Well I'm sorry but I just can't figure some of you out anymore. I cannot believe the complaints I'm reading here. People complain that R&R are dead. Tonight they give us some reason to hope, and people STILL aren't happy. Writing it off as been there done that. If these two are EVER going to get back together, it has to start somewhere doesn't it? Think about it. Claire, I agree with one point you made. It's * so* obvious that Rachel is still in love with Ross. If the writers had no plans to EVER put these two back together, why haven't either of them been involved in a serious relationship? When was the last time Rachel even had an actual date? People can speculate all you want. But the truth is that NONE of you know what the writers have planned down the road. None of you. IMHO it's your pessimistic assumptions that seems to be clouding opinions on what was clearly a very strong effort tonight. Just because the show has struggled lately doesn't mean they shouldn't get credit when they deserve it. They deserved it tonight.
Again, please I mean no offense to anyone. This is just my opinion. Fire away if you like. I'm going to sleep ;)
The problem may be that this R & R sweeps "tease" has happened soooo many times before. I don't know what the writers are planning but why oh why don't they let these two finally ACTUALLY get together? I did like this episode more than most of the others this season but it's realllllly frustrating when R & R are put back in the "closet" as soon as sweeps are over! Will the writers surprise us this time? Maybe but I doubt it! The writers might also be waiting to see if there will be a 7th season to determine how the story will go. If there's going to be one, then R & R can be strung out longer (yuck). If no 7th season, then they would probably have to wrap it all up pretty quickly. They may want to keep their options open by not involving either one in another relationship right now.
I have a question: has *anyone* considered the fact that *maybe* this is meant to be taken as the first part of a two-part episode, and as such maybe shouldn't be taken as the be-all and end-all of everything? I understand that people are frustrated because the same thing's happened AGAIN (I know I am), but can I point out that we've not actually seen how it actually turns out yet - for all everyone knows, it could turn out to be very different to the usual cycle of events [1]. So *maybe* could everyone kinda stop jumping the gun and attacking various characters for various things until *after* we actually see how it turns out next week? You never know, you may be surprised.
Tina
[1] Spoiler space for next week's ep...
s p o i l e r
s p a c e
s p o i l e r
s p a c e
...It *will* turn out significantly differently.
I'll just go crawl back into my shell now, seeing as I'm probably going to get attacked for expressing differing views and *trying* to be the voice of reason now.
Yup. I'm reserving judgment until I see part two. There are multiple shoes in the air and none has yet dropped. It's not proper to count the holes in the ground until they do.
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Jonathan Roberts doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
Well, not exactly my metaphor of choice, but yeah, that's pretty much my point. Reserve judgement until we've seen both parts - that's what I'm going to (attempt to) do.
Tina, I've seen the same spoilers you have. Rachel succeeds in convincing Ross to send Jill away. He says he did it so someday he might have a shot at dating Rachel again. Rachel looks pleased, but she doesn't admit her feelings. And in the next episode, the writers deliberately veer as far away from the topic as they possibly can.
Final score: Rachel's jealousy and possessiveness - 4
Ross' attempts to get on with his life - 0
Ross and Rachel fans - screwed again.
My comments have been building over time and emerged coincident with this episode. When Rachel matter-of-factly blurted out to the whole world that she doesn't want Ross dating anyone else, and then only as a sidebar to saying how she especially didn't want him to date her sister, something inside me snapped. She felt free, and perhaps even proud, to state this bit of unsurpassed arrogance and selfishness, and NO ONE is going to call her on it ever. It was kind of an instinctive feeling that just hit me and left me cold.
I am interested to see what happens next week because I know that the spoilers didn't tell us everything. For instance I never got the impression that Rachel first advised Jill to go out with Ross (only because she thought Jill would never actually do it), and that Jill wasn't about to until she sensed that Rachel still had feelings for Ross.
But how this two-parter resolves the questions that were raised in part 1 really doesn't change much for me. The questions that part 1 raised were nowhere near as important as the questions that *should* be raised.
Tina, I have yet to see anyone attack you for anything, so I really am at a loss to explain why you are so gun-shy. Really, it doesn't become you. You are much more appreciated than you are willing to admit.
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, James Squire doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
Well, given that anyone who *liked* the episode seems to be getting generally yelled at here lately, can you blame me? I have a rule of completely blanking out people's opinions and not letting them influence my opinion of the episode, but right now I can't help thinking that if I like the episode when I see it I'm going to get yelled at because liking it isn't the general consensus here. I understand people are frustrated, but to be honest I'm not surprised this place seems largely negative, because the people who *did* like it are probably afraid they're going to get yelled at the same as I am.
Tina, nobody is getting yelled at, except possibly the writing staff of Friends. There's a difference between me telling Robert that I don't agree with him and me telling Robert that I'm angry with him for enjoying the episode. I wish I could share his optimism, and I sincerely hope he's right and I'm wrong. I've just been burned too many times.
And indeed, the part of the episode I actually *didn't like*, and didn't find entertaining, was the Chandler/Monica sickathon. The Ross/Rachel thing was actually funny and entertaining. It's just so much like the Emily fiasco that I find it unsettling. The episode itself is fine. It's the history that's uncomfortable.
Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Claire Abraham doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...
Same here. All I'm trying to point out is that possibly the writers want us to take it as a two-part episode instead of two seperate episodes, and that maybe we should all wait until we see the second part before judging the characters. That's what I'm attempting to do, anyway. I think you know I can either be impossibly optimistic or impossibly cynical about it - it's just that I see this as possibly something to be optimistic about, if only because of the second part. If I thought it was something to be negative about, you *know* that you'd know all about it. :)
Ah. The problem is, I can see why people like Robert would think there's no pleasing people here, but I can also see your POV. (I'm a Rational Person (tm). :)) Me, I'm just happy that there finally seems to be some R&R movement, no matter how it comes about - admittedly, I'm not fond of this particular twist, but I just see it as a catalyst for an R&R dynamic - which is probably how the writers see it as well. (I have faith they're going to deal with it after the fantasy ep, after that EW thing I posted yesterday - it just seems as though they're keeping quiet for a reason. And I'm happy about the fact BKC have *finally* acknowledged that we're not going to go away, if nothing else.)
Yes, I've heard, um... varied things about the C&M stuff - I think it's one of those things you either love or you hate. A lot of fans on both sides appear to have disliked it, though - I think people are generally acknowledging that they're now in a full-on slump with C&M.
Tina - who, after going on a shopping spree today, has come to terms with her inevitable fate - I *am* the fourth sister of the Green family. :)
I found the sickathon to be absolutely annoying. CCA was over-acting and it looked as though someone should shove some food down her throat and not worry so much about the vaporub.
That's just it, I don't know who you are talking about here. Who has been yelling? Several of us have expressed our frustration quite firmly, and *then* people who like the episode have said so and then told us they think we are too cynical.
Folks, this is called "business as usual". For myself, all I've been doing is defending my assessment of the show against arguments that my view is too cynical. If I bore the slightest malice for anyone who has been arguing with me, please rest assured I would not give you the time of day. *That* attitude I save for the spammers.
I did look at a couple of my recent posts and noted that I typed parts of a couple of sentences in ALL CAPS. If that's what you meant by yelling, I'll try to do better in the future.
All I've seen is people expressing their dislike for the latest episode. That is not the same thing as attacking those who liked it.
I guess I'll try to give my personal perspective on this. ; - )
cannot
aren't
I think much of what you are seeing on this newsgroup is a lot of frustration. I think that if this episode had been aired earlier, say, in Season 4 or something, the reaction to the R&R spin may have been a bit more positive. The thing that has annoyed a lot of people here is indeed that it has been done many times before but also that, each time, the anticipated prize has been snatched away without any clear reason or explanation. Sure, it would be nice to think that Jill's introduction into the fold would spur a reconciliation between Ross and Rachel, just as it would have been nice back when they got married under the influence, when Ross spoke the wrong name at the wedding, when Ross entered Rachel's room at the beach house, and so on. But, in each case, the hopes have been dashed away, sometimes without any real justification - and often times the storyline shelved for long periods of time afterwards (look at the amount of actual interaction between R&R during most of season 5; except for at the beginning and end, very little of substance).
The writers on this show have a long history of pulling out storylines (particularly this one) for effect when they feel it is needed to peak interest but then letting it drop once it has served its purpose. Most R&R fans are tired and frustrated by this teasing act. A horse will chase after a carrot it can never get for only so long before it will lose its motivation and enthusiasm. The R&R reconciliation is the prize carrot, and we R&R fans are essentially the horse.
For what it is worth, I actually liked this episode a fair bit more than most this season. Generally, I now just try to take each episode for what it is and not concern myself too much with the long term plans or implications for what happens in any one episode (the writers don't seem to care too much about focusing on realism or continuity in any case). Thus, if there is any thing close to chemistry occurring between R&R in any given episode, I truly relish the moment. But don't think for a minute that I expect it to lead to anything substantial. I have learned from past experience even if these two characters have not. To continue my above analogy, you might say that I merely look at the carrot and appreciate it for its current beauty. I don't preoccupy myself with whether I will actually get it or not down the road.
Hmmm. I started off on a good note, I thought, but now I am not so sure. I guess what I am really trying to say here is that R&R fans are just disillusioned. They don't believe that these current events will lead to an R&R reunion and, to a certain extent, their disbelief is justified. You only have to look back at the trail of wreckage left behind from previous seasons.
If these two are EVER
I am sure that a lot of people would like to believe this IS the start of something. But the writers have set us up before on this plotline and we have been chopped off at the knees for having fallen for it. Many have grown much more wary about expecting anything. Maybe some of us are just too afraid to believe.
Think
But this has also been obvious in the past. Look at the few episodes before the trip to London and the early episodes of season 5. She even went so far as to explicitly state it to Ross at one point in Central Perk. Then, her love was instantly withdrawn or curbed, dropped by the writers in favour of the C&M angle for a good part of season 5. So I wouldn't count on logical consequence as the force that eventually brings them back together.
On the bright side, I guess this ep makes it somewhat more clear that Rachel still DOES have feelings for Ross. We've known for a while now that Ross has still had feelings for her. With Rachel, it has been harder to tell. So, her remarks in this episode make it clear she still feels something for him and that it may be something beyond mere friendship concerns. But is this sufficient evidence for her return to Ross? Again, I would like to think so. But history has often shown otherwise. I am not holding my breath, sad to say.
If the writers had no plans to
Partly because the writers are BAD at writing relationships. Elle failed, so did many others that came before her in the long line of Friends dates. Part of the reason that R&R were broken up in the first place is because the writers felt they could not write for them as a couple. They would only be sticking their head back into the noose if they hooked them up in another major relationship involving others besides themselves. So I think one reason that there are no other serious relationships for these characters is because the writers are afraid to. Keep in mind that no one outside of Chandler and Monica has really had a serious relationship. It's not restricted to Ross and Rachel by any means.
When was the last time Rachel even
is
Neither do the writers, I think. They show a real reluctance to commit to anything which is also why R&R fans are so frustrated. If they got back together, fans would love it. If they permanently stayed friends, fans would not like it initially but they would probably get used to it. But bouncing back and forth between the two is chaotic and nerve- wrecking. Some stability and direction on this show would go a long way to improving its quality, I believe.
None
I partly agree. The effort was pretty strong. Although the Monica in sick denial thing was way off the mark and IMO was foreseeably way off the mark, to boot. The Joey angle was pretty ordinary but Matt Leblanc has a true talent for breathing comedic life into otherwise mediocre storylines.
And, yes, the Rachel/Ross/Jill conflict (or, more accurately, foreshadowing of conflict) was nice to see. And, yes, some here are pessimistic and clouded in their opinion because of this pessimism. But keep in mind that they are probably pessimistic for good reason. It's hard to keep your chin up, much less be enthusiastic, after 6 years of rollercoastering on the same ride without any acceptable resolution.
Just
Past efforts should not influence judgment of current episodes. But they inevitably do. It's a fact of life. Our expectations are based on what has happened in our past. It is one of the ways we try to make sense of the world. True, the episode was pretty good and the writers shouldn't have its quality devalued by their past efforts. But the honest truth is they have dug a fairly deep hole for themselves up to now. It will likely take a fair amount of continued effort to fill it back in again, unfortunately.
Fire
Your opinion is your opinion and rightly so. I have tried to show you why some people may be a bit POed by it all. Personally, I agree with you. The episode was a better effort than most this season (especially if you critique it on its own without focusing too much on its eventual outcomes). And I, too, am a little surprised by the number of people who expressed dissatisfaction with it. But from a certain perspective, this dissatisfaction is not entirely unexpected. I am actually surprised it has taken this long to vent itself.
Thanks for your helpful post. Can't speak for anyone else (you spoke best for all of us), but my own postings lately have been gut-level reactions to what's going on. That doesn't make them any less valid, but they're not expressed carefully ;-)
Actually, I don't doubt that they might still reconcile Ross and Rachel, and even for good. But IMHO in order to do even a half-decent job of it (never mind a good job), they will have to take the next two seasons just to get to there from here. I don't see that happening.
I still invite them to surprise me, but based on what I've seen the past 5 1/2 years, I think any reconciliation now is going to be incredibly shallow and unsatisfying.
Eventually I will probably get to where you are, just looking at individual episodes on their own merits. I'm just not there yet.
ACK! This Ross and Rachel crap makes me wanna slit my throat! It's so annoying! The writers have been doing the same thing Over and OVER again! It's always... "Ross meets some girl, Rachel gets Jealous, Ross leaves other girl, Rachel forgets Ross was ever her boyfreind" Can't we just trash the story line?!?!?! It's sickening! Annoying! It's.... It's...... UGH! STOP IT YOU WRITERS! OR MY SANITY IS COMPLETELY GONE! I can't take it! CutthecrapCutthecrapCutthecrapCutthecrapCutthecrapCutthecrapCutthecrapCutt hecrapCutthecrap !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
God, can't we just have one thing that actually WORKS? The reason I switched
Robert, we've seen *this exact situation* FOUR TIMES NOW. Ross is alone. Rachel is happy. Ross attracts a woman. Call her Julie, Bonnie, Emily, or Jill, it doesn't matter. Rachel goes into hysterics. Ross loses or gives up his lady due to Rachel's interference in his life or his mind. Rachel's interest *instantly* vanishes. *Instantly*. It was only well done, with acceptable motivation for Rachel, the first time.
If these two are EVER
Yeah. Maybe it should have happened when they woke up in bed together and discovered they were married. That was a very promising, different, interesting scenario that was just full of revalatory possibilities. It was completely, entirely wasted.
Think
Larissa actually has some clues. She has inside contacts. And she told us here that they are moving to a fantasy episode when this one is over specifically to get away from the Ross /Rachel story. There is 0% chance this is going anywhere. No chance at all.
None
Well, the part I actually hated was the Chandler/Monica thing. I found Rachel amusing. I just wish she hadn't made it so clear that she realizes she doesn't want Ross to be happy.
Just
I look forward to next week. I also think the fantasy sequence sounds fun. The spoiler looked enjoyable, and I will say this; it's nice to see Ross back in the world of the sane and pleasant. That, in and of itself, is reason for me to lighten up. It's the only hope I have left now: that, from week to week, I won't want to strangle Ross. My expectations are actually really, really low at this point. Don't make me hate the characters and don't make me sick to my stomach. This episode failed on both fronts. .
Yes - exactly. After the 2nd or 3rd time, a normal, non-television Ross would have either sat Rachel down and asked "what the hell is your story", or wised up to the fact that she is playing mind games and not let it happen again. Sure, Rachel loves Ross, and vice-versa, BUT, Rachel is making a HUGE gamble that Ross won't find someone *else* that he falls in love with, more so than he is with Rachel. What if the next woman that comes along, Rachel's mind games don't work? (after having used them 4 times in the past).
Although I haven't seen the episode in question (I taped it, but havent seen TO In Vegas yet, so my self-imposed rule is I can't watch any season 6 episodes until that time. . . I wish they would play it in syndication soon!!), it seems like this same story line is used time and time again.
I never thought Ross and Rachel's relationship to be dead... and I'm sure nobody else did either. The reason people are complaining is because Ross and Rachel have been PUSHED ASIDE for a very long time. And that makes it appear as if the relationship is dead... but it's really not. Every once in a while there is a sweet R&R mini-storyline (and in the case of some episodes- a large one) and this has continued for a while. But lately, this season and the S5, (excluding last night's episode,) the # of these R&R storylines is diminishing. But we do have hope. Come on people! It's a given! No matter how long it takes the show to bring back Ross and Rachel they HAVE to. They NEED to. And if this is the last season- they better do it quick.