Friends, in it's 8th season, is #1 in the ratings. It has never been #1 before. The closest it had ever come to the top rating was it was #2 in the 1998-1999 season, which began the Monica and Chandler relationship.
There are two main stories this season:
Rachel being pregnant
Joey being in love with Rachel
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Now for those who are lighting victory cigars after reading the spoilers for 821 and 822, ask yourself why? Why would they quickly get rid of the 2nd storyline when it is half the reason this show is at the top of the ratings right now?
I'm afraid what this rapid R&R get together in 821/822 is only going to do is setup a conflict between Joey and Rachel in the season finale. We have yet to see any clear signs from these spoilers that Joey is completely out of love with Rachel, so who knows how he would take it.
You know what I've also noticed? The show is #1 in a season where there has been not one single, tiny, miniscule bit of romantic tension between Ross and Rachel. Why would the producers be so desperate to go the gravy train one more time if they didn't have to? Unless something happens with the 819/820 shows, this R&R moment is just going to be setup for Joey's reaction in the season finale.
Who says RnR are together ? They share a small sweet kiss, Rachel wouldn't mind getting together with him and clearly has more than just friendly feelings for him. Until RnR say something like "so are we back together" I'll consider them as back together.
Seems like you're grasping at straws. Rachel doesn't need Joey's reaction when she's giving birth. If they would do that then why have Rachel having feelings for Ross, can she just turn around, start having feelings for Joey and ingore Ross, the father of her child ?
"Tieno" wrote in message news:8Rwk8.78084$[email]...
And because the Joey and Rachel storyline has not been the primary reason the ratings are better. The ratings improved almost immediately after the premiere, and Joey didn't begin having feelings for Rachel until 812. The ratings are better this year because the writing has improved and Survivor has greatly diminished. Joey/Rachel is not the show-defining workhorse you are making it out to be, though Aniston may be.
Because they like R&R more than you do? Not everybody sees this the way you do.
Unless something
Actually, having read this, I just realized something about this scenario...
OK, it has been confirmed that Rachel will spend the finale in labor. One spoiler suggests it will be the longest labor in the hospital's history. What you are suggesting is that while she's howling and pushing and panting, Joey is either going to confront her about her feelings for Ross, or concentrate all his energy on how bad it hurts that she's not his girlfriend when what she really needs is for him to be a supportive friend in her time of need.
I've given birth twice. Any d***head who goes into a tailspin about his failed lovelife and how he didn't get his way, and troubles his beloved with this crisis while she's giving birth, deserves to be thrown out of the hospital and not invited to the baby shower.
Sorry, I don't think Joey is as big a selfish baby as he would have to be to do what you are suggesting, and if he did, I don't think the audience sympathy would be with him. Virtually nobody will agree that Joey's romantic feelings are more important than Rachel's welfare during childbirth - and that includes postpartum.
SHE COMES FIRST RIGHT NOW. Usually I get really annoyed with Rachel for demanding that her concerns be the only ones anybody cares about, but in this case, yes. She should be the absolute center of the Friends universe and no man, Ross or Joey, should be pushing her to do anything but be a woman giving birth.
I wonder what it would have been like if Rachel had smiled and said, "Oh Joey I feel the same way about you!"...then show r/j cozy in the next eppy and then fans reading the spoilers for 822 find out that r/r kiss towards the end of the eppy? Now what would have been the reaction of r/j fans?
Likewise what would be the reaction of r/r fans if the writers ignored the r/r kiss and went with a r/j romance instead in season 9? More to the point would this make sense to r/j fans?
How do you figure this? So all those newspaper articles on the "Joey falling in love with Rachel" story as half the reason the ratings are at an all-time high are just full of it?
I mean, we all know what kind of trash rags magazines like TV Guide and Entertainment Weekly are...
The ratings improved almost immediately after the
So tell me, why was Friends never #1 for the 6 and half years it didn't face Survivor? Are you going to suggest that the writing has never been this good before this year, because that only adds more to my point.
to be, though Aniston may be.
I guess I'll have to belabor this point before someone will get it, the average ratings are higher by 3-4 million viewers since the J&R storyline began. The show was *already* #1 when this storyline began, and now it's even higher than before. To suggest this storyline is going to be an afterthought in a couple of episodes is just not paying attention to the buzz the pairing received.
And the same goes for you. In fact, I at least have some proof how much the producers like Joey & Rachel, your statement however that they still like R&R is totally unfounded.
You find me one article from this season that has one of the producers saying they still like Ross and Rachel, and I will gladly apologize.
I remember once at the start of the season that Marta said the show was "on fire again", but she never intimated at any time in that article that it was *because* of Ross and Rachel, nor did she ever say that the she still liked them as a pairing, unlike Joey and Rachel.
That's not what I'm suggesting at all... Read the other posts in this thread. Joey is a good guy, he's not going to let Rachel know how crushed he may be by what happens with Ross and Rachel.
And remeber, she's giving birth IN the season finale, so after that's done days later, Joey can take off.
Ok, one thing, you're not a man so you know jack s*** about how a guy feels after being crushed like that.
And FYI, I don't know about you, but traditionally the baby shower usually occurs before the birth of the baby. Joey won't know any of this likely until Rachel has/had the baby.
I don't think you can honestly accuse me ever again of making unfounded statements after this paragraph you wrote. You think the entire mass of audience rooting for J&R, which sadly for you is now as strong if not stronger than R&R, is not going to feel one bit of sympathy that Ross got Rachel yet again, while Joey never had has shot with her?
Ross refusing to let Joey go after Rachel would have been selfish because he was NOT in love with her. Joey being upset with this if he still has remnants of feelings for her is not selfish, whatsoever. He has more than put his feelings aside in favor of Rachel and Ross and the baby. He has more than enough right to be pissed at this. And they might very well set up in the season finale Joey talking to Chandler about Rachel before they meet up with them at the hospital. They are going to be together at the end of 822.
Ross had no qualms about it as her water was breaking apparently...
Joey's a stand up guy, if he is crushed by this, he won't let Rachel know about it all during and after the pregnancy. But I wouldn't be surprised a few days to see him take off. He did after all almost do that because he couldn't handle being around Chandler.
3 out of 5(-6) episodes weren't up against Survivor. In every episode since the RnJ story began was something big happening, that gets the attention of the viewers.
"Tieno" wrote in message news:3_Lk8.78829$[email]...
been
was
history.
his
beloved
Because women never get their feelings hurt. :-) Uh huh. However, I will give you this; if Joey doesn't actually "confront" Rachel, then this scenario becomes far less repugnant. You are, however, shifting your prediction a little. At first, you had him "in a conflict" with Rachel right after she gave birth. I envisioned him arguing with Ross, arguing with her, or in some other way demanding that they pay attention to his feelings at that exact moment. If what he does instead is sadly slip away, it becomes more plausible. Actually, I would predict him announcing he'd gotten a job in California.
If Joey were to give Rachel grief about her love life right after giving birth, I would stand by this statement. It's a repugnant idea, and no man worth his salt would do it. Rachel is more important. She doesn't need this grief.
You think the
No, I think the entire mass of audience is going to be concerned about Rachel's welfare more than anything. We would like to believe he thinks her feelings and health are what matters at that moment. Once again, if what you actually having him doing is quietly slipping away, the idea becomes much more feasible.
He does? What does Rachel actually owe Joey? Does she owe him a date? A night? Is she morally required to fall in love with him? Or just to "give him a chance" when she's carrying another man's child? Is Joey actually pissed? Who is he angry with? Saddened, maybe. Heartbroken, maybe. Pissed? Who wronged him?
Here's where I might have to read the spoiler again. I thought Ross finally agreed to have sex with Rachel because she hollered and cajoled and pleaded for the labor inducement. It also occurs to me that really, during all this Ross and Rachel aren't actually a couple - they are just engaging in some fairly contrived sexual tease meant to manipulate the audience more than anything else. Would Joey even know all this happened?
Like I said, this sounds much more reasonable than what you appeared to be suggesting at first. I do, however, at this moment almost wish we knew each other in 3D life. The only way to solve this one is to put a $10 bet on it. You are betting that the cliffhanger involves Joey running away from his friends in heartbroken despair, and I am betting that it's something else. Anything else. I think Joey is stronger than this.
You want to talk about grasping at straws? You really think a relationship storyline has run its course in the span of 5 episodes? Even guest stars have had longer relationships with the main characters than that.
Do you realize your last statement in this paragraph completely contradicts your question? You question why should I assume R&R are together, then you finish by saying that you consider them together. That makes no sense if you were trying to make a point here.
And you casually forgot to mention that we *don't* know how Joey would take this at all. But if he is like just about any normal guy in this situation, it probably won't be very well. And rightfully so.
You completely missed the point the here. The birth is going to take place in the season finale. The few minutes left after that in the show will set up the cliffhanger. And if Joey has any sadness/anger at this, it would be a very realistic reaction for him to leave if he can't handle it.
Hmm...trying to mimic you...
"....the why have Joey have feelings for Rachel, so she can turn around and start having feelings for Ross and ignore Joey, the most supportive person she's had with her pregnancy?"
The father of the child doesn't make a person instantly more attractive, or a more viable romantic interest, and it is faulty reasoning for you assume that's the case.
Hmm, have I missed something in the spoilers ? I don't consider them as back together, I do think they will get back together.
Yes, but that doesn't mean he has to go abadon his friends because someone who he has feeligns for likes someone else. If he can't handle that...and has to leave his friends because of that....then what makes you think he can handle a serious relationship ?
reaction
Rachel, just out of a very lang labor, has to decide between Ross and Joey because Joey can't take it that she has feelings for someone else ? If he would do that then he would ruin the happiest moment out Rachel's life, let her and Ross be with their daugther. Joey isn't a jerk.
she
father
"Sharing" the same baby goes very deep.
Rachel asked Ross his complete celibacy, Ross without thinking (it over) said "ok", now Rachel is just going to go for Joey ?
One last thing, what you are suggesting contradicts with what Joey stands for
"They have a kid together, y'know. They're like, they're like a family, and if, I don't know, there's chance they could make that work, I know I wouldn' t want to be the guy who stood in the way of that."
Now (unlike you said in the past) there is a chance Ross and Rachel could make a family work.
One other thing, what sacrifice did Ross make at all in the 1st season when he was crushing on Rachel? Certainly whatever he did paled in comparison to what Joey has done.
I know you don't choose who you fall in love with, but for Rachel to want to be with Ross at the end of the 1st season, when he did really nothing at all except try to ask her out a 1,000 times, and for now Rachel to completely dispose of Joey after he did all of those selfless acts as her roommate is rather unbelievable.
As far as I'm concerned, you could not convince a person who has never seen an episode of Friends to watch the 1st season and the 8th season, and see how Rachel could completely love Ross, but not feel a thing for Joey.
Tieno, you just said "I'll consider them as back together". Read what you wrote.
someone
that...and
he can
So, having this thrown is his face not a month removed from confessing his feelings to BOTH Ross and Rachel means he shouldn't be upset? It's throwing whatever he felt for Rachel right back in his face. How many things has Chandler while he's been heartbroken, and yet he is able to handle a serious relationship.
reaction
Joey
If he
life, let
Again, you are missing the point. Rachel isn't "deciding" anything. She thinks whatever Joey felt for her was a little crush and has already moved on. So when Ross and Rachel announce they are getting back together, they might assume Joey is ok with it, and has already moved on. But if he hasn't moved on, which seems totally realistic considering who it was he fell in love with, he will be crushed. And when he gets crushed in the season finale, you can bet he will do something extreme to keep us buzzing over the summer break.
she
father
How would you know this? Aren't you a teenager?
over)
Makes perfect sense. Rachel is never jealous of Mona, but all of the sudden she takes issue with the salesgirl? I don't think those are hidden feelings behind that.
stands
family, and
want to >be the guy who stood in the way of that."
could
So what? Monica said in her wedding vows that Chandler was her soulmate, and not half a year later she is telling Chandler she doesn't believe in soulmates. The writers don't follow the past lines of these characters to the letter. If they forget about an important line in a wedding vow half a year, what makes you think they would give a crap about a line Joey said nearly 6 years ago?
And not mention Joey made that advice to Chandler when he hadn't been in love before, and could not possibly know what Chandler was going through at the time.
"Until RnR say something like 'so are we back together' I'll consider them as back together."
But AFAIK he never abadoned his friends. I'm not saying Joey can't be upset but leaving your friends because of that ?
So what is Rachel going to do then ? Not get back together with Ross ? Is your cliffhanger wether Joey will or won't come back ? Because Rachel isn't "deciding" anything.
can
What's your point ?
Maybe something changed in Rachel that makes her jealous ? Mona was some time ago, things might have changed in those 3-4 episodes. If Joey can develop feelings in 1-2-3 episodes then so can Rachel change in 1-4 episodes and feel jealous.
That's not my point, it's what Joey stands for as a character, he has always been known to be a family guy.
Well, it'll make Joey look like a jerk and I don't think that is what you want.
So Joey has to abandon his friends once before you can believe he do it?? I didn't know that required a history of abandoning in order for one to do it.
Rachel is doing nothing. She gives birth, Ross and Rachel get all mushy looking at the baby, and Joey realizes that he can't handle it. After they return from the hospital a few days later, everyone goes over to Joey's apartment to show the baby, only to open it up and see it completely empty.
There's your cliffhanger. How will this be resolved?
You're not old enough to have a baby and possibly know what you're talking about parenting a baby.
Ah, it must have been Joey falling in love with her that made her get jealous of Ross again...
If he didn't want to get in the way in the first place, he wouldn't have begged Rachel to stay in the apartment in TOW The Stain.
Do RnR say something like "so are we back together", maybe I missed that in the spoilers, please quote it then.
that
No, IMO Joey just doesn't have to abadon his friends because of that.
Having Rachel fall in love with Joey so he gets his way ? No, having Rachel and Ross go after Joey and having a talk with him. I doubt it that when RnR are back together and Joey leaves because of that, that Rachel's feelings are just going to turn and she'll leave Ross, the father of her child, to go after Joey.
Are you disagreeing with me or are you saying that I can't say something because of my age ? Please shut up, you don't know me !
episodes
We haven't read the spoiler for 819 and 820, maybe something happens there. 818 seems to have RnR hinting, where Rachel is touched by how Ross fantasized on how he would have proposed to her. .
always
Weren't you saying that back then RnR didn't have feelings for each other so there wasn't really a chance for them to work as a family ?
Joey was totally selfish there though, maybe he just didn't thought of Ross back then.
you
Joey brakes up a family ? You really think that makes him look like an ok guy ?
No, you said you consider them back together, even though they aren't. If this storyline has other R&R fans considering them back together, and they end up going with Joey and Rachel, then they may tune out.
If he has a movie to shoot, or a tour to promote his new movie, then it's probably conveinent for him to leave, even though he might not tell anyone.
Again, R&R are not together. They could say the kiss they had meant nothing in the season finale if they wanted to, it wouldn't be the first time. And yes, if Rachel sees how hurt Joey is by all this, she may soon start to realize how deep his feelings ran for her.
Um, no....I'm saying you aren't a parent, so how would you know how "sharing" a baby affects a relationship when you've never done it?! Geez...
Now how much do you think people who are relatively on the fence about all this are going to accept this R&R hinting immediately after the J&R storyline "ended"? I bet more than a few are going to wonder how Joey would react to this, which I think is what the producers are going for here.
No, he wasn't selfish. Ross and Rachel were not, and are not, in love. Joey can help out with the baby if he wants to, and he has a right to want his roommate to stay with him.
First off, that's "breaks" not "brakes".
What family is he breaking up? I thought a traditional family consisted of two people who were married. Of course, there are many other types of family. The six of them are a family, and right now until Rachel marries someone, everyone can be involved with Rachel and the child. They are already with Ben.
I had written a reply but it's no use, I think I'm done here. You keep convincing yourself there's still a chance for RnJ, because that's all you're doing.
I'm sorry but I totally disagree, the ratings are no indicator of the quality of the show, merely the storylines. Eight has been an average season, boosted only by J&R. 816 and 817 were terrible.
Aren't the storylines in essence what the "quality" of the show is? It's what provides the comedy, these situations they are put in. Of course, if you pull out this example, then I can just as easily attribute that to the R&R storyline in the first 2 seasons that got the show huge ratings...
And I agree, 816 and 817 could have been better, and if they were the conclusion of this storyline, they were terrible.
But honestly, the R&R storylines haven't been that hot either. 803 was awful, 805 was boring, and 813 was incredibly predictable and uninteresting.
No offense to Americans, but people watch soaps because of the storylines, cliff hangers and such. I don't watch soaps because I have better things to do (ATF!) , the only reason I started watching Friends was because it was so funny. If I had started watching the show now, I wouldn't continue. The great thing about R&R in Season 2, was that it was fresh, and the show was still funny.
I think most people here have found J&R to be the freshest idea in years on this show, although the show has gone for more emotion than laughs handling this delicate situation.
I have a feeling Chandler will keep Joey busy for a few episodes in the near future. ;)
And a little soap isn't really a bad thing late in a sitcom series' life. By now we are more invested in the characters than the comedy, although the comedy still provides a vital role to keep the show rolling quickly and not get dull.
The best episodes of M*A*S*H were in the last few seasons when there probably wasn't but just a couple of moments in those seasons that you could laugh out loud at.
Que? I must have missed the inside joke on that one. But about the J&C interaction, you can count on it soon...
I think even before this season started, I would have to believe most people would have thought J&R was a much more plausible couple than R&P when it comes to "uncoventional" couples.
I don't know, it's kind of like the aura Joey and Chandler had as friends, but to me it just seems Joey and Rachel blend naturally together so well. I always wonder what the reception would have been like for those two had there not been the albatross of R&R hanging around this show's neck.
WIth the knowledge that Ross is the father of Rachel's baby, the ratings spike could just as easily be the result of R and R fans (there are many) tuning in to watch what seems to be their inevitable eventual reunion.
Donna My opinions might have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
It's been a long time since I've bothered to respond to something like this, but every once in awhile I feel sufficiently provoked.
Owen, I've watched soaps before, and Friends has *never* come within ten city blocks of being soapy. A few serious moments here and there do not a soap opera make.
Sorry for seeming so callous, but I just really don't understand where this comes from. I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't being used as an excuse for putting down a little bit of drama in a sitcom. The best comedy comes from a story in which dramatic moments can occur. Every once in a blue moon, a masterpiece is made which is totally devoid of drama, such as Animal House. But most of the wannabees fall far short. Some of the funniest moments in Friends have occurred when something dramatic was happening. On the other hand, you couldn't pay me enough money to watch a single episode of Married With Children. I'd sooner have my fingernails ripped out.
Well, I don't think it is soap at all, but other than that, I agree with you, johnsonwalker.
As for this, well, it's a matter of taste I suppose. Not every MASH fan would agree with you. I wouldn't for one. In fact, I think if any sitcom could be called the least bit soapy, it was MASH in the last couple of years. There were still some gems, but there were a number of episodes that I didn't find very funny. What was worse for me was that the drama didn't even seem to be working very well either. In fact, it seemed too preachy.
Well here's the thing, I don't think the love triangle between Joey/Rachel/Ross is considered to be soapy by critics, (it happens often enough in real life), but when you throw in a baby into the situation, it may sometimes be messy enough to resemble a soap situation. But they've handled it well enough that it has stayed above the cheesiness of a typical soap opera for the most part, plus it has been much better acted.
The writers kind of handcuffed themselves with some shortsightedness in their writing. I think without the baby, people overall would be much more accepting of Joey and Rachel. However, having Joey fall in love with someone who currently couldn't look less attractive going through a pregnancy is something even sweeter, because you know it's not primarily motivated by lust, but true feelings.
When they dumped Frank Burns, the comedy tended to drop, but I think the quality and comfortableness of the shows went way up once they brought in a rather unimposing figure in Charles Winchester.
Johnsonwalker, I just want to say thanks. It's nice to know there are still J/R fans out there, and I agree with you about how joey's feelings are true. Rachel isn't in her best appearance, and it seems more genuine that Joey has these feelings anyway. - Cici
Well, here's something you've said with which I can agree whole-heartedly. If Rachel were not carrying Ross' baby, the idea of Joey marrying her instead would be considerably less uncomfortable - and if Mona had not been written out, I'd be thinking the Mona/Ross Rachel/Joey pairings suggested happy endings. The baby is the center of the controversy.
Less uncomfortable - maybe, realistic - no way. Rachel never showed feelings for Joey other than friendship and yet you're talking about *marriage*!
Mona was a guest star, how naive do you have to be, to believe someone of the main cast could happily stay together with an external person in sitcom-land?
IBTD, it's not that simple.
Although all throughout season 7 Ross and Rachel were kept apart a lot people still /feel/ they belonged together. Therefore those didn't need the baby. We've seen some indications that they could become closer again this season, although some may have expected to see it happen quicker catalyzed by the common baby. Well, actually they're closer than ever, they live together. They never considered this in the whole year they were a couple. If there was no baby and Joey had still developed feelings for Rachel he would still feel bad, because he knows that there's this chance of a R&R reunion somewhere and he wouldn't want to destroy that, their history is less important. Neither would the audience like that. The Ross & Rachel relationship makes a big part of the magic of Friends, I think the biggest. Of course the baby makes everything even weirder, but I'm pretty sure J&R wouldn't have happened without neither. I.e. she's a factor, but not the "center of controversy" neither for the characters nor the authors nor the audience.
Let's just start with a relationship between Joey and Rachel, and see where it goes from there. It may turn out well, and it may not, but we won't know until we try.
Sigh...Rachel never showed feelings for Ross either before she found out about Ross. So, it may take her in the season finale or the 9th season to realize it, so what? They aren't going to do a retread of Ross and Rachel by having Rachel immediately fall for Joey after he said he loved her. It's going to take a bigger event, i.e. Joey heading out of town, to get Rachel to seriously question whether she feels anything for him.
Many people don't seem to mind pairing Joey off with some unknown just so he can't be with Rachel. And I don't know about anyone else, but I find Bonnie Sommerville to have the best combination of hotness and acting ability of any guest star ever on Friends. So I think Ross would be happy off with her in the end.
And you know this because? I thought a lot of people were too busy enjoying all the interaction between Joey and Rachel as roommates to care that much about Ross and Rachel in the 7th season.
We've seen some indications that they could become closer
Yeah, and that's because Joey put them together in the first place out of regards to his own feelings. That kind of sacrifice is not going to go unrewarded, trust me.
They never considered this in the whole
No offense, but that's a load of bull. When Joey and Ross talked in 815, Joey said himself he didn't think Ross loved Rachel anymore, and clearly Joey's main concern was how his falling in love with Rachel would affect his friendship with Ross, not that he might be coming in the way of Ross and Rachel again.
I'd be surprised if anyone else here actually thought Joey's main concern was he was keeping Ross and Rachel from getting together again. Clearly, as they have said MANY times this season, they aren't in love with each other.
Neither would
Maybe in the first few seasons, but not now...
Of course the baby makes
I think J&R still have a very good chance of happening based on what we have seen so far. And yes, I've read the spoilers all the way to 822, and I still feel it's setting up Joey and Rachel just because of R&R being hastily put together after what has happened.
I emphasised "marriage", because that's what bothered me the most in Abrahammy's post. You've to distinguish between dreaming about, thinking about and writing a long-running TV show. If the writers were dreamers we had the 6 coupled up forever into M&C, R&R and J&P at the end of season 3 and the show cancelled in mid-season 4 (+/- 1 season). R&R were very close during the first season, yet Rachel saw Ross only as a very good friend. That's very similiar to the R&J relationship since she moved in with him...
...and you're right, they won't repeat their own storylines, that's either the reason Mondler won't announce having a baby this season's finale. The difference between Joey's and Ross's love for Rachel is not only that Ross's is very old and instant instead of grown by knowledge, but it's manifested in the show that R&R's destiny is to end up together: Who meets his highschool love years after graduation? And dates her. Who's Rachel's backup? Who's Ross's? Who's getting a baby from whom? Who's now living together? (Although I hate this:) Who are lobsters?
You could say exactly the same about Ross and Rachel, depends on which couple you like the better. Both of them, R&R, have never been shown seriously thinking about whether they could be together again. It's just like they refuse to, they're afraid to. Yeah, I'm talking Ally now.
What else should be the reason that in votes shortly before TOW Joey Tells Rachel the couples were almost equally beloved, despite Mental Geller and Princess Rachel.
I think most of the people liking J&R haven't seen the show from throughout the beginning. Can't prove it, just think so.
Ross has done very nice (along very stupid) things for Rachel after they broke up (e.g. TOW Tiny T-Shirt, TOW a Chick. And a Duck.) without making her fall in love with him immediately again. That kind of thing doesn't build love, it only demonstrates it. I don't know how old you're and what your experiences in the field of love are like, but it seems as if you've never been into something serious. (That sounds mean, I know, sorry.)
Do you mean bull-shit?
Ross: So, uh, this, this guy that she used to go out with. Is he still in love with her? Joey: No! I don't think so.
That "I don't think so." came out to weaken (can you say relativate?) the "No!", i.e. he's not absolutely sure if there are really no feelings left between Ross & Rachel. Or did you have a different scene in mind?
And why do you think this friendship would have been in risk? There was this sentence that didn't make it into the final episode 816, when Monica talks to Ross, he said something like "If there's a Joey and Rachel, there'll never be a Ross and Rachel." I already told Tennant that this, no matter if it's said in the show, is the main reason for J&R not being possible and I think he kind of agreed.
What else is the reason for the unwritten "Don't date your friend's ex-girlfriend." rule? Even if it's subconsciously.
So why are there still R&R-fans around, although they've done their best to make us believe there won't be a reunion ever since TOW Chandler Can't Cry till now (except maybe TOW Rachel's Date)?
Rachel has NO feelings for him. Accept it. "She has even more feelings for Ross now" I could say, but won't.
S P O I L E R S P A C E
I only read the NBC spoiler for 819, a part of the filming report for 821 and the shorter version of 822, but so far I've not seen any mentioning of Joey's feelings, instead a lot of Ross & Rachel & Baby stuff. It may surprise you, but I don't expect anything *serious* happen between R&R before the 200th episode, neither do I hope for it, but I'm sure it will sometime. The way Ross seems to be Rachel's punching ball in 822, I think, will be at least as kind as Joey suggesting Rachel moving in with Ross. Does she therefore have to fall in love with him after her mind comes clear again? J&R is over, actually has never been. Joey might do something about it again, but Rachel won't be more than a friend to him. Ever. I'd bet on it.
We disagree without a chance to change it, only time will tell who's right.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here...but the writers had no "vision" of these pairings at the end of the third season. It kind of went against the fact they were all supposed to be just "friends", hence the name of the title. I have even been watching the first season again, and the running R&R storyline back then was only brought up once every few episodes. It's only when the hype began to build around it in the second season did it become the focus *at that time*.
But J&R's friendship, at least until 812, wasn't predicated by the fact that one held out feelings for the other. They had a very close, platonic friendship, which sometimes can run deeper eventually than dating and marrying someone.
Hey, no argument here. Like I said, R&R is an albatross around this show's neck. But you noticed that not many people at all, save for the outlier R&R fan, were offended by the thought of J&R once it was shown to them. You can not point to one sitcom where there was just one main love interest throughout the entire course of the show. It's just not possible to keep people interested in that for so long. Added that to the fact they had dropped R&R tension for over 2 years now, and people can start to warm up to idea of other people dating.
But they suddenly talk about getting back together in 821, and start kissing in 822? To me, that's not the buildup to an eventual reunion that I think the creators would do. With this happening so quickly, I feeel it's just going to be a catalyst for Joey's friendship with Rachel.
Well to me, the fact that a couple that has been tossed around for 8 years gets beaten out by two people who aren't even a couple yet suggest that many are warming to the idea of J&R even before it happens!
Well...I've seen the show from the beginning. I liked R&R in the beginning, but got really tired of that. And now I like J&R even more, so that doesn't bode well for you if even a hardcore J&R fan like myself has watched this show from the beginning AND once liked R&R.
Joey and Rachel haven't gone out, Rachel doesn't even love Joey "that way" yet. This can't even be compared.
Well, I'm old enough to realize that this is a fictional TV show and not reality. I'm old enough to know that a TV show is here solely for the purpose of entertaining us, not to show us the cruel reality of life. When someone like Joey does all that stuff for Rachel, without *any* return whatsoever, it's not really entertaining to watch. Unless you absolutely hate the character of Joey.
And I'm sure I can safely say I have been in more of my fair share of relationships than you have. But you can humor me with all your dating expertise if you like.
Well, I was trying to be polite, but if you want...it was a pile of steaming bullshit.
You're grasping there, my friend.
And that was cut because the writers might not be going that way!!! Don't you think an important line like that would have been used over a pointless line in the "Monica's soulmate" story? They wrote this before all the J&R hoopla, and the extension for the 9th season, began. This cut line just shows they may be planning to switch couples from what their original intent was.
I already told Tennant
More like Tennant just gave up on you.
Yeah, the rule is there because it would make the friendships awkward. It's not there because typically the ex-boyfriend is still head over heels in love with the ex-girlfriend.
Because some people don't like change, plain and simple.
No you can say, and you would be foolish for saying it not actually having seen the shows yet, and just basing it on spoilers.
They are keeping Joey and Rachel away. They don't broach the issue whatsoever in the next few episodes. Either they have completely dropped the storyline in 817 (highly unlikely), or they are saving this to the season finale when Joey's feelings for Rachel may resurface after hearing what happens with R&R.
I don't see how those two could be interrelated at all.
Does
Step in line with abrahammy and all the other foolish R&R fans who base the entire future of J&R on spoilers for the next few episodes.
I have a feeling after the season finale it will become pretty clear.
hm...not very bright of you to call Claire and all R&R fans foolish (even if you are only referring to those who base their opinions on spoilers). You tend to use really harsh phrases or words (bull, foolish) for characterizing others that do not deserve it and that's too bad cause many things you say, even though I disagree with 95% of what you say, are actually quite nice to read. I'm sure that you don't care what I think but I still got to say that I lost all respect for you.
I've no problem being (called) a fool, as long as I'm right in the end. ;-) Don't know about the others, of course.
He called my words bull and thought it was politer than calling them bullshit -- an attitude I cannot understand. Although "bull" and "foolish" aren't very harsh IMHO.
Hmm, I did notice you yanked the paragraph that I was referring to, but anyway...
I didn't call ALL R&R fans foolish, did I? There are only a couple here who have read the spoilers for the next few episodes, and from that have brazenly predicted the end all to a major storyline, when it doesn't make any possible sense that would end so suddenly. Those that say something will *never* happen, IMO, do carry a sense of foolish pride in their posts.
I repeat, I didn't call all R&R fans foolish. There are more than enough people here who make reasonable arguments for their couple.
You
Well, if you disagree with 95% of what I say in the first place, it's not going to take much from me for you to lose interest in what I say. That's just natural for anyone who doesn't agree with the other side.
I made it clear in my statement that I did notice you were only refering to those who base their opinions on spoliers. Calling 100 people or 5 people foolish is stillt eh same thing, especially when you use one name in particular (Claire and leave everyone else anonymous.
characterizing
say,
to
that
If everyone agreed with each other, this ng would be incredibly boring. Just because I disagree with our posts doesn't mean I do not like reading them or do not like reading opinions of "the other side". I did not lose respect for you because I disagree with you. I lost it cause you stooped too low and started calling a % of people here foolish.
There are few people who watch every episode of a series and care about character development, continuity errors and stuff, aka fans. And there are a lot more people who watch TV every evening and just want to be entertained and don't care about much about such details we're discussing here. Of course producers have to satisfy both.
Mad About You (haven't seen the last season, though).
And yet "people" are still R&R fans.
Do you know when the scripts for the upcoming shows were written? I think they had to plan episodes so they could couple up R&R for the series' finale 824 as well as an alternative were this is still possible in a final season 9. Nevertheless it doesn't make much sense to analyze episodes we haven't seen yet.
I wrote I'm not expecting a R&R reunion soon, i.e. this season, but there's not only black and white, Joey and Ross. Believe me, Joey's chance is over, that doesn't automatically mean that it's now Ross' turn.
Hey, we're still talking about US-Americans.
I don't know every English idiom, "load of bull" could have been something different than "load of bullshit". You should say what you mean if you want to be unterstood. Impoliteness doesn't come from words but from their meaning, i.e. it doesn't matter if you say "You smell like shit." or "You smell like poo.".
No, I honestly think Joey is unsure whether there's still something between R&R, or could be for that matter. Btw.: I can't understand why the "No!" is missing from the transcript I found.
Yeah, might.
I think everyone is reading into this what he wants. We simply disagree.
"Believe in true eternal love" is how I would describe it. Phoebe would say "Lobsters".
Well, both are her friends, but she was in love with Ross once, really, who's chances are better? I'm not basing it on the spoilers, just some feelings will remain forever, although getting weaker.
What are you basing "highly unlikely" by? Your wishes?
I really hope, the finale will feature something else, maybe Phoebe.
Same for me and Joey & Rachel.
So we are foolish to believe in a reunion of a couple that was really in love once. But you are not foolish, but believing in a love where one part declared she has no feelings? Sorry, I don't get it.
No, they'll give us another full season to argue.
Christoph, who wears a faded salmon T-shirt right now
And those few people who are either rooting hard for R&R or J&R are probably big enough fans to tune in regardless of what happens.
If Ross and Rachel were married the entire sitcom, then it's different. But going in and out of a relationship gets old quickly.
"Some people" are still R&R fans, and "some people" are still J&R fans.
That's another reason why I think they are changing course here. Besides the warm reception it has generally received, making the show go to a 9th season allows the creators to seriously ponder putting Joey and Rachel in a relationship. Maybe their original intent was for this idea to just tide people over to the R&R series finale this season. The creators said many times that Joey and Rachel was not planned at the start of the season. But now...
How do you know Joey's chance is over? Joey never actually has had a "chance" yet.
What does that mean? That Americans don't know what they are talking about? Because you are talking to one who sure as hell knows what he is talking about.
We'll know soon enough once Joey finds out about Ross and Rachel kissing.
Is Joey not capable of "true eternal love" with Rachel because he came after Ross? How can you even compare what Joey and Rachel may have until it happens?
I really don't care if my ex-girlfriends get married. That doesn't mean I don't care about *them*, but that I have already moved on.
No, by the fact that they are still uncomfortable around each other at the end of 817. Not really closure there, don't you think?
I don't know of anything that can be done to Phoebe that would leave us buzzing over the summer break.
Huh?
You also took out your own paragraph where you say, among over things, "Joey and Rachel will never happen", and based on what we've read, that's not a wise statement.
Clearly from your post, you live outside the United States, so you probably have very little idea how well Joey and Rachel has been received over here by the media and viewers. That success of the storyline usually means the creators will come back to it eventually.
Maybe, or maybe with the baby will establish whether Joey or Ross has feelings for Rachel, or just while she was pregnant.
This discussion doesn't make any sense, because we won'T ever agree, anyway:
"are still J&R fans"? How much J&R fans were there before season 8?
...it *seems* as if they're stopping it. You believe they're not doing it for real, I differ, there's no solution until 924.
I don't know, I believe. That's why we won't come to a conclusion.
Exactly.
Not a closure to their uncomfortableness, but the closure to their "relationship" was already in 816, just before it begun.
That's why the writers get a pay check each month.
You said before that Joey will be rewarded for his kind act of suggesting R&R moving in together, and obviously meant that Rachel will fall in love with him. I said Ross will do something maybe even nicer in a few episodes. You answered that you don't see R&R happening, I responded that I don't see R&J happening to demonstrate the uselessness of this discussion.
I am *not* basing it on the spoilers. I'm basing it on what I think would be the best for the show and what I think the creators will do. I still think it's more logical to believe in a reunion of R&R than in a union of J&R based on what happened the past 8.5 years.
Germany, yes.
Good writers don't listen to what people say, but know what they need/want. Otherwise R&R were still together and the show would have been cancelled long ago.
We won't come to a conclusion, thus this is my last post in this discussion. EOD
"Christoph P�per" wrote in message news:a7i4ej$2e4s$[email]...
And this is why I said I'd rather just place a ten dollar bet - in this case, that the cliffhanger will about something other than Joey running away in abject despair. I'd even place a $25 bet with you that Joey will not end the show as Rachel's boyfriend or husband. Somehow, suggesting this both gives stakes to our beliefs without having the conversation degenerate into personal insult.
On the other hand, you have just gone on the record as saying all R&R fans are foolish, and that believing J&R will get together is the only path which isn't foolish. OK, that's your stake. I will keep this post and we will see what happens.
I'd really rather just bet ten bucks, honestly. This really doesn't have to be unpleasant.
The conversation already degenerated when people on one side of the coin start saying things like "Give it up", "It will never happen", "Get over it", "The story is over", when clearly they have no idea that is the case. It is foolish pride, and I have no compunction calling it that. You want to call something I've said foolish? Be my guest. But there's almost nothing I've said here that didn't have some reasoned defense behind it.
No, I didn't...Why do you always hyperbolize everything I say?
Well, if you were big enough to not killfile someone you didn't agree with, I might have made that bet.
It is really weird that you would say that Claire is the one who killfiles people for not agreeing with them when others (Tennant) have done it several times but I do not seem to remember you ever taking a shot at them...
I can't see J&R getting together, but then neither can I see R&R ever getting back together. Like Joey said, they went out, like, 5 years ago. Personally I'd say 'get over it already', but that's just my take on it.
Hello? It's a television show. We've as much reason to be *proud* of the result as we would at correctly calling the Super Bowl winner. We are polishing our Tea Leaf skills. Do you understand that absolutely none of this matters and it's only supposed to be fun?
Why do you have to be so hateful *all* the time?
Anonymous, it is precisely this particular kind of personal slur that makes your posts difficult for me to read - in every forum, under every name you use. (Who do you think you are fooling?) And it's too bad, because your posts are interesting when you don't stoop to abuse. It really matters not one shriveled fig who Rachel actually ends up with, but for you to be so consistently *angry* at people who disagree with you simply because they disagree with you is kind of disturbing.
Futhermore, after seeing this thread, I read the entire thing again on Google and realized that the reasons your attacks on me have gotten so viciously personal is that you knew I had killfiled you.
Um, I checked. You didn't learn that here. Nobody else knew, except possibly Tieno. I never mentioned killfiling you here at all, and I've combed Google to make sure. I DID mention it on Angel's Message Board, in a post where I said that it really looked like "Footballguy", you, and the oddly named "Clairefan" all seemed to have very similar writing styles as well as opinions. That was where I publicly expressed an interest in killfiling you. And you knew I had done this. Because, as I suspect, you use different names on different boards and then deny it. But you didn't address it with me there. You began slamming me here with the smug assumption that I would not see it.
It seems abundantly clear that you have more than one persona, and at least one of those personas has been thrown off a message board for being widely abusive. I tried to make this less personal by turning it into a bet. You insulted my character. You have called me a small person and a fool. Johnson, you don't have any idea what kind of person I am, whether I'm really a "big" person or a "petty" person. You do seem to have decided that the way to get me to unkillfile you is to insult me - on a level of virtue and character - so badly behind my back that I'm forced to unkillfile you just to defend myself. If you are, as I now VERY strongly suspect, passing yourself off as up to three different people and lying about it, then perhaps you should lay off on diatribes against other's sins just a little bit.
And I'm still willing to call the whole *personal* war off and place this back where it should go - in a simple bet. Because what we are really fighting about is absolutely meaningless trivia, and when it gets this nasty it ceases to be any fun at all.
As for saying that I think the Joey and Rachel storyline is over - well, ten bucks says Joey is completely unhurt by Ross and Rachel's closeness, and twenty-five says he doesn't end up with her. Questions of another person's intrinsic worth, wisdom and virtue is not acceptable stakes for the outcome of a TV show. Put the jackhammer away. It is not appropriate.
reminds me of a post I *thought* I had made (AOL or somebody ate it, I looked for it at Google but couldn't find it) a couple of weeks ago in the "817-the one with the tea leaves" thread. It seems apropos here as well, and since it somehow got fumbled the first time, I'm repeating it here:
In article , [email] (Anonymous) writes:
johnsonwalker, no amount of justification is needed for killfiling. I sometimes killfile topics simply because there's such topic overload and I have a life outside this newsgroup. And sometimes I have (not in this newsgroup but in others) killfiled a person because trying to discuss things with them is like talking to a brick wall or a being from another planet. I have been tempted to killfile Tennant a few times myself for a little of both reasons.
There is no rule that says anybody has to read every single on-topic message in a newsgroup, or even stay with a discussion until it is over - if there even is such a thing ;-)
You are jumping to a highly questionable conclusion here, and exaggerating the scope of Claire's actions. She has welcomed lots of unlikeable opinions and continues to do so, but she is entitled to decide when someone has crossed the line in her opinion.
Actually, that's not what I meant at all. Since J&R is relatively new to most people, there are going to be less hardcore fans inspired enough to be posting on the internet about it, since there's really only 6 episodes worth to talk about so far. (I being one of the exceptions)
And not to make light of anyone, but since more J&R fans right now probably are not hardcore fans of this show who watch every show every time it comes on in syndication, chances are they probably have more of a life outside this show and don't frequent these boards that often.
It took 8 years for R&R to build the kind of hardcore fanbase it has today, I don't expect J&R to have the same fanbase overnight.
Thank you, James. And here I will state for the record that I killfiled Johnson because I suspected he was using more than one pseudonym and lying about it - to cover his tracks in a pattern of really nasty, abusive behavior which got him thrown out of at least one forum that I'm aware of. His response to that strengthens my conviction that this is what has happened.
There. I tried to do it without a lot of fanfare. You did not allow that. You abused me and insulted me and forced the matter to become a major issue. I have no use for somebody as malicious and dishonest as you are. And at least now folks like Priya, who have opinions that differ from mine and have NOT been killfiled because they've never done anything to anybody else here that made me recoil, can be assured that a simple difference of opinion has never been the reason why I chose to turn somebody off. Good day, sir.
abrahammy, I haven't even bothered to read half of this diatribe, but I think resorting to such blatant hyperbole just to discuss about my alledged treatment of you is pretty darn low. Nothing I may have done to you warranted this, and I'm afraid you are coming off looking worse in this than I am.
And you killfiled me because you continue to think I'm someone else? Are you insane? I can't believe you actually took the time to go through a history of posts at various message boards just to think if you can somehow match the tone of text. I have already said I read at Angel's but I don't post there, preferably because of not wanting to deal with emotionally imbalanced people that tend to gather there.
I do find it rather funny when you pull that "it's only TV show" bit when trying to make light of someone's opinions, but as sure as someone has posted here in the past about their dislike or questioning of Ross, you are always the first there to post a 5 page essay on why the writers really screwed Ross over. That to me takes this show too seriously. I don't think even David Schwimmer cares as much as you do.
I'd rather just drop this discussion now with this post, but if you really think that it's "malicious" and "nasty" to call a person's opinion foolish because they basically told us to go f*** overselves, then I believe a single sheet of paper possess a thicker skin than you have.
[snipped bunch of insults and accusations from various people]
Wow... it's getting really rough in here, isn't it? Anonymous, why can't you just take up on the bet Claire has offered you numerous times now and let go? I think it was you, who once said that you could relate very well to what happens to Joey right now, i.e. falling in love with a good friend and this love not being reciprocated... Ever wondered, if maybe, you're relating to this a little too much to it? You fight for J&R as if you were fighting for your life and probably even worse, you just seem to have this need to answer to all of Claire's posts and end your answers with something like "it's not like you're gonna read this anyway, since you killfiled me". Given my history with Tennant, I'm probably not the one to tell you how to behave, I just think you're *slightly* over reacting.... At the end of the day, we're all here because we like the show and it's really not that importan with which fictional guy some fictional girl ends up... Whichever way they take, all we should hope for, is that it's well done and believable - and since it's a comedy program - maybe even funny.
Plenty, they were after all much closer as roommates the last two years. Or have you missed all the storylines they have had together since the end of the 6th season?
If it *seemed* they were stopping it, they would have left no doubt in 817, instead of intentionally leaving them in an awkward state at the end.
They probably will carry on as normal for the next few episodes, but the writers left it open just in case.
No kidding, Sherlock.
Wow, brilliant reasoning there.
Really? So she says no and there's absolute closure? I guess that every time Rachel said no to Ross, you probably took that as absolute closure as well...
And that's why you don't.
Couldn't agree more...about the uselessness of this discussion, that is.
Amazing that the show isn't even done with the 8th season and you are calling the R&R relationship being 8.5 years long..
What *you* may think is best for the show may not be what is best for the show. Remember, the whole point of this show is to put these characters in comic situations. J&R clearly have had more comic potential the last few years, and it is fresh, so those are two major points in their favor.
So you *still* think that everyone wants R&R together? Oh well...
Rachel's pregnancy is a singular moment in Friend's history and season eight's success owes a large part to those final few seconds in season 7. Friends was taking a Survivor beating regularly in season 7.
The pregnancy is certainly bigger than a j/r storyline and I daresay, a r/r storyline. The writers certainly had a plan in mind, else Joey would have been written as the baby's father.
If the writers had a chance to go back I doubt they would change anything.
That's the thing. Sure, if we scrupulously analyzed both entities, we'd no doubt find a couple of things in common. But, on the whole, I've never even come close to thinking, "gee this is a tiny bit like a soap opera." Maybe the complete difference in soundtrack has something to do with it, I don't know.
would
be
Oh, definitely, but that was seasons 6 and 7. That's one reason why Larry Linville was gone after 5 seasons, because actually, the comedy was already beginning to drop just a little, and they had run out of things to do with that one-dimensional character.
But by season 9 or certainly 10, it was starting to get tedious again.
LOL, oh so you were replying to my posts to somehow "enlighten" me to think that Joey and Rachel is over? Please...the only bigger waste of time would be me trying to convince you that Joey and Rachel is not over, which by the way I wasn't doing in the first place.
This is a *discussion* forum, where we come to discuss our opinions. It's not here for us to try to change people's minds, though many tend to fall in that habit.
If your whole intention was to try to convince me that something is over when clearly we have no proof that it is, then 1.) you're naive for thinking that somehow you've made a connection that we J&R fans haven't, 2.) you really don't get the other side's argument if your whole purpose in posting here is to change someone's mind.
No, I wasn't trying to "enlighten" you or anything, it's no use because 1) I have the feeling you're looking down on me. 2) You change your "predictions" when it suits you to tell me I'm wrong. 3) You say I can't say something based solely on that you "know" how old I am when you don't know me at all. 4) You take this waay too seriously. 5) You think the "needs" of a roommate can take first place to those of the father.
I think resorting to such blatant hyperbole just to discuss about my alledged treatment of you is pretty darn low. Nothing I may have done to you warranted this, and I'm afraid you are coming off looking worse in this than I am.<<<
I don't agree with you about your innocence, but I really don't think it's productive at this point to really go into why. It's time for the mudslinging to stop. Both directions.
BOTH directions. (Have you thought about that bet? If you didn't like the arguments, why didn't you take me up on it?)
Are you insane? I can't believe you actually took the time to go through a history of posts at various message boards just to think if you can somehow match the tone of text. <<<
Well, no, I went through the history of posts to make sure I wasn't mistaken about where I had mentioned the idea of killfiling you. This appears to be the first issue that really made you attack me, but I didn't even tell this forum I had done it.
when trying to make light of someone's opinions, <<<
Define the difference between "making light of people's opinions" and "disagreeing with them. " Cite examples.
someone has posted here in the past about their dislike or questioning of Ross, you are always the first there to post a 5 page essay on why the writers really screwed Ross over. That to me takes this show too seriously. I don't think even David Schwimmer cares as much as you do.<<<
That's my pet artistic peeve about the show - character inconsistency. It drives me nuts. It's resulted in some of the worst storytelling the show has ever been guilty of, including scenes that are just unwatchable. I am sorry you don't like it. It probably isn't going to change, unless they get a bit more careful. So, you can choose to ignore my posts if you want to. Call it a quirk. It doesn't really harm you any.
really think that it's "malicious" and "nasty" to call a person's opinion foolish because they basically told us to go f*** overselves, then I believe a single sheet of paper possess a thicker skin than you have.<<<
There is only one time when I did anything that could be construed as doing that. You suggested that spoilers to come were setting us up for a finale with a conflict between Joey and Rachel over his hurt feelings. I said that only a complete d*****ad would force her to chose between the two men or deal with Joey's heartache while she was in labor. You were offended by that comment and said I didn't know **** about men's feelings. You explained in a later post that you did not think Joey would stress Rachel. He'd merely slip away. My response was this:
away,
So actually, once we were on the same page, we really didn't disagree that much anymore, except about whether or not this was actually going to happen. (That's where the bet comes in.). You may have thought that I, in that context, was calling you names; I was really just remembering what it was like to be in labor for a long time and envisioning what I would think about a guy who demanded that I love him while I was pushing! And that was the word that came to mind! It was the reaction of a woman who has been pregnant directed at a hypothetical Joey, not at you personally. I am sorry you thought I was calling YOU names.
The only other thing I've said that you seemed to take real issue about was the fact that I said this storyline was over. That really seemed to piss you off. Well, sorry, I think it's over. I'm allowed to say that. One of us is going to end up being right. Tell ya what, rather than insulting each other about it, we could make a bet...
I have at other times debated with you. Well, that's going to continue. We are North and South here and we will never agree, and neither one of us is ever going to see the show with the other's eyes. Can we please go back to talking about a TV show and not about what bad people we each think the other is? This has got to be, like, the third or fourth time I've asked you to do this.
And I HAVE made a number of attempts to find common ground with you, and I did that deliberately. You didn't seem to notice or acknowledge it. Example:
been
You said the writers wrote themselves into a hole by making Ross the father - they could pursue Joey as a lover if they had not. I basically agreed with you. I still do, actually. Here's another one:
My response:
sensible
preference.
not
That was a pretty pleasant conversation. Now, the issue which seemed to really set this fire going so badly was the killfile. I have removed it, for both you and Tennant. (Though I still don't think I'm going to be sitting around trying to solve those cryptograms.) They appear to be damaging the newsgroup, which is ironic since I put them both in place for the purpose of avoiding the impulse to get into pointless arguments. It appears that in your case the arguments went on anyway. They will remain off as long as the personal slurs remain off.
And since we can't realistically put a monetary bet down, how about this...
-If the season finale/cliffhanger has *anything* to do with Joey's friendship with Rachel, then every day over the summer break you have to start a new post giving a new reason each day on why Joey and Rachel clearly are the best couple ever on Friends.
-If the season finale/cliffhanger is about anything else, then every day over the summer break I will start a new thread on why Ross is the best character on the show, even stooping to insult the other characters in the process to make Ross look even better.
Pardon my intrusion but even you won't be able to find a *new* reason everyday on why J&R are a good couple all through May-September. Seems more unrealistic than the ten dollar bet to me.
If she does agree to this, then perhaps both of you could post one single large post with all the evidance after the finale airs. It would be fun for the rest of us. :)
Well, no. My bet was that Joey wouldn't run away from his friends when he saw how Ross and Rachel were getting along. I think it is QUITE possible they could have a lovely scene where the two of them talk about how nice it is that they have gotten back to normal or something like that. I won't take the bet you are suggesting because I think it would actually be a *good* idea for them to write that! And I won't start a new post every day if Joey does run away because after a few weeks that's going to get kind of tiresome for the entire newsgroup.
And honestly, I wouldn't be able to keep it. Life WILL interfere, and I am going to run out of ideas. It could last, at best, a couple of weeks, and I don't want to be in a position to renege. However, if the cliffhanger is about a *crisis* (not a resolution) in the Joey/Rachel relationship, I will be very happy to write you *one* long essay, with thought and enthusiasm, about every good thing that could come out of a Joey/Rachel pairing. Because I can do that with conviction. There are certainly points that can be made. And many thanks to Priya for the idea.
No, no. You don't have to do that, for the same reasons I don't want to write a daily essay. And you don't have to insult anybody. Just give me an essay discussing the advantages of Rachel staying with Ross.
Also, since I won't write essays based on a friendly scene of resolution, I certainly am not going to make you write essays based on "anything else." Now that we are actually making the bet, I want to make sure it's a fair bet, and that's too broad. If the cliffhanger involves Ross or Rachel declaring love for each other, discussing really getting married again, or some other significant step forward in their relationship with each other, I would like that essay. Now, if Ross and Rachel declare their undying devotion AND Joey skips town, we will BOTH be writing essays on the other's position! Which could be an absolute hoot!
Thank you for taking me up on this (if, of course, you agree to the bet I'm actually negotiating here.) With any luck, this is going to be great fun no matter who wins!
Hmm... advantages of Joey and Rachel...beautiful children... hmm... wait, does she want more children right now......? Gotta think about this a bit. :-)
The Google reader has a few hours delay, so I had not seen this message before I posted previously...
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...
I think the suggestion that Joey and Rachel would have had a lovely scene about their friendship and moved on would have been a lock if this was the *series* finale, not the season finale. Because there is a 9th season, I think they will have Joey being unable to get past his feelings initially in the season finale. And Priya's suggestion seems to make more sense.
And I will do the same.
Sure.
I think if both of those things happen, we can just call the bet a draw just to save the time of both of us doing that.
It sure will, and I thought for a moment you decided to pull out, but I'm glad you took me up on it.
I would start along the lines of something like "giving her the greatest sex ever". ;)
Grin. Now you may get a better idea of the kind of person I actually am. This contest actually has me kind of psyched - and I plan to have a good time with it, even if I lose!
Yes. I think she has turned this into quite a real deal.
resolution, I
else."
or
other, I
other's
AWWWWWWWW.....spoilsport. I think it would be fun to explore the opposing argument, just for the sake of honing debate skills. C'mon, think about how much it will liven up this group.
I'm
fun no
Heh. Not on your life. This is the best idea either of us has had in weeks. I'm actually going to start to look forward to your posts again. We could have a whole act going here before it's all over.. Election pundit style. Now, in case of a close decision, who plays the Supreme Court?
wait,
bit.
Well, that would certainly be closely connected with the beautiful children. Will they tell us when they get past 298 times?
I will take you up on Priya. Tennant thinks Joey is clever and has been a gentleman in his lovelife. However, I want a judge too - I'd name James Squire, but he'd probably throw up his hands and say, "Claire, keep me out of this!"
There is one squeaky possible situation I will address in advance. I got the idea from a tabloid rumor. What if Joey came in, happy and excited, and announced that he had gotten this great part in a sitcom, but he had to move to California? Or something like that - he's moving away for a reason unrelated to Rachel. I'll make a preemptive call. We live in a sporting world where, in short track speed skating, a mediocre skater from Australia can win the gold medal because some other bozo fell and ran into the guy who was actually winning the race. That's an accidental win - but it counted. If Joey is delighted over a really neat job that requires he move, I'll be Ohno and you can be the guy from Australia. This would probably make all his friends - including Rachel - quite sad.
I was being sort of sarcastic since both Priya and Tennant tend to be J&R fans.
I think you should know by now how full of crap tabloid rumors are. There's absolutely no way they could already know what is happening unless they have been lurkning on the set, because the first part of the season finale tapes tonight.
Ok, how about this. Since I tend to believe as well that Joey will get an offer to move to L.A., how about we do this:
-If Joey moves *because* of Rachel, (meaning Joey either initially wanted to stay to help her with the baby and then learned about Ross and her, or can't stand to be around Rachel because he is too heartbroken), then let's say that I would win there.
-If Joey leaving town had nothing to do with Rachel, but then we can tell Rachel starts to feel something when he might be leaving, then we can call that a push.
-If Joey leaving town had nothing to do with Rachel, and Rachel didn't express any feeling about it, then let's say you win there.
Yes, I think this is going to be lots of fun. Thanks for taking my suggestion and one more suggestion, if I may. I know you two read the spoilers and the finale spoiler will be out soon. But I hope you guys can hold off writing your essays until the episode airs in May. For one thing, the spoiler may not contain the actual cliffhanger. Last season's spoiler said nothing Rachel reaction at the end. Plus, many of us won't read your posts until the finale airs. Perhaps it will give you time to do your research ;)
Hey what about me? I would have to somehow each day find a reason that Ross is the best character on the show!
After just a couple of days, that gets extremely difficult to do. ;)
It would be fun, but I've noticed that abrahammy has already posted in this newsgroup since my offer went up, so I assume she saw it and decided not to take the bet.
Oh well, as that coaching genius Jimmy Johnson once said, "You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?"
Oh, I don't know about that. I'd prefer to write a positive character assessment of Ross than writing why Ross and Rachel are 'good' together. But that is the bet, so good luck with that, if it should come to that. ;)
He wouldn't be a loser if he still was in love with her...
But even after 818, I'm beginning to doubt the writers wouldn't make complete idiots of themselves, and completely drop a major storyline almost overnight.
It wouldn't be the first time. They are notorious for this kind of crap. On this issue I really do understand your frustration.
This is the same organization which, in late season four, instantly had Rachel decide she was back in love with Ross after insulting him most of the year. She suddenly lost all focus on the cute guy she'd been pursuing because she couldn't stand that Ross was getting married. She maxed out all her credit cards to follow him across the ocean to break up a wedding she had announced she did not want to attend. Once there, she did actually disrupt his wedding indirectly, and fallout from his lingering feelings for her resulted in the end of his marriage to Emily. During that time, she said repeatedly that she was still in love with him, she told him so, and the idea that she might have to lose contact with him was a huge trauma.
The very instant Emily was out of the picture, the writers had Monica ask her if she intended to go after Ross, and she replied blithely and carelessly that she just couldn't be bothered because of the baggage.
And that was the end of that. After all that. Rachel being in love with Ross at that time wasn't so much a real narrative direction as it was a sweeps stunt.
If - and only if - the show's present trajectory remains unaltered by future decisions, they will have just pulled the same nasty trick on you here that they pulled on us then. One thing we all really need to understand as we get out our crystal balls... the number one reason they do ANYTHING is to get a lot of attention for sweeps stunts and create buzz. They may also make creative decisions based on practical problems; Emily's sudden departure, for example, had much more to do with Helen Baxendale's pregnancy than it did with anything having to do with good storytelling. Joey's short courtship of Rachel may have been a narrative direction, or it may have been the writers hedging their bets in case David Schwimmer, the most stubborn holdout, refused to come back for season nine. I genuinely do not know the answer to that question. If it was about bets hedging, they'd never admit it. Every politician and every other person who does spin doctoring knows that the most valuable phrase is "Oh, I meant to do that" whether they did or not.
^^^This is exactly right. And we should remember it. Sadly TPTB aren't interested in character sentiment at all...it's all about ratings and the commercial profits garnered from such. The paradox is, if they gave us really good, great, gripping funny storylines that moved us, people would watch ANYWAY! But when they falter on the above mentioned storylines they have to do something drastic - perhaps foolishly so - to get people watching again.
I'd like to agree with you, but part of me believes the writers/producers *are* indeed capable of making idiots of themselves by dropping major story lines. I seem to remember Pheobe and her father (ie. her meeting him) being dropped fairly quickly, or at least before a satisfactory conclusion had been arrived at. And maybe also Pheobe and her brother/triplets. For all that they don't really add to the dynamic of the show, still, it was a pretty big story, but have we heard of it in 2 years? And these are the two I can remember off the top of my head....
They have, of course, resorted to the ridiculous in the past as a way of dropping a storyline. I'm thinking of Monica with the billionare guy (soz I don't have a photographic memory...or the DVDs). She thinks they're getting engaged, but instead he's written out of the show via wanting to become an ultimate fighting champion. And there was Gary (?) the NYPD cop Pheobe moved in with, written out via him shooting a bird with his firearm.
This was Pete, played by Jon Favreau, and IMHO he was one of the best temporary boy/girlfriends. I thought he had a lot of charm and charisma and actually showed some chemistry with CCA/Monica.
And there
He was played by Michael Rappaport, now on Boston Public. Nothing against the actor, but I thought the character was silly and cartoonish almost from the beginning. Of course, he had fewer eps than Favreau ... at least I think he did.