It's Time to Call it Quits

i am not what you guys would consider a regular here like claire abraham(who from what i have read of her posts is the most insightful and respectable member of this group) or james squire(who is one of the few on this group whose opinions are always about as objective as they can possibly be). i have actually been lurking here for 2 years now but just started to post recently because there were a few things about the show that i really felt strongly about and wanted to discuss with people. what i have to say now has to do with the finale and the current status of the show.

s p o i l e r

s p a c e

all i can say is that i have completely lost what little respect i had left for this show. for me, it is official, season 6 has been the worst season in the entire run of the series and with the events that take place in the finale, it does not look like things are going to change.

i cannot help but think about the irony of the c&m story. it is the story that re-energized the show last season, but it is also the story that has caused it to become the total suckfest we have now. of course there is no doubt in my mind that the so-called c&m enthusiasts are wetting themselves with happiness. you guys would be completely content with this show becoming completely about THEM and their walk towards marriage. but the rest of the world does not want to see this. we like ross, we like rachel, we like joey, and we like phoebe and we want to see important, meaningful moments in THEIR lives. but these jack asses that are the shows writers seem to be under this delusion that the only important people in this show are chandler and monica and these are the only two we should really care about. i sincerely apologize to any c&m enthusiasts out there who are reading this. i am sure this is really upsetting you. but it is the truth. despite what you guys may think, the so-called c&m enthusiasts and r&r enthusiasts make up a very small percentage of the shows viewers. I feel confident in saying that probably 80 % of the shows viewers are average viewers who enjoy all the characters and want to see good, significant, and meaningful things happen to all of them. most of us have no interest in watching this show if it is going to turn into "mad about you" because this is not what this show was suppose to be about. most of us have no interest in seeing the other 4 characters become supporting characters. most of us have no interest in watching the "chandler and monica show" which is exactly what it has turned into and what it will be if there turns out to be another season.

i really have no enthusiasm of watching this show anymore. i used to really enjoy it. i am actually surprised that i have hung on this long. most of the people i know personally who used to watch this show stopped watching a long time ago. and they all give the same reason. that "it has changed and is no longer about the six of them, it is mostly about monica and chandler." these are the exact words of one of my friends who has watched the show since the beginning.

i know i have said an earful. i apologize if my comments are harsh and rash. but it is how i feel. there is no bs, it is straight and to the point and i am calling it how i see it. this used to be a really great show. it is a shame what has happened to it. well, there it is. that is my take on everything. i'll be sticking around for a little while to respond to any agreements, disagreements, flames, threats, or mailbombs that this thread receives. but after that i am out of here and am kissing this show goodbye. I will miss reading alot of your posts. especially those from claire abraham, james squire, tina, chris, william pora, moron cow, adriana, j robinson, activa, tow shaz, and peachlilli. i am sure that there are others but those are the only ones that come to mind at this time. so, let her rip and let me have it.

Gulp. Lasko, you have articulated something I've been wanting to say for several weeks, but lack the courage to say.

but these jack asses that are the shows writers seem to be

I don't think that's necessarily been entirely the case. Ross had a few plotlines this year. Rachel shared two with him, and Phoebe and Joey... have had nothing... um...

despite what you guys may think, the so-called c&m

This is true. Larissa, who has inside information, can verify it.

most of us

It's getting there. The finale was especially bad about this.

We don't know that. People accused season two of being the Ross and Rachel show, and they responded by breaking up Ross and Rachel.

Remember that 13% ratings decline I mentioned?

I think you've been very tactful, you've chosen your words well, and you've spoken as honestly as you can.

well, there

Others may indeed criticize you for saying this. You did a good job of making some very valid points, and I want you to feel like it did not alienate everybody.

Take care. Will you come back if there are signs of more ensemble work?

it's great is the show especially since mon + chan got together Claire Abraham wrote in message news:[email]...

does any1 like rach + ross Claire Abraham wrote in message news:[email]...

Claire Abraham wrote:

sometimes you just have to get it out there. who cares what other people think. as long as you have good, valid reasons for feeling the way you do.

come on claire, what did the other 4 do besides run around acting like a bunch of immature quacks? what meaning and significance did we see in THEIR lives this season? my point was NOT that the storylines were not balanced among the characters(althought I could probably make a strong case for that too), my point was that the only two characters who seemed like they had any real meaning and significance going on in their lives were chandler and monica. this is why i believe that the writers have put c&m forward as the ones that, according to THEM, we are SUPPOSE to care about the most. the rest of them are just supporting characters that we're really not suppose to care THAT much about.

it doesn't need to be verified to convince me. i could set up a poll booth on any street corner in this country and ask the question: "if you watch

friends, why do you watch it and what do you like about it?" and i bet a majority of the answers would be that it's generally entertaining and it is such a great ensemble. the key word there is ensemble. i bet in the majority of cases there would be no mention at all of c&m or r&r.

based on what i have seen on this show for the past two seasons, i'd say c&m have about as much of a chance of breaking up as r&r have of getting back together. think about it, you have monica's apartment at the CENTER of the show. you have chandler and monica who are engaged AND living together in monica's apartment. somebody else had mentioned this same thing last week but i don't remember who. i mean, a blind man could see that everything in this show is going to be revolving around this relationship next season if there is one. c&m have become the sun in the friends solar system, but i am so much more interested in what's going on with all the other planets. i know, very corny analogy but an appropriate one at the same time.

yes. and i would venture a guess that alot of that has to do with the writers trying to make c&m more important than the rest of them.

thanks claire.

i don't know. it it did i probably would. but i have to be honest, based on what i see is likely to happen next season if there is one, the signs will be very few and far between.

Claire Abraham wrote in message news:[email]...

Back in early season 4 I thought it would be cool of C&M got together. I think the problem was that Friends went into something of a downturn in Season 4 that Phoebe's pregnancy was able to pull them out of. Then C&M got together, and it seemed to show could do no wrong. I think the writers got a little too dependent on C&M's popularity as a couple, which (for one reason or another) never got backlash as R&R did in season 2.

Phoebe and Joey really need something. Joey working for Gunther was funny, but I'm hoping Mac & CHEESE isn't a rehash of the Drake Ramoray saga. Phoebe needs a good long-term story she can sink her teeth into. My idea: she gets Phoebe Sr., Frank Sr. and Ursula to meet for the first time after 31 years.

Like I said, there's a kind of dependency. I don't think breaking them up will fix this, and spending a whole season preparing for a May 2001 finale wedding with only make things worse. I say give just as strong stories to the other characters. One way to fix things might be an episode or two like TOW No-one's Ready. Everyone in one setting over 22 minutes interacting over a bunch of things happening at the same time, and *interacting* while doing it.

I think Bruce Willis guest starring on three episodes will fix that.

I agree.

Bobby C.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, ROBERT COAKLEY doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Where have *you* been?!

As a favor, could you possibly have this discussion without spoilers for the finale? I would really like to participate..but I cant read on until the spoilers for the finale are gone. Thanks, ~Act

ohh yes, because we're all a bunch of 2 year olds that haven't been toilet trained yet!

I'm offended at this generalisation! Seriously. Just because someone has a favourite couple, doesn't mean they couldn't care less what happens to the rest of the characters. I honestly doubt that a tv show that ONLY involved Chandler and Monica would even work. The appeal of this show, to me at least, is the dynamic between the SIX characters, not just the two that I like the most.

One thing I do agree with you on is that the writers are not achieving an equal balance for all the characters. I do NOT want my favourite characters to have a great storyline that takes over the show, and is at the expense of the other characters. I DO want this show to remain about ALL the Friends, not become "Chandler & Monica, and some secondary people that we get a glimpse of from time to time".

Shaz "Turkey's burnt, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined." http://zap.to/ERweb (ER Multimedia) http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/ERcreative/FAQ http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/GellerBing http://members.xoom.com/FriendsQuote

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, TOW Shaz doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Sorry, but I think it's safe to say that's already happened. Ever since 606, this show has been "Chandler & Monica and Friends", not "Friends" - and it's not the show most regular fans love.

TOW Shaz wrote:

if that is the meaning you took from what i said, then you are probably right.

why? because it is true? you can come on this group and say anything you want to make it look otherwise, but i think deep down most c&m enthusiasts are secretly loving it.

and that is why this show has not worked THIS season. that is why it is likely not to work next season.

well we agree on something. this is what i have said all along. but this dynamic has been missing for a long time now.

that is the problem. you are speaking about this as if it is yet to happen. it already has.

see above.

*cough*

and WHere did this come out of? Your....

Umm.. there have been some successful balancing acts between Chandler and Monica and the others. I think if the orginal creators come back than they can make this happen more often. Dont be so cynical.

I have seen some dynamic this season.

Not in EVERY episode, and I truly believe that the orginal creators can do better with the balancing.

~Act

Activia wrote:

go ahead say it. finnish your sentence. i'm waiting for it.

like i said in my first post, i have been lurking here for quite awhile and have gotten to know alot of you guys by reading your posts. activa, any discussion with YOU on this matter would be such a waste of both of our times because you will, for obvious reasons, TRY to defend ANY non-positive thing said about c&m REGARDLESS of whether or not it is a reasonable and valid point. for you, these discussions tend to be more of defending your favorite couple rather than a meaningful, thoughtful debate.

of course you have.

gee, nice to see you've managed to turn this into a flame war, rather than the thoughtful intelligent discussion you so obviously hoped to have. Geesh!

Shaz "Turkey's burnt, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined." http://zap.to/ERweb (ER Multimedia) http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/ERcreative/FAQ http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/GellerBing http://members.xoom.com/FriendsQuote

TOW Shaz wrote:

look if activa decides to take that as an insult than i sincerely apologize to her. i just did not want to engage in a debate that i KNOW was going to go around in circles forever.

and the only one who seems to be throwing flames at this point is you shaz. we CAN have a thoughtful and intelligent discussion. you have to WANT to have one though. it really doesn't seem like you do. it just seems like you are really frustrated because what i had to say, as harsh and rash as it was, had alot of truth to it.

No its implied and I'm not like that.

WHat??

I have some examples ready if you want them. But if you dont want to hear what I have to say about this, then so be it. ~Act

After taking a few deep breaths...

I try hard not to let this happen but I often get defensive and am working on it! So, its actually helpful for me to try try again. I think I am ready on this one.

I know that was sarcastic..wasnt it?

Ok..putting all those kinds of comments behind. I am going to give what I personally think of this season. What I like and what I think needs to be changed.

1. I think that this season I dont tend to feel as though they are as close to each other as a group. Sometimes it seems more like they are yelling at each other than helping each other.

There May be Some Spoilers, none from the US

S P O I L E R

S P A C E

Some of examples of them yelling or not supporting: 1. The joke about Ross's 3 failed Marriages. Instead of trying to help him through this they redicule him time and time again. 2. Monica yelling at Chandler in TOW Chandler can't cry 3. Ross and Rachel conintually yelling at each other instead of talking nicely and calmy about their relationship in TOW Ross hugs Rachel 4. TOW Joey's fridge, nooone seemed to want to help Joey financially all of the sudden.

Sometimes although they were supportive: 1. TOW Joey Loses his insurance, Chandler was very supportive of Joey and tried to give him money without him knowing, also he helped the kid cry so that way poor Joey could be done with the commercial and see a doc. 2. TOW the Unagi, Chandler helps Joey with getting an audition. 3. Monica helped Ross with his teeth so they wouldnt look so bright in TOW Ross's Teeth.

Second, some of the episodes have been Chandler and Monica dominated with an inacurrate balance and the plot lines were poor. But overall I really dont think that they have dominated the season and that this has become C&M and friends. I think that they should have some storylines together, yes maybe a little much this season, but not overwhelminly.

1. in TOW Rachel's sister, the plot line for C&M was poor.
       This one is harder for specific episodes. But I am
       sure some of you can think of them better than me.

Although some of them did have a good balance.

1. TOW the Mac & C.H.E.E.S.E although not much more material the material that was there was good. We did have some C&M interaction but it didnt dominate the episode.

• TOW the Unagi

• TOW Joey Loses his insurance.

Third, some of the character developments have been poor. I can see why some are not happy about C&M because it seems they are the only ones growing up this season. I agree. I wish they would let the other characters grow too. We have seen Chandler not so afraid of commitment and finally ready for one. Monica..well.. She isnt so obbessive and "neatfreakis" like in TOW Pheobe runs. But Monica has gotten too loud and screechy this season. Ross has flunctuated between episodes, sometimes we see him normalish like TOW Chandler can't cry, then being a little "mad, crazy" like TOW the Unagi. Then Phoebe, very few developments, I cant think of..ONE. Rachel has matured a little bit this season with being more relaxed and beginning to understand Pheobe like TOW Pheobe runs. Joey has shown that his friends mean more than a girlfriend TOW the Apocathery table, but he's done this before. The only ones that seem to be moving on to a new level in their life are C&M. Dont you think its time for the others. They are all over 30 now. Why arent we seeing them come into a long lasting relationship or realizing that Hey we're over 30 now where are we going with our lives?

Finally, the constant R&R situation. They act like they are going to get together than rip them apart.

Some storylines that seemed utterly pointless and stupid, Janine, Janine, Janine *except on her exit*, The whole annulment thing with R&R was taken over the top. Joey's proshe *was funny but pointless*

Some good things about this season:

Many episodes had me ROTFLMAO. If you look at each seperatly and don't analize them, then it's good TV watchin. I have enjoyed many of the storylines. Some of my fav episodes in this season are TOW Chandler can't cry and TOW the Joke.

They have done some good things this season, but Character development was unbalanced, some storylines seemed pointless, Character Development flunctuated, and they should act more like friends instead of throwing so many rude comments and not helping each other as much!

"where was all the hugging this season?"

But hey the season isn't over yet............. and I have high hopes for the possible next season.

~Act

Ok, let me fix it then: <beginsarcasm>ohh yes, because we're all a bunch of 2 year olds that haven't been toilet trained yet!</endsarcasm>

I'm sorry, but I really don't think it's fair of you to include ALL C&M fans in your statements, especially when you have not discussed any of this with them directly.

Well excuse me for only being up to episode 6.10 here in Australia.

Shaz (pissed at being attacked by all the whining moaning NON C&M fans. Seriously, if you don't like it, don't watch it!)

TOW Shaz wrote:

I don't want to get too involved in this so I'll just point out that 13% of last years audience are taking your advice and not watching it.

Jay-

and more power to them. At least they're sensible enough to *do* something about their lack of interest in the show, rather than sitting back and whining.

Shaz "Turkey's burnt, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined." http://zap.to/ERweb (ER Multimedia) http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/ERcreative/FAQ http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/GellerBing http://members.xoom.com/FriendsQuote

TOW Shaz wrote:

The people who whine about it are more likely to care about it. It's tough to watch a show you care about go downhill and this is a forum for some of those people to vent their frustrations. Any fan of the show should be bothered by the fact that they are slipping in viewers. If 13% less people are watching the show, I would hate to imagine how many are still watching, but not enjoying it as much. That's a very telling sign and should be taken very seriously. If someone like D.J has always hated the show and comes here and rips on it I would not pay any attention, but he sounds like someone who really *wants* to be interested in the show again, but is frustrated by the direction of it. I feel much the same way and I wish I didn't. It's comments by people like D.J and others on here that are troubling to me because they come from people who care about the show and the criticisms should be looked at seriously. The show is losing some fans who really want to enjoy it and that, to me, is sad.

Jay- I guess I'm involved now

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, J. Robinson doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Maths on estimates of ratings coming up, likely inaccurate but then again I'm not the best person ever at maths...

If you consider that the average viewership per episode is usually something around 25 million in the US, 13% is 3.25 million. 3.25 million viewers per episode have already gone. And, if we take DJ's estimate that 80% couldn't care less about The Couples (but we will assume they watch equally for ALL characters for the purposes of my bad maths) there is a potential 17.4 million who are not completely happy with the show at the moment and could quit watching at any time if these writers don't play their cards right. That is a hell of a chunk, and the producers NEED to be concerned about it. Right now, there are, as a rough estimate, approximately about 2.175 million - about 10% - of the remaining viewership who are likely to be completely happy with this finale if it does indeed turn out to be the last episode. Everyone else is likely to be either bitterly disappointed or just left with the impression that Friends has turned into Chandler & Monica And Friends, and neither of the latter two groups are going to be too interested in any future offerings BKC have if this finale leaves any kind of bitter taste in their mouths, like I suspect it will do. I know these writers have to keep people interested, but they're doing the exact opposite - they're alienating all except a minority of the audience, which is a BAD THING to do in TV or movies.

I shall get back to my happy place now...

Tina wrote:

spoiler space for the season finale........

What baffled me about the finale spoiler was that they chose to wrap up the C&M angle in that one episode and not with a cliffhanger. That tells me they are uncertain of the future of the show. But yet they left the other 4 characters with no sense of closure whatsoever. They were just sorta "there" and without a substantial storyline. In every season finale but the 1st(I think) there was a substantial subplot with at least one of the other characters. Leaving them without closure is an awefully big risk to take and it does alienate some of the audience. Given that they were uncertain, what I think would have been best would be this.

Leave the C&M part the way it is. Get R&R together with a "in the heat of the moment" type things. Get Joey a real acting job that gives a sense of being "the one." Do something with Phoebe that would make her seem to be on the road to success(I'm really not sure what, though). This way, there is at least a sense of closure for all the characters and even though it's not the best case scenario, it wouldn't be terrible. Then, if the show does continue they can start with a clean slate where the characters have a sense of being adults. Since Lisa(and probably others in the cast) has stated her desire to see the characters grow up, I think this would work well for a season or maybe two. It would give the show a fresh look that could be successful for long enough to go out on a high note. It would take more intelligent writing and probably woudn't cater as much to the younger viewers and those things could be problems. The way it is now, it seems like they're saying, "They're moving into adulthood....... but only some of them."

Ohhh how it's fun to 2nd guess.

I'm going back to my better place

Jay

TOW Shaz wrote:

i dont care whether it was sarcasm or not. you took it out of context.

well let me ask you something, do you honestly think c&m fans would admit this if i did?

well excuse me for making the assumption that you were up to date.

you do realize that "non c&m" fans probably means about 70 - 80 % of the viewers. are people complaining? yes. do they have a good reason to be complaining? yes. as far as your advice about not watching the show anymore, that is EXACTLY what i plan to do and that is probably why the ratings have taken a nose dive.

but does that 70-80% of Friends fans post on this newgroup? Noooooooooo. I'm not denying them a reason to complain, I'm just sick of hearing aobut it all the time. I'm glad to hear that you at least are not bothering to make the effort to watch the show any more if it gives you no joy.

Don't take away the joy of those who still do make the effort.

Shaz

Tough.

I'm glad to hear that you at least are not bothering to make the

Shaz, I take it you are a C&M fan, right? That is an incredibly easy thing to say when you are handed every single thing *you* want to see on a silver platter. How much "effort" does it take for you to get joy out of what you are seeing right now? You have gotten the romance you wanted, it has gone on for a very long time now, it has had absolutely *no* important conflicts of any kind, it has completely dominated the show, and now we see an indication that they have become the only show characters the writers care about anymore. Good for people who are obsessed with Chandler and Monica. Not too good for anybody else. If the writers had gone a different direction, it would be the C&M fans who were upset right now, and we saw signs earlier this week that the frantic complaining from the other side was already beginning to tune up at the very *idea* that there *might be* a stumbling block. Shaz, there are some people out there who really feel that they've been manipulated and promised things that ultimately were not delivered, and that has created some bitterness. There are other people out there who don't really care about either couple and think Chandler and Monica's domination has damaged the show. They have the right to say that. *As often as they like.* If people are watching something they love cease to be anything they can even enjoy, that's going to cause a strong reaction. If I were to be as cold and unkind to you as you have been to people whose opinions differed from yours, I would say "Well, if you don't like it, don't read the newsgroup." But I do not have the right to tell you to leave the newsgroup any more than you have the right to tell people that they can't articulate their dismay that Friends has turned into the Chandler and Monica show.

Yeah, and if you bothered to look back at those messages, you would have noticed that I was one of the people actual embracing the possible conflict.

I'm LOOKING FORWARD to seeing that particular character (I'm avoiding spoilers here).

ohh, you may say you don't have the right to tell me that, but it's obvious you'd like to see that happen. Maybe I should just return to lurkdom, and ignore any of the threads on this newsgroup that any of the ATF clique frequent.

I just LOVE the fact that everyone else is allowed to express their opinion, and YOU have no problem with that, AS LONG AS YOU AGREE WITH THEM. God forbid anyone comes along here and tries to stand up for what they believe in, when it goes against what a good majority of the regulars here believe.

There's been many a time when I've read a message from you, a post-episode review of sorts, and have disagreed, or been unhappy with what you expressed. I never shot you down for expressing those very opinions.

If that is your impression of what I meant, I need to rephrase it. No, Shaz, I don't want you to leave. I said what I said *only* because it mirrors the comment "If you don't like it, don't watch it." The pat response would be "if you don't like reading posts where people who are tired of Chandler and Monica complain, then don't read this newsgroup, because they will continue." In all the time I've been on ATF, I've only really wanted one person to leave, and he was a very offensive off-topic poster. I did not mean to tell you to go away, and I am sorry if I gave you that impression. This was not meant to be a personal conflict.

But Shaz, that's what we are arguing about right now. You said you didn't want anybody to complain about Chandler and Monica anymore. Your comment indicated that you don't want to hear that opinion, and you think anybody who doesn't like the direction the show has taken had better just give up and go away.

But you just shot down people who are tired of Chandler and Monica for expressing that opinion. I'm confused as to what your thrust is here; you seem to want to express your opinion without debate, but you don't want to hear a point of view that has begun to irritate you.

It also sounds like you don't think I should comment on anybody else's posts unless I agree with them. If you have anything else personal to say to me, it may be best if we take this to email. I do not want to get involved in a personal flamewar.

whatever. I give up. The thread subject has now just become very appropriate. It's time for ME to call it quite. I'll stick to my fun and my quotes, and never have an opinion again.

Shaz "Turkey's burnt, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined." http://zap.to/ERweb (ER Multimedia) http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/ERcreative/FAQ http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/GellerBing http://members.xoom.com/FriendsQuote

TOW Shaz wrote:

Quite what?

(Just a harmless joke to ease the tension)

Every person who expresses an opinion in a newsgroup is going to be called upon to defend it. I'm still a little confused; *if* I understand what you are saying, you are very angry and feel like I am an overbearing person who has stifled your opinion - which is that people who are unhappy with the show shouldn't express that opinion. Do I misunderstand you? I am sorry if I came across as overbearing; at the moment I am doing my best to express my views in a way that will satisfy you. I do not wish for you to stop loving Chandler and Monica, I don't expect you to love every comment against them that comes up, and I sure as hell don't want you to feel like I've created an environment where you are not welcome to talk. It really concerns me that you feel that way. I don't want *anybody* to create an environment where *anybody* is unwelcome to talk politely.

TOW Shaz wrote:

so? this is completely irrelevant to the subject.

well i dont know what to tell you. what you just said gets me thinking about something you said to me in another message.

in another message you went into this whole shpeal about how you as a c&m enthusiast, did NOT want to see this become the chandler and monica show while the other 4 characters got neglected. you said this in response to me claiming that alot of c&m fans would be perfectly content with the show being that way. you also said that you were offended by this.

now that i think back on it, i think that maybe i was a little ballsy when i said that. but what you just said above makes me think that there is some truth to what i said. you just said

that you think people DO HAVE a reason to complain but you are just TIRED of hearing about it. now i take that to mean that you KNOW there is a problem with the show right now but just DO NOT CARE. and why would you not care? maybe because your favorite couple is together and happy?

look shaz, i am not trying to take away the joy from anybody. i can understand why you would take it that way IF you are someone that has a hard time accepting the harsh truth about something. i have not TRIED to spoil this show for ANYBODY. all i have done was present the truth and what people personally decide to do with that is not my problem.

Actually not to be difficult, but your statistic is irrelevant because there is no way to back it up with any statistics or facts, it's just your speculation. I just think that no matter what people do, someone will ALWAYS not like a storyline, whether it has to do with relationships or whatever. As a C&M fan I have accepted the fact that people will complain about them, and it doesn't bother me. But the typical fan probably isn't as passionate about couples as the people on the newsgroup are and could take or leave the couples. So I really don't think that 70% of Friends fans hates the idea of C&M so much that they would want them to break up.

====== "Life is never without love" -Sheryl Crow

You act like we only care about them and not the entire show.. Which is untrue.

Thankyou!

I honestly doubt that a tv show that ONLY involved Chandler

ditto.

not just the two that I like the most.

agreed.

I do NOT want my favourite characters to have a

Ditto

I DO want this show to remain about ALL the Friends, not become

~Act

TOW Shaz wrote in message news:[email]...

a

rest

Chandler

the

equal

have a

other

become

from

I don't want this either.. but when R+R were an item.. it was a MAJOR thing for many special episodes love is important.. and it can;t just be thrown away.. with an "oh by the way, we fell in love" but I still love the show.. and it's still really popular. so lets try to be more positive

I'm not quite sure I agree with you, but I'll say this much, I really don't
disagree with what you're saying about the show's appeal in the past
regarding group chemistry.
While I've found the pairing of Chandler and Monica to be refreshing, I must
truthfully admit, that I really don't see that this has been the dominating
plot line of the show this season.  Nor do I want it to be, as much as I
like it.  Let's face it, the name of the show is "Friends," not "Lovers."
    That being said, while Chandler and Monica have had a lot of scenes this
season (and I haven't read any finale spoilers so you folks may know
something that I don't in terms of how it's going to end), I still don't see
that as being the driving force behind this season which I also feel was
lackluster and below standard.  I think a lot of what we've seen that has
slowed down the show is the way so many characters have immatured, rather
than matured.
 For example, Ross.  Up until the last few episodes, we've seen very little
of the old Ross who was so enjoyable when the show first came on.  Instead
they turned him into a depressing geek.
   Joey. What on earth do they plan on doing with this guy?  He's at the age
now where his lack of career direction would make it very difficult for him
to pick up girls.  And his current job takes the show back full circle to
the beginning. (I'm not being specific because I don't want to spoil
anything for our British colleagues or others from other parts of the
world.)  Is this the best they can do with him?
   Phoebe.  Whatever happened to the Relaxitaxi?
And whatever happened to the Phoebe of the first season?  Yes, she was
strange, but able to hold her own in the group, making her realistic.  Last
night I saw TOW Underdog Gets Away.  Good illustration of how Phoebe used to
be. She wasn't stupid.  It just took her a while to realize that since they
were celebrating Thanksgiving at her place in December (because her
grandmother's boyfriend is lunar), that she was invited to Monica's.  And
when Joey came in, she could get in a good quip about how laughter was
infectious.
She was multi-dimensional, not one dimensional like too many of the
characters have become.
    Monica & Chandler.  I guess there is something to what you've said about
the pairing of these two.  Most  of their scenes this year have been with
each other or with the other doing something because of the other.  I really
wish they would give them material with other characters more often.
     Rachel.  This is the only character who really has seemed to grow since
first coming on. I'd be a lot more comfortable if she finally got her own
apartment.  But she's gone from Central Perk to Bloomingdale's (I think) and
now Ralph Lauren. While I still think her relationship with Ross is an
influence in her life (after all, this is television and they did spend
about a year together which will always be embedded in our memories), I
don't get the feeling that everything she does is because of "The Ross and
Rachel Phenomenon."
  Then there was the whole Elle MacPherson fiasco.  I have nothing against
her.  I think her acting was fine. There was just nothing of interest in
this storyline that lasted way too long. She was just there.
     I think the problem with the show that may be reason to call it quits
(which I also argued here a few weeks ago) is that the characters have
become caricatures. And my biggest problem is that too few have them evolved
into their 30s.  I think both of these can be solved with good writing
(which the fantasy episode demonstrated.)
So allow me to infer from Claire Abraham's other post about the demise of
"Veronica's Closet" that this should mean that Bright, Kaufmann and Crane
will have more time to focus on this show and could bring back some more of
the magic that we used to see. They above all others clearly understand this
show.  If that's what's going to happen, then I welcome a season seven.  If
not, I don't want the show to come back.

gem10 wrote in message news:...

think ross + rach should get back together every1 should b happy

course

the

and

D.J. Lasko wrote:

It's hard for me to rank the seasons anymore, but you probably have a good point here. For me, what I don't like about the 6th season is that it is the 6th season - in a progression where things have just gotten worse and worse. This constant cat & mouse game with Ross & Rachel has made me resort to that old proverb: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me." I have been singularly unimpressed with the so-called bones they have thrown to us Ross & Rachel fans this season. None of them have gotten my hopes up one iota, and even if there is some as yet unfilmed cliffhanger involving them, I will still go by the motto of the State I live in (Missouri): "Show me". In other words, I'll believe it when I see it.

If some of the comments from people like Lisa Kudrow that have been quoted are authentic and to be taken seriously, perhaps along with the decline in ratings they will finally get the message and allow these characters to grow up. Of course, I have no idea what Lisa Kudrow (or any of the other cast members, for that matter) really means by "growing up", so that's kind of risky. In any event, I don't blame you for being cynical.

I haven't had a chance to assess this myself. I'm used to arguing that "Friends" has not turned into the "Ross and Rachel" show - ever - and I'm tempted to think that the same is true with Monica and Chandler, but I haven't done a thorough analysis. It is certainly the more likely transgression of the two, since we know the writers hate writing Ross & Rachel feel-good stuff. Apparently they don't have nearly the same aversion to Chandler and Monica feel good stuff.

I would say this, however. No one has ever gotten rich predicting the motivations of others, especially in a newsgroup. You may be right about the C&M fans hereabouts, but if you are wrong (and that is possible too) you certainly have not gotten off on the right foot with them with comments about "wetting themselves" and such.

I think you are right about the 80%, and when you say you don't want this show to turn into "Mad About You", I assume you mean such that Ross, Rachel, Phoebe, and Joey becoming - as you go on to say - like Lisa, Fran, Mark, Selby, i.e. supporting characters who are not main characters. There are other ways in which I very much would like to see this show turn into something like "Mad About You", but not if it means being about just one main couple.

Again, I'm not so sure, but I can see where it might be headed in this direction. Certainly, Monica and Chandler are what everyone is talking about, just like with Ross and Rachel in season 2. And since the writers obviously like Chandler and Monica, there is every reason to think that they won't be able to keep themselves from turning it into the Chandler and Monica show. To be sure, they will introduce deep conflict, but I'll bet they can do it without breaking them up completely.

Ross and Rachel: The Romeo and Juliet of the 21st century. They will get together over their masters' dead bodies. Oh, what could have been...

James Squire wrote:

when is said, "i am sure c&m fans are wetting themselves", all i meant by that was that i was sure that they were all EXTREMELY HAPPY about the events that take place in the finale. i dont quite get how that is considered offensive.

that is exactly what i meant. i wasn't in any way knocking "mad about you". the situation that existed in "mad about you" WORKED for THAT show. it would NOT work for THIS show.

well, obviously it was, which is why I returned the comment that I did. Maybe you could try some lessons in tact.

Shaz "Turkey's burnt, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined, potatoes are ruined." http://zap.to/ERweb (ER Multimedia) http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/ERcreative/FAQ http://members.xoom.com/shaz915/GellerBing http://members.xoom.com/FriendsQuote

TOW Shaz wrote:

o.k then, why dont you explain to me what was so offensive about it? seriously.

oooooooh really? ok shaz, i will let that one slide because i actually have interest in your opinions of the subject. again, your opinions about the SUBJECT. i have no interest in, and tolerance of, your personal attacks and insults on ME. if you continue to push me on this then you better be ready because if you think you are going to be insulting and ignorant towards me just because you do not agree with my opinions and get away with it, boy do you have another thing coming.

Tell you what, Lasko, I'll do it, since you and I are on pretty good terms and right now I am very sad at the turn in conversation tone. Suggesting that the C&M fans are "wetting themselves" does give the connotation that they are unusually immature, childish, or a little brainless. You may not have intended it to come out that way, but as Jim Squire pointed out, it does have a flavor to it that suggests their joy is something stupid, unworthy, or bad. The phrase "beside themselves" might have been a little more neutral.

"D.J. Lasko" wrote:

D.J., I read your initial post and thought that most of your points were reasonable and valid. I think what *some* might have a problem with is the tone you are using. Some people get turned off by comments that are strongly assertive and aggressive regardless of whether or not the comments are valid or reasonable. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being assertive and aggressive, just that some people might be more willing to listen if you were a *little* less assertive and aggressive when

posting your thoughts.

Chris

Chris wrote:

chris, i appreciate the advice and your concern for my well-being on this board is noted. but i am not the kind of person who is going to sugar-coat his opinions and beliefs for the sole reason of making them more acceptable to SOME people. if i think the show is really starting to suck and have good solid reasons to think that way, that is exactly what i am going to say.

i am not purposely here to make enemies, i am not a troll, i am not an anti-friends freak, i dont have one of those anti-friends websites, i HAVE been a dedicated loyal fan since the beginning. and as a dedicated and loyal fan who cares about the quality of the show, i am just here to present what i feel is the truth about the current status of this show and where it is heading if it continues. THAT is what i think is causing some people to have problems with what i say. it is not so much that they disagree with me, it is not so much that they find what i say to be offensive, its just that they dont want to or have a hard time accepting the truth and they hate me for putting it out there.

again chris i appreciate the advice, but i am not trying to make any friends and i am not trying to make any enemies. i am not trying to please anyone and i am not trying to upset anyone. i am just presenting what i feel is the truth about the current status of this show and everyone can make of it what they will.

<i am just here to present what i feel <is the truth about the current <status of this show and where it <is heading if it continues. THAT is <what i think is causing some people <to have problems with what i say. <it is not so much that they disagree with me, it is <not so much that theyfind what i say to be <offensive, its just that they dont want to or have a <hard time accepting the truth and they hate me for <putting it out there.

Doubtful. Lately, the majority of the people who post here have been saying the shows sucks. What you said about it was nothing especially new or shocking.

I think the reason your post offended Shaz was not because it expressed anger and disappointment about the direction the show is taking, but because you came off sounding like you blame the C&M fans for it.

Or, if you don't outright blame them, you're at least really pissed at them and scornful of them for having the gall and/or poor taste to be happy about the current state of the show.

You've got a right to say whatever you like here, of course. But you'll likely be more successful at starting an intelligent discussion of the show�as opposed to a flamewar�if you can stick to complaining about the content of the show and about the writers and producers who create it, rather than taking out your disgruntlement on other fans, who, though they may be pleased with the show, are in no way responsible for it.

Sprong77 wrote:

whoa whoa whoa! i want you to dig up ANY of my messages and show me where i am blaming the c&m FANS for the current state of the show.

see above.

i honestly have to say that i am COMPLETELY stunned by what i just read. if THAT is what you got from my posts than i REALLY suggest you go and read every single one of them again.

Sprong has a point, Lasko. On second, and much more careful rereading of your original post, here is what I saw:

of course

This is *some* truth to this statement with certain individuals, but most of the people who argued with you on this thread do indeed have a more balanced view of the show.

Here I see a generalization by which you imply that

1. *all* C&M fans are completely satisfied with the finale 2. *none* of them mind that the other characters are ignored 3. *all* C&M fans think that the majority of other people feel the same way they do.

I think that's where all the anger came from. This thread is really upsetting me because Shaz just let me have it with some pretty virulent personal criticism and then stormed out because supposedly I wouldn't allow her to have an opinion. (Which seems to have been that disgruntled viewers should just shut up and not state *their* opinion. Huh?) Anyway, I hope this helps. Helena said she resented the "Mondlerian" and "Roschelite" labels. For me, they are just shorthand for noting which couple an individual prefers - but the key word *is* individual. If labels become generalizations as to what people are interested in, then we do indeed have a problem. There are probably a number of C&M followers out there who agree that the finale spoilers seem kind of one-sided for the last episode of the show's run. And, on actually viewing, you know, some of us might actually enjoy ourselves.

I

Does anybody see some irony in this?

claire abraham wrote:

o.k. claire, you just basically re-iterated what i said in a previous message. i went on to say that maybe i WAS jumping the gun a little with that generalization that i made and that it was a little unfair for me to make that assumption but that i STILL thought there was SOME truth to it and demonstrated why. claire, you have confused me a little though. a few days ago you you responded to the same passage of mine that you quoted above with:

which kind of makes your opinion about the matter a little fuzzy to me. in any case, every word of mine that was quoted above does NOT, and i repeat, does NOT in anyway blame or even imply that i am blaming c&m fans for the current state of the show which is what sprong77 explicitly said. it doesn't even come close! i want that to be cleared up right now. i respect sprong77's opinions but in this case, his/her opinions were dead wrong.

the gist of that quote above just says that c&m and r&r fans are a very small minority of people within the overall viewing audience. i am not sure how you are drawing those conclusions that you list JUST from what you have quoted. but lets just assume that i WAS implying all those things. Do any of those things imply that i BLAME the c&m fans for the current status of the show? that is the main issue at hand here in THIS post.

i hope you are not blaming me for this claire. i did start this thread but like i said in another message, i did not start it to purposely cause chaos. i started it because it was about time that what i felt was the truth about the current status of the show and where it was headed if it continued needed to be put out there. and how people responded to the truth was not my problem. sometimes people are not happy with, or have a hard time accepting the truth so in turn they start tearing layers and layers off the surface hoping to find SOMETHING that they THINK might discredit the truth(i.e. taking anything that i said to imply that i blame c&m fans for the state of the show in the hopes of making my statements a little less credible) and when they are unsuccessful, they get frustrated because the truth has still remained the truth.

my respect for you claire has increased exponentialy. as if it wasnt already high enough. everything you said was crystal clear. if that is the meaning that some people honestly took from my posts, then i can understand what all the fuss is about. but honestly, they are all nothing but misconceptions.

like what? that i mentioned shaz? i have no ill-will towards shaz and when i leave i WILL miss reading her posts. this is a topic that me and her just did not see eye-to-eye on and she took it a little too personal in which i responded appropriately when things got a little out of hand. or is this not what you are referring to when you say "irony"?

Lasko wrote:

to purposely cause chaos. >i started it because it was about time that what i

there.

A hell of a lot of people in this newsgroup have complained about how bad the show's been lately and how much this season has been dominated by C&M. That's not to say that you aren't free to add your opinion. I'm just not sure why you think you expressed a truth that had never been put out there before.

start

that i

Um, I take it you are referring to me here, since I'm the one who suggested that you blame the CM fans for the state of the show. I'd just like to point out that I happen to agree with you about the show: it IS becoming a suckfest and we HAVE seen way too much of the poorly-written CM relationship this season. So, sorry, but no, I did not try to undermine your credibility because I'm in denial of the "truth" you so boldly proclaimed here.

By the way, "the show is a suckfest and the CM relationship made that way" is an OPINION, not an objective truth. "The show is terrific this season and the CM relationship is the best thing that ever happened to it" is also an opinion (not my opinion, but an opinion, nonetheless) and is equally as valid as your opinion.

Lasko wrote:

<< Sprong77 wrote:

the

anger

came

Okay, okay, I take it back. No, you never explicitly BLAMED the CM fans for the state of the show. Sorry abiout that one.

Nope. I don't take that one back. Regardless of how you intended to sound, your tone in the following passage was exactly as I described it above (i.e. scornful and pissy towards the CM fans) :

What you seemed to be saying up there is, "The show's become a suckfest. Anyone (namely, the CM fans) who's content with it right now is an idiot."

If that's what you meant to say, fine. But obviously that's the sort of sentiment that's going to draw flames.

If your true intention was to start an intelligent, flameless discussion of the show's problems, you'd have done better by simply stating what you dislike about the show and leaving it at that.

Instead, you dragged the CM people into it by presuming (perhaps falsely) to know how they feel about the show and then expressing your disapproval of their opinions.

<<i honestly have to say that i am COMPLETELY stunned by what i just read. >>

Look, Lasko, I'm hardly the only one who found your post a little offensive. If you're so stunned, then maybe you need to go back and reread your own post and see whether it really sounded the way you meant it to sound.

Shaz, you forgot to include the name of the person you were quoting.

TOW Shaz wrote:

I think the problem in this little exchange is that while "wetting themselves" does mean "peeing your pants", the latter is often used as a euphemism for getting all excited. Other euphemisms are: "having a cow". Euphemistically speaking, a couple of C&M fans have *already* "wet themselves" in this newsgroup at the news. Shaz, if you took this euphemism literally, please know it was not meant that way. If on the other hand you know full well that it is not meant literally, then your response shows that the euphemism was offensive: (a) merely because you disagree with it? (b) or else because deep down inside you know it is the truth?

On the one hand it is obviously not meant to be taken literally. On the other hand, it is a pejorative remark. There is obviously a deep difference of opinion over how much excitement there should be about C&M getting married.

Dr. Lasko is saying that C&M fans are getting excited about something that has already ruined or will ruin the show. I happen to think he raises a valid point that is certainly debatable. If you seriously disagree than debate the point.

Dr. Lasko, what you have asserted here may well be the truth, but people who begin a conversation by telling others what is definitely wrong with them don't end up doing very well. You might try to ease up on your assertions about the motivations of those who you are criticizing.

Shaz, *I* have tried to engage Activia, a C&M fan, in a couple of conversations about the couples in the show, and I must say Dr. Lasko's impressions are quite understandable. That does not mean I don't respect her opinion, or Helena's for that matter. But as one who has been known to be guilty himself of arguing from conclusion, I think I know it when I see it.

Please, Shaz, don't just withdraw from this conversation or this newsgroup or anything like that. I respect your opinion as well. If you will respect mine and Claire's and Dr. Lasko's and others who are similarly disposed at the moment, this community can continue to be a good thing no matter what happens on Friends.

James Squire wrote:

it is actually d.j. james, but if you want to refer to me as dr. lasko that is fine with me.

when i initially used that phrase, the thought never even crossed my mind that some might take it literally, in which case it would be a degrading remark. i intended it to mean EXACTLY the way you described it above and just sort of assumed people would know that.

i dont quite know that i was "telling others what is definitely wrong with them". unless i am misunderstanding what you mean by this. you will have to clarify.

when i think back to the other day when i made a comment about alot of c&m enthusiasts being secretly content with the show becoming completely about c&m, i started thinking that maybe i WAS jumping the gun a little. but then shaz posted a response to this subject today that i THINK may have inadvertently blew her cover about how she REALLY feels about the show becoming completely about c&m. which makes me think that maybe i wasnt so out of line after all with what i said.

D.J. Lasko wrote:

Eeeschk ;-) I knew I was close.

D.J., it is hard to read your initial post and not draw the conclusion that people are wrong to think that this show is going along just fine or however you put it (being content because their favorite couple is happy, or something like that). Perhaps, "telling others what is definitely wrong with them" was a bit sloppy on my part, but as you just stated today, you feel that people don't want to accept the truth.

There was a day in history, at least half a millenium ago, when such assertions, especially as conversation *starters*, were considered socially acceptable, and were not taken as personally offensive. That day is no more.

Now, I suppose that if you are not here to make friends, then at least you are being consistent. But I would think that the anger you have received should also have little or no effect on you, and yet that doesn't seem to be the case. Honestly, D.J., you give the impression that you are looking for ... if not a fight, then at least a vigorous argument. The problem is you have to kind of work your way up to such a thing in today's world, especially in this country (USA) because American society tends to be very touchy-feely about debating. When someone calls us on something, right or wrong, we tend to react emotionally as well as intellectually, all at once.

It is true that there is truth out there, and if someone knows it for certain, it is not that person's fault if others don't. Furthermore, when someone reacts defensively to the truth because they don't wish to accept it (not because they honestly disagree), that also is not the truth-teller's fault - not entirely, at least. The important question to ask in such cases is: Why is it so important to speak that truth NOW and in THIS way (that is direct, immediate, pulling no punches)?

Is it so important to rush right out there into the public square and blurt out the truth, rather than *starting* discussions slowly, taking time to listen to what others have to say and reasoning with them step by step?

Sometimes the answer to that question might be "Yes", but if it is, you need to be able to say why it is so important.

For all I know, I have been guilty of all this myself. I know what it is like to seek out arguments on stuff I feel solid on. And I'm not talking about baiting people for the purpose of belittling them, and I don't think that's what you are trying to do here either. But it is tempting to say something provocative and hope to get a reaction out of people. In doing so, you may end up having to get so provocative that pretty soon you *are* baiting people, or at least they can reasonably feel like you are.

I suspect maybe you are tiptoeing close to that line, D.J.

Please, everyone, the one thing that is not necessary is this "hurt victim" scene. We need to work a little harder to not provoke that reaction, and we need to all realize that just because your opinion is being challenged, even seriously, does *not* mean you need to fall on your sword and go away for the good of the group. No. For the good of the group, stay, in fact.

As a veteran of this newsgroup going on 5 and a half years now, the last thing I want to see is some kind of mass exodus. I mean that.

James Squire wrote:

james, i dont know what to say. the only thing i can tell you is that not once during the half-hour that i spent writing that initial post was i EVER thinking that anybody else was WRONG for liking the show the way it is. i presented a controversial reason for why i THINK some people might like the show the way it is but that in no way implies that they are WRONG for liking it. if they subjectively take it that way, i can't be held responsible for them getting all bent out of shape over nothing.

people cannot and should not be responsible for the conclusions that others subjectively draw from their opinions because those conclusions could objectively be dead wrong which has been the case on more than one occasion here. people ARE responsible for clearing up the confusion that caused the false conclusions which is what i am doing right now.

well in reality, i have only received anger from one particular person. every other correspondence that i have had seems to have been a very meaningful, thoughtful, and respectable discussion. it DOESNT have an effect on me. if someone disagrees with what i have to say that is fine. that happens in life. what DOES have an effect on me is when someone, who is disagreeing with me, misconstrues(sp?) what my point was to begin with because from that point on it is a meaningless discussion and a waste of everyones precious time.

james, this goes back to the "drawing conclusions" thing that i just addressed. let me be very clear about this. and you are just going to have to take my word for it because i have always prided myself on my credibility. i am NOT looking for a fight or a vigorous argument. if i WAS, if that was my ONLY point in my being here, do you honestly think i would still be here after all this time? just take my word for it james, that is not my agenda.

i agree.

well your question raises a few other provocative questions. what will happen if we dont speak the truth now? what will happen in the meantime until we eventually do speak the truth? will things get worse than they already are? i know this doesnt answer your question but there really isnt a direct answer to that question. but we CAN gain some more understanding if we look at all possible scenarios.

as to why i am so direct, immediate, and pulling no punches? well, because of the environment that i grew up in, i grew up fast and i grew up hard. one of the things that i have learned that i think is very valuable is that SOMETIMES, people dont wake up to what is going on until you slap them across the face. and please know that i am using that as a metaphor. i dont actually want to slap anyone across the face.

from what i have seen for the past few months, your alternative approach is what has been practiced on this board. i agree, that is the way things should initially be handled. but if months later the point still isn't getting across........

like i have maintained from the beginning, i am just here to present what i feel is the truth. that is it. that is all. if in doing that it provokes a strong reaction, so be it. if it doesnt, so be it too. in either case, i wasnt trying to provoke ANYTHING. initially, i was just putting it out there to be heard because i think it needed to be heard and what happened from that point on was anybodys guess.

james, i am honestly listening to what you are saying, i am honestly hearing it, i am honestly considering it, and i can honestly tell you that this is not the case with me. trust me, i am not trying to "bait" anyone. i can understand how you might get that impression, but it is not so. i respect your honest constructive criticism of what you might speculate to be my agenda, but this is just not the case.

the best advice i have heard all day.

Actually, what you are doing now is fine with me, and I did not mean to imply that others are completely right for the way they took things. I guess I come from a perspective that it's just obvious to me that people are going to react emotionally to certain ways of arguing, right or wrong, and knowing that means I have a responsibility to take that into account.

I think you are in "live and learn" mode here, and that's fine. The rest of us should try to be in the same mode as we try to hear you out.

OK.

OK.

Oh, absolutely, there are times when speaking the truth *now* is important, and niceties of dialogue have to be foregone. I just don't know that this was one of those times.

Thank you for sharing that. It helps to know where you are coming from.

I understand. D.J., thanks for listening. From what you say, maybe we all have been a little hasty ourselves in ascribing motives to you. Hopefully, we can all grow from this.

marriage.

Chandler

awhile and

any

our

to be more of

EDITED NO SPOILERS