Hey. Well I think this was a total waste of an eposoide and considering the fact that there will be reruns for the next two weeks (?) three weeks(?) so I think there should have been some sort of cliffhanger. There was none though. Joey and Rachel have not moved anywhere in this situation. I cannot think of anyway this situation can be resolved without hurting one of the two parties involved ( Joey and Ross) I also think that the whole Mona issue was really werid. If she had real feelings for Ross she would try and work it out, but I doubt that Ross has any hope that that will ever happen. As for Chandler and Monica well I think that last week that had a good oportunity to start a fight through the whole soul mates issue and they also could have started a fight in this eposoide. I just don't understand. They have no good plot-lines and all they were doing this eposoide was putting cds in cases. Something else that is a little annoying all the friends used to all hang out in Monica and Chandler's and in the coffee house. Now it is just groups. as for Phoebe well I am happy that she is finally getting some good plotllines, but still I go back to what I said before a waste of an eposoide. We moved no where with our current plotlines. Rachel and Joey had a brief moment when they were friends again and then *BOOM* right back where they started the uncomfortable stage. It was a waste.
I didn't think it was a waste AT ALL! It was over before I knew it. Oh Mona! I love that woman. I'd like to see their paths cross a few more times. That final scene with Ross and Mona was great I thought. It seemed to open a few possibilities--I mean, if she still feels something for Ross, maybe he could marry her and really screw up her life. heh
As far as Monica goes, I have to agree that she is relegated to minor player this season. They seem to be trying to add a little spice though. In an upcoming episode there is something going on with a food critic. I can only assume this has something to do with Monica. I don't know the details, but I'm looking forward to finding out what's going to happen there.
I wouldn't call this ep a waste of time, but it's definitely not one of the best either, in my opinion.
Regarding Ross, as someone said in another thread, it's like the writers didn't know what to do with him, so they used a silly, ancient sitcom device just to give him (minimal) screen time. After all the episodes that have centered around Ross, DS fans like me have no grounds to complain when he's not seen much in a particular episode; but I'd rather they just have him stand around in the background than use him in such a dumb way.
I also thought the Joey/Rachel business was not very clever or original. Did anybody doubt for even a split second that Joey was going to go charging into her boss' office? Or that Rachel would invent some other outlandish tale to assuage Joey's hurt feelings?
The most promising bit was Alec Baldwin showing up at the end. Baldwin is a fine actor with excellent comic timing, and the prospect of a real story line for Phoebe is something to look forward to.
As for Mona, I liked the last scene, too, but we disagree as to her long-term potential. To me, last night's episode made it crystal clear that Ross now has no feelings for her whatsoever, if indeed he ever felt anything other than lust. How else to explain his nonchalantly leafing through a catalog (Land's End? J. Crew?) while Mona is making out with her new bf 18" away, or his unwillingness to give up his pink shirt to her?
You mean, just as he came clean with Mona in this episode and told her why he was really there? All six would have done the same thing as Rachel - Ross included.
What Ross did has to be viewed in its proper context and not lumped together with what Rachel did. When Mona admitted her feelings and second guessed Ross' at his apartment, Ross let the moment pass graciously. He could have come clean and in the process hurt her feelings by revealing its the pink shirt he's after and not her. Even then Ross deciding to keep the shirt was a broad hint to Mona about where he stands on their relationship without having to say it outright. Mona had already given up on their getting back together anyway. Therefore Ross did the right thing by not telling here as it wouldn't have made any difference as except hurt her feelings or embarassed her. Rachel profiteered from her little lie. After nearly getting her boss in trouble she walks of with one month paid maternity leave minus guilt.
Not that I was bothered with Rachel's behavior in this eppy as it makes for good entertainment.
Thats fine but lets not put a halo over his head. He has lied stupidly many times. The old Ross would have come clean if he was in Rachel's shoes but I'm not so sure about the bumbling fool we've been forced to watch most of this this season.
Come on, he let her believe what she wanted only because it made him look better. Its a lot better to say that, he broke into her house because he still had feelings for her than to say, 'Oh, I just wanted my shirt back'.
Not giving her the shirt showed where he stood with Mona and also the fact that he doesn't really care about how she felt. So, your theory about him not telling her truth to avoid hurting her doesn't sound very convincing to me.
Well, she does get away with a lot. Look at all the crap she put Ross through.
I will put all the observations in this thread under my "sitcom silly" philosophy. Ross did something which was both completely self-serving and at least superficially kind (up to a point). Rachel used an irresponsible lie for personal profit. It was a **terrible** thing to do - the kind of thing you guys rake Ross over the coals for regularly. But if we adhere to Sitcom Silly, we have to realize that the writers do this to all of them and not take it so seriously. None of these folks are really people I'd want to know in real life. Ross used to be, but he doesn't show up much anymore.
Noone's saying that what Rachel did was right. But someone said that, Ross would have acted differently. I disagree. He would have come clean with his boss but after watching all the nonsense he's been upto lately, I wouldn't exclude him from anything the other five would do.
Ross' usually winds up being punished for his stupidity *not* rewarded. He handled Joey/Rachel very well so there is no reason to doubt he would have bumbled if in Rachel's shoes. Anyway, he wasn't in them to begin with in the first place.
Rachel's lie on the other hand was particularly vicious and this was the second time this season we've seen her do that. That's the difference you need to note.
Well for once he had the upper hand in a situation besides it would be plain insult to say, "but its the shirt I wanted not you". Plus who knows how Mona's gonna react.
I was convinced but anyway this looks like a closure between Ross and Mona. 817 to me had 4 filler plots with Ross/Mona given the least airtime. However, I thought this was a significant plot as it showed Ross had absolutely no feelings for Mona and that could have possibly been the last we saw of Mona.
If Ross had been played by Brad Pitt instead, he would be getting away with murder.
No, he wasn't in her shoes but this discussion began with James speculating that Ross would have acted differently than Rachel did. :)
Ross never comes out on top because the writers see Ross as the eternal loser. Its really frustrating to see Ross behave like a sensible person in one episode and do something utterly stupid in the next. I'm sick of it.
I agree. Here's one more difference - whenever Rachel lies, its always cunning and she gets away with them but Ross's lies are so pathetic and lands him in more trouble, which isn't too much fun to watch.
Exactly. How would have Mona reacted? She might have gotten really mad, probably called the cops on him for breaking and entering. So, he took the easy way out by gaining sympathy.
Agreed.
Yeah, we may not see Mona again. Like Claire Abraham, there's some unwritten sitcom rule that supporting actors don't last long with the regulars. Showing closure is okay but they didn't have to do it at the expense of making him look ridiculous yet again. Ross not wanting to give the shirt to Mona reminds me of the time he gave Rachel his tshirt. This would be a better argument for R&R fans than that Melon drink.
Well, I don't know about that. I don't have anything against DS. I think he's a fine actor. If they can't write him a decent story, they should just have him deliver a line or two like Phoebe has done most of this season. If anybody is bashing Ross, its the writers.
Me too. Especially as Joey is allowed to grow and act smart as well as emotional, thus don't have to be the stupid sidekick anymore, or at least not all the time.
Ain't this world bad? Or as the saying goes: "Good girls go to heaven, bad girls everywhere." No, that's not really fitting in here. Maybe it's because most writers of the show are males.
Well, we gratefully take them both as little omens. Although Ross didn't like that Franky Goes to Hollywood shirt like he did like the pink^Wsalmon one.
No, Priya. You and Tennant bash Ross completely out of proportion to anything else happening on the show. Tennant's view is so biased that he automatically blamed Ross for the snafu with the cameras caused by Chandler forgetting to tell him. I had to twist his arm to get him to take it back, and even then he just pretended he meant that Chandler was the one who "stupidly" made the error. Since Tennant never, ever uses such judgmental language with Chandler, I knew it was a coverup. I have enjoyed Tennant's insightful commentary for years, but when the comments get so one-sided and biased that they lose any value, it's not worth the aggravation. I finally killfiled him.
You really killfiled him? Gosh, I don't think he deserved that. See, we all have our favorite character on the show. Ross is your favorite, Monica is Tennant's and Chandler's mine. I'm sure that none of us hate any of the characters so much that we'd attack them needlessly. We really do like Ross but we don't like him as much as you do to overlook certain behavior as Silly Sitcom. Actually, it's because we like Ross, it bothers us to watch him like this. As a huge Ross fan, can you honestly say that you didn't cringe watching him dive under the sofa at Mona's apartment or during all the other scenes this season where he's been made to look like the biggest fool? I'm sure you didn't like them but you seem to be more upset with Tennant and I than the writers who are actually doing this to the character.
I don't like the fact that Chandler's become more boring than watching paint dry. Everybody bitches about that but I can't go around yelling that his actor's got personal problems. Tennant accepts that Monica's behavior was bitchy in 802 but he's always been quick to defend her saying it only lasted 20 seconds! You are doing the same thing by defending Ross by calling it silly sitcom. You didn't like him being referred to as Mental Gellar and we stopped calling him that. But silly sitcom doesn't sound approriate either. You are the one who thought up Screechy Monica and Tennant doesn't seem to mind that term even though she's his favorite character. We're just having a bit of fun here and we have given him credit whenever he's acted like his old mature self. I thought he was really great in 816. I started watching Friends from the second season and Ross was the first character I liked. So, its all the more frustrating to see this kind of shift in behaviour between one episode to the next.
You do it constantly. There are times when I think Rachel is downright evil, but I don't manufacture reasons for it, or blame her for things that were somebody else's fault.
We
I cringed when he attacked the woman in the street in TOW Unagi. I cringed when he gave Mona a key and then changed the lock. I cringed when he had a fit over the sandwich. I cringed at his marriage proposal. No, I did not cringe over the last episode; in fact, it turned out to be much better than I feared. Any one of the Friends would have done this, and to some extent the writers bailed him out by not showing any of the consequences except Mona's forgiveness. The decision to keep the shirt had a mild contrast to the day Ross actually did give back the Tiny T-Shirt.
I did not cringe when he put off explaining Rachel's presence to Mona until he could phrase it appropriately. Everybody tries to choose their moments to give bad news, and that is one of the primary tricks sitcoms use to manufacture problems. It's an old saw, almost a tired saw.
I'm sure
You seem to be more upset with the character than you are with the writers.
I am upset with Tennant because he has killfiled Andre and Dennis for disagreeing with him. That, I think, stuck in my craw more than anything else. He is beginning to sound like he puts his fingers in his ears whenever anybody says anything he doesn't like. But if you killfile enough dissenters with good opinions, you can eventually convince yourself that you have the only literate opinion out there.
No, there are things Ross has done that were unbearable, and I pointed out
several of them. But not EVERYTHING he does which is silly is necessarily
worse than what the others do. Chandler tries to keep a guy from getting
promoted. Phoebe introduces Monica to a guy,. declares him her soulmate,
and suggests continually that Chandler is on his way out; Chandler gets
very neurotic as a result. Phoebe's behavior toward Chandler has been
disgraceful. She's trying to break up their marriage. That's far worse
than anything Ross has done this year. No cries from the audience. Rachel
tells a very damaging lie that gets her boss in trouble and comes out with
extra maternity leave. But Ross under that couch is in a different league?
No, it's just Ross, so you put it in a different league. Ross attacking a
woman on the street? That was indeed a different league. That was
sickening. He should have gone to jail for it.
You didn't like him being
But you were still looking for a name to call. I don't mind people calling Ross Mental Geller when he's Mental Geller, but it isn't EVERY EPISODE. And not everything questionable that he does goes in that category.
He fought it for a year. I also don't call her Screeching Monica constantly, and actually haven't seen her in awhile. But Tennant automatically blamed Ross for Chandler forgetting the cameras. Bashing for the sake of bashing . And when Chandler lied to Monica about the cameras, ran around making fake wedding pictures, and ended up kissing another bride? No outrage at all - but if Ross had done that you'd be falling all over yourselves.
I started
Well, that I agree with. One of the reviewers pointed out that DS is currently in the position where Ross is expected to act like a fool too often and then keep the audience's sympathy. But really, guys, you are getting to be way, way out there. Every time somebody tells you that Tennant gets them into a shouting match and then killfiles them. There are levels between Ross the 816 blameless and Mental Geller - the guy who gave Mona a key and then changed the lock.
And Joey is sometimes dumb. Not always, but sometimes. It's not an act. It's the same level of inconsistent writing. And he's been written as a cheater for years. They make jokes about it. They show it occasionally. The character himself admits it easily. While he might not cheat on Rachel, this business of making St. Joey out to be a knight in shining armor for Rachel as opposed to Evil Ross.... really, really out there.
None of them are really very good or stable people.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:jBpj8.9813$[email]...
are
armor
Yes, I had a long battle with Tennant over Joey's "dumbness" and cheating habits. Tennant was trying to convince me that Joey only cheated once because we only SAW it once. He also tried to convince me that Joey wasn't dumb. How can anybody who watched the show from the beginning say that Joey isn't dumb and isn't a constant cheater?
It depends on what the definition of dumb is...education wise, Joey's not the brightest, but when it comes to relating with people, Joey's "street smart". I never thought of Joey as a cheater...he may have been dating more than 1 girl at once, but he never cheated on a serious girlfriend (perhaps because he hasn't had many, but still).
Joey doesn't know/understand logic...must I name the basic stuff he didn't understand or was clueless about...its not just "book stuff." And whats street smarts? Emotional advice that he has sometimes given doesn't take away from the countless number of times he is dumb, slow and completely "out-of this world."
Sometimes I just want to smack for his stupidity and lack of common sense.
Didn't Joey cheat on Kathy in season 5? He even had Chandler cover for him when he was busy cheating on her. Looked like a serious relationship to me but then again you can't claim to be serious about someone while cheating on the person at the same time. That's the Joey we've been seeing all this while.
Joey hasn't really had any serious relationship cause he doesn't view romantic relationships seriously - its more to satisfy his sexual appetite. I think this is Joey's problem and why Rachel will never consider him as a serious partner. I don't think Joey's dumb, he naive.
His feelings for Rachel are different and most likely mixed with brotherly feelings (hence the protection), close platonic friendship and the fact that he can't have her.
I think he's in the process of discovering relationships are more than sex and we may see Joey coming of age, probably with Rachel's help in the final season.
This would be a pretty good plot for Joey and I don't think it will involve R&J as firstly, there isn't really any chemistry between them. Secondly, Rachel's too much for a naive Joey to handle - she'll chew him up and spit him out.
I agree. I think they will resolve this issue soon. I don't see it being dragged into the next season.
So, you name is Ganesan :) I figured you had Indian roots and I wondered why you would call yourself hell. How come you didn't say anything a while ago when everyone wondered who or what Ganesha was? :)
Well the nara in 'narag' is short for my last name and the g is for Ganesan. :)
Well the person who started the thread was out to start trouble in ATF and I usually stay clear from posts of that nature. Besides I remember Mona knocking an artifact over in 808, but did not realise it was a sculpture of a Hindu deity until I took a closer look. I must say, its nice to see a character on Friends having varied interest esp. culture. He's into mediating (803) and has that cool painting of a 'Brahmin' in his apartment. Not sure if anyone noticed that.
Oh, okay. Since your name is Ganesan, I presume you're from Southern India (Kerala/Tamil Nadu). I, myself am from Chennai.
I have but I thought it was an image of Shiva. I may be wrong, because I remember it vaguely. The picture looks like its made of hay. Is that the one you are talking about? Which episode do we get a good look at what you are talking about?
I'm sorry but I have no recollection of my bashing Ross in episodes that he wasn't acting like a sensible guy. I certainly didn't join in on blaming Ross for the lost disposable cameras. As for Tennant, I want to remind you of 801 where most people didn't like Ross's behaviour but he was defending Ross. When everyone wondered why Ross is stupidly sitting at the kids table, we found reason why it was actually very sweet of Ross. So, don't say that we beat Ross up every chance we get unless there's some amount of reason to it. 817 upset me because he shouldn't have gotten into her house in the first place and it was too much like TOW Pauls the man.
Already told you why I didn't like him in 817 but it turned out better than I feared too. When I saw the trailor, I somehow heard Rachel saying "My boss wants to buy my baby" as "uh, Ross wants to buy my baby" (an honest mistake not because I'm biased).
I agree about the tshirt. I wouldn't have complained if Ross went back to her place when she was home. He might catch her in a bad time with a guy there and so doesn't get a chance to ask about the shirt and Mona presumes he was there because he wanted to fix things between them. Then we could have had the scene at Ross place at the end just like in the episode. This way, he doesn't have to break into her house, hide, get caught and inflict us with a degrading masturbation joke.
yeah, its convenient for them.
I did say that its the writers who are doing this to Ross and in doing so bashing him. Its easier or more indulging to say that Ross is acting stupid than to say, the writers are writing Ross stupid again.
I don't agree with you on this one bit. I thought you killfiled Tennant because you didn't like his comments on Ross but killfiling him because he killfiled Dennis and Andre is not right. Obviously, you haven't read all the posts between Andre and Tennant. If I used a newsreader, I would have killfiled them much sooner than Tennant did. Wouldn't you killfile someone who constantly name called you even after your repeated efforts to be polite to them? Those two were defending a fictional sitcom character by dishing out insults to real people on the newsgroup. Dennis apologised and I haven't seen such remarks from him since but Andre was just plain rude.
I never said that EVERYTHING that he does is silly. Please don't misread my statements like that. I have clearly said that I don't like it when Ross lies or does stupid things that a person like him wouldn't normally do. If Ross was shown like this from Season one, I wouldn't have a problem. After all the crap, they've put this character through, its about time they restored his old self back instead of giving him more lame things to do.
ITA. I wanted to mention this here myself. They have all done horrible things and Rachel and Phoebe have done dreadful things repeatedly.
Phoebe introduces Monica to a guy,. declares him her soulmate,
Phoebe's been a royal bitch even last season too. A lot of people didn't like her behavior in TOW Truth About London. You missed the last season and the audience complaints too but cries were there. And, I'm not blind to the other's major flaws. The problem with Ross acting like an idiot is that he couldn't possibly be so stupid as they've shown him this season.
Its already been done, Claire. I've already explained this anyway.
I'm glad he didn't though. I can't recall which episode this is though. Unagi???
We were looking for another name because he has been behaving in this fashion all through the season. If it was a one episode thing, then we wouldn't have bothered. It isn't EVERY EPISODE but its like EVERY OTHER EPISODE which is worse because you see the Sane Ross and boom you see Stupid Ross. Oh wait, he's sane again...no, he's stupid again. Sorry but thats the way the writers are serving up Ross this season.
ummm... you forgot to mention Ross stealing from his hotel room. :) Chandler didn't have to take any beating because Monica was far worse in 802. But yes, it was terribly stupid of Chandler to do all that he did in that episode.
You haven't read all the stuff that went on before any killfiling took place. Please reconsider killfiling Tennant because your reasons for doing so are not fair.
Well, I was going easy on Ross then. I didn't mark that as Mental Gellar. :)
I don't think its an act. :) Sorry Tennant.
Glad you think that he might not cheat on Rachel. We had to establish why he wouldn't cheat on Rachel and that wasn't easy and the discussion spiralled off into many different routes. As far this discussion, I started out saying that Ross too would have done the same as Rachel in her situation to save his skin. He isn't above doing any of the rotten things that the other five would do. So, I was just lumping them all together when it comes to doing awful things now and then.
Lets face it, we wouldn't watch every week if they were goody two shoes who led perfectly happy and boring lives. Look at the general reaction to Chandler and Monica this season. :)
err... hello? This person constantly wrote things into his reviews to make Ross look really bad, e.g. the comparison between the barbershop quartet - which he has often stated as the point at which he started to dislike R&R - and the flowers Joey gave Rachel at the beginning of their date. People started remarking that this comparison wasnt quite fair, so he backed down by saying it was some sort of inside joke that nobody got except for him and a very small number of other people. That wasn't very helpful for discussion, was it? There were other occasions but I cant be asked to look them up right now, since it's rather late and I have to go to work tomorrow but I want to get a few things out there, but I called him on it at least twice and not in a rude way.
But he never chose to answer any of my questions, instead he just told me that I should go back to reading what he wrote as I obviously didnt get what he had said, with which he implied I was either too dumb to understand his posts or the show. I interpreted that as an insult, but since when I first came here, Tennant was nice enough to answer some of my basic questions I gave him the benefit of the doubt, thinking maybe he had had a bad day or something. What finally sent me over the edge were his remarks about stopping p2p sharing and his word count of S7. There's no way in hell anybody can stop p2p sharing and telling me he doesnt get paid to answer questions which tackle his POV but instead posting a major chart about how many words every character has said in S7 (and I think even compared to S8 up to 816) just a few posts above mine, this just showed me what Tennant thought of people who disagree with him, or rather how he dealt with them - he ignores them. This is the first time I got rude as you call it. I admit to that and I have no problem with it and there's no way I'll apologize. I knew Tennant was going to killfile me anyway, so I took my shot and told him what I thought of him as long as I had the chance. And if you're so blind to put all the blame on me in this, then I'm afraid you'd be better off killfiling me too...
I think you yourself have often said that this group is about discussion, but what kind of discussion is it when you killfile everybody who disagrees with you? Anonymous also is a strong supporter of J/R, but instead of making up twisted comparisons between Joey and Ross, not only is he actually willing to discuss his take on the whole triangle situation with people who disagree with him (which puts him way above Tennant the way I see it), he also has some valid points.
Now I will say for the last time that I'm not an R&R but J&C fan, as far as I'm concerned they can divorce Monica & Chandler right in 818, seeing as the 5th season already destroyed the whole best buddies situation, and instead turned Chandler into an unfunny wuss, whose only problem it is to worry about his commitment issues and Monica became even more annoying. Now that they actually *are* married they are just plain boring and a pain to watch. Chandler needed 17 episodes this season to come up with a good one-liner ("I'm not great at the advice... Can I interest you in a sarcastic comment? ...some cheese?"). We used to get them more or less by the minute and since he is with Monica we've gotten less and less of that, and I miss that big time.
And as for R&R, I dont know if they have any feelings for each other any more, but I think with the baby coming it might be a good thing for them to sit down and finally solve at least some issues of their past, the break to name just one. And even though I believe that at the end of the day this baby was written in to clear the path for a reunion, I dont mind to be proven wrong - either way all I'm asking for is to be entertained by this show, and if they can do so by hooking up Joey & Rachel then they shall proceed....
I just wanted to say that I have nothing against Ross's character, nor anyone's for that matter. I don't like Joey & Rachel out of spite to Ross and Rachel. I really like Joey & Rachel because they are my favorite characters by far on this show, and the decision to have them live together is what brought me back to the show towards the end of the 6th season, after the first part of that season was pretty much awful.
To me, although it may have not been the landmark episode, the paths of fortune for Ross and Rachel & Joey and Rachel swung dramatically after the one hour fantasy in the 6th season, TO That Could Have Been. The episode right before that had Ross rejecting Rachel's sister out of fear that they may had never gotten back together again. Clearly, it seemed like something pulled from the blue, and maybe it had been an indication that going to the storyline was like beating a dead horse.
Then TO That Could Have Been Comes Along, admittedly not the greatest of episodes, but it did have that intriguing storyline, even R&R fans would admit, of Rachel pining after the soap star Joey. Their cute interaction, combined with a really sensual kiss, probably set off some lights in the producers' heads that maybe this was something.
The next episode was TOW The Unagi, and originally had a plot where Ross would help Rachel fix the sink, and at the end there was supposed to be another one of those moments where they look at each other longingly. But mysteriously, the entire storyline was scrapped at the last minute, and filled it in with more of this self-defense Unagi.
And in the very next episode, TOW Ross Dates A Student, the writers create a fire in Phoebe's apartment to get Rachel to move in with Joey. And since then there has been no Ross and Rachel romantic tension, while they have carefully developed the friendship of the platonic roommates through the 7th season, and of course the steady build up in the 8th season.
I see Joey and Ross over the course of the series has received equal treatment, some good and some bad. It's just that Ross started out with the some good part, and when people make that first impression of you they expect it to stick. The same goes for Joey. The fact that they have been able to made the transfer of Ross to Joey as the main the love interest just shows how creative these writers are.
Wait a minute! Didn't a very drunk Rachel puke right after kissing Joey? Didn't look very sensual to me. It was a make believe, fantasy world within Friends and it was 'what could have been' - if Joey was still on that soap and Monica was still fat amongst other things. Joey was this big star and Rachel was a soapy nut infatuated with him. Even then Joey couldn't score.
This is interesting. If this is indeed accurate perhaps it could be the writers do have an R&R reunion in mind but did not want to get into it prematurely and have them break up again.
Actually BKC themselves have said that the idea of R&J was something of an accident and not what they had planned for. And R&R did have sex in season 7 as Rachel's pregnancy foretold. Somewhere in the back of writers mind would have been the father's identity as obviously you don't write a character as pregnant and not have at least an idea where you plan on taking it beforehand.
Joey is certainly not the main love interest for Rachel and what has been demonstrated was Joey's unrequited crush on Rachel. Where the writers plan on taking it, if they ever do decide to pursue it, remains to be seen as Rachel will have to make a profound change of heart. Maybe Joey may come to terms with it or it could be a case of forbidden fruits being the sweetest.
Perhaps the ultimate irony in philandering Joey's life is that he may never be able to have the love of the woman he geuninely wants. Ross the "geek" has had much better success with Rachel. How's that for a situation comedy?
Joey could not score with a hormone-charged Rachel and he certainly could not score with a drunk Rachel in a fantasy world. Could it be possible this sex-machine does not know what makes this one woman he wants so badly tick? Will he be successful in season nine? Stay tuned to find out but I'm betting no way.
As far as I'm concerned you dont need to defend yourself here :) From the beginning you made it very clear that you liked the idea of J&R simply because you liked both of the characters, which I can totally understand (though I'm not hoping for Joey & Chandler hooking up ;) )
Sometimes I wonder why they had so little episodes with a story for Ross and Joey together. The ones I know are pretty good and very funny as well (and from what I've heard TOW the nap partners is one of the best episodes of S7), just thinking about the one where they call Chandler at work, that was actually one of the good comedy moments in S5, of which I didnt see nearly as many in S5 as I did in S4, but maybe that's just me... Andre
Well, that's certainly a terrific reason for it. I don't think any sensible person should try to make you feel like you have to justify your preference. Defend the logic of your arguments? Yes, we all have to do that, but your preference is your preference. There *will* be debate as to whether or not this is going to be the final couple, but I agree that they were an effective platonic pairing. I still miss J&C as a roomate act, though.
I will say that having two Friends fall in love does not appear to make them funnier together. Quite the opposite. Breaking up damaged R&R; getting into a marriage rut damaged C&M.
I don't think the writers ever put Joey in a situation where people *disliked* him quite as much as they did Ross. Joey was stupid - Joey's still stupid - and he was a womanizer, but he was always likeable.
It has been my experience watching sitcoms that it's usually more effective to gradually soften a character that's too harsh than to degrade a beloved character. It is more comfortable to forgive than to get over being disappointed. MASH was a good example; Hot Lips slowly became a very effective protagonist. I don't think the viewers would have enjoyed watching Hawkeye turn into Frank. I think people kind of expect characters to mellow, mature and gain in wisdom over time, not go crazy.
I guess the main question is whether or not the writers actually intended to have Joey be a longterm main love interest. I think the jury is still out. We'll see.
Perhaps you remember that I was one of the people that commented that it wasn't fair? As long as we are getting out what bugs us about each other, here's my side of the story as far as you are concerned.
I find you to be particularly hostile towards me and Tennant. You posted a message once about how you've just caught up with season 4. I was the only one who responded to your post and I told you to check out the remaining seasons so you can grasp the show a little better. Your response wasn't very pleasant and I honestly think you could have worded it more politely. One doesn't have to use abusive terms to come off sounding rude. The other post where I'd posted about spoiler warning, your comment was valid but again rude. I lashed back at you only for that.
, so he backed down by saying
Well, almost every newbie here can say that Tennant was the first to respond to their posts, myself included. Which is why, I defending him here in the first place. Claire Abraham never used to respond to any of my messages when I first got here but I didn't go around calling her names for it. People may or may not respond to your messages. It depends on their time and interest.
I'll give you the p2p thing. I haven't the slightest clue as to where he was coming from since he wouldn't discuss with me either.
I am not going to killfile you. I can't anyway. Your comments to anonymous are well thought out but for some reason you don't exhibit the same reasoning with us. You seem to come right out and bite our heads off.
I'm well aware that you are a J&C fan. Most of us are. Chandler's problems are really more to do with his actor's troubles IMO.
Exactly and until its resolved on the show, we can discuss the possibilities in a civil manner without the name calling and second guessing. Thanks.
Well, that's an optomistic view. I kind of hope you are right. But how would substance abuse by Matthew Perry make it better for the writers to have him have uptyteenth straight episodes where he interacts only with Monica and none where he interacts with Joey? I miss Joey and Chandler too. They were the best relationship this show has ever had.
Thats a good point. It can't be all that difficult to have him walk across the hall and play some foosball with his old roomie. Its a real mystery why the writers always write plots for Chandler only with Monica. Even in those stories, his performance barring a few exceptions has been really nothing to write home about. I saw the old Chandler in 815 - energetic and funny instead of the deadpan expressioned dull guy we've been seeing. MP's seems to be getting better, he's playing tennis and all. I hope he gets back on form soon.
I do hope that you are okay with us on the Ross issue. There's a post in 814 where Tennant written to you about it.
Yes, I do remember that you were one of them, but have you managed to find out about the inside joke yet?
The reason why I have written some hostile posts towards Tennant is because he was more or less asking for it. I'm sure he knows that he will provoke a lot of people with what he says, yet he always tries to make himself look like an innocent angel, I think one of the first times I replied to one of his posts and asked some questions because I felt he interpreted certain scenes in a way they weren't meant to be interpreted he came back with something like "man, I'm having right a luck with trolls these days" which was again quite an insult for no apparent reason (at least for me) that came from his side. As for the S4 post, I was fine with what you wrote, but I kinda thought the "catch up with S5-S7" bit was rather pointless, since I'm obviously a fan of the show (otherwise I wouldnt be here), so this particular part of your reply was just plain superfluous. You seem to admit yourself that these spoiler warning messages by you and Tennant just looked ridiculous. Your intention was honorable, but you just "slightly" overdid it, by the excessive use of copied text in capital letters, so that was all my comment there was about, plus that it really felt like you were sucking up to Tennant
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It's either you dont understand me or I dont understand you. What I was saying was that I was really surprised to see how Tennant, who was kind enough to answer my general newbie stuff could be so harsh on me when I ask him some questions regarding his interpretations of certain parts of the show. Back then I figured that he must have had a bad day or something since instead of actually coming up with useful answers he told me "I have obviously no idea what he is talking about". Now, a) how does Claire Abraham fit into this? b) what's with the name calling? That came up when I realized that I'm never going to get satisfying answers from Tennant and that he will killfile me sooner or later just as he did with Dennis (who saldy enough doesnt seem to be around anymore?). It was very frustrating for me to see how all the effort I had put into wording these questions was a waste of time since the only responses I got were "you dont understand what I'm talking about", or I was called a troll or I was simply ignored. I cant wait to see the next time Tennant will call Ross a three timer because of "TOW the girl in Poughkeepsie". So many people told him that this was insane, especially from a person who is not willing to accept that Joey is often seeing more than one woman at the same time, it's a running gag on the show, much like Ross's failed marriages. c) I'm not expecting anybody to reply to me, but I think I can expect answer from somebody whom I've asked more or less the same questions at least two or three times, especially if that person has enough time to post charts of all the "extra characters" he is able to use on his computer or word count statistics for 6 actors over a time span of roughly 40 episodes (the whole of S7 plus half of S8)
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Hardly anything I said was directed towards you, except for the S4 post and the spoiler message, both of which I have explained above. I tried to give Tennant a little of his own medicine by provoking him, but instead of answering he chose to killfile me. Anonymous actually does make the effort to reply to my posts with well thought out comments of his own unlike Tennant, who just uses comparisons that can barely hold ground
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It may partially be, but how can his medication addiction be held responsible for the lack of J&C stories ever since 424? I think Joey and Chandler are one of the best comedy duos ever since Laurel & Hardy and I cannot understand the writers for not using this great comedic potential they have in these two at all anymore. I mean people even called their scenes in TOW the secret closet a best bud story - which in a way is really sad, since people seem to be desperately wanting to see those two do something together, that they will accept them standing in front of a closet and talking for a few moments as best buds story. With the situation on the show right now, I really hope they remember "TOW Joey's dirty day" and what a guy needs to do to get over a girl (get drunk, go to a strip club etc.). this has best buds story written all over it, and Chandler still "owes" Joey a visit to the strip club, since he went with the girls in that episode and his next girl friend after Kathy was Monica, so no more "getting screwed over". And I dont care if its recycling an old plot, because it blends in very well with Joey's character (he told Ross to get over Carol by going to a strip club in the pilot or the 2nd episode, then TOW Joey's dirty day, and finally 808, where he cancelled a date for Chandler's bachelor party and the supposed stripper) and it should be fun to watch - at least I hope so.
Kind of related to the above: I was really upset with the whole "Ross moving in with J&C" storyline in S5. As I have said somewhere else the scene at the vet in 422, where Ross asks both of them to be his best man is one of my all time favorites of this show. So when he moved in with them I thought that would make for some of the best comedy that show had ever seen but I could not have been more wrong. It had some funny moments, but they could have done so much more with it :(
Hope that helped to make some things a little clearer
I still think you should watch Season 5 at least. You seem to be under the impression that putting Chandler with Monica has made him boring. But, in Season 5, they did some good work together and their stories were funny. Infact, Season 5 has some of the funniest episodes in the series. Chandler got boring from Season 6 onwards, which was also the time, MP had his weight and painkiller addiction problems in season. So, I think his performance was affected by his health. Also, the writers might not have wanted to give him good stories because they might have thought that he wasn't upto to it. Monica doesn't get any good plots because she's always attached to Chandler. In Season 7, MLB was the funniest of them all. Perhaps the writers didn't want put him with MP and drag his performance down as well. Instead we got some really good Joey and Rachel stories.
Well, there are quite a few people on this group who ask for Spoiler space. I had already deleted the spoiler space once in that same thread and it felt stupid that I had done it again the very next day.
I'm confidant that the next season will bring back the all the old elements. They can't drag on the drama for too long.
Ah, so you did watch season 5. Yeah well, it was around that time, Ross's character started taking a turn for the worst.
Maybe you could ask Tennant about it? Since I cant, and I'd really like to know how this comparison can be a joke...
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Which episodes do you have in mind? Normally whenever I get myself a new Season Box of Friends, I take a week or so to watch the whole thing *twice*, but with S5 I just cant be bothered to watch it more than once, at least not for a while. I reckon that if I werent such a huge fan of S4 I might appreciate S5 a lot more, but I cant help it, with the apartment switching, the Joey/Kathy/Chandler triangle, Phoebe's pregnancy, or just the *feel* (I cant explain that in a better way) of episodes like "TOW the free porn", that season is simply stuck in my head as the best of any sitcom or other comedy program for that matter that I've ever seen.
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I'm all for using spoiler space, since I myself try to stay away from them until after I've seen the episodes. I kinda hate myself for already knowing who'll play Chandler's father. Given all the jokes that were made about him, when "he" finally appeared on screen, that musta been one hell of a scene - if you didnt know before hand.
Yeah, I'll ask but don't hold your breath for an answer. He may not tell me either, since the spoiler he used was from a secret source that, he wouldn't divulge. Wait, don't start on him again. :)
Well, okay here's my list of the better season 5 episodes, humour wise:
502: The One With All The Kissing 503: The One Hundredth (the scene with Ross and Joey is classic Friends humour) 504: The One Where Phoebe Hates PBS 505: The One With All the Kips 508: The One With The Thanksgiving Flashbacks (this one is really good too) 509: The One With Ross's Sandwich (I think this one's hilarious) 511: The One With All The Resolutions 512: The One With Chandler's Work Laugh 513: The One With Joey's Bag 514: The One Where Everyone Finds Out (one of my all time favourites) 517: The One With Rachel's Inadvertant Kiss 519: The One Where Ross Can't Flirt
Which marriage proposal are we referring to here? :-)
If it's the one where Ross asked Rachel to marry him during the sonogram I would hardly call that a marriage proposal. Ross asked Rachel to marry him feeling responsible for her and the baby. He feelings towards Rachel was definitely not clear at that point. There's nothing to cringe at all about it and Ross is not an idiot for wanting to marry Rachel even if it were for the wrong reasons.
He didn't even ask. For Ross it's the most natural thing on this planet that two people having a baby should marry if possible, and it was possible in their case. Please mention that this would have been his fourth marriage, or wedding for that matter, and then remember how he reacted after his third in Las Vegas. I think if he had shyly (i.e. like season 1 Ross) asked her if she thought about them marrying for the baby's sake, she might have really considered it, although at that point it was quite unlikely she'd have done it, but of course he had to be like an elephant in a porcellain shop (German saying), crude, clumsy, whatever. Damn authors.
I think they're both very unsure if there are still feelings between them, they just pretend ther're none and refuse thinking about it seriously.
Well, the way he did was hurting Rachel and I'm always cringing when this happens, especially when my favourite character acts this way.
Seriously, this person has some real issues if she can't even stand reading opinions of characters that sharply contrast her own. Abrahammy, not everyone here deifies Ross like you do, so accept people's differences and move on.
Anonymous, did you read the rest of the post? Abrahammy was pointing out how everyone is bashing Ross for things that other characters would not be bashed for if they were in the same situation. Anonymous, before you start writing, "holier than thou" posts like this...I suggest you read the whole conversation.
No amount of "bashing" justifies the use of kilfilling in a responsible manner. The kilfile option was given to newsgroups primarily to skip past spammers, and problem posters who had nothing relevant to add to the discussion of the group.
It was NOT intended, although of course it could be used, as a way to pick and choose which well thought out opinions you like, and which you don't. If I kilfiled every R&R fans' opinion on this newsgroup, then seriously, what kind of newsgroup am I going to be reading? A few posts here and there for pro-J&R opinions, and that's it?
The whole point of a discussion board like this is for people with opposing views to *discuss* their opinions. Those who rather ignore opinions that contrast their own I feel don't have the maturity enough in them to accept other opinions and MOVE ON.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:0Yfj8.13729$[email]...
Chandler
back,
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Seeing how there are more and more people being pissed with his behaviour, I think this guy really needs to think about what he's posting here, otherwise he could just found a mailing list which all the people who agree with him could subscribe to and live happily ever after with his unbalanced reviews. I cant believe to what lengths he's going to find out what the supposed stars on the porn video actually were, just so he could include it in his review. And yet there are people around here, who like his behaviour but call Ross a dork.... wtf?
In fact, the most likely thing Ross would do in this situation is try to get out of it with a lie or half-truth (just as all the characters would), but do it in such a bumbling and transparent way that the other person would see through it immediately. Actually, I think it's rather charming that he's such a bad liar. I think it reveals an honest soul.