SEINFELD = ANTI-IRISH BIGOTS

I brought up this issue the last time this ep aired in the US, though I didn't use the above subject line; I said "Why Irish names for the Nazis?"

The writers could have very easily used German or generic WASPy names for the Nazis but no, they chose distinctly, unmistakably Irish names. You don't just pull a name out of the air and get Colin Murphy or John O'Brien. You get names like Susan Ross and Tim Whatley and the names of the people who work for the Yankees - Whitman, Logan, etc. J. Peterman. Mr. Pitt. All generic names. Then you have other names which are probably the names of friends of the writers. I bet Art Vandelay and Bob Saccamano are friends of Larry David or Jerry Seinfeld. And Mr. Bevelacqua is probably the name of one of their gym teachers.

Excuuuuse me for being upset that the writers slandered Irish people and Irish Americans. There is absolutely no reason why the Nazis had to have Irish names.

At least in the episode that upset Japanese people they had the television executive who saw right through the crap George was trying to sell.

Two things. First of all, wasn't it Jerry and George that were going on about Ireland? If i'm not mistaken, that was before they realized that they werre impersonating leaders of a Neo-Nazi org. They were just playing up the Irish thing to fit into their characters. It was NOT a cpommentary on the Irish being Anti-semetic.

On a different note, i am begining to take offence at the statements about Germans being the ones who gassed the Jews. Having a Jewish father and a German mother, i think i canbe fairly objective here. Germans were not resposible for the autrocities of WW2, NAZI's were. Big difference. That's as dangerous as blaming all Japanese for Pearl Harbor or all Americans for Hiroshima.

The Nazi's came to power in Germany. They were supported and embraced by the German populous. 99% of Nazi's were German. This doesn't mean all Germans are bad people, but don't tell me they are not responsible for the holocaust. Get your head out of the clouds and stick it in a history book.

[email] (Amanda Dorter) wrote:

On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 [email] wrote:

If 99% of Nazis were German, does that mean that 99% of Germans were Nazi? Me thinks not.

Nazis responsible, not Germans.

impersonating the rightful rider. That was O'Brien I think.

You know, it's reeeeely simple. If you don't like what you're watching... now listen children....TURN OFF THE T.V.!!! Now THERE'S an idea!! OOOOOOO..

[email] wrote:

Perhaps they should get together with the guys who think Seinfeld ridicules Japanese Men. They contradict each other when they both claim the show singles out only [insert your group here] for ridicule.

Remember: If you single out everyone for ridicule your are singling out no one.

Also: Was anyone upset with Uncle Leo's portrayal as a Jew who blames _everyone_ for being an anti-semite? Of course not. Do know why? Because its a joke!

In Steven Eccles writes:

I think you're reading *way* too much into it. The episode was meant to say something about ant-Semitism, and do it in a funny way. Nobody was accusing the Irish of causing WW2.

In Steven Eccles writes:

And then some stupid yank wrote:

What the hell does that mean? I saw that episode here on Channel 4 in England with my girlfreind who's family is from Ireland (I am Jewish of Czech background) and we were sick to our stomachs. I sorry mate, but that episode went out of its way to paint the Irish as leaders of the Nazi world movement. Perhaps the writers of the episode were too in love with their BMW's and Mercs. to blame the Germans, so they thought it would be "real cute fellas" to pin the blame for the Holocaust on the Irish.

Let me tell you moron, there was nothing "funny" about what happened in Germany 50 years ago. Of all the races in the world I know the Irish are the least anti-semitic people, fact.

What the hell is wrong with you Americans.

In article ,

I'm a bit lost here. I've seen the episode in question, and don't get the Irish connection. Was it the name? But then again, Seinfeld is never renowned for accuracy when it comes to politics. The worst example of this is when Kramer thinks he has met Salman Rushdie in the gym, and takes as a piece of evidence that the man in question had spent a lot of time in the Middle East. For Christ's sake, Rushdie is from Bombay and lived in London! Nonetheless, I consider Seinfeld to be hilarious, and the only US comedy that can even compre to British classics like Blackadder. I just can't figure out why it's not popular in Ireland or Britain.

Tony

"The lunatic...doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else...You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars"

I didn't either, Anthony, though I admit it's been months since I saw that episode. I'd have to see it again to be sure. The only thing I noted about the names Murphy and Fitzgerald is that they are arch-Jewish "goy" names (stereotypically), meant to play off Jerry's religion. I didn't think it had to do with Irishness as much as it had to do with plain Xianity in general--the standard denomination(s) of neo-nazis in N. America. The names seemed intended only to signal the fact that Murphy and Fitz (in our assuming minds) were definitey not Jewish. "Murphy" as a name, BTW (to the Irish and English fellows who were up in arms over a *troll*), has lost its Irishness over here in N. America--that is, it doesn't necessarily equate to Erin roots anymore--it's one of those N. American "mutt" names, now, after so many generations on this side of the pond (I can say that, I have one of those mutt names myself!). In fact, I always took Murphy to be more on the Scottish side? <shrug> In Canada, anyway.

I'm still responding to you, Anthony, and not to the *obvious* troll who posted the original statement. I'm curious, too. Is it an actual *fact* that Seinfeld didn't catch on in the Isles (Emerald and otherwise), or are you just going by the thread? I'd think it would be one of the few American sitcoms worth importing--let alone worth watching. It's such an original. I hope somebody in the know can answer our question.

Scribbler

WHAT??????????????

The yank will be equating Heuy Lewis and the News to the Sex Pistols next.

Is it true that Seinfeld trashed Asian-Americans too?

Maybe we can join the two ethnic groups together and start a massive boycott of the programs sponsors.

Also I would like the names of the writers and the producers of the Seinfeld episodes that attacked the Irish and Asians if anybody knows them.

These names will be published on the Internet along with the various corporate sponsors involved in underwriting this ethnic-bashing.

The reponse to this issues has been huge among Irish-Americans.

I would like to hear from Asian-Americans and see if we can start a massive international boycott to deal with this racist filth once and for all and to spare other ethnic groups the same fate.

Oh my.

Well, as a Canadian, I must say (while we're at it), that if we're to protest this sort of thing, we *have to* bombard the writers/producers and actors (yes! they who without conscience *uttered* the foul remarks!) of Mad About You, which deliberately sets out to belittle the Canadian people every few episodes, like fine clockwork! A smack across my cheek every time I'm subjected to such a retort!

<shaking with righteous anger in Ottawa> Scribbler

In article , [email] says...

You know what's funny? I never seem to see any of the shows accused of such things... Guess I have better taste in TV than I thought!

Susan - occassional Sour Kraut, and proud of it!

Scribbler wrote:

Yeah, and what about that Seinfeld episode about the Latvian Orthodox church! Latvians were blocking traffic all over mid-town Manhattan around NBC headquarters with pickets and human chains, wearing those neat hats. Mayor Giuliani declared a state of emergency.

And how about when Italians were all up in arms over the portayal of Poppy, the incontinent Italian restaurant owner. I understand President Clinton was forced to apolgize on behalf of the American people to the Italian prime minister to avoid an international incident.

And when Bapu was deported back to Pakistan due to Jerry's negligence, how about that debate in the U.N. about it? Talk about bringing us to the brink of war!

Shameful, just shameful. Is no ethnic group safe anymore?

I think we ought to enlist Jackie Childs's help on this, in case there's any money in it.

Err totally off the topic, its Jackie Chiles. :)

r.

[email] (Russell Davies) wrote:

So sue me! :-)

ROFL--at least someone sees the light <g>

Scrib

Lighten up--it's just a tv show!

On Mon, 02 Dec 1996 02:31:10 -0600, Brent Madden wrote:

Yeah no kidding. Jerry Seinfeld is jewish and he's made fun of Jewish people on a few episodes. I really don't think the writers have anything against any one ethnic group. It's just what is funny and the ratings don't lie. I happen to be english and I have seen Jerry make fun of english people but do I give a toss NO! Because it's all in good humour. It's funny!

David

[email] (David Shepherd) wrote:

Doesn't it make you wonder what these people are doing watching Seinfeld if they have no sense of humor??

What's next?? Impotent men complaining about porno films?? Starving people complaining about cooking shows??

Jeff Tremble - will program for food, coffee, net access.

T-H-I-S
I-S
A
T-V
S-H-O-W !!!

Not the freaking United Nations or the The Pentagon...U Don't like ? U don't have to watch..Get It.. ??

In article , "Mr. Clean" wrote:

OK. I'm Japanese-American, and I'm married to a Chinese-American. I suppose I could watch an episode of Seinfeld and think that all Chinese are callous restauranteurs with little grasp of English and even less grasp of manners. Yes, I suppose we could all think that...if we were all morons. Yes, that episode showed a cultural stereotype--but one that's commonly true if you walk into many Chinese restaurants and grocery stores. All Chinese restaurants and grocery stores? No, hardly. But I think I can watch a Seinfeld episode and know that not all Chinese restaurants are like that, and that some are. And I can laugh because it was pretty funny regardless.

Do we have to tailor every TV show to make sure the stupidest people on the planet don't get the wrong idea?

I don't mean that we should just let every TV show do racist jokes. I just mean that I don't see any problem of showing cultural stereotypes if they're reasonably accurate. If they show an Irish pub with lots of rowdy drunks who want to pick fights, well, what's the problem? I still understand that my supervisor, whose name is O'Riordan, is a fine, fine gentleman.

I mean, isn't it nonsense that someone with a last name like Tanaka can tell a funny joke about Japanese tourists with cameras around their necks, but someone with a last name like Kozlowski can't?

-- Forrest TANAKA "Rook, Rook! It's Godzirra!"

Big agreement. I think it might be worthwhile to point out (since this thread has taken on a life of its own, and at time is taking itself *way* too seriously, considering the source), that as far as the Chinese Maitre D' goes, I took it to be a stereotype of Chinese restaurants *in NYC*--of restaurants in NYC, period. The "ethnic" race which gets the most poking in Seinfeld is, after all, the New Yorker. The Long Islander--"You gotta come and see the BAY-by!", the parents from Queens--the Costanzas, parents from hell. Come on guys. Jerry, Elaine and George are the biggest jokes in the show. The New Yorker is constantly being jabbed, whether it's the Jewish one, the Italian, the Yuppie...the show contains nothing *but* stereotypes...it's what makes it so irreverent. I have to wonder how satire can go over so many heads, or how righteous indignation can be so selective...

Scribbler

Scribbler wrote:

Yes! There's one other person in this thread who likes Seinfeld for the same reason I do!

Steve

Make that two!

And three!

"Believing that the British Government has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland, and never can have any right in Ireland, the presence in any one generation of Irishmen, of even a respectable minority, ready to die to affirm that truth, makes that Government for ever a usurpation and a crime against human progress" James Connolly, Commandant-General, Dublin Division, Army of the Irish Republic, May 9, 1916.

Sienfeld pokes fun at....all it's what the show is about if you are Irish take it in stride we can stand a bit of bashing for comedys sake everyone else on Seinfeld takes some bashing as well.

And while youare at it check out the SINN FEIN home page at http://indigo.ie/~saoirse/index.html

Yeggster.

In article , "Mr. Clean" wrote:

Lighten up man it's just a sitcom, there was nothing offensive in that episode at all.The writers of the show have always written in jokes that could have potentially angered certain groups but never stretched it that far.....example.....the gay episode,,,,that was so well done and did not offend anyone!!!!!!!!!

Considering that the writers of nearly all american sitcom's are Jewish homosexuals somehow this does not surprise me one bit.

Jerry and his young girlfreind � smoke and mirrors maybe?

"Mr. Clean" wrote:

Funny, I haven't met any of them, and I happen to be one.

Well, we all need a hobby.

In article ,

Please, just because I post from the US does not mean I am a "yank". Actually, I am Irish and stand by my claim: Seinfeld can be as funny as the best of British comedy. And I say this as a major fan of British comedy.

Tony

"The lunatic...doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else...You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars"

In article , [email] says...

compre to British classics like Blackadder.

ROFL!

Susan

Didn't they both do comeback tours this year?

Well, in the UK at least we had it on BBC2 (arts, news, general special interest viewing), and it was on Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 11:30pm. Hence, it was never going to have a big audience. I think though as BBC2 goes it had a fairly respectable following.

Personally, I didn't think it was absolutly wonderful, but a hell of an improvement on "Friends" and "Frasier" (Ugh!). We didn't have a moral shoved down out throats every other minute, and, most importantly, it was actually funny.

Now Larry Sanders, he WAS funny...

Shell

Scribbler wrote: :

:

The last time I visited my relations in Belfast (in 1994) I tried to get my aunt and uncle to watch Seinfeld, which they'd never heard of previously (I spotted it myself in the listings). After about twenty minutes of the show, and of stone-faced silence on their part, I asked them what they thought of it. "Well," my uncle said, "It's kind of cold, isn't it?" Actually, I suppose it is, though I'd never thought about it that way. The show that was most popular with them at that time was "Red Dwarf", which is a different kind of humour altogether -- silly, a little childish but very endearing, which would also characterize shows like "Mr. Bean", or describe the brief "Mr. Blobby" craze. US humour by contrast tends to run to extremes either of revolting saccharine blandness (as in most sitcoms) or of incisive and often cruel wit (Seinfeld, The Simpsons, sometimes even Beavis and Butthead). It's interesting that a nation so often characterized (by Europeans particularly) as anti-intellectual produces as much intelligent satire as it does.

le meas,

Neil A. McEwan

I have to scratch my head alongside you on that one. I would think that a nation(s) which adores Ab/Fab and Pythons would appreciate the bite of the best Yankee sitcoms. It's odd. I can only venture a guess that perhaps too much goes over their heads when it comes to Seinfeld, Simpsons and Frazier (ie) because of the cultural references...that is, all too often, domestic shows make in-jokes aimed at domestic audiences, whether sitcoms or britcoms, using politics/headlines du jour which may not be known across the pond. IMO this could be part of it.

Scribbler

I just hasn't caught on in Britain and Ireland. I know it's shown on late nights on either Channel 4 or BBC2 in Britain, and certainly has not taken off as much as more mundane US sitcoms (such as Friends) has. I don't get it: Seinfeld is so original, and hilarious.

Tony

"The lunatic...doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else...You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars"

It is. Watching it I'm always reminded of Albee's plays, for some reason. Larry David (tho he left after last season, I believe) sure had a similar ear for real dialogue. IMO, the characters on that sitcom are the only *real-life* people ever to appear in the genre. Warts and all, so to speak.

Scribbler

Anthony M Annett wrote:

Nah. "Dream On" is far superior!

Rob.

Tony,

May I add a word of support?

I remember that episode and cannot recall the Irish connection. It certainly couldn't have been offensive. It seems to me that episode ran about 4, maybe 5, years ago. This seems like a very late date to start complaining. But really, the Irish Nazi slant made no impression on me!

Jim

In article , [email] says...

Simple. Our television writers are idiots. Look at some of the crap that comes out of my country (I am of the opinion that I really don't belong here!); Baywatch - more commonly known as Buttwatch or Boobwatch, Melrose Place - AKA Melrose PUKE, every other Aaron Spelling show in existance...come to think of it, Aaron Spelling is to blame for about 50% of bad American TV, I mean, he dressed his own daughter in hot pant shorts to put the Christmas tree topper on resulting a serious wedgie JUST TO GET RATINGS!

I myself am very picky about what I watch. I like the British shows that we get here (Are You Being Served, Monty Python, Mr. Bean, Black Adder, etc.), certain cartoon series, and some learning shows (nature, home improvement, history, etc.). There are a few good prime time shows, it's not all bad. "Pearl" is good...they alleded to the Scots awhile back where the stuffy professor's charismatic brother, who he hates, shows up with their father's ashes. They end up reconcilling, dressing in full Scottish attire (great notes taken that night!), sang songs, and and toasted their father at midnight. "The Nanny"is pretty funny, too. I have to say I never liked Seinfeld. Matter of fact, I've never liked any shows that have had so much hype made of them. If a show is truly good, it doesn't need it. Thank the heavens for specialized cable channels.

Susan

[email] (Susan Rankin) wrote:

Considering that Baywatch is far more popular in Europe than it is here, what does that say about European tastes. As for what's on TV, isn't yours equipped with an on-off switch?

That's nice. Yawn.

Ummmmmmm....the show being "truly good" is what generates the hype. Duhhhh.

Mr. Clean spewed forth the following dribble:

[snip a lot of complete tosh]

) What the hell does that mean? I saw that episode here on Channel 4 in ) England with my girlfreind who's family is from Ireland (I am Jewish of ) Czech background) and we were sick to our stomachs. I sorry mate, but ) that episode went out of its way to paint the Irish as leaders of the ) Nazi world movement. Perhaps the writers of the episode were too in love ) with their BMW's and Mercs. to blame the Germans, so they thought it ) would be "real cute fellas" to pin the blame for the Holocaust on the ) Irish.

Ever heard of 'taking the piss'? The joke isn't on the Irish, it's on you because you have no sense of humour and are too touchy.

) What the hell is wrong with you Americans.

Most Americans are fine people (and they make great comedy shows). What is wrong with you should be the question. Now get back under that rock you crawled out from under.

Mel.

In article , [email] says...

Let's all consider one important thing here. We, as Americans, have never felt the agony and scarring of foreign invasion/war (Pearl Harbor excepted) on our soil. We are wrong in thinking that Europeans don't have every right to be as sensitive as they are or may be about such a topic as WWII. Jerry Seinfeld showed great lack of judgement in his writing by not considering the effects of a show that is syndicated world-wide. What if the targetted group had been black, jewish, hispanic, italian, or what-have-you? Just because something might actually be considered funny here in America, doesn't mean it would or should be funny somewhere else.

Susan

On 1 Dec 1996, Susan Rankin wrote:

No invasion? How 'bout: The War of 1812?, The Revoluionary War?

In article ,

True enough. Heck, we came down from Upper Canada and burned down the White House, 180+ years before ID4! :)

NOT an invasion. This was terrorism that escalated the guerrilla war, that further escalated to revolution. There were no "invaders" -- just Brits trying (and failing) to hold on to their territory.

In article , [email] (Susan Rankin) said:

True.

Not true. It was over fifty years ago. Being sensitive about the re-emergence of the same sorts of idiocy that led to the Long War (WWI, intermission and WWII) is one thing, being knee-jerk sensitive about the whole topic is quite another.

[email] (Susan Rankin) wrote:

• They're writing for an American audience.

2) As Jerry Seinfeld is Jewish, I think he probably knows a bit a about the history of the Jewish people in WWII.

3) Most Europeans, I would guess, got the humor from it and weren't offended. For those who didn't, well you can't please everybody.

Now, what the hell does THAT mean????

No kidding. Really? Jeez, I bet Jerry SEINFELD didn't know that.

Fact from where?

It's called humor. If you would come out from under your anti-American, ultra-PC umbrella, you might understand.

"Mr. Clean" wrote:

Nothing is wrong with us. Something is wrong with you when you read something into *nothing* (after all, the show's about nothing). The characters may have had Irish names, but they were Americans. Now lighten up and worry about something important.

And for your information, Jerry Seinfeld, Jason Alexander and Julia Louis-Dreyfus are all Jewish (Michael Richards is not Jewish). Complain to them.

DAMN! I missed this episode. please,please, please send me a copy as it sounds like a scream. Especially since there's some sad 'plastic paddy' looking for attention! PS. Seinfeld is becoming more popular here in the UK

Marcus Clery

Um, we have a sense of humor? GET OVER IT! Jeesh.

Brenda

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Marcus Clery wrote:

In article GODSTAR writes:

No kidding! If it bothers you so much, DON'T WATCH THE SHOW!

In article ,

Well if you want to dig deeper into this phenomenon, look no further than that awful film "Gone with the Wind". Now ask yourself: how many Irish catholic families owned slaves in Georgia during that period? I'd bet its close to zero. Not that I really care about this sort of thing, by the way...

Tony

"The lunatic...doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else...You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars"

On 3 Dec 1996, Anthony M Annett wrote:

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Tony,

What in the movie or the book gave you the impression that Scarlett O'Hara was Catholic? I know it's been several years since I read it, but I for some reason don't recall one single mention of Scarlett's religion. She never went to Mass or confession or said a rosary that I recall. Wasn't her Dad from the North, and that's why the plantation was named Tara? I'm really curious as to what tipped you off.

-joan |

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-joan donahue a member of the religious left

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought. St. Augustine

"Joan M. Donahue" wrote:

Scarlett's Dad was from Ireland, his ancestral home there was called Tara. The Catholicism may have beed inferred from country of origin.

As to Seinfeld... Remember the episode where George was chided because he had no African-American friends? Or the one where Jerry asked a Chinese mailman where the nearest Chinese restaurant was? Or their feelings about a Jewish bris? Or the episodes where they volunteered to help elderly people? Or Babu from Pakistan? And so on.

I honestly do not think Seinfeld's decision to use the Irish for that particular show is indicative of anything.

Really, it tells me that the SEINFELD writers are obsessed with racial politics. Like the Third Reich perhaps?

David Harding wrote:

Nah, I don't think so.

Jeff Tremble - will program for food, coffee, net access.

No, just you.

Hold on, I was watching the Howard Stern TV shown a while back and he had on two of the Seinfeld writer - lesbians.

One of them had no hair and was dying on cancer and I am sure that she made a remark to Howard regarding some person. She said:

"Don't tell me he is Irish!"/ while at the same time she said 'Irish' she made a face like she would puke.

I think there is something to this after all.

Paul Morrison ([email]) wrote:

Hmmmm, you're watching Howard Stern AND you're offended by an alleged ethnic slur. How does that work?

Sure an begorra, how dare she! But then maybe she is a faithful to the old sod Irish-American-Looks like a Lesbian, who made a "puke-like face" because she really was about to heave. Anti-cancer drugs bring on a response like that. Of course, any nation (N.Ireland) that has been bombing and shooting innocent civilians for the last 200 years certainly should not be criticized by the vicious minions of that wonderfully funny laugh monger, Seinfeld. Chuck---(Irish and not too proud to be these days)

In article , Chuck--- writes:

STERN SHOW?

The bald woman was Marjorie Gross (the subject of the weekly "Who was Marjorie Gross?" thread). I'm pretty sure the other woman was Carol Leifer, who I think is Jerry's ex-girlfriend (probably not a lesbian) and (according to the rumors) the basis of the Elaine character.

That also happened to be marjorie gross--the woman who had a dedication made in her memory at the end of one of the latest seinfeld episodes.

the other woman (red head I presume) wasn't a lesbian. That was Carol Leifer (spelling ?)--another writer for the show and who use to date Jerry a while back

Hmmmmmmmm..... I wonder if that Soup Nazi guy is Irish.... if that's the case, then "NO SOUP FOR YOU....." all of you!

In article ,

Actually, I'm relying on second-hand information here, as I've never been able to sit through that dreadful movie. The argument I have heard is this (and I'n repeating it without necessarily endorsing it): this story reflected the strident anti-catholicism in the US at the time. Of course, it is subtle, as catholicism is never mentioned. But the implication is clear: the main protanganists (decadent slave-owners) were catholic of Irish descent (not Scotch-Irish). Tara, by the way, is not in the North.

Tony

"The lunatic...doesn't concern himself at all with logic; he works by short circuits. For him, everything proves everything else...You can tell him by the liberties he takes with common sense, by his flashes of inspiration, and by the fact that sooner or later he brings up the Templars"

Joan M. Donahue wrote in article

O'Hara

In the book the Scarlett's mother was the Catholic. It is mentioned in the begining before the 12 Oaks ball. If memory serves, it occurs just after Scarlett sees her father jumping the fence. Scarlett and her father join the rest of the family saying the rosary.

The original writer obiviously does not know the American South. The Irish did settle there. Savannah, Georgia has the third largest St Patricks day parade in the US. It has a large lovely Catholic cathedral at which it was my pleasure to attend Christmas Mass. It is quite possible that some one from Ireland owned a plantation and slaves. I suggest that the original author read some American history, this way he can speak from a position of knowledge.

Liz

"Joan M. Donahue" wrote:

Gerald O'Hara won the plantation in a poker game, after which he tells his valet (whom he also won) never to play poker against someone weaned on Irish poteen.

She talks about religion some, mostly when she's feeling guilty. :) Her mom was the more devout, but both of her parents were Catholic.

On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Michael & Michelle Martinez wrote:

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Thank you, thank you. I continued to amazed and astounded by all the replies. |

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-joan donahue a member of the religious left

Whoever, then, thinks that he understands the Holy Scriptures, or any part of them, but puts such an interpretation upon them as does not tend to build up this twofold love of God and our neighbour, does not yet understand them as he ought. St. Augustine

They sort of reminded me of the Kennedys. The father O'Hara was like Papa Joe methinx :)

They could have been Protestant, yet I wonder about the significance of the green dress made from curtains... The mystery (or mysteries ;) get deeper and deeper Was Margaret Mitchell Catholic?

Matthew in good ole Catholic Australia

To continue a completely off-topic thread, Scarlett's mother converted to Catholicism when she married Gerald O'Hara. Pissed off her own Southern WASP family something fierce.

Bo

give it a break man, it's a comedy TV show!

In article , [email] (Patrick A. Ferrel) writes:

I think they just wanted the total opposite of Nazi... something that would never be associated with the Nazi Regime....thats all... and again, its Television....

It Shrinks...???

Just Me, Lisa

 [email]
* * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Get the honey!"

                 ------------------------- "Fatso"

The average American would murder his childern it some TV show told him to.

The above statement just proves to the internet community that this git *himself* watches far too much TV.

Why don't YOU turn the set off and hop on a plane and spend about six months traveling around the States. To meet the *real* US citizens -- not the stereotypical BS that Hollywood stuffs down people's throats worldwide.

Just as everyone here has been angered by what is perceived as Seifeld's bigoted storyline --- you have bought into *all* the stereotypes of American television. Two wrongs *don't* make one right. Lighten up and turn off the tube and try to learn the truth! If you are capable of it!

Morgan

Morgan Robertson wrote in article ...

Really! we know TV is just TV.

Right On!!!!!!!

By the same token, I could say that Upstairs,Downstairs accurately reflects that average Englishman.

Liz

In article , David Harding wrote:

Someone list this one in the "Moronic, sweeping generalisations and exaggerations" log.

Sean P

BlackBeard -. .- -..- --.- De Profundis

Submarines once, Submarines twice...

In article ,

Hmmm... I wonder where this "iol" fellow hails from. What an outstanding example of class. His country must be proud.

David Harding wrote:

Why stop at tv? Why not a newsgroups..

:P I know if I had kids, last thing I would, or anyone else I'm sure of, is too kill them.

David Harding wrote:

What would the above average American do?

sell them?

Rob.

Rob Worsnop wrote:

Hey, good idea!

Not only that they stated they were from Dublin. And to think some prats are claiming there is no Irish connection in that episode!!!!!!!!

David Harding wrote:

To think some prats read something into it!!!!!!

Are you assuming that all Nazi's were German or Wasp's??? I think you may be the bigot. Nazi's came (and come) in all ethnic groups. During WWII, Nazis' could be found all over, Morroco, to Greece, Russia, to Italy, etc.

I think Seinfeld used the Irish sounding names as not to tip off the viewers as to what was going to come in the plot. If they would have called the two people Adolf Himmler and Claus Eichman you might have seen where the story was going.

Irish are probably the least likely people to be Nazis, plus Jerry and george could pass for and O'brien and Murphy so the limo driver and the two assistant(bodyguards) wouldn't have noticed.

Of course they could have use eastern names like Dong Tse Ping and Hyamota Nagisaki but i doubt the limo driver would have belived that Jerry and George were Asian.

Big John

Tom Hagen: "I'm German Irish"

Mr. Welsch: "Well let me tell you something my Kraut Mick friend..."

What is the point of all this? This whole thing stinks of over-analysis and paranioa. Some people seem to go out of their way to be offended. And what makes matters worse is the whole argument was started by a troll.

Prozac all round!

Shell.

P.S. Maybe someone would like to bring the conspiracy theory newgroup in as well?

First of all it was Murphy and O'Brien, not Fitzpatrick. Secondly, although I am in no way saying the Irish are more or less anti-semetic than any other nationality, one should note the fact that Ireland didn't bother to take a side in the second world war, didn't condemn Hitler or the Nazis and remained neutral in perhaps the most morally justifiable war in history (in its defense, Ireland simply couldn't stomach allying with Britain, which had done to it for centuries what Germany had in mind for Europe in 1939; and it has faithfully remained a neutral, pacifist nation ever since).

All that aside, it was obvious that Seinfeld or his writer was making fun of Jerry's ignorance on political/geographic matters or anything that goes on outside his own little world. It was hilariously absurd that Jerry made his Nazi Irish; it was wonderfully moronic when he said he came from the green *fields* of Dublin and it was self-deprecatingly funny when one of the neo-Nazis said of Jerry's ridiculous fake accent "that sounds more like a Scottish accent" and he said "we lived near the border." Now, I think even Seinfeld knows Ireland is an island separated from Scotland by a sea, and I think his writers suspected their viewers to know to. So, laugh! Laugh at thick Jerry the character, not Seinfeld the auteur!

BTW, my dad's a Jew and my wife's from Ireland, where I lived for awhile too, and we both laughed at the stupidity of both Jerry and George AND the neo-Nazis....

John/[email]

Ironically Ireland is the only nation that sent its condolances to Germany after the death of Hitler.

patrick degnan feeney ([email]) wrote: : :

:
:

:

duh, maybe that was because the irish are such fans of the english occupation?

Wait a second. Is this true? That Ireland sent Germany condolances?! I never heard that.

In any event, I am Irish as well and did not take much offense to the episode. I must admit that this thread DID get me thinking ..and for a second I thought I should be upset, but then it hit me...this is a comedy and is to be taken as so!

I totally agree with [email] (John Marcus): when he said:

<<<---quote included....... All that aside, it was obvious that Seinfeld or his writer was making fun of Jerry's ignorance on political/geographic matters or anything that goes on outside his own little world. It was hilariously absurd that Jerry made his Nazi Irish; it was wonderfully moronic when he said he came from the green *fields* of Dublin and it was self-deprecatingly funny when one of the neo-Nazis said of Jerry's ridiculous fake accent "that sounds more like a Scottish accent" and he said "we lived near the border." Now, I think even Seinfeld knows Ireland is an island separated from Scotland by a sea, and I think his writers suspected their viewers to know to. So, laugh! Laugh at thick Jerry the character, not Seinfeld the auteur! ......quote included-->>>

hear hear!

Why is it that the dumbest threads in this newsgroup stay alive the longest????

______________________________________________________________
Call 1-301-314-1719 to help take part in the nationwide search
for Joe.
                         _____________________________________
"Joe who?"               |Matt McDaniel
                         |[email]
"Jo Mama!!!"             |University of Maryland, College Park
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Matt McDaniel wrote:

'cuz people keep responding to them...d'oh.

It's going to take a whole lot to piss off us sons and daughters of Erin than anything that Seinfeld can throw at us. We Irish-Americans are the only ethnic group that not only tolerate silly stereotypes, but embrace them. Look, I know most of you love to get drunk and rowdy on St. Patrick's Day, be we still love you. I'd hate for somebody to have a collard green and Thunderbird party on Martin Luther King's birthday. The shit would really hit the fan. Besides, while our Indian friends bitch and moan about pro sports teams like the Washington Redskins , the Atlanta Braves (especially when they see Jane Fonda do the Tomahawk Chop with Ted) and the Cleveland Indians, We're all Notre Dame fans not in spite of their name "Fighting Irish" ( once a lot of Poles coached by a Norwegan) and a logo of a cartoon leprichaun in a boxing stance, but BECAUSE of it. i wish you would get with the program before the cops round up you hooligang into the paddy wagon. The rest of the country can learn a lot from us Irish.

A lot of Scotts-Irish live in or near Northern Ireland, just over/near the border in fact. It was actually a very astute comment by the writers.

I have my own theory as to why the irish were picked on but I won't waste space with it.

|

They were not Nazis, but some sort of militia type white supremacist group. And in America, you can find people in these groups with Irish surnames. So I don't see what the problem is.

If you don't have a sense of humor, why do you bother watching Seinfeld?

Dan

No way Dan, a ex-roommate of ine was the first poster of this and he showed me a video copy of the program and the two guys were from Ireland they said that they were from Dublin.

Tom Sheridan

Then watch the video again. Murphy and O'Brien were not supposed to be from Ireland. But Jerry and George had to pretend to be a Murphy and an O'Brien to continue to fool the armed supremacists in the limo. So they rambled on about Ireland. That was part of the humor. You were supposed to laugh about their lame attempt to act like a Murphy and an O'Brien. I still think The Limo is one of the best Seinfeld episodes ever.

Dan

In article , [email] (Daniel A LaGattuta) wrote:

writes:

OH, PUHLEESE GROW UP. I'm Irish and that episode had nothing WHATSOEVER to offend me. How can people so stupid work a computer?

Graham.

In article , [email] says... ->OH, PUHLEESE GROW UP. I'm Irish and that episode had nothing WHATSOEVER to ->offend me. How can people so stupid work a computer? -> ->Graham.

One word: Macintosh

Huckleberry wrote:

Oh yes... and, for the patriotic, they are assembled in Ireland (well mine was..)

Constantine x

Somebody wrote: ->>>How can people so stupid work a computer?

I wrote: ->>One word: Macintosh

[email] says... ->Oh yes... and, for the patriotic, they are assembled in Ireland (well mine ->was..)

Okay, it was just a joke. And for the record, the assembly of a Macintosh computer requires more brains than using one. ;)

In article , [email] (Huckleberry) wrote:

What's so stupid about using superior technology? I'd rather *use* a computer than *work* a computer.

Tim

On Wed, 25 Dec 1996 13:35:04 -0600, [email] (Tim McNamara) wrote:

Then why does everyone give the Chinese credit for being able to use an abacus rather than a 10 quid calculator? I've got more respect for someone who can fiddle about with the intricacies of MSDOS than someone who just relies on their Mac to boot up correctly every time.

Just thought I'd start a different flame war in s.c.i, the old ones get tedious.

In article , [email] (Andy D) wrote:

Silly me!

"Macintosh" *is* Celtic, isn't it? ;)

Tim

No, I'm pretty sure it's a fruit.

[email] (Suzanne Gilmore) wrote:

Gee, maybe it's an apple!

The apple variety, BTW, is spelled "McIntosh".

MacIntosh _may be_ Scotts-Irish. Before the family name that is mine, crossed to the US, it was spelled Mac----. It was when the name came over here that the 'a' was dropped.

Mary

On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Tim McNamara wrote:

On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Andy D wrote:

If DOS is so great, why does almost every IBM/compatible user have Windows, which is designed to make the computer look and work like...a Mac!

I don't necessarily prefer one or the other (I use both)...I just enjoy a good war as much as the next net-head! :)

In article [email] "Dave George" writes:

<gearr>

And which (including Win95) is still running on top of DOS.

In article , [email] wrote:

And a *10 year old* Mac, no less!

The "Macintosh" problem is not one of technology but one of having made a series of *really* stupid marketing choices. Had they marketed the machine properly, it would be DOS compatibles that would have a 5% share of the market. But, that's all water under the bridge. Who knows, the Mac clones and BeOS may take over yet!

Tim

Well Apple and Mircosoft never invented GUI and that in it self says a lot Gerald

lot

It says damn little, Gerald. Xerox considered the folks who invented the gui, the mouse, and point-and click to be a tax write off rather than a genuine resarch and developement project. The fact that they gave it away to Bosniac and Jobs is not the fault of Bosniac and Jobs.

DPW

Microsoft didn't invent DOS either. They bought it for $50,000 from another Seattle company called Seattle Computer. Not a bad return on their investment.

I don't know what this has to do with the newsgroups it's being posted to though.

Isn't it Wozniak not Bosniak ?? just fact checking.

Bullwinkle wrote in article ...

a

the

Don Weinman writes:

brrrnngggg! wrong answer. I haven't seen any sign that anyone posting on this thread knows the slightest thing about computers. it sounds like a bunch of parrots spewing out marketing propaganda.

the mouse, gui, etc. were invented by Douglas Englebart (sp?) in the early '60s, at IBM. Win95 does not "sit on top of DOS".

while the mac os looks pretty, and is easy to learn, it is lacking in many fundamental ways. DOS is lacking in every way, but what do you expect from MS.

pick up Linux (or Unix) if you want some real computing sophistocation. it is now available for Macs, Intel, and Alpha chips.

In article [email] "Chris Markle" writes:

<gearr>

Perhaps you can explain this bit that appears at the end of Win95's
COMMAND.COM?
                 =================Begin quote=====================
                 Corp Licensed Material - Property of Microsoft
                 All rights reserved
                 ==================End quote======================

This is not the same COMMAND.COM which is used when running in "MS-DOS mode". Tweaking the MSDOS.W95 file in the boot directory disables the screen which normally hides the DOS startup.

Now what were you saying about people not knowing the slightest thing about computers?

Chris Markle wrote in article ...

Now there is a real user friendly operating system. Unix is for those who like to write without vowels. Commands like cp, rm, ps are just sooo understandable. Win95 and MacOS at least provide decent interfaces.

Liz who is stuck managing a Unix machine

bio.uci.edu> : Organization: FSU Computer Science Department Distribution:

:

True, UNIX is not for novices. But I can't get anything done in a GUI environment. Unix of any flavor is faster, more efficient, and once you learn it, easier than any GUI OS I've ever worked with. Add X-Windows and you have the complete package.

Besides, if you don't like using the commands UNIX has, just alias them. You can call CP anything you want.

Geoff Callaghan

In article , [email] (Tim McNamara) wrote:

In fact, Bill Gates tried to lisence the Mac interface BEFORE they developed Windows. If Apple had aquiesed, there would be no windoze now.

And sice 15% of Microsoft's sales go to Macs, they don't want Mac to go under, but to grow!! In fact, they just started a new Mac Division separate from the rest of the company. (By the way, something like 60% of the software sold for the Mac comes from Microsoft).

• Richard Shannon Humanities Research Center University of Texas at Austin

On Sun, 29 Dec 1996, Charles Ellson wrote:

My point exactly, thanks much for making it for me. "On TOP of DOS." Because the user wasn't smart enough to run just DOS and needs a point and click system that is user friendly...like the Mac.

In article , Dave George wrote:

With Windows 97 DOS disappears completely (supposedly).

But I don't want to be a hacker, or a computer guy (not much anyway), I'm a writer and an artist who needs a crative machine that does what I want in the quickest, easiest, mst elegant manner.

• Richard Shannon Humanities Research Center University of Texas at Austin

In article , [email] says...

If you "use" a computer but cannot comprehend how it "works" then you may have made the right choice. Enjoy your appliance. Last I heard, its market share is around 5%. What the industry politely terms "negligible." This is all in good fun (at least it was started that way), so don't get all huffy! Joke! Joke! Joke!

In article , [email] (Huckleberry) wrote:

Huffy? Naaahh. That's a bicycle shaped object- different newsgroup! ;)

Tim (cheerfully typing away on my reliable old Macintosh PB145B... which boots properly every time and makes effortless connections to the 'net... and unfortuntely wasn't assembled in Eire).

In article , [email] (Huckleberry) wrote:

Since Porsche has 0.5% market share, does that mean that it's negligible? And thus Chevy is superior?

I think I'll keep the 911, thankyouverymuch <g>.

Pray for surf!

In article , [email] says...

huffy!

Continuing in the line of "good fun," must remind you that one does not need to buy standardized software for Porsches. Also, there is not a need for Porsches to communicate w/ other vehicles. The nature of computers being uplifted by sheer quantity and therefore support in the form of new software and hardware differentiates it from autos.

In article , [email] (Huckleberry) wrote:

And, of course, all standardized, major software titles are cross-platform, and many were Mac-centrric first (i.e. PageMaker, Quark Xpress, FileMaker Pro, FreeHand, Illustrator, etc.)

In Good Fun

In article , [email] says...

If all you want to run is standardized, major software titles, then you have no reason to care. And, ask yourself that same question in 5 years.

In article , [email] (Huckleberry) wrote:

So is the market for Mercedes, but that doesn't stop either from being the high-end technological craftsmanship.

I can use dos, don't want to, don't have to.

• Richard Shannon Humanities Research Center, University of Texas

In article , [email] says...

The Mac is "high-end technological craftmanship?" Since when? The car analogy doesn't work anyway, because cars don't have to be compatible w/ any other cars. Also, cars have limited potential for upgrading. Well, unless you own a VW bug. The issue is no longer about design and specs, because whatever you buy will be obsolete in a few years w/ computers. Then, when it's time to upgrade, it helps to have companies around manufacturing the upgrades.

If you want an analogy that is more applicable, try Beta v. VHS. Beta was technically superior, though not by much, but so what?

This thread was started by me as a joke, but I am willing to discuss it more seriously. Just take it to email as this is getting seriously off topic.

In article , [email] (Tim McNamara) wrote:

Then get an Amiga. ;)

Jeff

Nice job Graham... SMAK

You were born in Ireland? Because that is the only person on earth with the right to call themselves Irish.

Biddy Phullterm wrote:

What about people born somewhere else who later moved there? And I bet no matter what more than one person on earth was born in Ireland.

In article , [email] says...

WHATSOEVER to

with

i'm not sure about that moving there later thing...i'm a texas and to be a texan one HAS TO BE BORN THERE! nothing else matters...therefore, george bush is NOT a texan no matter how much he claims he is!

[email] (whatever) wrote:

Then how did he get elected governor?

In article , [email] (Jack Heraty) wrote:

There are two G. Bush's: Governor George Walker Bush, a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and a native born Texan, and his father, President George Herbert Walker Joyner Kersey Cougar Mellencamp Bush, a Yalie-educated Yankee who was born on third base and thought he hit a triple.

Will "Apologies to Jim Morris and Jim Hightower" Elliott

[email] (Will Elliott) wrote:

Um, I knew that.

In article , [email] (Jack Heraty) wrote:

Doh!

Will "Jack went trolling and hooked me" Elliott

[email] (Will Elliott) wrote:

Don't worry, I operate strictly on a catch and release basis. You will live to be hooked again.

Incidentally, there is no George Bush, Jr., as you probably know. The prez is George Herbert Walker Bush, the gov is George Walker Bush.

In article , [email] (whatever) wrote:

snip

I disagree. If you live there long enough to vote, and register to do so, and want to be a Texan (or Californian, Irish, etc.), you are one. A lot of people move to Texas because they have to, and always consider themselves something else (most of these move back home, or elsewhere, later), but many move here beause they want to, and if you live here, can vote here, and want to be a Texan - you are. (By the way, my mothers family, both sides, go back in Texas to the mid 1800s, in Gonzales, Cradle of Texas Independance. My dad's dad came here from Oklahoma when he was 18. My dad's mom was born here - as were both of her parents. So I am a Texan by Any definition.)

In article , [email] says...

Since when did you need a "right" to call yourself something? He can call himself Martian for all I care. Now, will people accept his self-designation if he calls himself Martian? Probably not.

If he has a Irish ancestry, will people accept his self-designation of being Irish? Most will. Not you, apparently. It seems that to you, being born somewhere "makes" you that nationality/ethnicity/whatever-term-you-care-to-insert-you-know-what-I-mean.

So, if my parents are both Vietnamese by descent (multiple generations) and by place of birth, and my mother gives birth to me in Turkey while on vacation, and then all 3 of us go back to Vietnam where I live out my life, then I suppose to you I only "have the right" to call myself Turkish, though I may not have an inkling of knowledge about the country, its language, culture, etc.

In [email]

WHATSOEVER to

with

call

self-designation

being

born

mean.

generations) and

life,

though

language,

If a cat has kittens in an oven are they called muffins?

Roanna

O'Brien and Murphy are both extremely common names. I think it's a stretch saying the nazi's were meant to slur the Irish. I'm Irish, and have never been offended by Seinfeld.

In article , Huckleberry writes

You can't have it both ways. The last comment quoted implies that you believe that lack of knowledge about a country means that you cannot claim to be OF it. Since so many people who claim to be Irish know very little about the realities of life there, you appear to be defeating your own argument. I think that there is quite an acid test. How many people who claim to be Irish would actually go and live there? If I apply this test to myself (born and lived there for 26 years) the answer is "no way" - for a whole variety of reasons. It could therefore be argued that even I have no "right" to call nyself "Irish" in a meaningful way. :)

In article , [email] says... ->>If he has a Irish ancestry, will people accept his self-designation of being ->>Irish? Most will. Not you, apparently. -> ->> though ->>I may not have an inkling of knowledge about the country, its language, ->>culture, etc. ->>

No, it was just for emphasis. The argument stands w/o its inclusion. Its inclusion was only to point out more clearly the flaw in the original logic. You can omit it if you find fault w/ it. It implies nothing germane to my point.