615-616 Review

SEASON SIX SPOILER SPACE
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

Well, tonight I saw TOT Could Have Been for the second time. I'll admit I disliked this episode when I saw it in February. But this time it was much better. I don't think it's the *great* episode most people make it out to be, but it's definitely a good episode.

For me there were two really good stories that stood out above the rest:

Chandler/Joey: The role reversal story was brilliant. The only thing that would've been better was if this story continued into Part 2. It really could have been developed slightly more. So much potential.

Joey/Rachel: It is always good when 2 people who usually aren't together are paired for an episode. I'm glad they didn't sleep together, but I would have liked Rachel to get revenge on Barry somehow.

Two others stories were decent, but weren't stand-outs:

Ross/Carol: It was great to see Ben, Carol, and Susan again. This subplot's main weakness was a simple case of "been there, done that." The whole lesbian story was resolved seasons ago. We know Carol is gay. It was funny the *first* time. And was the threesome really necessary???

Chandler/Monica: This is the story I hated the most the first viewing. But this time around, I realized it really wasn't a bad story. It was just a victim of bad timing. Since C&M had been so overused this past season, this episode appeared at the time to be just ANOTHER Mondler story. It would have been better if they approached the story differently, also. C&M having sex isn't exactly an *original* story. Of course it didn't help that a terrible C&M sex subplot aired two weeks prior. A few less C&M episodes this season, and 616 would have been a *refreshing* C&M story. But unfortuately it has to settle for being one of the MANY C&M plots of Season Six.

And there were a couple things I didn't like at all:

Fat Monica: It was funny the first time. It was less funny the second time. It wasn't funny at all this time. Been there, done that...

Phoebe: Terrible idea. Phoebe had her own story, when instead she should have been involved in a plot with the other characters.

All and all I'd probably give this episode a B. Maybe a B+ for effort. I still think this isn't the 'greatest' episode that critics make it out to be. Being a fantasy episode, we should have seen more "different" and less "same". The lesbian story was far from original. And C&M didn't *need* to be together in this episode. They could have hinted it at the end (like R&R), without them actually having a story together. And while this didn't upset me at all, I'm sure the fact that the writers chose to put C&M together in this episode, but not R&R, angered many diehards.

--Doc

I was absolutly estatic that they ran the episode in it's entirity before it hit syndication because in syndication it would have been murdered and never again played as a double episode. So now I have a copy of it!

I love this episode

at the time Ross didn't know that she was gay in this world.. How would you have carried out this storyline then?

~Act

Ross didn't know Carol was gay in The Flashback. To me it was basically the same story again. Only Carol wasn't doing anything behind Ross' back---she was doing it in front of his face.

I would have approached this story in a slightly different way. The original premise was "What if Carol never realized she was a lesbian?". It should have stayed that way. But instead, the writers chose to make the point of this story: "Carol and Susan would have ended up together anyway." I would have focused more on Ross and his marriage falling apart, and not the lesbianism. Also, I didn't see why Susan had to be reason AGAIN. The writers could have thought up something new.

Off subject, did anyone ever think Carol may be a factor again in Ross' life? Back around the first couple seasons, I didn't really expect Carol and Susan's relationship to last. I figured in a few years or so, Susan would cheat on Carol with a guy. Carol would then finally realize how much she hurt Ross. (To this date Carol has never shown any guilt for what she did to him). Carol would decide she wants Ross back, so they and Ben could be a family. This would happen at the same time R&R are ready to get back together. So, Ross would have to choose between the mother of his child, and the love of his life. This could also help make Ross a sympathetic character again, something he has lost in recent years. Not only that, it would be great to see Carol and Ben again, in a much more important role.

--Doc

DocDoc2222 wrote:

Carol fulfills a political agenda. David Crane is gay. She is written the way she is as a statement that fulfilling one's sexual identity is more important than the people you hurt in the process. Under no circumstances will they ever allow anything suggest that Carol leaving Ross for Susan was anything but the best possible choice for her. TOW Could Have Been cemented it by having her just have her revelation later - and Ross was still the one made to look silly rather than Carol.

life?

Susan's

(To

way she

than the

have

than

I've always kind of suspected the same thing myself. For those who are pushing for Vermont-style sanction and even beyond that for same-sex unions, one of the agenda items is to show that such relationships are healthy, serious, committed, etc. If we ever saw Carol or Susan acting mean toward each other or cheating on the other or anything like that, I would have been stunned. And of course along the same lines it stands to reason that none of the main cast is the least bit homophobic, in fact they are just the opposite.

Having said that, I have also felt like they never really have shoved the Carol-Susan relationship down our throats or anything close to it (I'm not saying anyone said they did, I'm just observing that that is what conservative critics would expect and it hasn't really happened). For the most part, they have focused on other aspects of life and both Carol and Susan have been seen being less than perfect. When they got married, they did just one line from the marriage ceremony (a provocative line it was, though), and then skipped the rest of it, and allowed us to see how uncomfortable Chandler was at the reception. For the most part, they have been subtle enough that we really are allowed to form our own opinions about the whole thing, at least, that is how it has struck me.

On Sat, 8 Jul 2000, JamesS1889 stated this considered view. Waking from my doze, I hastily scrawled -

I need new glasses - I read that as 'onions' at first!

In article , Paul Hyett wrote:

Hey Hey Hey! Equal rights for same-sex onions!

Tennant Stuart

I had no idea. Well, that certainly explains the prominence of the Ross/Carol/Susan story in Season 1.

She is written the

This has always bothered me. Carol was never punished for what she did to Ross. She has received nothing but happiness ever since cheating on him. No guilt, no consequences.

Ross, on the other hand, is eternally punished for sleeping with Chloe. He is the one hurt the most from the breakup with Rachel. Three and a half years later, he still suffers...

Double standards seem to be far to common on this show...

--Doc (who still hopes Susan will cheat on Carol someday)

But I think you are missing a vital point. I think the point of the episode was to show that everything would turn out the same in the end at one time or another, by one way or another because it is "meant to be" engrained in their characters.

~Act

I realize that was the point of episode. I just didn't agree with the approach towards this subplot. The point should have been "Ross' marriage would have fallen apart anyway, regardless of Carol's sexual preference". Their marriage could end anyway, without Susan's interference, proving they weren't "meant to be". Instead, as before, they focused only on the lesbianism.

In this episode C&M didn't hook up in London, drunk and depressed. They took a new and different path to finding each other. The same should have happened with Ross. He and Carol should have broken up along a different path, not in the same way as before. The fact this was six years later, didn't change the story enough for me.

A Carol/Susan union wasn't necessary for this plot. They aren't part of the show's cast. What mattered in this episode was what happened to the six. It isn't important whether C&S end up together. All that was important was Ross' marriage collapsed.

All and all, the point of the episode was reasonable. I only wanted to see a different, original means to an end. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I was just hoping for a little more, that's all...

--Doc

DocDoc2222 wrote:

Funny thing, though. I am notorious for being hard on C&M, but this was one of the times I thought they they got it RIGHT. I liked this one. I liked their much more gentle dynamic. I very much preferred Monica. I thought it was charming and funny. It's about half of the other 99 zillion C&M subplots that I'd like to remove. This one is a keeper.

I'm sure that's what set you off. You are right. It was awful.

Fat Monica: It was funny the first time. It was less funny the second time.

Well, then don't concentrate on getting a belly chuckle over her being in a fat suit. Take it merely as a plot device which goes along with one very troubled part of her life, and concentrate on her wanting to get laid. That was the humor.

Nah. The two were barely out of their bad marriages. The fact that they ended up commiserating in their own corner was fine, with the idea that they were drawn to each other implied. It seem plausible and not forced.

Claire Abraham wrote in message news:[email]...

[snip stuff about overused C&M storylines]

second time.

being in a fat

very troubled part

the humor.

I had two reactions to the use of Fat Monica. First, I found the constant eating jokes repetitive, mean-spirited, and not funny (and no, I'm not overweight myself). Second, I found her personality even more grating than the current Monica. FM's voice was squeaky and childish, as was her personality to a degree. She seemed very much like a kid in a grown-up's overweight body.

And, to be quite honest, I found Monica to incredibly _unattractive_ as FM. [shudder]

episode, but

Not me. My objections are noted above.

they ended up

were drawn to

Yes, I thought the scene at the end with R&R in Central Perk was perhaps the best moment in a mediocre episode. Talking and acting like grown-ups, with the humor a bit more subtle and melancholy.

Good observations. I'm in the same boat as you. In Feb. I thought the ep sucked! It still wasn't A material butI enjoyed the ep more the second time. The C & M plot I bought the 2nd time also. P's role still was below par and Rachel still look fine!

1st Part: C- 2nd Part: B- Net: between C and C+ (great idea, poor writing/ideas to develop plot)

:

DocDoc2222 wrote in message news:[email]...

are

have

I loved the Joey/Rachel thing because I've always thought they would be great together.

subplot's

lesbian

I agree that they should have had the marriage break up in a different way. Maybe Ross could have ended it because they drifted apart. Why does he always have to be such a victim, even in the fantasy episode?

But

I would really have liked to see Monica's what if... as something totally different. Don't get me wrong, I love Chandler and Monica together. But, for the fantasy episode, I would have liked to see WWHB if she had married Richard even though he didn't want kids. That could have been great. The only problem might have been Chandler's reaction if she wondered about it out loud.

Then, they could have done something interesting with Chandler and Phoebe.

time.

have

I haven't always thought it, but I do think that Rachel as she is now would be great with Joey.

Quite. I really didn't like him in 311-315, but surely he's been punished enough by now. I reckon Phoebe would be very good for him, help him heal.

Tennant Stuart

No, I don't think so. Joey will put moves on Rachel, as usual, but she will coldly reject him. Joey, not only frustrated, but jealous of Chandler, will then attempt to seduce his true love, Monica. Eventually the gang sees a pattern of this and kicks him out of the group. Only Phoebe says goodbye. Joey moves to Los Angeles where his new movie is being filmed. He rooms with a newly-divorced Kip, and across the hall from two girls named Monanna and Raquel.

As for Rachel, she finally realizes she is a total bitch and nobody likes her. Fearing eternal loneliness, she begs Ross (now divorced 5 times) to take her back. Ross agrees, but only if she'll be his slave for life. Rachel, with no other options, must accept. Ross forces her to quit her job, and her worst nightmare comes true---she is a housewife!

Phoebe knows that she must let Ross go, if she truly loves him. On the verge of suicide, Phoebe is abducted by aliens from the planet Jbzrnisl. The leader reveals that he, not Frank Sr., is her biological father. Phoebe takes this news to her birth mother, and Phoebe Sr. confims it. Phoebe tells Ursula, but Ursula says she knew all along. Phoebe decides to return to her home, Jbzrnisl, but not before asking Joey to join her. Joey, a major movie star, politely declines. But they do make love before she leaves. Nine months later, Prince Joseph of Jbzrnisl is born.

As for Chandler and Monica, Monica decides that they don't spend enough time together. Monica takes a new job as a chef in a restaurant in Chandler's office building. They are both eventually fired after being caught having public sex for the hundredth time. Chandler and Monica, along with their 16 children (half of which they adopted), lose their home. They move in briefly with Ross and Rachel, but leave after Rachel chases three of the children with a broom. Finally, they settle with Monica's parents, and the four of them start a new business together---Food and Sex Toys!

--Doc (not to be taken seriously)

In article , [email] (DocDoc2222) wrote:

Lol! Especially the Ursula bit... :)

Tennant

LOL

But Monanna and Raquel are not like Monica and Rachel, and are unable to resist Joey's charms. They are *very* good friends however, and decide to share him rather than compete over him. Joey is very pleased with this arrangement. Having quick and easy access to all the sex he could ever want, Joey is able to fully concentrate on his acting career and soon becomes an American cultural icon. He uses the money he makes from his stardom to pay Chandler back all the money he owes him and do Kip 2 favors; 1: Soundproof Joey's room and 2: Buy Kip a lifetimes supply of socks. Later on in life, he meets his son. When he is elected, President Joseph creates the NBSPP (National Bureau of Sandwiches Pizza and Porn) and appoints his semi retired father as the chairman.

I don't know why, but I think this one is somewhat appropriate. Rachel looked wholesome holding those brownies in TOW The Giant Poking Device.

Prince Joseph is quite happy growing up on Jbzrnisl, but encounters problems after puberty. Although he is quite popular with the ladies of the planet, due to a tragic freak of genetics he is unable to consummate any of his relationships. Not being Omnipotent, and not wanting to kill himself, Joseph asks his mother for permission to return to the earth. She reluctantly agrees, but warns him that it is a land of "Strange ideas like geometry, evolution and the yearly ritualistic devouring of turkeys." Once he arrives on earth, its red sun amplifies his powers over women and allows him to charm his way into the Oval office. He marries a woman who is a match for him intellectually, but cheats on her repeatedly. Despite his lame excuses and the massive public attention his affairs get, his wife never finds out. What else do you expect from a woman who's maiden name was Dopey Bing?

Even Monica never expected to have this many kids, and makes the horrendous mistake of naming the 6th one Richard. Obviously, this irritates Chandler to no end, and causes him to treat the young lad with less respect and love than he gives the other 15 little Bingalings. Poor Dick Bing grows up a sarcastic and family situation fearing fellow, and has a large amount of trouble in his future relationships with women. To make amends for her stupid child naming mistake with little Richard, Monica foolishly allows Chandler to name their next 10 children. Alvin, Simon and Theodore do quite well and are happy in their world. But unfortunately, Sleepy, Dopey, Happy, Sneezy, Grumpy, Bashful and Doc are teased for almost their entire lives.

Mislead (only a fool would take this seriously)

LMAO!!

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Mislead doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Actually, I don't think it's appropriate. Rachel may be many things and deserve many things, but such a strong woman that doesn't really [1] need a man to get by being forced into a life of essentially being the bitch of the man who was *supposed* to have been her one true love, however much she might have it coming to her, just doesn't ring true or right for me. And think about it - what would it say about Ross? I can guarantee that the writers would find some way to make him look incredibly horrible for it, like they always do.

Other than that, yes I am aware it was all a joke, and it was funny. :) (Maybe I just can't appreciate the humour because I'm a wee bit hungover today... :))

Tina

[1] By that I mean that she doesn't go hopping from sack to sack just to make herself happy. Did any of those who complain about such a pretty girl having so few dates ever stop to think that it might be because she has the confidence to say "no"? [2] [2] I really am *not* in a good place to be talking about this today... :)

In article , Tina wrote:

Good point, Tina.

Awww. Bad day?

Tennant

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Tennant Stuart doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Thank my womens' rights' loving mum. :)

No. Hangover. :) (Well, not exactly - I went to my school's summer ball last night, and I had a couple but not enough to get drunk, but I'm still completely exhausted. :))

Yea that's why I couldn't enjoy it either. It was too fake for me.

~Act

In article , Tina wrote:

That could be due to dehydration, d'yer reckon?

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

Tina, the character herself has repeatedly whined and complained that she doesn't have anybody in her life. Without criticizing Rachel at the moment, I can say pretty confidently that I doubt a woman who looks like THAT would realistically stew over being manless for three solid years. Dating and bed-hopping are not the same thing. This, however, is more a symptom of the writers not knowing what to do with Ross and Rachel now that they've thrown them in the trash can, then any concious artistic decision.

I think Doc's scenario was a joke. Remember, Doc turned Phoebe into a space alien, too.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Claire Abraham doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

There was a disclaimer on there. It was basically saying that "I Did Some Mad Partying Last Night, And Am Therefore Not Qualified To Make Any Sane Judgements At This Time". :) In other words, I can't actually recall her complaining *that* often right now (but now that you mention it...), but if she does as often as you're implying, then actually that's worse as it's implying that even the most single-minded women aren't complete without a man. To be honest, I suspect a possible explanation that the writers would give would be that she *does* get hit on but doesn't go out with many people because they're plain just not her type or something - although I agree, it's more just a symptom of them not knowing what to do with her. (Here's a hint - get her and Ross back together! Even if you think they should or shouldn't, it'd certainly be more interesting than what we're getting now! [1])

Btw, you think I'm bad? - my mum would have a field day with this. :)

I did actually say that I got that it *was* a joke. Is my server cutting posts again or something?! :)

Tina

[1] Sorry, still tired from Last Night, and am now doing my best to ignore certain people somewhere else who don't have a clue what they're talking about about certain things...

Keyword: "somewhat"

"Some" being the gets whats coming to her part. "What" being the Ross forcing her to quit her job part (mostly). :)

Actually... I just couldn't think of anything funny at the time. The idea of Rachel as a housewife is so comical that I couldn't possibly improve on it.

She's like the Anti-Sex and the City woman.

Aaaaah, an hour in the life of Barney Gumble.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Tennant Stuart doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Nope, she'd probably drive him completely insane and do him more harm than good.

In article , Tina wrote:

Let's pick this up on a different day, okay Tina? :)

Tennant