I've seen Will & Grace before, but last night I don't think I've laughed like that for years. I realised how much Friends has gone downhill since really the end of season 5. I don't know what it is that makes me continue to watch the show, maybe it's the fact that I'm still hoping it will get better. I believe that the reason the show got such good ratings (mid-season) in the last season was the soap-style Rachel & Joey story, the very fact that the ratings dropped after that shows a lot.
I know this has been argued about before, but watching Will & Grace last night brought it all screaming back. What is going on with the show? Seriously!
He said the ratings dropped after they dropped the Joey/Rachel story. That was in the middle of the season. The fact that the ratings made a comeback for the season finale in no way invalidates Owen's point.
And you need to spend a little more time here before you go around labeling people as anti-friends. Owen is a long-time regular here and is quite the fan of Friends, which is exactly why he is bemoaning the ratings decline.
You might start by taking note of the fact that this is a newsgroup and not a list.
I'm not much of a fan of Will and Grace either, but I bet you I could find at least one Will and Grace episode that is, by any objective standard, more humorous than the worst episode of Friends. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html
Some people are so shallow. If you have your own brain, you could judge a show based on more than the ratings. I'm a big fan of Friends but I would certainly agree the show has declined in recent seasons. In my opinion, it peaked or "jumped the shark" when Chandler moved in with Monica. I would even nail it down to episode 606 (TOW The Last Night). At that point, the whole dynamic of the show changed. The Ross and Rachel thing was over. It was no longer the guys against the girls (Joey & Chandler vs. Rachel & Monica). We lost the sexual tension and the warm communal environment of the six Friends supporting each other through their personal and work troubles. When was the last time you saw all six gathered at the coffee shop to talk about anything meaningful? What are we left with? Chandler and Monica's petty domestic squabbles, Joey's childish crush on Rachel, and Ross and Phoebe are basically on the sidelines. It is a different and weaker show than it used to be.
You didn't include the provious message in your reply, but I'll presume you're talking about me. I wasn't using ratings as a means of demonstrating how much the show has gone down hill. What I was trying to say is that people are watching because of the soap-style storylines (J&R), and not because the writing is good.
The minute we started having C&M storylines, the show lost it. From season 5 onwards, it was never the same. I wouldn't blame the structure of the group as a reason though, as they all act so well with each other. I think the thing that lost it was that storylines no longer intertwined, and the show became something with three storylines involving two characters. We need more of the group together.
My point exactly, the characters don't seem to have any impact on each other any more. Chandler and Monica have changed as characters, and I think they've dragged everyone down with them.
Which is exactly my opinion. Unfortunately, the writers don't seem to realise this, and think that they're doing ok because they have good ratings.
I totally agree with you Bryan. The show is less witty and funny since it's focused on the storyline and not on the situations (sitcom=situation comedy after all!). "Bryan" a �crit dans le message de news: [email]...
Thanks, and I did mean mid-season. A finale with a birth will always pull huge ratings. What I was trying to say was the reason the ratings went up so much during the whole J&R thing was because of J&R, not because the show's quality was improving.
Thanks for the support, the fact that he thought this was a list says something.
Exactly my point, and I think you'll find many of the worst Friends episodes have been aired in the last two seasons, which is why Will & Grace stood out so much, I realised how much I havn't been laughing whilst watching Friends.
I meant mid-season, the finale will always pull a big audience.
I'm not anti-friends, I'm anti-bad writing.
Yes but the funniest episode of Friends was a long time ago. I'd watch Season two of Friends instead of any season of Will and Grace. But I'd watch any season of Will & Grace instead of Season 8 of Friends.
Perhaps you all need to look at other shows and then you will see how much better Friends is compared to any show on the air. This is the first year the show has been number one for the entire season.
If you want to trash the show, fine. It's still ten times better than any show on the air and perhaps when it is gone next year you will notice -- instead of supporting the show that is still on the air.
You are obviously someone who doesn't read other people's responses.
You are entitled to your opinion about Friends, but you are so out of touch with where Owen and others here are coming from that you haven't got a clue. The only trashing that is going on here is being done by you - towards the sincere opinions of others. And the fact that we *do* sample other shows is patently obvious to even the casual observer.
Again, somebody hasn't included the original message in a response, so I'll presume your talking to me :) Did you not read the subject header? It included the title of *another* show, namely Will & Grace.
I'm not trashing the show in any way, but I think I can take it for granted that you havn't seen every episode more than ten times like the real fans on here. What we are discussing is the drop in quality which the show has gone through, especially after S5, not whether other shows are better. I was simply using Will & Grace as a means of illustrating my point.
Perhaps I'm just sick of criticism for the show. This continues to be a great show and it gets no respect -- it has never won an emmy for best comedy series. I just don't expect to hear such grave criticism on a fan message board. You have problems with the show, you think will and grace is a better show -- you have that right to your opinion but I would suggest going to their newsgroup and posting there. You have the right to your opinions as much as I do and I think Friends is the best comedy out there, no question. With the state of comedy such as it is, criticizing the best show on the air does not make sense. On that point, what does everyone think about scrubs -- the show set to replace Friends?
What the hell am I doing wrong, I'm not saying the show is rubbish, I'm saying that it isn't as good as it was. ATF is a place where fans can discuss the good AND BAD points of a show. Nothing is, and will ever be perfect. The problem is that Friends has been around for so long, it's like two shows. Will & Grace is currently better than Friends, in my opinion but the first five seasons of Friends beat Will & Grace any day. I watched Scrubs last night and it was crap, happy?
Newsgroups are filled with the unexpected. You should get used to it.
That much was certain.
funnier is in the eye of the beholder.
newsgroup
Why? It would be easy and boring to criticize Friends on the Will and Grace newsgroup, and that's even assuming the regulars over there would give a rat's hat about what's wrong with Friends anyway.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you should know that most of the patrons of this newsgroup welcome criticism of our favorite show, and also know the difference between criticism and hatred, as if one can't possibly criticize that which one loves.
Actually, how does it make any difference what we say here in this newsgroup? We are such a tiny portion of the actual viewing audience that it is hard for me to see how we can hurt the show by what we say in here.
I tried it, but I just couldn't get into it. I said the same thing about Will and Grace, by the way. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html
"Owen Shiers" wrote in message news:QY729.2930$U44.174666@newsfep2-gui...
the
I think there might be a measure of complacency, Owen. The writers have gotten into kind of a rut.
1. They rarely have stories which feature the entire group of six all together at the same time. 2. They keep putting the same combinations of people together episode after episode, which was how Monica and Chandler got so seriously overused. 3. They throw a lot of attention and care into their primary story arcs, so those tend to be well-written and interesting, but then they toss in filler for the other characters which tends to feature exaggerated, cartoonish depictions of their worst character traits. In short, they only write well for two or three people at a time. 4. They put too much focus on inter-character romance - which is how the R&R off-again on-again merry go round got so annoying for so many people. 5. They are slaves to contrived sweeps stunts.
I actually did tune out entirely in season seven. From what few reruns I've caught, I didn't really miss all that much. On the other hand, I do think season eight was the best we've seen since season five. The only season I did not think had any serious flaws at all was season one. (In season five, the serious flaw was the heavy-handed and complete destruction of Ross as a sympathetic character. Other than that, it was terrific.) In season eight, the serious flaws lay in the severe underuse of Phoebe, the continued trashing of Ross, and some strange writing late in the love triangle storyline. (Moping around does not work well for Joey as a character. It was very jarring to see that conflict suddenly evaporate. Rachel's behavior in the clip story was unforgiveable. Why would Joey drop his feelings for what, SEVEN episodes, and then suddenly the writers make a cliffhanger about a *really* forced, contrived, and unbelievable proposal? Other than that, and these amounted to occasional glitches, it was quite a good season and the critical acclaim indicates that.
Exactly, as a consequence, the relationship between the characters have changed. There's nothing dynamic anymore.
Tell me about it. I think C&M seriously screwed up the show, they should have broken them off at the end of the fifth season. Chandler has changed completely, he's no longer the pathetic, sarcastic wimp THAT WE LOVED!! He's just his wife's servent.
They throw a lot of attention and care into
What else has alarmed me is the amount of times they keep refering to the past to get a laugh. There have been two episodes in the last two seasons, where the main storylines have been about revealing other characters embarrassing history.
They put too much focus on inter-
Oh tell me about it, every single episode in season 8 had a storyline involving Rachel's pregnancy. What else pissed me off was that Joey matured so much in season 8 and had great chemistry with Rachel, but then they'd revert to an old "Dumb Joey" joke to get a laugh.
They are slaves to contrived sweeps stunts.
Have you noticed that the show's quality has gone downhill since they signed the contracts?
Same here, but still poor.
The only season I did not think had any serious flaws
Ross makes me cringe, the whole thing with Mona was pathetic.
In season eight, the serious flaws lay in the severe underuse of Phoebe, the continued
Perhaps the American press is a little kinder? None of my friends watch the show anymore, and I'm talking about five big fans here. The inconsistencies seem to keep growing, and the unpredictability of each character is terrible. Unfortunately, I know season 9 won't be any better.
Well, indeed, it might not be thousands, but it usually IS several hundred every time I take time away. The last time I was gone for 4 days the number was over 300. Sadly, I didn't have time to read them all. I didn't even attempt to skim them all.
"all around the world, gotta spread the word"... okay definitely too much oasis recently. i also cant be asked to use my shift key at the moment, hence no capital letters. first i went to england to visit my friends and discover the beauty that is worthington's ;) (and also picked up a few cds and dvds, i just love these "buy one get one free" or "buy three for the price of two" deals you get everywhere), then i came home for a few hours, packed another bag and left to go camping for a week with some friends. now i am back to find alt.music.oasis with nearly 5000 unread messages, while atf clocks in at about 500... also i had about 80 emails, about 30 were junkmail, windows2000 sp3 has been released while i was gone bla bla bla... think i've already gone through 500mb-1gb again
I think you have Oasis on the brain Andre (see I can be assed to use my shift key). I'm finally back after a two week spell in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Italy. Which was nice. Came home to 400 new emails, 90% of which were spam...I think I need to change my email address. Those buy one get one free things are cool, though they only seem to do them in MVC, who charge more than average prices anyway. I'm not too keen on Worthington's, though Grolsch (spelling right?) is nice. German beer rocks by the way ;)
You think? Just because I have about 800 MP3s of them doesn't make me obsessed now does it? ;-) One of the AMO FTPs carries a bunch of Foo Fighters bootlegs as well, of which I've downloaded "Rock in Rio 2001" and "live in Amsterdam 2000". There's a Nirvana folder on there as well, will look into that one sometime soon...
Yeh, but you're just showing off now :P
Sounds like a good idea. Apparently there is a freemail service at www.fuckhotmail.com or at least you can get a mail forwarder there :-)
I saw them in HMV, Virgin, Woolworth's (but I really wouldn't buy CDs there ;) ) and Tony's Records or something like that, but that seems to be a local shop or a very small chain
Dunno. Strangely I've never come across Grolsch over here, but I'm desperately trying to find a shop over here that carries it (in fact I'm gonna leave for "British specialities" shop after I've finished this post)
hehe... yeah, whenever I come to England I bring a couple of Beck's cans with me, cos it's my former host father's favourite lager.
And back on the original topic I have to agree with you that Will & Grace is pretty good, even the dubbed German version is funny, something that you can't say about Friends at all. But then again, I've always agreed with you that somewhere during S5/S6-ish, Friends lost something they haven't gotten back yet, even though they're getting more critical praise now than they ever did before.
Also, since I've reached the point where I know most of S1-S4 by heart, I sometimes watch/tape the German versions and the word "cringeworthy" would be putting it mildly... Last week 'TOT morning after' was on, and it sounded the way I'd imagine a break up between Minnie and Micky Mouse....
If you're that lazy, just use caps, although you'll get flamed.
Oh I like it!! I found a free domain service at www.dot.tk but I still need space.
Yeah, I NEVER buy CD's. With Kazaa, WinMX I can have my cake and my hapenny, and enough left for some Haribo!
It's Dutch though!
I had a drink called "Ragle", what's in it? I was also dissapointed to find out that not one German knew what a "Wustenspringmaus" is...
Exactly. The thing is, anything anyone says on here is pulled apart. I was just using Will & Grace as an example, it made me realise how much Friends has lost since Season 5. Season 8 was better, but still not as good as the show was.
Ha! I can't stand dubbed stuff. In Italy, they had dubbed German soap, it was awful! Also, is it me, or are the German adverts worse than watching Tellytubbies? Red Dwarf is a classic, though what happened to the ninth season? Or was it the tenth...
alt.music.oasis - the group website is www.heathenchemistry.org and if you want an account for the FTP in question, go to the FTP section and click on 'Supernova'
That can be fun sometimes, but I'm not in the mood right now
lol! I still buy albums if I think they're good. But with MP3s you're not in such a hurry to buy it
Then why would I know about the spelling? Dutch to me has always sounded like a heavily drunk German (no offense to any Dutch people around)
not in my book. I came across a rather interesting interview with Dave Grohl on mtv.com the other day, where he compares some experiences of being in Nirvana to being in the Foo Fighters. Was quite interesting, I'll see if I can find the url if you're interested.
Definitely. I was royally pissed when I got the newsletter saying they were playing a small gig in Cologne and I couldn't afford to go (two weeks ago) - and to top it all off, right after the US tour, they're gonna tour the UK in November... No German gigs announced yet, *grrr*
It sounds very similar, I'll give you that
You sure it wasn't "Radler", which is lager and Sprite, it's not supposed to get you drunk but to be refreshing
Well, I had to look it up in my good ol' online dictionary ;-)
woah... didn't know hitting Alt+S sends in OE as well.... ignore the other post!
I'm not obsessed, I'm just a collector ;P
alt.music.oasis - the group website is www.heathenchemistry.org and if you want an account for the FTP in question, go to the FTP section and click on 'Supernova'
That can be fun sometimes, but I'm not in the mood right now
lol! I still buy albums if I think they're good. But with MP3s you're not in such a hurry to buy it
Then why would I know about the spelling? Dutch to me has always sounded like a heavily drunk German (no offense to any Dutch people around)
Sorry, no idea
Gerbill - or is it some kind of weird drink?
True. Although I'm not sure about S8 being so much of an improvement, but that might be because I've only seen S6 and S7 once and then I borrowed the DVDs to a friend and then another one... I haven't seen them since April/May this year
They are awful either way
What's so bad about watching Teletubbies?? And most German adverts are rather lame I guess... About four years ago it was really in to advertise everything with a naked woman (cos that's allowed over here :P ) though
According to all my friends everything after S5 is supposed to be shite anyway (don't I know that from somewhere?), so I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing that it hasn't come out yet. Wonder what the film is going to be like, another one I'm going to have to watch in the original (English) version. I just realized the other day, that it's rather likely I won't be able to watch "Serving Sara", the new MP film, because there's no way I'll put up with a dubbed MP after having watched nearly 200 episodes of Friends. And the chances of it being shown in the English version are rather slim I guess
"Owen Shiers" wrote in message news:QY729.2930$U44.174666@newsfep2-gui...
You must have seen the Matt Damon episode or something from the first season. Other than that, the show sucks.
the
It got great ratings at the beginning of the season. All that "since 9/11, people want to return to comforting shows" malarke.
And when did the show *not* have a soap-style storyline?
I think the show's peak was in season four, but Friends is in perfectly fine shape, IMO. And given the increased number of Emmy nominations along with the critical acclaim for the show and for MLB, I don't see the show being regarded in the same way you do.
It was the epsisode when Jack hasn't told his mother he was gay. And it was funny.
Ratings don't mean quality shows.
It's always had them, but it's not using them as a means of pulling audiences. Everyone seems to be obsessed with whether R&R will get together in the new season, not whether we'll see a return to some clever writing and good character chemistry,
Friends is still a goof show, I'm not saying it completely sucks. Joey was one of the highlights of the last season for me. Perhaps if you'd join in the discussion of the episodes, you'd see that not everyone thinks every episode is great. We border on the obsessive when it comes to little details and continuity.
"Owen Shiers" wrote in message news:18t39.929$[email]...
Who said it was? Just correcting you.
together
and
That was the same after the season one finale--who's that Asian chick? And what will Rachel do?
details
I join in the discussion plenty, thank you.
This NG is not representative of what most people think of this show. Go to other NGs of other long-running shows and try to find a group that believes that the current season is better than the earlier seasons. You won't find any.
The whole "people wanting to return to comforting shows" thing is crap, they liked the J&R storyline.
It was different then, people were wondering whether the show could reproduce its hugely successful first season, besides, it was the first inter-character relationship we'd seen then.
Posting under a different name? Google didn't seem to throw up any results...
That's completely irrelevant to the subject, it depends entirely on the show! How can you say that this newsgroup is not representative of what most people think of the show? It's the biggest usenet group, and you'll find some of the biggest Friends fans here. The fact that the most popular episodes ever are from seasons 1-5 says something.
"Owen Shiers" wrote in message news:qpA39.20915$[email]...
they
Oh, so people still like the show?
You said the ratings jumped mid-season. You're wrong.
The news reports reported a jump in the ratings immediately into the season when Friends finally beat Survivor. Journalists thought that the reason for this was, besides Rachel's pregnancy storyline and the mysterious father, due to 9/11 bringing people back to shows that comforted then and a distaste for "reality" tv.
People don't watch shows to see whether it will repeat the success of the previous season(s). If they like the show, they will continue to watch. If they don't, they won't.
People were interested in storylines, just as they are with the current ones. Simple as that.
Then give me an NG of a long-running show where the posters believe the current season is better than the earlier ones. ONE.
Because there are 20 million Americans who watch the show, and maybe 1% of them post on this NG?
You obviously haven't been to the Buffy NG. Try and read a day's worth of messages.
Hmmm....
It doesn't say that seasons 6-8 have completely and utterly sucked. As I already stated, season four was its peak. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy the past few seasons. I still think it's a terrific show.
I said "I believe" the ratings jumped mid-season, I thought that was around 814, when Joey tells Rachel. I really do not believe it was 9/11, I wouldn't feel like watching a comedy at the point in time. Whatever brought them back, it wore off quickly after J&R went quiet, you have to agree with me on that one.
I know what you mean, and that's the whole point of the cliffghanger at the end of the season. People have been wondering whether R&R are getting together all season. I suppose the important thing is that there's a balance between storylines that are constrcutive and interesing, and the comedy element of the show.
What about the characters? I'd watch an early episode simply for Chandler's witt.
Geez....
Sorry, I searched for Mahn, not Manhn. Is that you surname?
I'm not talking about long running shows in general, I'm talking about Friends. Every show is different, some get worse with age, some get better, non stay exactly the same.
I know they're voting with their TV's by tuning in, but this is what I'm trying to say, they did so because of J&R.After J&R went quiet, so did the ratings.
Friends newsgroup.
I think you're right in that four was a peak season, I seemed to notice a fall after five.
Having posted that, I noticed that 804 was third, but I put that due to it being fresh in people's minds.
I'm not going to disagree with you, it's just that some seem to have taken this the wrong way. Friends is still a good show, but I don't think it's as good as it was. Whether Will & Grace is better is a matter of opinion.
/ I am really tired and bored of the comedy shows which do the pregnancy thing because the jokes are all so similar. But for some reason i found Rachael's pregnancy to be really funny. I think maybe because on one level she is an anti-mother type who still seems to be a child herself and on another level she is very motherly or big sisterly in the way she loves other people.
SweetVenom Bob
***To those on Newsgroups***
Please do not email me, unless it is necessary you be private and your letter is positive in tone.
As I recall, I saw the teaser to that episode and I laughed my head off as well. I didn't watch the whole thing, but the teaser was excellent. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html
Well I don't know what to say to that, but the episodes I've seen are very early ones..perhaps the latest W&G seasons havn't been as good, which would explain why some people disagree with me so strongly.
European readers beware of S8 plot spoilers further down this post.
In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:
Okay.
They do.
I'm talking about the early ones - I have seen much later seasons, but only now am I catching up from the start, as shown on Channel 4. Last week's episode made me laugh. Once. Not where Radio Times told me to.
Not all of them though...the fact that DOOL exists is proof of that. Some watch Friends because of R&R, or J&R, not because it's funny. Oh heck, I don't know, I suppose it's a bit of everything.
I'll ask you this, do later reruns make you laugh? I suppose I haven't seen enough of W&G to judge properly.
Not really - while the "Friends" rerun shown just previously does. But Grace is very easy on the eye, so I don't mind letting the tape run on to record the show, just as I'd watch "The X-Files" for Scully...
I know what you mean, I suppose I don't mind re-runs, because you always notice something new. As for the X-Files, I can't stand it, if you go to the toilet and come back, so much has happened that you lose the entire plot of the series!
Ahh, they're just trying to make you jealous. I suppose the best looking people are in film and television, so there are bound to be some lookers around.
I really need to see more before I can make a proper judgement, which isn't likely to happen as I don't really watch much TV, and my S4C reception is terrible!! Perhaps when I have the money, I'll buy the DVD's, but by then ATF will be long forgotten...
On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -
Shame! :)
What's 'scorch'?
BTW, have you noticed how the shows target audience seems to have changed? Originally it seemed to be aimed mainly at pre-teen girls, but recently (shock, horror) the show has actually been mentioning sex! :)
Maybe they finally realised the ratings-drawing power of the attractive females on the show. :)
It's the title of the music magazine where Sabrina works in Season 7, after her aunts move back to the Other Realm, leaving their house for her to share with Roxie & Morgan. Much hilarity ensues.
She's getting older.
Absolutely, I just wish Paramount would try it in an early evening slot.
On Sun, 15 Sep 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -
You mean the 2002/3 US season?
Not quickly enough though - in six seasons Sabrina age has gone from 16 to just 19. I know witches age very slowly, but their age is still measured the same way mortals is - rotations round the sun, so she should be 21!
Would make a nice chance - half of their shows are ready to draw their old-age pension : Cosby Show, Happy Days, Mash, Cheers, Taxi...
On Tue, 17 Sep 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -
I don't think it will.
Apart from anything else, as long as she continues playing Sabrina, she'll be restricted by her contract into playing only 'wholesome' roles in other movies.
YNK though, if S7 is the last, maybe she'll start getting her kit off in some movies from next year! :)