Thread debates whether Elaine's controversial behavior stems from her evolving modern style and independence rather than promiscuity, with posters disagreeing about her character and age.
I do beleive the animosity being visited on Geroge's soon to be wife is caused not by her sexual appitite but by her radical style change. Elaine was never a member of the Moral Majority but this aspect of her was sownplayed by her girl next door with the Gibson Girl do.Elaine has redefined her personna by lowcut dresses,stark makeup & daring doos.
She is a lady of the 90s who no longer wants to sport the look of the Young Republicans.She took the Soup Nazi head on && chased himout of town. Elaine sets her own non-whitebread aggenda & is forthright in her demands for respect & attention.The old Elaine let Jerry ignore her after she was bitten by a dog the new Elaine would have given Jerry another bris if he tried that trick
Elaine is no more an incarnation of a modern, atypical, forceful woman than Pat Buchanan is represenative of the Isolationist Movement of Charles Linderbergh and the Post WWI Republican Party. While there may be similiarities, both Elaine and Mr. Buchanan take their respective personas to the absolute extreme and thus don't look much them at all. Elaine is simply cruel, arrogant, and unpleasant. This has nothing to do with Morals or the neo-conservative movement. Her sexual appetites are also indisputable. She bought 60 (SIXTY, SIX DOZEN, 50 + 10) sponges, she has a new boyfriend every time and she sleeps with them almost every time. She has no repeat partners, save Mr. Seinfeld, and none of her relationships lasts more than one episode (which at their most are a couple of days). The facts are indisputable: she excercises no practices of restraint. Defend her all you want, accuse Jerry of the same behavior all you want, you can't cover up the facts. Incidentally, George is marrying Susan and not Elaine and it is highly unlikely that Elaine and George will ever be involved since Elaine despises George.
"Don't you worry Mr. Simpson, I've argued in front of every judge in this state. Often as a lawyer."
A few of Elaine's boyfriends that I can think of lasted for more than one episode (Jake Jarmel, Tim Whatley, the psychiatrist and the Face Painter). Unlike all of Jerry's and George's affairs, in Elaine's case, I believe that there have been a few boyfriend breakups that were not chronicled on the show.
Just for the record, can someone list the boyfriends Elaine has had. I really don't remember her dating that many guys. I, of course support Elaine's right to have sex with whoever she wants, and not be insulted for it. However, it doesn't seem likely that the libertarian philosphy of leaving people alone if you don't like what they are doing is going to sweep over the newsgroup anytime soon, so I think we should address this question from the beginning. The only boyfriends I can remember, are the close talker (who was quite attractive, although close talking drives me nuts so I couldn't handle him) the old man, that she dated, the guy in the spongeworthy episode, and the boyfriend that she never actually had sex with. How many others have their been. At any rate I am sure she has dated and had sex less than both Jerry and George.
The psychiatrist that she went to Europe with. The dentist, Dr. Tim Whatley - the degifter The face painting mechanic, Mike Puddy who used the "Move" on her Joel Rivkind - the same name as the mass murderer A podiatrist (You're not a real doctor - You're only a podiatrist!) Jake Jarmel who broke up with her over JujyFruit The 'triangles' painter who had the operation where the Junior mint went inside. The one who dumps her after she 'acquires' the odor from Jerry's car Lloyd Braun - who worked for the failed Dinkins reelection campaign The one who overused exclamation points Crazy Joe DaVola The Communist The Sax Player
I'm sure that there are others.
She also went on dates with "The Jimmy" and the guy who ordered the mechanical pencil for her which she did not pick up.
Why do you think Elaine is cruel? (I might have missed the first part of this discussion?) I wouldn't get so excited about the amount of sponges she bought either - as they say, better safe than sorry. If men found out that condoms were being discontinued they'd probably stock up too. She was probably hoping these would last her a lifetime! Sounds fair to me. (I know some women who wish they did just what Elaine did.)
I was watching Seinfeld and Elaine was talking about some women who dropped a picture of her diafram in front of some guy. I am young. What is a diafram?
Her sexual appetites are also indisputable. She bought 60 (SIXTY, SIX DOZEN, 50 + 10) sponges, she has a new boyfriend every time and she sleeps with them almost every time.
Elaine is a character. It moves to story along to have her with a different man all the time. Why don't we discuss how Jerry is a slut who sleeps with women selected on "shallow" criteria?
Can't remember the exact quote, but a few weeks ago when Jerry was trying to date the woman who had sideswiped his car, he said she had everything the shallow man wants.
woman. Even George got lucky from time to time (Remember the episode with George hiring the "ugly" secretary? That role alone must have Vikki Lewis her job on "Newsradio" as Beth) before he got engaged with Susan.
Very colorful. But your argument is very emotional, not factual. Yes, we see her seduce and sleep with some men, but not always. There are definitely men she turns away. I wouldn't say she's a slut, based on this. No restraint? C'mon! Don't you remember how hard a time she gave the guy before she slept with him? He had to pass a rigorous test. She got EXTREMELY picky once she noticed her sponge supply was non-replenishable. Yes, Pat Buchanan takes things to an extreme (that's why he'll NEVER be president [mark my words]), but Elaine does not, so an analogy of the two doesn't apply. Ocassionally she'll act out, a little slutty over some guy, but sometimes she's conservative. Watch a few more episodes.
Yes, I agree that she'll never date George. George would probably date her, just because he finds her attractive and he's self centered, not concerned with how that would affect their relationship. But that day will only be in his wildest dreams!
here, but if Elaine is a slut than what word can we use for Kramer or Jerry or George? I've mentioned this before about the sponge episode, but it bears repeating - what if suddenly condoms were in short supply? Wouldn't most men buy as many as possible? And about Pat Buchanan not being president - Good Lord I hope not! Kramer would make a better president!
The thing I don't get, is why people would say it is wrong for Elaine to have sex. If she wants to do it, and is doing it with a consenting adult, what is wrong with it? Our society's hatred of the human sexual act, disgusts me. We have taken something that is beautiful and pleasurable, and have corrupted it, made it seem disgusting. And this corruption comes not from promiscious people but from the sanctimonious people that denounce sex. If you don't like other people's sex lives that is your business, but you shouldn't go around calling people sluts. Lack of respect for our fellow man and unwillingness to stay out of their lives are a lot bigger problem than sex could ever be. As for Buchanan, he really isn't that bad, if you listen to his speeches in the original German they sound quite reasonable.
There's nothing wrong with Elaine having sex. We never said there was. It's just that we have seen her appetite on the excessive side. Women who sleep around with multiple men are "sluts", men who do this are "studs." (Don't get me wrong--I think "stud=slut". It's not a compliment in my book).
Hatred of the human sexual act? Where the heck are you coming from? I don't think any of us implied that. Calling someone a slut means they're into the "act" for the raw, indiscriminate, physical pleasure of it. This is also someone who'll likely contract AIDS.
I think you're going a bit on the extreme here. The criticism of Elaine's sexual activity could be akin to commenting on someone's clothing taste. If you walk around in dirty torn T-shirts, people will criticize you. Having frequent sex with people who hardly know is "not cool." Especially if you want to remain disease free. But I *did* like your Buchanan comment!
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Oops... now I know where you're coming from. <G>
There's nothing wrong with Elaine having sex. We never said there was. It's just that we have seen her appetite on the excessive side.
Exactly how many men has Elaine had sex with, not just dated or slept in the same bed with ?
Hatred of the human sexual act? Where the heck are you coming from? I don't think any of us implied that. Calling someone a slut means they're into the "act" for the raw, indiscriminate, physical pleasure of it.
You're using a different definition of "slut" than most people, I think. If being a slut mean that you're into the animal nature of sex, then by your def, you can be a monogamous slut. I don't think most people would agree with that. Also, assuming you take "slut" to be a perjorative, then it seems you think that enjoying sex for its raw, physical elements is wrong. That's where the "hatred of the human sexual act" part comes in.
Jumping in again on this - As a woman I just want to point out that someone who enjoys sex should NOT be called a slut. I don't think the original writer meant it this way so I don't want to jump all over his case, but being called a slut is a pretty awful thing. I think that's why so many people responded the way they did.
Well, I really have never seen Elaine be excessively sex crazed. She is a strong willed independent woman, who has sex because she enjoys it. If she had sex because she was desperate and believed it was the only way she could ever be in a relationship with a man, then I would agree that she had a problem. But if she is actually doing it because she enjoys it, then what is wrong with her doing it.
What is wrong with doing it for the raw, indiscriminate, pleasure of it. I personally don't go for that, I believe that is what masturbation is for. But I don't have a problem with other people having sex for pure physical pleasure. It is their business, and if they find something they enjoy they have the right to do it. Of course there is the risk of AIDS or other sexually transmitted diseases, but all good things in life carry risk with them. And we really don't know how far Elaine goes to protect herself from AIDS, but the fact that she is very conscious of birth control, suggest to me that she would also be careful in avoiding STD's.
Well, really I don't think you have any business complaing if you don't like someone's clothing. The only time it is truly appropriate to criticize others, is when they are interferring with your or someone else's rights to life, liberty, and property. If you criticize people who aren't hurting you or anyone else, then you are just pushing your beliefs on others and are harming them for no good reason. As for your comment that frequent sex with people you don't know is not cool, well I happen to agree with you, but that isn't the point, the point is that Elaine having sex with various men doesn't hurt anyone, and therefore she has the right to do it without being insulted. The way you or I or anyone else feel about it isn't the point, it is none of our business, it is Elaine's business and the guys she is sleeping with.
Well, I was supporting Forbes, but since he dropped out Dole is now my man. I would actually prefer a Libertarian candidate, but I am not willing to use up my vote on a person that will be lucky to get a million votes. Besides it is so awesome being a Republican, I love being a member of the party of evil. Peace, love, and corporate profits.
Part of what "living in a society" is all about involves human interaction. People share each other's opinions. If Elaine sleeps around with every guy she winds up dating, she runs the risk of STD's, even if she uses a sponge. The most effective way to reduce STD's is with a condom. OK, fine, she can live any lifestyle she chooses. But what if she DOES contract AIDS? What about the next guy she sleeps with? Where's the responsibility to human life? That's what I feel is wrong with this, ultimately. Yes, you take a risk everytime you sleep with someone, but if they project a visage of someone who is low risk but could be higher risk (like Elaine), then that is deception out of ignorance.
Party of evil? I'm not a Republican, but I wouldn't call them evil. Maybe a little misguided. ;^)
Yes, but it is one thing to get the opinion of a person when you ask them for it, it is quite another to force your opinion on someone else. It is the difference between having an open discussion on different religion and having some religious fundamentalist screaming at you that you are going to go to hell. And yes, there is risk to promiscous sex. Everything that is good in life comes with risk, and yes Elaine could spread an std to someone else, but she is not forcing them to have sex with her. It is their choice to do it, the converse of freedom is always responsibilty. And if you run the risk of having sex with someone that you don't know that well, then quite frankly you get what you deserve. Both parties are equally responsible for the spreading of stds, if you don't know a person well enough to know that he or she won't lie to you, and you can't force your partner to wear a condom, then you have to decide is the risk of an std worth having sex. If you get an std, you have no one to blame but yourself. That is the best thing about freedom it is its own reward, and it is its own punishment.
Yeah, I know. Truthfully, there really isn't that much difference between Republicans and Democrats. A few minor things here and there, but nothing that is truly signifigant, at least not compared to the political parties of other countries. But as the saying goes, God is in the details. And it is the details that make me a Republican. Besides I like the evil reputation and try to encourage it, even if I know it really isn't true. Peace, love, and corporate profits.
Brendan, I promised myself I would NOT say anything about the Dole/Republican comments - this is, after all, a newsgroup about Seinfeld - but I tried and couldn't keep quiet. As a democrat, I must say that there most definately IS a big difference between Republicans and Democrats. (I also believe that Elaine, Jerry, George and Kramer are probably all Democrats. Newman, however, would be a different story altogether.) for World Peace and
Really, what would that difference be? Democrats and Republicans are both politicians who have to answer to diverse constituents. They both want to get reelected and they both think that they know what is best for the country. Look at Clinton and Dole, both have a plan to balance the budget, from what I have heard the plans sound fairly similiar, there isn't much real difference there. The difference between Republicans and Democrats is pretty much semantics. Above all else politicians will do what their voters (and certain special interests) want them to do. That means lowering taxes, raising spending without looking like they are doing it, and spouting a lot of impressive rhetoric that doesn't actually mean anything. Neither Dole or Clinton has any elaborate schemes that will radically alter this country, Clinton isn't going to radically raise taxes or cripple industry, Dole isn't going to starve little children or throw the elderly out into the streets. There are differences, but they really aren't important, they don't really mean anything. Realistically how much does governemnt directly affect our lives? And I think the characters know this because they rarely make political statements, I could accept Elaine as a Democrat, I don't think Kramer has any interest in politics (other than his brief flirtation with communism) George is the perfect politician in that he will adopt any position, he has no problem dating Nazis or Communists, George should really run for public office. And as for Jerry, how can politics compare to Superman. Of the four, only Elaine seems really political. That would make a good episode though, to see their political beliefs, but I doubt Jerry or George would have the guts to challange Elaine, since she would undoubtedly shout them down. Anyway, if it bothers you to discuss politics on the newsgroup, feel free to email me, although due to my screwed up email, I prefer to discuss these things on the newsgroups directly. Peace, love, corporate profits, and a Republican victory in 1996.
I think Elaine is great. She's just a healthy, single, outgoing female. If you believe folks shouldn't sleep together, fine, that's your opinion. You're welcome to your beliefs. You should perhaps rent the movie Sister Act if you want to watch women who have other inclinations (Whoopi excepted of course). I get very tired of people dictating morals. If good old Pat Buchanan got elected you can be sure he would crack down on all the sluts and studs in this country -plus gays, environmentalists, gun haters, freedom of choicers, etc. Why can't you live and let live. Judge Elaine as a person, not who she sleeps with. Is that how you judge all your friends - by the number of people they have slept with? Bob D
My point is, if there is no male equivalent, then the word should not be part of our language - there is no male equivalent to the word 'slut' at least none that carry the same stigmatism. Up until now, we'd call a guy a 'Romeo' or something like that. If Elaine is a slut then so are Jerry, George and Kramer. But again, I haven't noticed anyone in this Newsgroup commenting on commented on the male characters' sexual activities. Yes, we comment on George's occasionally idiotic, insensitive behavior and Kramer's goofiness, but I have yet to hear anyone say anything negative about the fact that they do - indeed - sleep with practically every woman they date.
Why, those guys are SLUTS!!! Why is "slut" a feminine-associated word? Because it's always been used in relation to women? As of today, I now delcare "slut" a WORD and CAN BE USED in relation to the male kingdom. Such as, "that Tom cat is out slutting around".
Thanks Lori, I agree. From today forward, men can and should be labeled as sluts - that is, if women are. Or, we can just stop using that offensive word altogether. :)
Why, those guys are SLUTS!!! Why is "slut" a feminine-associated word? Because it's always been used in relation to women? As of today, I now delcare "slut" a WORD and CAN BE USED in relation to the male kingdom. Such as, "that Tom cat is out slutting around".
Let me be the first to use the word in its newly expanded context. Jerry is a big time slut, just look at all the women he's slept with. In fact, given how many women he's been with and the fact that he's never once mentioned using any form of protection (he even turned down Kramer's coloured condoms), I think it would be safe to guess that Jerry is by now HIV+. And god only knows how many women he's infected with his whoring around. Tom Selleck/Richard, Dean Cain/ Clark Kent, and all those other guys who've been with Jerry's ex'es better get themselves tested. I'll bet Jerry's even got some kids he doesn't know about yet.
The problem is that most men would be proud to be labeled a slut. I know I would have loved to have been labeled a slut when I was young and single.
I'll believe it when I start hearing guys calling themselves and their sons "sluts" on a regular basis. "Tommy's really become such a fine young slut - a chip off the old block."
Well, I defended Elaine, now as a believer in equal oppurtunity I feel compelled to defend Jerry. First of all Jerry, Elaine, and George have all slept with about the same number of people, so because of that, they are either all sluts (if you are a sanctimonious person who feels the need to impose your narrow minded morality on people who aren't hurting you) or they are all mature adults who enjoy having sex and engage in it with willing partners whenever they can (not that there is anything wrong with that). I prefer to go with the second explanation, because I tend not to like the kind of people that would argue the first, and I don't want to become one of them. Now as for your point about Jerry spreading diseases around, first of all, while it can happen, male heterosexuals that don't use drugs are not at an enormous risk for AIDS. If you want to argue that he has gonorrhea or herpes, I would be more inclined to agree with you on that, and for all we know, he (or anyone else on the show) might have contracted one of the lesser STDs, which can be treated or cured. But at any rate that would probably not be shown, because while I'm sure you could find something humorous about gonorhea, but people would probably think it was in bad taste. (Then again they had Nazis on the show, so who knows) And as for your comment about Jerry whoring around, all those woman had the option to say no. We have the freedom to have sex with consenting adults, but the converse of freedom is responsibilty. They could have turned him down. As for the remark about protection, well maybe Jerry just knew from experience that anything Kramer brought you was trouble (and he was obviously correct in that case, the condoms were defective) Besides as far as I know the sponge is only a method of birth control and offers no protection against stds, so Elaine is being just as short sighted as Jerry. We should all just leave the main characters sex lives alone, they have the right to have sex with whoever will agree to do it with them, the people they have sex with have the right to insist they use protection. Everyone should just leave everyone else alone.
Brendan W. Guy
Sorry if I sound like a bastard in this message, my entire body is totally sunburned so I am in kind of a bad mood.
Brenden, I couldn't agree with you more about minding one's own business about other people's sexual activities and/or preferences ('Not that there's anything wrong with that') and yes, if Elaine is a 'slut' so is everyone else on the show. However, my main problem with all the sexual activity and fun on the show is that it makes my life seem woefully boring and uneventful. Elaine and co. have so much more fun that I do! It's depressing.
Well, Blo, if you're referring to Teri Hatcher when you say Dean Cain/Clark Kent should be worried, you're wrong. Jerry never 'got' Teri/Cidra. In fact, it was a major point of the episode that he never even got to feel her breasts. Plus, um, aren't we talking about FICTIONAL characters, here?
This is an interesting point, terms that come to mind include "lech" (short for lecher), "satyr", and the ever popular "lothario". None of these seem as vulgar as "slut".
Btw, to those who argue that Elaine merely has a lifetime's worth of sponges, doesn't the effectiveness of nonoxynol-9 (the active spermicide in Today sponges last time I checked) expire at some point in time after manufacture?
Mark "it's just a show, I should really just relax" Mellin
Very colorful. But your argument is very emotional, not factual. Yes, we see her seduce and sleep with some men, but not always. There are definitely men she turns away. I wouldn't say she's a slut, based on this. No restraint? C'mon! Don't you remember how hard a time she gave the guy before she slept with him? He had to pass a rigorous test. She got EXTREMELY picky once she noticed her sponge supply was non-replenishable. Yes, Pat Buchanan takes things to an extreme (that's why he'll NEVER be president [mark my words]), but Elaine does not, so an analogy of the two doesn't apply. Ocassionally she'll act out, a little slutty over some guy, but sometimes she's conservative. Watch a few more episodes.
Yes, I agree that she'll never date George. George would probably date her, just because he finds her attractive and he's self centered, not concerned with how that would affect their relationship. But that day will only be in his wildest dreams!
Don't forget that Elaine is buying the 60 sponges to cover the rest of her life! A slut would never have sex only 60 times from age 35 (?) until death. In contrast, Jerry's perfect date in the Spongeworthy ep had an entire closet full of sponges. If Elaine is a slut, that woman must be planning to bed the entire US Navy. In addition, saying that Elaine despises George ignores many moments in the show where they are genuinely friendly. Obviously, there have been episodes depicting limitations in their friendship. I think she tolerates George and is amused by George and his weaknesses, but still considers him a close friend with flaws. I think her attitude about George has gotten worse ever since "The Opposite", which probably started Elaine's irritability over the path her life is taking in contrast to the upswing in George's. She can't despise him because she probably would refuse to be around him as much as she is, no matter how close she is to Jerry.