fair comic fodder-- and perhaps jokes using the term Nazi always seem funnier because it is such a hoorific and taboo subject for comedy. It is interesting that comedy about Nazis and Hitler has often been considered property of Jewish comics-- like Mel Brooks, Lenny Brooks, and Seinfeld. The show's obsession with Nazis-- in this episode, and "The Limo" was what convinced me that it is irrelevant whether or not George was supposed to be Italian or Elaine Catholic, this will always be a Jewish sitcom by tradition and by its type of humor.

Shortly after this episode aired in November, "New York" Magazine did a very nice essay on this whole subject, and the Seinfeld controversy. (As you can imagine, the real Soup Guy was not pleased-- he makes no apologies for mistreating customers but that's hardly the same thing as exterminating millions of people, for Chrissake.) Anyway, the piece is worth looking up, if anyone is interested. Jennifer S. Dawson New York, NY 10011

(Jen Dawson) writes:

So, if I have this straight...to label the use of a word that some might take offense at as "politically correct" is politically incorrect...

twenty years, when this subject was quite appropriately taboo for humor.

     Please,please, someone post the address of the place that sells these
catalogues.I didn't know, for instance, that 20 years was the appropriate
time when this particular subject could be used in a humorous vein,
     Even better, if I had the phone number, or e-mail address of the
great and wise person who is kind enough to make these decisions for the
rest of us, I could call them whenever a question arose as to the
acceptability of a subject...

Thank You

          HF
"I don't have a photograph, but you can have my footprints.  They're
     upstairs in my socks."

Grocho Marx

High Flag writes:

catalogues.I didn't know, for instance, that 20 years was the appropriate time when this particular subject could be used in a humorous vein,<

I am not saying this is necassarily the appropriate time. I was speaking of the time that did, in fact, pass between the end of World War II and the first popular entertainment making light out of Nazis and the Holocaust occurred-- by my estimation, it was The Producers. There were some things during the war (To Be or Not to Be; Great Dictator) but I can't think of any comedy made about Nazis/the Holocaust after the war ended until about 1966, when The Producers came out.

I apologize if I sounded obtuse. I was just stating a fact, that in fact about 20 years passed after the Holocaust before comedians felt comfortable to joke about it. Can anyone think of any examples before The Producers?

(High Flag continues),

great and wise person who is kind enough to make these decisions for the rest of us, I could call them whenever a question arose as to the acceptability of a subject... <

Why do you insist on becoming defensive on this subject? These newsgroups are supposed to be democratic, and there's no reason to be threatened by discussions like this one. I haven't seen anyone on this newsgroup trying to impose their beliefs upon anyone else. I don't know why you have this political correctness fixation; there were a few people who wanted to have a thoughtful discussion about how we feel on this subject, and I don't think anyone every ventured to suggest how *you* should feel. We are all stating opinion. That many of our opinions differ should be no surprise. Being of two minds on this subject, I have sympathy for those who think Nazis are fair game for comedy and those who think the subject is too serious to treat lightly. I don't understand how all this hostility found its way into the argument.

But don't worry! In all your wild fantasies about Thought Police telling you what to think, no one ever said you weren't entitled to be hostile!

Jennifer S. Dawson New York, NY 10011

Jen Dawson wrote concerning the use of the phrase "Soup Nazi":

{giant snip}

{giant snip}

I don't see the connection between using the word Nazi to describe someone as acting like a dictator, and 'joking' about the Holocaust. I think that there is a big difference between the way they used Nazi, and a joke about the Holocaust. Even today, 51 years later, it would not be appropriate to 'joke' about the Holocaust.

If you changed your theory to read:

"About 20 years passed after World War 2 ended before comedians felt comfortable telling jokes referring to someone as a Nazi"

you might have a leg to stand on. But I'm not so sure that this was true.

Calloway wrote:

someone as acting like a dictator, and 'joking' about the Holocaust. I think that there is a big difference between the way they used Nazi, and a joke about the Holocaust. Even today, 51 years later, it would not be appropriate to 'joke' about the Holocaust.<

I more or less stand by my statement. I don't think you can separate Nazis from the Holocaust. I think there lies the question-- when we call someone a Nazi because they are acting rigid and dictatorial, is that appropriate, in that obviously the Crime of the Twentieth Century is not being rigid and dictatorial, but mass extermination of six million people? Obviously, on 'Seinfeld", the term was obviously meant to just refer to the Soup Guy as rigid and dictatorial. The person who began this thread (and I don't even remember who began it) felt that to use "Nazi" to lightly write someone off as rigid and dictatorial was to belittle the Nazis' greatest crime.

My feeling, as I stated a few messages ago, is that the word "Nazi" is fair game for comedy. But I think it would be irresponsible not to acknowledge the word's greater, and much more serious implications.

I think in "The Producers" Mel Brooks was quite clearly joking about the Holocaust. Two theatre producers want to make a sure-fire loser on Broadway. They create a musical called "Springtime for Hitler" about the horrors of the Third Reich. It is so hilariously bad and tasteless that it is taken to be witty and ironic and becomes a huge hit. I don't think there is any doubt that Brooks is using this stuff for comic fodder. It is meant to be tasteless, inappropriate, and very funny, and it is.

Look, to bring it back for Seinfeld, look at "The Limo" episode. White supremecists and neo-Nazis giving speeches about the "evils of the Jewish race?" This is very chilling stuff, and not exactly far removed from the horrors of the Holocaust, yet Seinfeld did a fine job of weaving a very funny episode around it. That was pretty edgy, clever stuff for network sitcom comedy.

Jennifer S. Dawson New York, NY 10011

Jen Dawson continues the discussion on the Soup Nazi :

Let me pose your question back to you, Do you think that using the word "Nazi" to describe someone who is acting rigid and dictatorial is inappropriate due to the fact that the Holocaust is not mentioned? Other terms from the same time period have also been used in this way, such as the gestapo.

I don't think there is any question that Seinfeld was using the word to describe the Soup man due to his rigid ways. He obviously was not exterminating people in N.Y. Lets pick another example of a group of people or a specific person and test this theory. The sports word is rife with fallen heros; lets pick one. Can I witness a fight and describe one fighter as "Moving with the speed, accuracy and power of Mike Tyson." without mentioning that the man went to prison for rape? Does this belittle the fact that a woman was raped? I don't see it that way.

In closing, the word Nazi describes a political party based on fascism. The fact that they murdered millions of Jewish people was only one of the many humanitarian crimes they committed. The word Nazi is not synonomous with The Holocaust.

In article , [email] says...

[..snip..]

I guess it all comes down to the question of the 'majority' or the 'morality'. True, there comes a time when all subjects can be approached with a little light humor. But the question is just how far that should go. It's a tough call. There will always be someone out there saying "Ah, get off it, it's funny."

"Springtime for Hitler" was a funny bit in "The Producers." I think they did a tasteful approach of it. "The Soup Nazi" started out OK, but IMHO I felt it was lingered on too much. Based on the storyline, I felt it would have been more appropriate to call him something else ("Soup Dictator", "Soup Sergeant", "Soup Sadist", etc.)

Again, my point was just to bring up the "other side". I still find the episode funny and one of the best. "Noooooo soup for you!"

-Gary K.

In article , [email] says...

Hmmm.... interesting. I haven't seen Nazi listed as anything other than the pronoun for the infamous German Political Party.

How about Soup Sergeant? Soup Dictator? Soup Meister?

I still think Nazi is not a word to be mixed with comedy... IMHO.

-Gary K.

In [email] (Gary

If

different

than

Then you must have hated Hogan's Heroes

(High Flag writes):

the horror attached to them.They are simply the common experience( the
widespread knowledge of the incidents) on which the humor is based.
     >The examples which I have chosen,and the Holocaust, are particular
events which all people with a sense of decency find repugnant, but there
are specific people who will find other topics, which the general populace
may take no notice of, equally hurtful.I would imagine, that there are
people who have bladder conditions, that find no humor whatsoever in
Poppy's little problem.
     >My argument, which was much shorter in my preferred method, is that
there is no acceptable means, nor justification, for setting a standard as
to how horrific, and to how many people, an incident, or subject must be,
before it becomes proper fodder for humor.Once an attempt is made, we
might as well outlaw comedy, altogether.
     >If a show, or a comedian consistently offends the audience,
eventually it will show in the ratings, or ticket sales.This is the most
effective, and only proper form of censorship, in my opinion...

         >There! I never used the PC phrase...  Now wasn't that boring?
                                                          HF<

Guess what HF-- I agree with you! No I wonder why we were arguing. Anyway, very well put.

(Calloway wrote:)

The fact that they murdered millions of Jewish people was only one of the many

humanitarian crimes they committed. The word Nazi is not synonomous with The Holocaust.<

I see your point, although I still think the two are inseparable in a way that Tyson's fighting and his alleged crimes are not. But in any case, we can agree to disagree.

Jennifer S. Dawson New York, NY 10011