Judging from the latest trailer, I find it odd that Joey deals with his crush by telling her "I'm falling in love with you". It sounds more than a crush to me. Isn't this the same guy who gives advice to Ross and Chandler on girls and knows how to pick up them up with lines like "how ya doin'"?
I'm surprised that Joey would react in the manner he did - apparently coming clean over dinner. What will an unsuspecting woman who hasn't the faintest idea say or do in that situation?
Clearly, when they went on that date previously, it did nothing for her and Joey knew that.
Wouldn't it be better if Joey try, to use that word from the 80s, "woo" her instead and try and find out if she's even remotely interested? Not that he as the slightest chance in hell, IMO.
It does demonstrate that Joey's feelings for Rachel are different to those he has for his usual conquests. Whether this is because he is genuinely in love with Rachel or because he has let his infatuation grow due to his continual denial that he could have a relationship with her is something we will have to wait and see.
I disagree, The episode clearly showed that Rachel was attracted to Joey, though in Rachel's case this was probably temporary and more due to her circumstances at the time rather than any underlying feelings for Joey.
I have some sympathy for Joey. I have had similar feelings to his for a friend, though in my case my failure to make an advance was due to shyness, not Joey's moral code which puts Rachel off-limits.
Logic goes out of the window. Yes it would make more sense to take it slowly as you suggest. However when the chance finally arrives for you to express your feelings the urge to bear all is almost impossible to resist as you feel that that will be your one and only chance to make the relationship work.
Huh! Time for a breather. In retrospect, just what did I give away that's spoiler material? Mr. Walker a few threads above is seen providing a precis of the trailer in the last para. but look who gets a kick in the butt? Anyway, just using the acres of white space to vent my fustration.
It's certainly an infatuation, as at no time did Rachel reciprocate his feelings. They were exploring each other's courtship and end-of-the-night moves and had a great time. Forbidden fruit tastes the sweetest and Joey's obviously got a severe craving for one.
Attraction's not the right word in my opinion; I would use the word agreeable. Rachel found Joey agreeable. Do I sound like an English teacher? :)
Joey's a good looking guy and made an excellent date, however, the rest of the 'relationship' was played out in Joey's head.
There's no reason to feel sorry for Joey as all of us find ourselves, at some point in time, at the crash site of unrequited love.
Joey is in a quandary isn't he, though not necessarily a moral one. In my opinion Rachel is one of his best friends and by making an 'advance' he may very well be putting that friendship at stake.
I agree with you on this John. However, it might backfire as Rachel in this case is going to have to deal with this on the spot.
Contrast this with Ross and Rachel. Ross while attempting to profess his feelings for Rachel was stopped cold in his tracks by Paolo, the cat and ex-fiance. Fortunate for him in a way. Rachel had plenty of time to ponder over Ross' feelings for her when she did find out and the awkardness was removed as Ross was in China completely unaware at that time. I wonder how Rachel would have reacted if Ross had done what Joey was about to do; catch her completely off guard.
Someone in this newsgroup said the writers have got their heads in the game this season when Rachel moved out so that Ross could get access to her and the baby. How right that person was. The awkwardness of having Rachel and Joey as room-mates is also removed by doing so. The writers have a unique opportunity to test the foundations of Joey's and Rachel's friendship that can prove to be intriguing and funny and I hope they do so instead of pairing them up and reduce Friends to yet another day time soap. Thanks!
The first post in response to his, I believe, has the trailer info snipped and a reminder about spoiler space. For what it's worth. :-) Some people avoid watching the promos for the same reason people avoid other types of spoilers online; for example, NBC's promo for TOW Chandler Takes a Bath showed Rachel mouthing the sex of the baby, and some people realized it without even trying who had wanted to be surprised.
Jean (email address is blocked; I only use AOL for newsgroups)
Once something has aired in the US, I don't consider it a spoiler. Hence these commercials, which are aired every hour on the hour on NBC, should be treated as such.
What a lot of people don't realize about Joey is that even though he is well-experienced with women, he is a complete rookie when it comes to the proper ways of courtship. Obviously, he is going way too fast on this, but the real test of his feelings for her will come after what Rachel has to say to him.
I think Joey has clearly shown how horrible he feels about being attracted to his friend's ex. You don't choose who you get to fall in love with.
Yes. Rachel said several times how much she enjoyed the date. And she never gave any indication that she didn't think about Joey in that way.
So far, maybe it has. But what do you usually expect from a crush?
This to me seems twinged with an R&R fan's spite. Do you honestly think Rachel is that far out of Joey's league? I would even say Joey is out of Rachel's league.
But look what he has done to put his feelings aside so far. Having Rachel move out, talking with Ross first, etc.
Joey's under the gun here. I don't think it takes a genius to realize how long a single Ross living with a single Rachel with baby on the way will take to start feeling things for each other. And by then, it will be too late for Joey to tell Rachel.
I was the one who said the writers had their heads in the game, and it was not primarily because of Rachel moving in with Ross. It was because if they were going to seriously extend the Joey and Rachel romantic storyline, they had to split them up as roommates. I only think that their bond is going to be stronger now than they were roommates now that they know one of them has feelings for the other.
Maybe he thinks he's on the "15th date", or whatever term Phoebe used way back when.
Yes, there's no question of it.
Actually, when you've known somebody this long, you do, a little bit. It is quite feasible to put a little distance between yourself and a dream lover you know you cannot and must not have. I still hold a theory that this is our hero had a moment of loyalty and very good sense in suggesting Rachel move in with Ross. :-) Don't worry, I know it's a sitcom and I don't think this is gospel
Well, remember... the assumption that such feelings *don't* exist is the default mode, especially with two people who have had a platonic friendship for a long time. She would not give any indication whether or not she though of Joey romantically unless the idea was seriously suggested.
Well, it's what we might expect at this stage of the story, certainly.
No, actually, under normal situations I'd say they were in comperable leagues. If he has a poor shot, it's because of the devestating baggage in the situation.
So you think their moving in together DOES make it more likely that they will become a couple again?
Not making any predictions. With season nine coming, all bets are off and I just hope it's written well, with as much respect for all the characters as we saw in 815.
There is a certain degree of familiarity since they were roommates. But Rachel didn't have the baggage she does now when Ross was infatuated with her, and if anything Ross took way too long to tell her considering the situation. Joey on the other hand should be going a lot slower with the situation at hand, but you have to realize that they wrote and filmed this episode before they knew there would be a 9th season, so they might have had to hurry this story along. Now they can slow it back down after 817, since episodes after that will be with the knowlede of a 9th season.
Actually, I can empathize with Joey a little bit. There was a girl I knew for several years through mutual friends, and we hung out quite a bit. All of sudden, one day while we were playing football she tackled me to the ground, and I saw this look in her eye that just made my heart melt. You don't care about all the baggage when you start feeling that way about someone.
Not now that Joey will tell Rachel. If Rachel didn't know about Joey, she could become attracted to Ross again without knowing how much it would hurt another person. Now that Joey has implanted that thought into her head and Ross's, I think both will be very reluctant to look at being a couple again.
816 looks really good, and may be the best 16th episode of the season ever.
Thanks! That's what I think as well. Its shown so regularly that the only way to avoid finding out prematurely is not to watch tv for the next 3 weeks until the eppy is aired.
When you meet someone for the first time or even by chance, yes it would hold true. In Joey's case he chose to fall in love with Rachel whom he'd been best friends with for nearly a decade, with full knowledge of her present situation and her history with Ross, the baby's father. While you don't choose who you get to fall in love with; you can choose who you don't fall in love with, esp. with someone you've known as long as Joey had known Rachel.
Joey's in a position right now where its more intense than an infatuation. No long a crush IMO. I think he feels he's in love with her.
Not spite really. What do you think is gonna happen when you drop a bombshell like this on someone who does not have the slightest clue about your feelings? Is Rachel really going to lean over and say, "Oh Joey honey, I feel the same way about you?". There's a lot of pressure and awkardness at being put on the spot like this. Rachel's gonna have to give a y/n answer. There's no maybe about it.
If Joey hadn't done so, he could come across as selfish.
I hope so. Ross so far appears to be more worried about trivial stuff (like his pink shirt or some stupid dinosaur bone) or his relationship with Mona which really isn't going anywhere either. Joey will get his chance to tell Rachel, not that it's going to make an difference. But Ross certainly needs a kick in the butt.
Their bond is going to be stronger but I don't think it will be in the romantic sense. Rachel will than need 2 pacifiers instead of one if the latter happens. :)
Just like I said in the previous post, even if you knew someone you're entire life as friends, it only takes one moment to suddenly turn that around. And c'mon, if you weren't tingling a little bit when Rachel moaned like that, then I can't help you.
It's still a crush as long as the other person has no clue about it.
I don't expect Rachel to feel the same way immediately, or anyone for that matter. I think Joey's hope for this is that Rachel has deep down also been supressing some sort of feelings for him, but afraid to approach him about it for the same reason Joey is afraid to approach Rachel about it.
Agreed, but is it to be expected that no one can't be even a little selfish? We all are at some point.
Hope so what? That R&R get together, or that it's too late for Joey to tell Rachel?
Oh, really...
I see the smiley face, but you have demonstrated in that joke about calling Joey a baby that
1.) You look down on Joey as a serious love interest 2.) You seriously underestimate Joey's role in this 3.) You are an R&R fan who probably can't handle change too well
I guess here is where we should agree to disagree. You can maintain a distance or off-limits when you've known someone for a long time and not be lead into falling for the opposite person in that friendship especially when you have access to that friend whom you can talk to with without letting the situation get out of hand like Joey falling in love with Rachel. This is not some high school crush but a healthy friendship between two 30 year olds.
But looking at it the other way, Joey's psyche should really be counted in dog years. That should put him within the 3 to 4 year old age group. So yeah, his falling for Rachel in that situation might be totally plausible. Now where did Rachel put the pacifier?
Of course the writers can choose to go that way if they wish to but that would be lead to another major consistency error. I would prefer if Rachel instead helps Joey deal with his feelings for her. The title is after all Friends and as I've mentioned before, it would make an excellent plot for the rest of the season if we get to see how two friends deal with a situation like this, when one does not reciprocate feelings towards the other. It would be interesting to see how they get past this hurdle, trying to remain friends and even strengthening their friendship. They had a girl come between two guys before and I see exciting possibilities here with our two opposite numbers as very often a platonic friendship is ruined or weakened as a result of unrequited love. We've had Monica and Chandler and Ross and Rachel; do we really need to see a Joey and Rachel in a similar vein?
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make was that Joey would not have come this far had he acted in a selfish manner.
I hope so, as in the writers give Ross, the baby's father meaningful storyline. But since you mentioned it; yeah you can include RnR and it being too late for Joey as well.
To paraphrase Joey, "Yeah baby!"
As Sofya estimates Rachel to be between 3 to 10 times more mature than Joey which I completely agree with and Joey's dog year age I would have to say yes.
Joey isn't the father of the baby. Nor is he Rachel's girlfriend and at best I can see is Rachel helping Joey deal with his feeling; I have to say I can't envision a role for Joey in whatever it is you call "this" unless "this" is the friendship between Joey and Rachel. I think you are overestimating Joey's role here.
Yes but I can certainly deal with change. Plus since there are scores of RnR fans out there I believe RnR will end up together in the end. Now as you appear to be someone rooting for Joey, you should hang in there and not light the cigar prematurely.
NARAG, since you apparently have no compunction to sneering down Joey to some kind of immature whore, while in the meantime deifying Ross, I'm sure you won't mind if I include thoughts about what a mindnumbingly whining dweeb the male Gellar has been lately.
My situation wasn't a high school crush either, and that happened to me as well. Love comes in many, many different forms. It can be a rush of feelings that you may had previously subconsicously repressed, or it may be a gradual building of friendship that before you realize it, you really like this person. I think it's a combination of both in this situation, Joey has been getting closer to Rachel in a friendly way since they became roommates, but once he let himself think about Rachel in "that way", he got an incredible rush of feelings about what it might be like in love with her.
I don't know, I'm sure it's wedged in with all of Ross's dinosaur toys. Or maybe, Ross had to hold on to it to keep from squealing about yet another insignificant problem he's having.
The situation was different with Chandler/Joey/Kathy because Kathy 1.) Wasn't in the circle of friends, 2.) Broke up with Chandler just weeks after breaking up with Joey. But you did notice how Joey eventually gallantly stepped back and let Chandler go after Kathy without it ruining their friendship. Maybe Ross will one day grow up and do the same.
As far having a third couple on the show, it may be tired storyline having two people hook up, but it is not near as tiring as one couple get together and break up 15,000 times. It gets to the point where's unrealistic to be that in-and-out of love with someone, and I think the writers are finally realizing that.
Joey had to do what he did if we are to start rooting for him. And with the exception of a few here, we generally are.
Since Joey told her, Ross and Rachel aren't going to hook up soon, if at all.
Do you even bother to notice how much Joey has matured this season? He has gone way up, while over the course of the last few years Ross has severly regressed in maturity. That's the main reason why a lot people don't care to see Ross with Rachel anymore, he has become too immature and whiny for us to seriously believe that Rachel would be interested in him. OTOH, Joey has made such strides in maturity in dealing with the pregnancy that it has now made him a realistic mate for Rachel to have.
You should know by now that this isn't a family-traditional sitcom. Marta and David aren't too high up on "well if the mother pregnant, then the father must marry her" kind of conservative bull. And if I'm overestimating Joey's role, then why has the last 7 or 8 episodes and promos revolved around Joey's relationship with Rachel? Where's Ross in all this?
Well a score is 20 according to my good friend Abe Lincoln. So yes you're right, I'm sure there are around 60 or 80 R&R fans left. ;)
If it helps you to get through your day whom am I to get in your way.
There has been no indication of Joey having previously repressed his
feelings for Rachel. This situation appears to be pretty much a
2-second job. I am not going to quote personal experiences here
except say that one is able to keep in check this "incredible rush of
feelings" between 2 good friends. There are compelling reason and one
of them is the potentially damaging consequences to the friendship
between the pair when the romantic inclinations are not reciprocated
by the other half. In the aftermath, a seemingly innocent peck on
the cheek might be viewed as having romantic connotations. Not many
platonic friendships actually survive a scenario like this. This
isn't about babies or ex-boyfriends either. Joey clearly has not
considered the consequences of his friendship with Rachel as he has
led himself to this point where he's going to put that friendship at
stake. Is Joey going to distance himself if he gets jilted?
But I'm sure Rachel can bring Joey around by taking him to a strip joint. Yeah baby!
That makes sense! Joey must have dropped the pacifier in Ross' apartment after playing with his dinosaur figurines.
Ross needs a straitjacket on occasions to be fair.
You need to re-read my paragraph again. I wasn't making comparisons to past relationships here but was taking about more of a variety. Anyway, in TOW Chandler in a box, Joey had to step back as everyone in the apartment was waiting to see his reaction. He could have come off as a heartless brute if he had persisted in punishing Chandler further.
You wish. In fact, I believe Ross will not get in Joey's way of wanting Rachel.
RnR hooked up and broke up 3 times not 15,000 times. When they do
hook up this time around it will be different and interesting, as
there's a baby girl involved as well. I'm sure the writers are aware
of this. It will be a tired storyline if they do hook Rachel up
with Joey though.
I have to disagree with that statement. There are more RnR fans out there and J&R fans. I've put a link at the end of this post.
I'm not sure what's going to happen next but I wouldn't rule out a RnR reunion.
I've said this in a previous post in this thread, Rachel was living with Joey and naturally if she had problems he'll be the first to hear about it. He had to step aside for Ross as well, otherwise he'll be replacing Ross' role as the father. If Joey did not do any of the above he would have come off looking no less than a jerk. This is not to be confused with maturity. Joey's double proposal to Phoebe than Rachel though sweet underlines his lack of maturity. Clearly he's not boyfriend material for Rachel, IMO. Rachel will have trouble dealing with one let alone two babies.
Yes the lesbian and gay storylines are a dead giveaway. Promos are more likely to mislead than inform particularly this in season. The date episode was a clear evidence of this with Rachel apparently crying on a sober Joey's lap. But as we now know they were watching Cujo. We'll have to see how Ross' role pans as he's no longer with Mona and now has Rachel's living with him.
You might want to look at this site http://www.takiweb.com/~piranha/friendsweb/
The have an ongoing poll on who Rachel should end up with and this is the score thus far.
Ross 58.70 % (172)
Joey 30.72 % (90)
Gunther 6.14 % (18)
No One 4.44 % (13)
This comes to the point to where some people can see foreshadowing, and some people need the idea shoved down their throats before they are to believe it. Has the thought ever occured to you that the writers hinted through "Joey proposing to Rachel, Joey wishing Rachel would stay with him, Joey contemplating, but not having, sex with Rachel, etc." that something like this relationship was on the horizon? And with them being roommates, they naturally had a lot of stories together since the 6th season, so the dynamic has been developed plenty.
I am not going to quote personal experiences here
Well I don't want to give any bits about the show away, but at least the looks from the commercial suggest that the friendship of Joey and Rachel is going to be tested like no other one has before. Unrequited love is much harder for two friends to overcome than a breakup.
Or knowing Ross, he was probably using it while watching the making of saltwater taffy by himself.
More like institutionalized.
Ok, I re-read it, and now it even makes less sense. You make the argument that friendships are often ruined or weakened as a result of unrequited love, then you ask if we really need to see Joey and Rachel in a similar vein as Monica and Chandler or Ross and Rachel.
If you mean "similar vein" as in another couple on the show, I don't think people mind at all, as the show has been averaging just under 29 million viewers since the storyline began. The only shows that have rated higher this season were the first two episodes when we didn't know who the father was.
If you mean "similar vein" as a Joey and Rachel relationship being a retread of the other two, then I have to strongly disagree with you. Never has there been a case of one friend, upon hearing of that the other friend had feelings for him/her, turning the other friend down. When Rachel found out about Ross's feelings, days later she was in love with him. When Ross found out about Rachel's feelings, she dumped Juile quicker than you can say "3 divorces". Chandler and Monica had no courtship, and both had no problem wanting to continue to sleep with each other after London. Sure, they had fights, but never at one time did one friend not love the other upon knowing that the other friend loved them.
Wanna bet?
I thought the 15,000 was obvious hyperbole, but I guess not.
There is almost no way an R&R hookup at this point can be termed "interesting". It may have been interesting if Ross wasn't the father of the child, and yet he still fell in love with Rachel again. But now, the most anyone will feel from this if R&R hooked up was that Ross fulfilled an obligation as the father. Joey falling in love with someone whom he has no obligation to is by far more interesting.
Oooh, can't wait to see this!
Nothing should be ruled out. But since the producers themselves have said how much they like the Joey and Rachel storyline, the only way they I can see them going back on hooking those two up was if there was some severe backlash against the idea. And not only has there not been any backlash to the storyline, but more people are tuning into see it than in previous episodes.
Joey in no way was "trying" to replace the role of father to Ross, in fact he felt crushed when the doctor called him the father in front of Ross. Joey could hardly have come off like a jerk the way he's being set up in this, even if he did want the person he loved to continue to live with him.
Promos are misleading but, 1.) Since 810, every episode has either had Joey and Rachel as it's main storyline, or has had the underlyings of their relationship be the main engine for each show. 2.) What is the purpose of the promos? To get people to watch the show. If they are promoting Joey and Rachel all the time, something must be telling them that people are most interested in these two characters right now, and that is what they try to sell.
Ok first off, this poll comes from a website where basically people can pirate off Friends episodes, so I don't place a high regard on the voters in this poll. And second, as has been mentioned many times before by many people, the NBC poll that hundreds of thousands of mostly average viewers voted on at the NBC website a few weeks ago was won by Joey and Rachel.
Which poll do you think the NBC honchos would take more seriously? The one that hundreds of thousands voted on in which they themselves administered, or one that less than 300 people voted on a website to trade episodes?
Foreshadowing is a prediction of a possible outcome and not necessarily the only outcome. The current plot involving R&J can be a harbinger to a possible R&R rekindling as well or a host of other possibilities. Hence my earlier statement that we should agree to disagree as we obviously stand on opposite sides of the fence without the unpleasantness of having to shove ideas down each others throats. I hope this isn't too difficult a concept for you to comprehend.
Something was definitely up but it does not mean an R&J romantic interlude. As I've mentioned several time before, the "relationship" is strictly platonic at this stage because it takes 2 not 1 person to mutually agree to take that friendship to the next level. There has been plenty of dynamism between the two but I'm afraid, IMO, the stories they have shared since season 6 up to episode 812 does not hint at any pending romance at large and even then from Joey's POV only.
This is why I said it might be a better storyline than pairing them up in a similar vein to RnR or MnC.
Well some people might get turned on by the idea. Didn't Ross watch the documentary with Rachel? No wonder Joey looking for that pacifier.
I can help it if you can't comprehend what you read. I was very clear one what "similar vein" meant, that this not becomes another budding romance between J&R like RnR or MnC. There are two possible outcomes in 816. The beginning of a romantic pairing if the answer is yes, or the strain on friendship if the answer is no. I prefer the former.
There is a first time for everything. Just because Rachel and Ross became a couple and Monica and Chandler had sex and became a couple does not automatically mean Joey and Rachel are going to be couple.
Ross is certainly not going to tell Joey to lay off Rachel. But if he chooses instead to fight for Rachel there is nothing wrong or immature about that. What exactly are we betting on first? Then we can setup the ground rules.
Most of what i was reading appeared to be hyperbole. Why should I treat this an different?
I think it will be interesting. Plus there is no telling how viewers will react when Rachel is holding Ross' baby girl in her arms flirting with Joey. For what you suggest to be plausible Ross may have to get custody of the baby as quite frankly I don't envision Ross being the father to two children none of whom he gets to live with. I can say this categorically, Crane and Kauffman will not let this be Ross' fate.
= Actually I remember both Kauffman and Crane having said they are fans of RnR as well. I would guess that most people are tuning in to find out what happens next. The idea of R&J might be good for ratings possibly because viewers might be expecting to see how Ross reacts or if it develops into a triangle. But hooking them up and having them ride off into the sunset at the end of season nine is not something I believe is going to happen.
I never used the word "trying" and I'm not sure where you picked that out from; what I did say was Joey "had to" step aside for Ross or wind up looking no less than the jerk. And Joey felt guilty about Ross missing out. If Joey wanted to continue living with "the person he loved" he could have had the chance to do so by coming clean with Rachel about his feelings. He was not prepared to do and hence his not stepping aside for the baby's father would have made him look like a jerk.
That's why they are called promos; to market the show. Unfortunately the promos have little bearing on the storylines except to get the audience excited.
These people still have the right to their opinions, regardless of what you may think of them. Plus the polls are essential different with one asking for favorite couple and the other who Rachel should end up with. Had the latter been asked on an NBC poll the results might very well be different.
Let us look at the NBC polls as well. The question I believe was who your favorite couple (of the moment) is.
The results were:
Joey and Rachel 36% Monica and Chandler 16% Ross and Rachel 34% Joey and Phoebe 13%
With R&J winning by 2 % after being exclusively promoted since 810
while Ross was with Mona then. I missed this poll btw. But how many
of the 36% are really rooting for J&R or were swayed in yet another
intriguing development? More importantly there remains the 34% of
RnR fans despite the exclusive promotion of R&J.
If there were a couple of RnR storyline in the work is will be interesting to see what the results might then be.
Foreshadowing is a prediction of a possible outcome and not necessarily the only outcome. The current plot involving R&J can be a harbinger to a possible R&R rekindling as well or a host of other possibilities. Hence my earlier statement that we should agree to disagree as we obviously stand on opposite sides of the fence without the unpleasantness of having to shove ideas down each others throats. I hope this isn't too difficult a concept for you to comprehend.
Something was definitely up but it does not mean an R&J romantic interlude. As I've mentioned several time before, the "relationship" is strictly platonic at this stage because it takes 2 not 1 person to mutually agree to take that friendship to the next level. There has been plenty of dynamism between the two but I'm afraid, IMO, the stories they have shared since season 6 up to episode 812 does not hint at any pending romance at large and even then from Joey's POV only.
This is why I said it might be a better storyline than pairing them up in a similar vein to RnR or MnC.
Well some people might get turned on by the idea. Didn't Ross watch the documentary with Rachel? No wonder Joey looking for that pacifier.
I can help it if you can't comprehend what you read. I was very clear one what "similar vein" meant, that this not becomes another budding romance between J&R like RnR or MnC. There are two possible outcomes in 816. The beginning of a romantic pairing if the answer is yes, or the strain on friendship if the answer is no. I prefer the former. **** typo error it should read latter not former. *****
There is a first time for everything. Just because Rachel and Ross became a couple and Monica and Chandler had sex and became a couple does not automatically mean Joey and Rachel are going to be couple.
Ross is certainly not going to tell Joey to lay off Rachel. But if he chooses instead to fight for Rachel there is nothing wrong or immature about that. What exactly are we betting on first? Then we can setup the ground rules.
Most of what i was reading appeared to be hyperbole. Why should I treat this an different?
I think it will be interesting. Plus there is no telling how viewers will react when Rachel is holding Ross' baby girl in her arms flirting with Joey. For what you suggest to be plausible Ross may have to get custody of the baby as quite frankly I don't envision Ross being the father to two children none of whom he gets to live with. I can say this categorically, Crane and Kauffman will not let this be Ross' fate.
= Actually I remember both Kauffman and Crane having said they are fans of RnR as well. I would guess that most people are tuning in to find out what happens next. The idea of R&J might be good for ratings possibly because viewers might be expecting to see how Ross reacts or if it develops into a triangle. But hooking them up and having them ride off into the sunset at the end of season nine is not something I believe is going to happen.
I never used the word "trying" and I'm not sure where you picked that out from; what I did say was Joey "had to" step aside for Ross or wind up looking no less than the jerk. And Joey felt guilty about Ross missing out. If Joey wanted to continue living with "the person he loved" he could have had the chance to do so by coming clean with Rachel about his feelings. He was not prepared to do and hence his not stepping aside for the baby's father would have made him look like a jerk.
That's why they are called promos; to market the show. Unfortunately the promos have little bearing on the storylines except to get the audience excited.
These people still have the right to their opinions, regardless of what you may think of them. Plus the polls are essential different with one asking for favorite couple and the other who Rachel should end up with. Had the latter been asked on an NBC poll the results might very well be different.
Let us look at the NBC polls as well. The question I believe was who your favorite couple (of the moment) is.
The results were:
Joey and Rachel 36% Monica and Chandler 16% Ross and Rachel 34% Joey and Phoebe 13%
With R&J winning by 2 % after being exclusively promoted since 810
while Ross was with Mona then. I missed this poll btw. But how many
of the 36% are really rooting for J&R or were swayed in yet another
intriguing development? More importantly there remains the 34% of
RnR fans despite the exclusive promotion of R&J.
If there were a couple of RnR storyline in the work is will be interesting to see what the results might then be.
I take it that posting this twice was an effort to get your point across? :)
I'm afraid you are not one to talk about having difficulty understanding a concept.
If the J&R story was to be a harbinger to an R&R reunion, Ross would have been involved in this storyline much more so than he has, and he wouldn't be portrayed as more of an obstacle for Joey to be with Rachel, rather than Ross wanting to be with Rachel.
How many times this season has Ross and Rachel both said they aren't in love with each other? I could seriously bring up every scene this season if you want me to, but the writers are repeatedly establishing that Joey is not getting in the middle of any R&R get-together because there is NO get-together. And on the other hand, how many times has Rachel said this season that Joey has been so "supportive", "protective", "sweet" to her since she's been pregnant?
Joey is love with Rachel. Rachel is not in love with Joey. This is soon to be fact. But as for beyond this episode, I'll take my chances with a 50% lovefest for J&R over a 0% lovefest for R&R any day.
Maybe Rachel, like yourself, has so looked down on Joey as someone who could ever be a serious love interest that the thought hasn't even crossed her mind that Joey could ever feel like that for someone. Maybe she will learn along with you, that what Joey is feeling is more serious than a typical Joey moment. If Rachel stops to think after she rejects him of what Joey has done so far for her in her pregnancy, she'll come around.
And you don't need hinting of a relationship for it to happen. See: Monica and Chandler.
As I recall, Rachel was forced to watch it, along with a documentary on the middle ages. And didn't she find that to be incredibly boring?
Maybe it might help if you can write a little more clearly. You said unrequited love, and then immediately bring up R&R and M&C. Unless you seperate your points here, one reading this would easily think the two are interrelated. And you could have spared reposting this entire message to correct a point that I already knew is not what you meant.
Yes, but is it happy feelings when someone gets his heart broken? I know R&R fans would be dancing in the aisles, but for those who actually care about Joey's plight, love that is not eventually returned is going to be a very sad story for those who like him to endure. Not really sitcom material if you ask me.
If he decided to go for Rachel just so she didn't end up with Joey, then he would come off as an incredible jerk, even if he's the father. This revelation by Joey is going to change the ground rules for all three people, and for Ross needing Joey to show interest in Rachel in order for him to seems a little disingenuous.
And I don't bet bills, but you can buy the next drink. ;)
J&R opinions considered hyperbole? That's rich.
And speaking of hyperbole...I don't think Rachel will take the time to flirt with Joey while she has the baby in her arms. There's no need to even flirt at this point, they know where each person stands.
But I must say, I can't wait to read all of the posts of the Ross-shippers if they do have Ross having 2 children out of wedlock tacked onto his 3 divorces. You can't get much more pathetic than that, unless they just show him playing with his dinosaur toys by himself in the 9th season, while Joey and Rachel begin a courtship.
David Crane said in an article this week for the New York Times about how all the critical choices they have made this season have really driven the show to new heights this season. He specifically was quoted as saying that "we really liked" the idea of Joey and Rachel, so I don't know how much of R&R fans they are anymore.
And if the idea of J&R might be good for ratings like you said, then why would they not use it? Isn't the whole point of television to try to draw in as many viewers as possible???
You complain that the J&R story is happening too fast, but then you say that since he wasn't immediately prepared to tell Rachel that he loved her that she needed to move out. If they are to begin a courtship, they can't seriously do it as roommates, so maybe in retrospect this will be the main reason why they had Rachel move in with Ross, using the appropriate excuse that Ross wants to be more involved as a father.
If people didn't get excited about the idea of Joey and Rachel, no one would watch it. The fact that people are excited about it is a good sign about it's future.
Well, you tacked on that "of the moment" bit, but anyway...
Well...this poll was taken the day after 813-TOW Chandler Takes a Bath aired. As I recall, that was a heavy R&R episode with them finding out about the sex of the baby, and Joey having only a very small role worrying about his newfound feelings. If this poll was taken after 812 or 814 or 815 aired, J&R could have won by much wider margins than this, so the fact they still won after an R&R episode shows that the support for Joey and Rachel isn't just a flavor of the month variety.
You wish. Actually it was to correct an error. The post shows up on Google which I use only a few hours later therefore the only way to correct the typo was to re-submit the original post with the correction. I figured one additional post relating to the topic wouldn't hurt given the Jew and rapper bashing that occurs almost daily here.
The J&R storyline is at its infancy currently being played out in Joey's head with both Rachel and Ross completely unaware. A harbinger as in Ross finding out about Joey's feelings for Rachel that may rekindle his own feelings and he night decide that Rachel is ultimately the one for him, lets her know how he feels about her and RnR getting back together for good somewhere in season 9. I'll wager this happens but of course this is one possibility and a plausible one but the fate of which lies in the hands of the creative team. And I don't think Ross has been an obstacle in any way, unless you are referring to him being the baby's father as an obstacle.
In this season, Rachel did come close to sharing that coffee at Central Perk with Ross one evening after he had just cheered her up and had Mona not been there, Rachel would not have turned and then leave disappointed. Ross and Rachel had some animosity between them in season 4 but look who went running to London to stop the wedding. Apparently it was Rachel's idea to get married in Vegas as well. Ross's refrained seeking a divorce not to avoid divorce number 3 which he insisted was the reason but as it turned out he still had feelings for Rachel. So there IS going to be a RnR get-together.
So? My grandma says her pet poodle is "supportive", "protective" and "sweet" all the time as well.
That's fair enough. Personally I give Rachel and Joey 30% and Ross and Rachel at 150% chance of ending up together.
Nothing can be ruled out but I would fancy Joey's chances even more if he gets a brain transplant like the character he plays on that show Drake.
It also does not mean that it happened to Monica and Chandler it will also happen between Rachel and Joey.
The woman can't say what she means. I bet she loved it. She seduced and slept with Ross on top of MnC's wedding invitations and proceeds to say can't believe she's having a baby with him.
Try reading it now as its in point form.
We have not had a storyline where one friend says no to the other.
Therefore :
Unrequited love as in Rachel saying no to Joey is better than
A same angle plot (a.k.a similar vein) such as
* Monica and Chandler or Ross and Rachel where they were mutually agreeable.
Hope that is clear enough.
It isn't funny but unrequited love is an event that happens to most of us. And the writers will go down this route without including some lighthearted moments. Take a cue from TOW Nana Dies Twice its was the Geller's grandma's funeral; no one wants a loved one to die but it does happen inevitably but that didn't stop the episode from having its share of funny moments. Incidentally it was also the first time an intoxicated Ross says he loves Rachel before passing out on her lap.
I don't think Ross will wind up with Rachel for the wrong reasons. What Joey's revelations might do is have Ross examine his feelings for Rachel. Cause in the event Rachel does hook up with Joey, he must know that there can't be a Ross and Rachel anymore. You have to remember this is the guy who has had a crush on Rachel since the ninth grade.
If Joey does wind up with Rachel in the end I'll buy you the next drink but I'm afraid I've to see your driver's license first before handing you that drink. ;)
Most opinions on future untold events like the ones we are discussing do wind up being hyperbole and it's not only for J&R but RnR as well. There is nothing rich about that.
You can consider this to be a bona fide hyperbole cause there is no chance in hell of this being the final outcome.
Rachel and Joey is the new exciting thing, so naturally there will be a lot of people interested in that. How may of these people are the same ones that were interested in the RnR at the beginning of the season? TV Guide called Ross and Rachel the greatest couple in TV history but a few editions later was seen talking about the exciting possibility of J&R. What it illustrates is there is a substantial percentage of voters who can be influenced by an interesting storyline that does not necessarily have to be J&R. Further the folks have been in the J&R camp for a few weeks, while there will be a substantial number in the RnR camp that will be rooting for them no matter how the plot pans out. Crane and Kauffman I'm sure, will not want to ignore this group.
Where exactly did I complain that J&R story is happening too fast? If anything I've said it has yet to happen.
Actually I have been talking about this particular point from the characters POV all along and not what the writers want or will have them do.
Friends have always been a top rated show with many people tuning in even before JnR and this new development will naturally capture the imagination of folks and be good for ratings just like any other fresh story line. If the writers come up with a funny and touching RnR episode, I'll wager the poll results will be different and the ratings will be just as high if not higher.
Yes that's right and why I kept it in brackets, because I would love to examine the results of another poll conducted by NBC.
Not by a long shot. The margin was a slim 2%. In 813, RnR were driving each other up the wall with baby names and its sex and Rachel towards the end saying "I can't believe I'm having the baby with you". Not your quintessential RnR episode I'm afraid. If anything it did further damage to RnR. Therefore unless the writers have decided it's the end of RnR, which I doubt is the case, a good RnR episode will definitely influence the poll result. So far its been a cakewalk for JnR. Therefore it should not be taken for granted that a majority of people will still want JnR if there is great RnR storyline in the works. Btw, TOW prom video has the highest couple rating of the show and that's RnR. Kauffman and Crane know the potential of RnR.
Correct me if I'm wrong but when this poll was posted on angels someone went to the NBC site again and said the margin had just dropped to 1%...either way...1% or 2% is a very, very small margin
Well, the tone of your post makes it so obvious which side of the fence you fall on, so everyone reading could have pretty well figured out what you meant without having to repost the entire thing.
This story has been played up from Joey's POV, so of course Ross is going to be viewed as the obstacle, because it was the major thing that kept him from confessing his feelings to Rachel. Ross's complaints about not being around when baby things happen, while unintentional, did make Joey feel guilty. When he did the honorable thing of asking Rachel to move in with Ross, that just made most everyone root for him more.
Or I guess those people that have a heart...
That episode showed that Ross was moving on with life, and when Rachel came back into Central Perk to think about falling back into that relationship, she also realized it was time to move on. Kind of funny how all of this Joey and Rachel fun began almost immediately after this episode, isn't it?
Yeah, but unlike Mr. Tribbiani, her pet poodle can't provide an income, a loving friendship, great sex, or serve as a fatherly figure. Unless there's something you wish to share with us. :)
No kidding. 150%?
Sigh...it's a good thing to see you are not above resorting to "dumb Joey" jokes.
And since when do you need to have smarts to be in love anyway? Even Forrest Gump was able to discover true love with Jenny.
Yeah, but it completely and totally disproves your whole point that there needed to be development, which was it's intended effect.
No, please not this. Not more of this "Rachel really is totally in love with Ross, she just doesn't want to admit it" baloney. Stop looking for double meanings in everything that these two characters say! She finds Ross's interests to be incredibly boring, always has. OTOH, she finds Joey's profession as an actor on a soap opera to be incredibly exciting. She jumped at the chance to be his date at the Soapie Awards last year.
Color me impressed.
Oh yes, we had as much invested in an unseen Nana dying as we do of Joey getting his heart broken. Please...
Which is EXACTLY why what Joey is feeling for Rachel at this point in his life is much more significant. Ross's love for Rachel was the derivative of a childhood crush on the popular girl in school, when he was way too young to understand what true love entails. Now, Joey in his early 30's is having these deep feelings for Rachel, and to have feelings for a woman that has that much baggage on her is saying something. Ross never had to deal with that baggage when he went after Rachel.
I'm legal in all 180 countries.
Hyperbole is making blatant exaggerations in an effort to get a point across. I don't see any hyperbole in any of my statements, with the obvious intended exception.
Why not? It would provide a lot comedic moments for Ross to try to tell Mona or his next girlfriend all of the baggage he's carrying. It's provided some funny moments in the last episode when Mona found out that Rachel is living with him.
Well this seems like a stupidly obvious point, but I'll go ahead and say it. If Joey and Rachel hooked up in the first season, I'm sure there would have been a "substantial number" in their camp today.
Look at it from an advertising standpoint. The reason companies are so high up on the 18-49 age demo is that research has shown that these people are more likely to change their mind when it comes to switching brands of a product. Therefore, advertisers believe the more people in this age group they advertise to, the better their chances are of selling their product. Apply it to the J&R/R&R camp. I'm positive that Marta, David, and Kevin and the companies are thrilled that so many people are accepting of this major love interest shift, as it shows that a lot of open minded people watch the show, which is a good sign for advertisers. And if the producers say they like it, it's going to stay.
You said at the top of this message that the J&R relationship was a "2 second job." Maybe I was wrong for assuming that 2 seconds is considered to be fast...
You keep saying IF the writers do a good R&R storyline. The fact is, they haven't lately, and with the success of the last few episodes and what is laying ahead, I don't think the writers are in any hurry to beat that dead horse again.
You're right. People were voting for J&R when they REALLY wanted R&R back together.
Not all of these people that voted are from Florida, you realize.
In regards to the TOW Prom Video being the highest rated couple show, wait until Thursday. With the show averaging just under 29 million viewers since the storyline began, and with the pivotal episode being advertised every night to hundreds of millions of people during the Olympics, TOW Joey Tells Rachel may easily clear the 35 million viewers that TOW Prom Video received. Then, that will yet be another feather in the cap for me.
This was in 805. Just a few episodes (805), Rachel was more than happy to help Ross sort out his problems with Mona. She looked on happily while they kissed. If she still had "feelings" for him, I don't think she would have helped out; She would have shaved Mona's head.
You say that you don't want stories with a similar vein but you want to see Ross and Rachel break up and make up over and over again? The R&R relationship is a dead horse, there's no point beating it.
Rachel's always looked at Ross as a fallback option. She got frustrated one night and he was there. No love there, sorry. Besides, Rachel's got a habit of going back and sleeping with old boyfriends (Barry, Paulo, Ross). She wanted to sleep with Joey in 811 but he turned her down. When has Ross ever had the conviction to do that? Joey can handle Rachel; Ross never could. 813 only proved that these two cannot agree on anything without cribbing about it so much. This is the sort of behaviour that made many R&R fans lose interest in the couple in the first place.
She lied to her dad about Ross refusing to marry her. Daddy shows up at Ross apartment and yells at him in front of Mona. Rachel was obliged to help Ross out because she had lied, made him look no less than a jerk in front of daddy and Mona and was on the verge of ruining it for him with Mona. I figure under those circumstances whatever feelings she had for him would have taken a back seat to resolving the problems she had just helped create.
Actually JnR will be in a similar vein as it represents yet another combination of couples between the group with them having to go through basically the usual rituals of courtship even though the storylines might be different. Or is it going to be fast forwarded to Joey saying "how ya doin?" and pouncing on Rachel.
As for Ross and Rachel they are going to have a baby girl and I would love to see how they deal with the baby and their situation going forward given their past experiences, work out their difference, realise how much they mean to each other and live happily ever after with the baby girl of course. I know it sounds clich� but it can make for a funny yet touching storyline. Besides I believe that vision Ross described to Joey about the blonde woman (Rachel) and his baby girl reading the papers in bed in the morning will come true.
I have to disagree with that. RnR is not dead not by a long shot. They had a great scene at the sonogram and TV Guide did after all name them the greatest tv couple. So Joey's going to be a temporary diversion.
If Ross was just a fallback option, nevermind their history together, Rachel did not even remotely entertain Joey as one. In TOW Proposal she got Joey over a draw with Phoebe but they decided to switch.
Its not a fair to assume that is it? She did sleep with him and there was no indication she did it cause she was frustrated. So its either she was horny or deep down may still have feelings for him.
She was in the process of making it out on her own after she had dumped her fianc� Barry. So there's got to be extenuating circumstances for her sleeping with him once. She did it with Paulo to get over Ross or I suspect to make him jealous. Ross what can I say, she can't keep her hands of him.
Watch 811 again. Rachel says no first. Plus she looked like she wanted to do it with every guy in that episode except Chandler.
Since when did Ross become a monk? A gal he likes wants to sleep with him, he's not taking advantage of her in anyway. Why on earth should he refrain? Joey wasn't going to say no to sex with Rachel either in TOW the Bag
Joey can't even handle his crush for Rachel let alone Rachel.
They've had that problem as early as the forth year. Did not seem to stop them though. Besides great passions often pack a wallop.
Agree. But look at the poll figures they are almost equally split
between RnR and JnR. And if you look at the other poll I think Ross
still leads by over 30%. I reckon it will be in the high 80% if
Crane/Kauffman/Bright get their act together.
But Ross having to see how one of his best friends gets to be the father of his baby IS sitcom material?? The whole situation is not sitcom material, since one of the guys is going to get seriously hurt in the end, which BTW is why I dislike this situation so much. I dont want any of the main characters to get hurt like this - and I like both Ross and Joey on an equal level...
I dont think Joey let Chandler out of the box because he felt otherwise his friends would think of him as heartless but rather because he thought it was the right thing to do for his friend. And this does indeed blend in nicely with what he did in the recent episodes, like suggesting Rachel move out or talking to Ross first. There seem to be a lot of people who seem to think of Joey as a dumb ass macho, but one cannot ignore the fact that he is the one out of the six who is least likely to do anything bad to his friends. He is like the "�ber-Friend".
anyway, less than a week to go till we all find out.... ;-)
Sexual attraction maybe...will she go on another date w/ Joey...i don't know.
I'm sure if the writers can have him fall in love in 2 split seconds they can have him grow "out" of love just as easily so i'm sure a RnR relationship is inevitable.
I'd say they are about equal except Rachel is 3 to 10 times more mature.
There is only one possible answer: no. So Rachel wanted to sleep with him after TOW Ross' Step Forward...but if after the date she didn't have feelings for him then Joey telling her about his feelings will do nothing also.
for a
shyness,
Rachel should have moved out as soon as she found out she was pregnant. Talking to Ross was a must...he is after all his friend
Exactly.
it slowly
express
you
relationship
Nooo...i think you need a kick in the butt for saying something so ridiculous. Ross has done nothing wrong. He deserves to go through(not miss anthing) the pregnancy with Rachel and thats why i'm so glad she's moving in with him. He did the right thing by proposing to her(although not in the most pleasant tone). He's a great father and Rachel should feel very lucky that her(their) baby girl will have Ross as her father. If Rachel can go on dates while she is pregnant I think that Ross has the right to think and worry about his relationship with Mona.
I think it was a date between 2 good friends. There didn't appear to be anything sexual between them. Come to think of it all Joey's really given Rachel after the date has been diarrhea.
Yeah baby! Did he ever manage to get the bathroom lock installed?
Actually Rachel wanted to sleep with anything in a pair of pants that eppy. Even with all that hormones running high, Joey didn't stand a chance.
She wanted to actually. Had Ross offered her a place she probably would have accepted but he was involved in yet another meaningless relationship.
The proposal aside, which I personally though was a lovable and funny RnR scene, plus Ross has been great with Ben and all but in this particular situation with Rachel, Ross had not got his priorities right. He really needs to put in effort by being there for Rachel and his child.
At present, to be fair, Joey seems to be getting more likable. He took the initiative and offered to step aside for the father. He has been around to take care of Rachel as well. All the plus points.
Ross on the other hand if future spoilers are accurate, is going to be doing his frivolous, mindless routine again. Being the father of Rachel's baby is no guarantee Ross will wind up with Rachel. How is he expected to end up with Rachel if this keeps up?
The more points Joey scores and the less involved and likable Ross becomes, the more remote the possibility of an RnR reunion. The writers must know they can't swing the RnR relationship at the last minute and expect it to stick.
I can't figure why Ross is made to look no less than a dweeb. I did not agree with this before but now I'm starting to think that perhaps the writers frown upon DS and hence his character is made to suffer the ignominy.
It was an injoke from the show Narag. BTW, where are you from? I'm curious because you're name seems to have Indian feel to it :)
Here's an excerpt from 218 TOW Drake Ramore Dies.
Scene: Central Perk. Joey enters with several magazines and runs up to Phoebe.]
JOEY: Phoebs, check it out, check it out, check it out, check it out.
PHOEBE: Oh, ooh, Soap Opera Digest, oh that's one of my favorite digests.
JOEY: Page 42, page 42, page 42.
PHOEBE: Ok, ok, ok. Ooh, hey 'new doc on the block, Days of Our Lives' Joey Tribbiani.' Ooh, cool picture.
JOEY: Ooh, I look good.
PHOEBE: Hey is this true, that you write a lot of your own lines?
JOEY: Uh, well, kinda yeah. Like, remember last week when Alex was in the accident? Well the line in the script was, 'If we don't get this woman to a hospital, she's going to die.' But I made it, ' If this woman doesn't get to a hospital, she's not gonna live.'
PHOEBE: Ohh, ok, I see what you did there. Aren't you afraid though, that the writers are gonna be kinda mad when they read this?
JOEY: Huh? Never really thought about the writers. The scripts just kinda come to my house. But you know what? This makes me look good, which makes the show look good, which makes the writers look good so how could they be mad about that?
[Scene: At a writer's desk. The writer is working on a script for Days of Our Lives.]
WRITER: Makes up most of his lines. Son-of-a-. Yeah, well, write this jerkweed.
[Scene: Joey's apartment. The next script is being delivered.]
JOEY: I fall down an elevator shaft? What the hell does this mean, I fall down an elevator shaft?
-o-
I was just saying that DS is looking really bad these days cos he might have bragged about writing his own lines like Joey did. :)