Elaine is a catholic?

Some people on here have been claiming that seeing as Eleaine crossed herself in one episode she can be considered to be a catholic. Not so. I am an atheist yet I will still cross myself, normaly for an intended (which usually doesn't work) huomourous effect. Which is what she was doing in that episode.

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In , "D. Robertson" writes:

Actually, that's not what she was doing. Humorous effect? You make it sound like she knows there's a studio audience watching. Sure, there is, but the characters in the show do not interact with them. Elaine was not trying to be funny. If anything, she was upset. Her manuscript was in the apartment, and she was desperate to get at it.

As for being an Athiest and crossing yourself, well, other than it being 'force of habit', or superstition (a la 'knocking on wood') I can't see a reason why you would do something like that. And why would it be funny to see someone who doesn't believe in God cross themselves? I just don't get the joke.

In article , [email] says...

It's the the funniest joke ever, but the joke is overexaggerated drama, hyperbole of sorts. It's like putting on a WWI gas mask after a buddy of yours has been on the toilet for half an hour, or blowing a gopher out of a golf course with dynamite. Exaggeration, because crossing one's self is typically reserved for extreme situations, like jumping out of a trench on the frontline.

Let's see. She was going into a room full of poison gas. She was frantically trying to retrieve a manuscript to read, that failure to obtain, meant lost of her dream job.

I can understand why it would seem that levity, on her part, (though not ours) is the farthest thing from her mind.

In article , [email] says...

a

Hey Lloyd, I wasn't answering the direct question about Elaine, but the indirect question posed by someone else regarding how he did not understand why it "ever" was funny for someone to cross themselves, especially if they didn't believe in any god(s). See above.

In article , [email] says...

Yes, I tried explaining that before, but to no avail. To most people on this newsgroup, you cannot explain causality and evidence of proof. To most people on this newsgroup:

1. If you cross yourself, then you are at least a Christian, if not a Catholic. If you cross yourself, you cannot be an atheist, Jew, Muslim, anything besides Christian. No matter what anyone tells them to the contrary, such as what you wrote above.

• If you are Italian, then you are Catholic. No ifs, ands, or buts.

• If you were any sort of cross-shaped jewelry, then you are Christian.

4. If you eat or are able to cook a given ethnic food, then you must be of that ethnicity.

5. Whatever religion your parent(s) ascribe to, then therefore you must ascribe to that religion as well. ... The list goes on and on. Oh yeah, I forgot the major one:

You are not allowed to point out that a given piece of evidence is not conclusive proof of whatever was trying to be proved without implying that you also disagree with the person's point.

For example, if someone says "Elaine's not Jewish because ________________," and you point out that "_____________" is not proof of anything (such as crossing yourself), then you are automatically labeled as a person who thinks that Elaine *is* Jewish, even if you believe that she is not.

Reminds me of the old saying, *There are no atheists in foxholes.*

If I remember the episode, Elaine crossed herself before rushing into what SHE thought might be a life or death situation. It might be funny to us, and Julie was surely doing it for comic effect, but that doesn't mean Elaine was doing it for comic effect.

In times of perceived danger, we often revert to those roots we discard in easier times. I was raised a Baptist, but I'm too sophisticated to attend church, y'see. But if I thought the end was near, I'm sure I'd start praising Jesus real fast.

Besides, Elaine's father was played by Lawrence Tierney, who's famous for playing Irish tough guys. Yeah, I think Elaine's Catholic. What kind of name is Benes?

On last night's episode Jerry and Elain went to a function for JEWISH SINGLES!!!!!

They did that as a favor for Kramer. Elaine didn't go because she was Jewish, she went because Kramer wanted her there.

In article , "Maria F. Dickinson" writes:

and..she did say... "I'm not Jewish".

It Shrinks...???

Jerry and Elaine went to that function to help out Kramer who catered the food there. Prior to going, while Elaine, Kramer, and Jerry were sitting at their usual booth in the diner, Elaine said "I am not Jewish" when Kramer asked her about going to this singles dance. This statement pretty much ends the debate here about Elaine's religion.

Not to me, to me the name Benes is most popular with two St. Louis Cardinals pitchers Alan and Andy Benes.

Well, she's both Catholic and Jewish in the series. The episode when Jerry had fleas and Elaine's manuscript was in the apartment, she was abou to run in when she crosses herself. In other episodes she's Jewish. Hmmm...I wonder...

Amanda

"There's no need to fear! UnderDog is here!"

Class of 1999. Go Wharton Wildcats!

In , Amanda writes:

No. Elaine is not Jewish in any episode. She is most decidedly Catholic.

[email] wrote:

I've seen that episode in syndication and the only religious reference Elaine made to the rabbi was that she was not very religious. Was the "not of his faith" part cut in syndication, or was "not very religious" the actual line?

It was just on in the Uk (last week) so it was quite fresh in my mind, and on the tape, which means that finding the section wasn't to tough. In fact I'm watching it now and yes she does say the "not of your faith" line.

This does raise an interesting point in that are the shows we get in the UK the complete uncut versions. We have only one ad break per show. Perhaps someone could recommend some example of syndication cutting and if we've got the missing peices then I suppose we've got the missing peices.

Why do people buy canned fruit?

mark.

In article , [email] says...

             ^^^^^^^^^

Actually, she is most _likely_ Catholic, though not practicing actively. Unless I misunderstand your usage of "decidedly"...

Yes, and Kramer arragned the function.......but, if you were paying attention, both Kramer and Elaine said they were not Jewish during the show.

D. Robertson wrote in article ...

In that episode, I think she even gave herself the sign of the cross backward. She went to her right shoulder before her left, which is the opposite way Catholics make the sign of the cross. Obviously, Julia Louis Dryfess and everyone else on the show are not Catholic or they would have caught the mistake.

Dave ([email]) wrote:

True, but when the script says "Elaine/Julia makes sign of the cross" Julia is the one who is doing the action. If she doesn't know how to do it properly, then that possibly says something about Julia's religion/denomination *and* that Elaine is Catholic.

So, although Julia's religion is irrelevant, her interpretation of her character's religion has some merit for debate.

You know, I hadn't thought it out that far.  But, I think you're right.
If Julia were catholic, she would have known how to cross herself
when that point in the script arrived.  The fact that the cross was
written into the script should indicate that the writers consider
the Elaine character as catholic.
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Dumb ass argument. Wayne and Garth are obviously using this gesture as a parody. Note, it's accompanied by "We're not worthy! We're not worthy!" (I'm sure all the muslims out there will attest, that's not how it's supposed to be done.) And I can't see how the Seinfeld writers would have Elaine cross herself as a 'humorous thing for the character to do', if for no other reason than Elaine was not being humorous in the scene, she needed the manuscript and didn't want to breathe poison gas. Does that sound funny?

Add this to the dozen or so other arguments for Elaine being Catholic, ie. Telling the Rabbi she wasn't of his faith, being worried that the priest and nun would see her 'exposed' in the Christmas card, etc, and it seems like you're just grasping at straws here.

I wrote a post recently mentioing Elaine's conversation with the Rabbi, (I'm sure you've all mentioned it before and as I'm new to this group my apologies if I'm stepping on toes here). My post was responding to a thread that asked whether Elaine was Jewish or Catholic and therefore was a valid argument to that question. I have since then made two other posts both arguing that Elaine was Catholic.

Firstly I mentioned how she knew a great deal about the South American Priest's visit to NY. I belive there was a response that said that it is common place for people to know a great deal about other religions. (Again I don't know if this was aimed at my orignal post, so sorry) My post said nothing of Elaine knowing anything of other religions I was trying to say that Elaine somehow knew a great deal about the goings on in one particular church. At the time it struck me how, when explaining it to Jerry, she knew so much about the priest and my only answer was her close contacts to her local Chatolic church. I live in the UK which is a very cosmopolition and culturaly diverse nation. I know a great deal about numerous faiths but I am not privy to the everyday comings and goings at my local places of worship. Elaine somehow did, which isn't conclusive but it helps.

Secondly I posted about the nipple card and the possible reaction of a priest and a nun. Now if you want to argue about that feel free but remeber you are in a very privalaged positon as you are not trying to prove anything only disprove evidence presented to you. Yes, Elaine has never worn a cross around her neck, attended mass or kissed the feet of the virgin mary on the show. She has also never admited to be Catholic, Jewish, Hindu or a Worshiper of Satan. I think maybe if you want to keep banging at this old chestnut you should perhaps start proving to us that Elaine isn't Catholic rather than us proving she is. The evidence has been presented and I feel the defence can rest, now it's time for the prosercution.

The Kramer name lives on!!!

mark

In , [email] writes:

I've grown weary of this thread, so this will be my last post on the subject.
No matter how much evidence you present, there will always be someone
there to refute the claim.  I've decided that Elaine is Catholic.  There are
just too many references that point to this conclusion, but you may have
an easier time proving to an Athiest that God exists than proving to these
'doubters' that Elaine is Catholic.
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Alright, Bao.  I've grown weary of this thread.  You're right.
I defer to your logic.  This is the last you'll here from me on this subject.
Thanks for setting me straight.
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In article , [email] says...

Again, you have failed to read what I have said and jumped to a conclusion that isn't true. Your incorrect jump in reasoning in furthers the point that clues do not equate proof...By pointing out a difference between clues and proof, I never expressed a requirement that everything be proved -- that is your incorrect assumption of what I believe.

An argument does need (at least) two sides. And, I did present my own argument, which you apparently missed by selectively ignoring that which did not fit your image of what I think. If I must be explicit, this is my "argument" (not in any particular order of importance; "most likely," "probably," etc. can be interchanged freely):

• Elaine is most likely not Jewish.
• Elaine is most likely Christian.
• Elaine is probably Catholic, though does not appear to be a regularly practicing Catholic.
• There have been several clues that indicate the above.
• None of the clues, collectively or individually, prove anything.

As an aside, I also have never stated that I don't like replying to these posts. Another thing attributed to me that I have never said.

As a big 6. to add to the list above: I believe that when concept of "proof" is used loosely and incorrectly, it actually can detract from the claim, with which one can agree yet disagree with the incorrect usage. As an example, if you wanted to further an argument that a Ferrari is a fast car by saying that it can go 400 miles per hour, you are actually taking away from your point because your claim of 400mph is wrong. I can still believe myself that a Ferrari is a fast car, but would contest the claim that it can go 400mph. Note that I can contest the erroneous claim yet believe that original one. And, if for some reason I wanted to spread belief of this claim, I would only be able to say that the erroneous claim for 400mph hurts the cause.

Elaine is definately not Jewish. In one episode, Kramer was organising a Jewish food night and asked both Jerry and Elaine along. Elaine replied "I'm not Jewish".

I would be suprised if someone as self obsessed as Elaine cared about any religion at all.

She went to "the best finishing schools on the Eastern Seaboard" (from the Moile episode). I'm from Australia; over here all the best private schools are religious (mostly Christian based, a handful are Jewish). I don't know if it's the same on "the Eastern Seaboard".

What clues are there that she is a Catholic over any other Christian religion?

Leonie

In article , [email] says...

Look, we've been over this before why this is not necessarily proof. It is a damn good clue, and one that I believe, but it is not clear which aspect of being Jewish is being referred to by Elaine. I believe she is referring to both aspects simultaneously, but that is just my gut feeling. There is nothing said or implied that she is referring to one aspect or the other, or both.

Lots of self-obsessed people are religious in one shape or form. Your "surprise" at such doesn't affect the truth or non-truth of a supposition.

Again, this has no bearing. Non-religious and other-religion (of a religion other than the religion of the school) people go to religious schools. Just because you go to a Catholic school doesn't automatically mean you are Catholic. My mom and thousands of other Vietnamese girls went to Catholic high schools in Vietnam simply because they could afford to get the best education in the area, which happened to be at a Catholic-oriented high school. The same thing happens today among kids in this country. Though I don't believe that Elaine is Jewish, I do know Jewish people who have sent their children to Catholic private schools.

I'm sure someone else will cover these clues once again for you.

Sure, you can be Italian and not Catholic, but Frank Costanza made a living
selling Jesus and Mary statues in the far east.  Does this sound like an
Italian non-Catholic?
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Dave wrote:

Just for the record, in Pittsburgh during the 80s, we had a devout Jewish landlord who had a big business selling Christmas ornaments and decorations to the Gentiles. And, after all, Jerry Stiller is as Jewish as is humanly possible; even on "Seinfeld" Frank Costanza is seen propped up in bed eating kasha varnishka--how many non-Jewish Italians do that???

I guess I'm not as well-versed in "Seinfeld" as I thought--Frank's a member of K of C? This all makes him seem like a walking mixed metaphor. Yiks.

Bob S.

Such fun! Actually, being a New York Jew myself, I am basing my observations as much on total modus operandi as on any specific details like eating kasha (which in itself is hardlt revealing, of course). Just watching Frank and Estelle live their lives (Estelle, incidentally, is the aunt-in-law of a good colleague of mine--and oy, are they Jewish in real life) is totally and even frighteningly familiar from relatives and people I knew as a kid in Brooklyn/Queens--well, maybe a little caricatured. The episode where Estelle and Frank meet Susan's parents for instance: they are livid and incredulous that they were served coffee "without a piece a' cake"; Frank absolutely has to go out of his way to bring a Schnitzer's marble rye; what can I say about such expectations and behaviors: I'm sorry, but I can't picture a New York Italian even thinking about a marble rye, much less making such a big tzimis (deal) about having one. Even this season, where appearances of Frank and Estelle were sadly brief, remember that Frank prepares a buffet of Jewish delicacies for a Jewish singles get-together. Whether or not they were initially written as Jewish, F & E's behavior patterns are so close to the real life I know, that they certainly have become recognizable as New York Jewish, not to mention that all the actors involved here are Jewish: Jason Alexander (originally Greenspan), Estelle Harris, and Jerry Stiller bring, as all actors do, much of their own experience to these amazing characters. So what else is nu?

Bob Seletsky

In article , [email] wrote:

In London a few years ago there used to be a fascist literature and Nazi memorabilia shop, much frequented by the local skinheads. Its owner was Jewish. Sometimes real life is even stranger than Seinfeld.

Dave wrote:

Just for the record, in Pittsburgh during the 80s, we had a devout Jewish landlord who had a big business selling Christmas ornaments and decorations to the Gentiles. And, after all, Jerry Stiller is as Jewish as is humanly possible; even on "Senifeld" Frank Costanza is seen propped up in bed eating kasha varnishka--how many non-Jewish Italians do that???

I agree with your first point, but please see my response to Bao H. Lammy (at 12:22).

Bob Seletsky

who cares if Elaine is catholic or not. she's funny either way

I've decided that Elaine is Catholic. There are

the

carelessly.

This is not a real person! Ya can't have proof! It's supposed to be fun!

If we were discussing a cure for cancer, don't you believe that people would not be so quick to jump on the proof. This is a TV show, with actors, with character's lives and histories and jobs and geraology and sexual preferences created by writers for consumtion in less than 30 minute bites each week.

Why would anyone in their right mind with an appreciation for "logic" attempt to apply academic reasoning to a weekly tv show? You've been breaking people''s chops on this subject for months. Man, get a life. You need help.

Regards, J.Pat

In article , [email] (JPatBrown) wrote:

Well said !!! To think that some people waste their time worrying whether some fictional character is of a particular religious persuasion. Sheesh.

Can't these people just accept that it is a whacky show where most things don't fit into the stereotypical lives we all lead. Granted, alot of the plots we can loosely relate to our own personal experiences but not to the extent that the 'fab 4' encounter.

Don't you think it just may be possible that the writers are purposely tormenting our minds with these conundrums.

I agree with J.Pat, get a life man, enjoy the show, and stop worrying about it !

Tony C.

Yeah. Don't spend your precious time worrying about Elaines whereabouts and religious preferences. Actually, you should stop visiting this newsgroup. We don't want to discuss conundrums here. Actually, we'd rather like to avoid watching Seinfeld altogether, 'cause people like you force us to reply, even though we don't have a) anything sensible to write down, b) respect for people who involve themselves too much in a stupid tv series b) a life. The only reason we even bother to visit this newsgroup, is that we have an urge to provide crappy replies to people who actually enjoy this piece of sh** tv series and try to get in touch with others who do.

In , Sigve writes:

By the way, these are the words I was referring to:

Okay, these are the two passages to which I responded. Together and individually, they indicate a belief that an _actress_ crossing herself incorrectly directly implies that the _character_ the actress is portraying is Catholic. I did not misread anything:

Yes, that is exactly what you said! And I am saying that Julia's action indicates that she is not Catholic (since she did it incorrectly) and that her doing it incorrectly says nothing about Elaine's religion.

Now you are changing the wording. I would never have objected to this paragraph, because it is exactly what I would conclude: "that Julia is most certainly not Catholic..." and that it "doesn't say anything about 'Elaine.'" This is _not_ the same as:

                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

*and

Look at the big picture, not the specifics. Use general terms:

If an actor misperforms a religious gesture, then the actor is most likely not of that religion. However, the incorrect gesture says nothing about the religion of the character. An incorrect gesture definitely does not indicate that the character *is* of that religion. That was what was being argued about Elaine that I objected to:

                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Kevin C Welch wrote in article ...

this.

Well then George is definitely not jewish. He signed the cross over his chest in "The Limo".

In article , [email] says...

way

and

the

It may not have been a mistake. Eastern Orthodox Christians make the sign of the cross in that fashion. The mystery lives. Clanceman

I think i have found the proof that Elanie is a Catholic and will apologise in advance if this has already been mentioned. In The Pick Elaine has a Christmas card printed with her nipple showing. When she realises who has recived a copy she lists them. Two people included are:

Sister Mary Cathrine and Father Celeose (sic).

Now you can argue about this until your blue in the face but for me it proves her attachment to the Catholic Church. Yer anyone can send a card to a priest and nun but when listing the people she cares most about she starts with family and then mentions these religious associates. Well just throwing that one out there!

Lets move it out soilder boys.

mark

In article , [email] says...

You can use whatever criteria for proving something to yourself as you want. Again, though, this is not conclusory evidence. You make a good point by saying that anyone can send a Christmas card to a priest and a nun, especially someone Christian, obviously.

However, your oversight was that regarding Elaine mentioning the priest and the nun among the first people she was worried about (along with her family) meant that she cared most about the priest/nun (along with her family), and hence, she is Catholic. This is a possibility, no doubt about it. However, what makes more sense to me is that the first people Elaine was worried about seeing her nipple were the ones she would be most *embarrassed* if she knew they saw her nipple. Priests and nuns (along with one's family) make sense as the last people one would want to be exposed to a card of oneself showing a nipple.

The real questions are 1) Is George Jewish? and 2) Why doesn't Jerry ever date Jewish women?

• I don't know.

2. He has. Remember Rachel the girl who wasn't supposed to eat the lobster?

Thank you J.Pat, you've helped to prove my point quite eloquently.

Reminds me of a story. A math logic professor and his student are riding a train through a valley. They see a white sheep grazing in a field off to the side. The professor asks the student "what can you infer from this?" Anyway, they start out with 'All sheep are white', then 'at least one sheep is white', and end up with 'at least one sheep is perceived to be white on at least one side'.

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Elaine is Catholic. It came to me in a dream.

hey dave,

is there any way to freakin stop this thread.. man it gets annoying..

just tell those people that: jerry is jewish on the show and IRL, Jason Alex is jewish IRL but NOT on the show, and Kramer and Elaine aren't jewish on the show OR IRL...

facts are facts... phew...

thanks!

-Scott

"Buckle up straight jack, Sanity is such a drag Jellybean thorazine Transcendental jet lag Sanity I ain't gotta, Feeling like a pinata Sucker punch - blowin� lunch Motherload - pigeonholed I'm feeling like I'm gonna explode!!" -Steven Tyler

SJF403 wrote in article ...

Agreed, this thread was old to me starting with the second of 300 posts. I really couldn't give a shit any less who is catholic or jewish; on TV, movies, or even real life! It just doesn't matter.

In , "Alex Andreadis" writes:

It ALL matters. If we stop discussing the bullshit details, what's left? A newsgroup full of ads for cable descramblers, porno web sites, psychic hotlines and, of course, SDines11 selling his screensaver CDROM.

(BTW, I've noticed you've toned it down a bit, SDines11. Thanks.)

Besides, it's not all about information gathering.  I've know people for years,
and still don't know as much about them as about some of the people who
post here.
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Jason

I

yeah, but this is a thread that's been discussed until we're all blue in the face.. we know who is catholic and who is jewish... enough!

how about starting some new threads, think of some new things to discuss.

Later

-Scott

"Buckle up straight jack, Sanity is such a drag Jellybean thorazine Transcendental jet lag Sanity I ain't gotta, Feeling like a pinata Sucker punch - blowin� lunch Motherload - pigeonholed I'm feeling like I'm gonna explode!!" -Steven Tyler

I need to clarify. First, I brought up in-laws because they are more often of a different ethnicity or religion than closer relatives. However, I was not implying that in-laws are always of a different ethnicity or religion, nor was I implying that close relatives are always of the same ethnicity or religion. The stepfather I am referring to above is white and of German descent, and his side of the family is predominantly Lutheran as well.

My child would never be mistaken by appearance as being of German descent. But, that's because I am Vietnamese. If I were of Polish descent, I might still give my child names I know from my stepfather's side of the family, because I admire them. Then, people like you who don't know how to reason soundly would look at my child and assume that my child is of German descent even thought that would be totally false.

Someone with the middle name of "Marie" -- all that means is that their parents just liked the name or admired someone with that name. That admiration may be directed at anybody; a middle name can be given to a child simply because the parents had a good friend named Marie. People get named after celebrities as well. Someone told me that Jennifer became a popular name for awhile because of a movie.

Open your mind.

"Maria F. Dickinson" writes:

Maybe Elaine is Eastern Orthodox. More specifically, maybe she's Latvian Orthodox!?!

Bob Roman