Lately, the tone of this place has gotten nastier and nastier. And it does take two to tango, so I'm not acting like I haven't been a part of it. I just wish I did a better job of resisting the temptation to being dragged down into a fight.
And it also seems like lately that in particular Tennant and I have absorbed much of this vitrolic posting, and not coincedentally, it's comes from nearly everyone on the R&R side of things. And even more, I haven't seen one post here from a R&R fan call out another one for "malicious" postings. This whole mean-spiritness on this newsgroup, whether people want to admit it or not, is basically because of differing opinions on which fictional couple should get together on a fictional television show. How sad is it that this place to discuss Friends has degenerated over something as stupid and little as this?
My theory on this is that when one has an idea of how things should be for a long period of time, it is almost impossible to look at anyone who may have differing point of view, and take them seriously. This show's formula, Ross the hopeless romantic lead and Joey the dumb supporting role guy, has been turned on it's head this season, and while it *appears* most viewers have been able to adapt to and welcome the change, I don't think many here have, and some of us who hold *strong* opinions on what is happening tend to bear the brunt of that frustration. I understand that.
Look, whatever happens, happens. I am no longer interested in posting here because it's worth more of my time than I care to give it, and it's not going to matter one way or another who says what here as to how it affects the show. The whole internet could be R&R fans for all I'm concerned, and yet it's such a minute number that I don't think anyone associated with the show would care what we would have to say.
I have enjoyed discussing Friends with many of you, but lately others have just made this place no longer enjoyable.
So, ultimately all this bitterness here is because of R&R fans? I'm sorry, but I don't think so. You say you want to apologize but then you go on about how you were dragged into fights by others and how you can understand that it must be hard for some people letting go of images they've had in their minds for roundabout eight years now. If one were to read between the lines of your statement, one might find that you're actually saying that all those R&R fans are just too narrow minded or stupid to understand what you are saying, whereas you are the one who knows it all. I'm not saying this is what you want to say, it's just the way it comes across, at least to me, so if it wasn't your intention to make out all R&R to be stupid morons, then please say so...
As for Tennant, when I was still able to communicate with him over this group, it soon wasn't about Joey, Ross or anything else show related anymore, but more his general attitude, the same thing Dennis and Claire have complained about. I thought you were decent guy up until the spoilers for the next few episodes came out. They really upset you, to an extent that makes me wonder if one of the next episodes will feature Ross and Rachel deciding to kill Joey, because he might get in the way of their everlasting love, which all of a sudden has resurfaced. The last paragraph sounds as if you were leaving? That's sad in a way, for I personally never had any problems with you or your posts, I just think you take this way too personal...
I totally agree with Anonymous. I was actually considering writing something like that myself. I think that some of the R&R fans are to narrow-minded to consider something new. Everytime somebody say something even relating to the concept of Joey and Rachel there are seven nasty messges condtititioning everything they said. This newsgroup is not the producers of FRIENDS. Sorry to break it but unless David and Marta have time to sit down and read these little posts nothing we say here is going to in anyway affect the show. I thought the point of this newsgroup was to voice opinions and share spoilers and offer insight, yet all thats going on is an exchange of nasty comments. Ross and Rachel might happen , but do you know for a fact that they will? I don't think you do. Rachel and Joey may be a far off conception but people are free to supports whatever they want. I just know writing this that there will be so many negative comments. I never see people on this newsgroup aggreeing. The nasty and rude comments have almost driven me to leave as well. I don't think that Anonymous taking this personally because people direct mean commnets toward a specific post and it makes people feel bad like thier input is nothing. I don't think his message had any know it all feelings maybe you have to much on your mind and you are reading into this to much.
It would be priceless if they weighed in on the arguments in this ng, like the Woody Allen movie where a guy in line at the movie theater is pontificating about the director and the director appears out of nowhere to put him in his place--"It's obvious from your comments that you don't know anything about my work." :-)
It was a scene from _Annie Hall_, and the guy in line was talking about Marshall McLuhan (the communications theorist), not the director of the film. I love that scene! :)
I was following you until the last 10 lines or so, and then you lost me completely. If you could improve your syntax a little I could have some idea what you are trying to say.
I have not meticulously followed this whole argument from beginning to end, but my reading of the hyperbole was that johnsonwalker started it with that comment about all the foolish R&R fans. What's wrong with hyperbole? It draws a reaction, and it sometimes is unwarranted, but it's hardly the end of the world. abrahammy's response was no more hyperbole than the hyperbole she was responding to, since it was quoting it. Now you come along and up the ante. "Every" message about <such and such> elicits "seven" mean responses from R&R fans, so you say. Words like "Every" used this way always raise a red flag for me. As soon as I see them, I know with 99% certainty that it is a gross exaggeration.
Gee, I remember when couples wars used to be the vibrant life-blood of this newsgroup. What happened, folks?
For the record, I am a R&R fan. I enjoy the J&R story. I root for R&R because that is what got me hooked hopelessly on this show. I believe the most ideal resolution would be for both Ross and Rachel to mature considerably, come together in marriage, and raise their child together. I am quite sure that will never happen on this show because the writers find this kind of storyline boring (more's the pity), unproductive in terms of popularity, and too difficult to pull off. Therefore, we are left with a fragmented situation, and there are just as many difficulties with a J&R pairing as there are with a R&R pairing - all because of the child who is the product of yet another casual coupling of two less than responsible adults who have 4 equally irresponsible role models to follow. The blind leading the blind, indeed.
As long as this is the case, there will be fans of R&R and there will be fans of J&R, and the sentiments will run a little deep. I don't know everything about the high blood pressures round these parts lately, but I do know that when you are rooting for one side or the other, the other side's difference of opinion often feels like trash talk. I'm thinking along these lines partly because I just finished avidly following my hometown Division I College basketball team whose season bit the dust in the first round of the NCAA tournament, and in the conference my team is in, half the teams (including mine) have online message boards, and we visit each other's boards and engage in trash-talking. All too easily it degenerates into that, and when the other side trumpets the exploits of their team, it raises your ire because the rivalry is so heated. Objectivity is thrown out the window. You get hacked off at the other side, not because they aren't making any sense, but because they are rooting against your side.
OK, before I lose everybody in another one of my failed analogies....
All I mean is that I don't see what is so wrong about drawing a few fanciful conclusions favorable to your own wishes from a set of upcoming spoilers. Somebody somewhere looked ahead at those spoilers and decided to read the tea leaves such that J&R ain't gonna happen (I missed it originally, but I gather from johnsonwalker's comments this is what happened).
So what?
In a separate but overlapping scenario, abrahammy decides to killfile johnsonwalker. I am not a corroborating witness on this one, but I am a character witness. abrahammy *could* be mistaken, but she's *not* petty. Something of real substance provoked her to this action, and people should just get over it. Discourse is never going to be perfect in here. There are always going to be people who rub other people the wrong way, and sometimes vice versa. The killfile is actually a wonderful invention that keeps some level of sanity in here. Trust me, if anyone truly killfiles people simply because they disagree with them, that person will end up being the only one being punished: by silence. If there is such a thing as abusing a killfile, the only one who gets abused is the owner of that killfile. Everyone else breathes a sigh of relief and gets on happily with each other. Meanwhile the abuser ends up talking to him/her-self.
I pine for the days of Lulu calling Ross & Rachel a soap opera 2 episodes after The List. And all the other golden a.t.f. oldies who were insisting that Ross & Rachel were *already* the ruination of Friends - back in season 2 (wasn't that a previous lifetime?).
You're right! Back in those days you get clobbered for saying stuff about r/r. A large section of fans claimed the show was Friends not Lovers. I wonder what they would have thought then about hooking up Monica and Chandler too? I remember when someone made racial slurs by compared Marcel to Julie; boy you would have thought a war had erupted on atf.
One of the poster I recall was 'Milo'. Any idea what happened to him? This guy was unbelievable. He used to deride every eppy of Friends with his I hate Friends or Friends is stupid msg and getting cut down by numerous posters. For someone who hated Friends so much he spend an awful amount of time on atf.
Actually, I didn't mean that as sarcasm. After reading these threads, I *am actually* pining for those days. Not that those days were a barrel of laughs at the time.
I remember a couple of people who could have fit that category, and if I'm so moved, I might even be able to hunt down who it was. Yes, indeed, I have saved my AOL filing cabinets all the way back to those days. At one point I was thinking about summarizing some of the comments from a.t.f. about a given episode and including that in my comment page for that episode (that was back when I dreamed about actually keeping a Friends website current and complete - what a dreamer I was ;-) ). I found the quote by Lulu in a discussion about TOW Russ.
There were a couple of people who kept arguing that the show had been ruined and would never be good again, and we had our fair share of "Get a life, folks, it's just a TV show" trolls as well. I think Dan Silverstein was a regular poster back then, so he might remember as well. We also had *the best* off-topic sub-group this newsgroup has ever seen back then. I remember some guy named Dionysian Don, but that's the only one I remember by name. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889
[email] (JamesS1889) pondered carefully before writing news:[email]:
<snipped>
Dionysian Don, omg, what a blast from the past...he truly was/is one of the best people I've ever met on-line. He met his now wife Denise in here, and they both would post. In my mind he is your classic usenet poster; polite, firm, argumentative, respectful and ultimately able to agree to disagree without grabbing your head and stuffing your mind full of his ideas...
[email] (JamesS1889) pondered carefully before writing news:[email]:
lol@'bring it off' Yeah, people like Don can be intimidating...
I met him through a massive argument I'd had with raven about taking this newsgroup too damn seriously. Don and I got off on the most wrong of wrong foots, but due to the fact we're both mature adults <;-)> we eventually ended up being good friends. In fact, I had to go to him once when I was troubled by something in my real life and he was very supportive...and all round good guy...
Lee Green had a brain tumor. He was posting very well on a Thanksgiving day - and then suddenly, without warning, we learned he was dying and would not be able to post by himself ever again. It was devestating. I was really freaked out about it.
I thought that was what it was, but I wasn't sure and didn't want to say if I wasn't sure. I've got a beloved theology professor who will probably not see 2003 because of a brain tumor, and it has been a bit unnerving for me as well. I don't know that "freaked out" would have described my feelings when Lee was suddenly struck with his, but it's probably in the same neighborhood. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889
No no, I knew what happened to him, just commenting, y'know, 'what about him?' as in does anyone remember any funny stories about him. Personally, I remember him being *not* as funny as he liked to believe ;-) but almost impossible to offend. A very unflappable guy.
I'd been away from here for about 6 months, and previous to that comwriter and I had enjoyed a somewhat caustic relationship (he could be highly controversial - but in a nice way), but - again with us being adults - we'd buried the hatchet.
Then I came back and noticed he wasn't around here anymore. I asked why and recieved a mail from Denise telling me he'd died. I mailed his wife, feeling a bit awkward as we'd never met, but she mailed me back, thanking me for me words and said that she'd recieved some lovely mails from all the people on ATF. I have to tell you on the one hand I felt some regret that the short time I'd known him on here had been filled with he and I vehemently no agreeing, and on the other hand that the friendly side of our relationship started and ended all too soon.
It still seems strange being in here and not seeing his many postings.
I guess it just shows the evanescent nature of on-line life...
I don't recall ever getting into anything with him, but I remember his cute looking .sig, a precocious (sp?) little finger peering over a wall with his fingers curled over the edge, as I recall ;-)
lol I remember his sig now...hehehehehe...He grated on me right away. I suppose two people that can be abbrasive are going to have that effect on one another <thinks about Andre and Tennant...no offense boys...>, but he was a sharp character, and imho this place needs someone like him...Don was an excellent foil for him...
dont worry, I dont feel /abused/ by what you said ;-) But I've come to the conclusion that it's pretty much a Joey-Janice situation between me and Tennant :-)
There's many a times when I just want to pull my arm off so I have something to throw at him.... But I guess he felt the same way about me, before he killfiled me. Hmm... But then again if I were Joey, he'd be fighting all over the place for my intelligence which is rather doubtful. Obviously I don't know anything about his voice, but I know mine's nothing like Janice's.... And neither am I divorced nor do I have a child, and certainly don't qualify as a womanizer. Since I have my "Abitur" (A-Levels in the UK, can't think of the "US version") I'd say I'm more educated than Joey is. Also I'm an only-child. Never been involved with someone who sells matresses....
Man I'm giving this a lot of thought - but I can't come to a conclusion. Let's have a poll on it! :)
[email] (JamesS1889) pondered carefully before writing news:[email]:
<extensive snipping of analogies and the break-down of the use of hyperbole in a usenet scenario....>
omfg, you are so right with this last paragraph...obviously I can't comment on any of the previous stuff because I haven't been lurking here for long and therefore I'm not aware of this current season of R&R squabbling (my own take on it is, while it was great watching the show whilst they were a couple, it's now 5 years on, so roll with it).
That being said, I used to post extensively about 3 years ago and I also fondly remember the days of people saying "shit, that's the show down the tubes..." when the R&R relationship crystalized.
If I remember rightly, the most respected members of atf back in those days were those that *didn't* put themselves in any group, R&R or otherwise, but instead came in here to comment on the show and have a giggle. I can't remember any pouring over every cut of every scene, or any of the politics regarding which couple the producers of this television show should put together etc. It was much later that the R&R corps sprung up, and gee...look what's happened to the place now. The only recognisable things about it are claire's eloquent posts and Tennants seemingly self- reproducing replies. heheheheh
Well Friends survived and is not the #1 rated show. So much for those predictions.
Now what exactly is the problem with atf at present? The R&R corps as you call it were existing on this usenet since 95/96 as far as I can remember. And quite significantly too, along with the no couples group that formed a significant group. At the very least the members today are a lot more courteous and respectful. You don't get to see the swearing, profanity and even the racial slurs that had plagued atf for a long time when Julie showed up. Thanks for reminding me why I stayed away from atf for a long time.
I don't know why Claire Abraham killfiled Paul Johnson Walker, so I can't comment, but third parties tell me that she has killfiled me - but since she never told me why, I can't comment on that either.
Meanwhile I am being traduced on this group for killfiling Andr� Knoche on the grounds that he disagreed with me - but this is not true, he well knows that it was for continued personal abuse.
Well, the kind of bet Johnson and I currently have going. If the cliffhanger involves a major conflict or crisis regarding Joey's heartache over loving Rachel, Johnson wins. If the cliffhanger includes a major development in R&R's relationship, I win. If it has both or neither, we have a draw. Loser has to write an essay defending the winner's position. It's fun and it cleared things right up, at least for the time being. We made intellectual stakes and the emotional stakes have nicely withered as this goes back to being a fun game about who is the better mindreader regarding the writers.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:ucbp8.1564$[email]...
There's one difference though. Tennant permanently accuses me of being a troll and telling lies to everybody on ATF, whereas I try to keep my mouth shut in here as far as Tennant is concerned, so I don't get myself into more trouble and false accusations. Furthermore it seems if Tennant would like to make himself look completely innocent in this whole mess, like I started violently insulting and attacking him for no reason.
He reposted his review for 8-12 the other day, and interestingly enough he cut out his "joke" comparison (the flowers Joey brought Rachel with the barbershop quartet) that a lot of people, including me and priya asked/complained about - something he never bothered to explain. And that is why I got mad at him, for he'd often make comparisons or statements that simply lacked any kind of logic and if somebody told him so, he'd either ignore those people or tell them they don't understand what he's saying, thereby making these other people look stupid. I don't think this can be settled with a bet. All I want is him to stop calling me (and also Dennis) a troll and a liar, since it simply isn't true.
Ah, that's an excellent plan; but I don't think it would work with someone who is so arrogant that he reserves the right to personally abuse me should he think I deserve it; or demands that I justify myself on point-by-point basis in reply to one of his endless tirades.
For the record: All I asked him for, was to tell me where he felt I had insulted him, since AFAICR most of the insulting took place after he'd already killfiled me. Also I think it's funny that the guy who regularily posts messages which are like 30kb or even bigger calls my emails /endless/ tirades... And as for the "right to abuse him" (BTW: I think the word "abuse" makes it seem a whole lot worse than it was, but poor Tennant seems to be going for tears here), I do believe in the right of stating my own opinion and if he can't deal with it, that is tough luck, but there is no need to call me dumb....
"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message news:a85b07$8ee$[email]...
someone
point-by-point
since
are
it
Observation on this thread:
It began as part of a bitter argument between Paul and myself. That argument has been resolved because we *both* just agreed to adopt a fun resolution technique, and then laid the junk that accompanied it aside as useless, unnecessary, unproductive and detrimental to our mutual enjoyment of this group. It only worked because we *both* ultimately wanted to be happy and have fun here.
The thread has now become a vestibule for a bitter argument between Andre and Tennant.
Is there just bad karma around this piece of bandwith, or what? Guys, *both of you* - get a clue. Or I'll wield the controversial Killfile of Doom against BOTH of you this time. :-) Is this any fun at all for either of you?
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:1Cqp8.3176$[email]...
*both
a) I'm kind of getting used to being killfiled, so if you feel like it, go ahead ;-)
b) Obviously Mr. Stuart has some sort of reading difficulties as throughout all the emails I've sent I've given him 2 choices, just to stop calling me a liar and a troll or to try and talk in a civil manner about the problems we've had. I didn't even want him to stop killfiling me, I just wanted to solve these issues, so that these stupid and annoying posts both of us make could stop. He chose to do the opposite, he still feels I don't deserve any of his precious time, so I'm more or less having a monologue by email, he still repeatedly calls me a liar and I'm not letting him get away with it, so for every post in which he calls me a liar, I'll post my version too. On the other hand, if he'd stop calling me a liar and a troll, there'd be no need for me to write bitter replies to his posts, so it's pretty much up to him.
In some African tribes, when the village elders gather around the fire to discuss issues of the day, anyone who wishes to speak must stand on one leg. As soon as your foot touches the ground, you have to shut up. Of course, the huge advantage of this arrangement is that the old men are less able to balance! ISTM that this would be an excellent system for our politicians to adopt...
Johnsonwalker, that didn't sound like much of an apology. If you are burning your bridged behind you because this group is no fun for you anymore, that's your right, just as much as it is anybody's right to exercise their killfile at their own discretion. This newsgroup is certainly not important in the grand scheme of things.
I think the main reason R&R fans don't like the idea of R&J is because the show has been so bad of recent, they think having an R&R relationship might somehow improve the quality of it, sort of take us back to the good old days on S2. I'm not ruling out the possibility of R&R, just saying that it won't make the show any better.
I guess this is coming from discussions in the spoiler thread. I don't know what was going on but I can guess. In the end, it doesn't matter who Rachel ends up with on the show as long as its done right. After all, its only a show. I hope you don't leave. Keep your cool, there's an entire season ahead and we'll see how it goes.