I used to be a hardcore Ross/Rachel fan, but as the years went by and the relationship between Ross and Rachel became increasingly strained and unsympathetic, I have now come around to the opinion that Rachel belongs with Joey. The writers did do a good job of making Ross more likeable in the last handful of regular season episodes this year, but to me, it was too little too late. Over the course of the show, it seems clear to me that Ross is not as committed to Rachel as he would have everyone believe. He loves her as a friend, and is probably still in love with the idea of attaining his "dream girl," but he is not in love with Rachel. I think that the feelings Joey has for Rachel have been portrayed as much purer and mature.
Ross pined after Rachel for years and years, but when he finally had her, he became possessive, jealous, and insecure. When they first broke up, they could barely be in the same room together, partly due to Ross' immaturity. He has constantly been dishonest with her; for example, after they were married in Vegas, he lied and told her they had been divorced when they weren't. He selfishly hit on other women right in front of her while she was pregnant with his child. He told Joey to "go for it" with her. These just aren't the actions of a man who is truly in love with somebody. His sudden change of heart at the end of the season finale doesn't change the fact that for several years, he had been perfectly alright with him and Rachel not being together. If his feelings for Rachel were as deep as they seemed in the closing minutes of the show, there is absolutely no excuse for him to wait until AFTER the birth of their child to disclose them.
Joey, on the other hand, has slowly come to the realization that he is in love with Rachel, a realization that can't be taken lightly, as Joey has never been in love before. He has shown a mature willingness to sacrifice himself and his feelings for her own happiness, something Ross has never done. He was sensitive enough to Ross' feelings to ask his permission before confronting Rachel, and sensitive enough to Rachel's feelings to back off immediately when she rejected him, but he never, ever let the rejection come between their friendship. Joey feels something real; whatever feelings Ross has seem like his desperate attempt to relive the magic of the ninth grade.
I do not say this lightly: Rachel belongs with Joey, not Ross. I know there are many diehard Ross/Rachel fans that will be satisfied with no other ending to the show, and I used to hold the very same belief. But the way the show has progressed and the characters' lives have developed has convinced me that Ross and Rachel may have been the right ending five years ago, but from where these characters are at right now, Joey and Rachel ought to end up together. It is the best outcome for everyone involved: Joey will find true love, Rachel will find someone who will never do anything to hurt her, and Ross will be free to find someone who he truly loves instead of forced to chase dreams of the past.
Wow! That was an incredibly well thought out post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!! :-)
Kate "Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]... I used to be a hardcore Ross/Rachel fan, but as the years went by and the relationship between Ross and Rachel became increasingly strained and unsympathetic, I have now come around to the opinion that Rachel belongs with Joey. The writers did do a good job of making Ross more likeable in the last handful of regular season episodes this year, but to me, it was too little too late. Over the course of the show, it seems clear to me that Ross is not as committed to Rachel as he would have everyone believe. He loves her as a friend, and is probably still in love with the idea of attaining his "dream girl," but he is not in love with Rachel. I think that the feelings Joey has for Rachel have been portrayed as much purer and mature.
Ross pined after Rachel for years and years, but when he finally had her, he became possessive, jealous, and insecure. When they first broke up, they could barely be in the same room together, partly due to Ross' immaturity. He has constantly been dishonest with her; for example, after they were married in Vegas, he lied and told her they had been divorced when they weren't. He selfishly hit on other women right in front of her while she was pregnant with his child. He told Joey to "go for it" with her. These just aren't the actions of a man who is truly in love with somebody. His sudden change of heart at the end of the season finale doesn't change the fact that for several years, he had been perfectly alright with him and Rachel not being together. If his feelings for Rachel were as deep as they seemed in the closing minutes of the show, there is absolutely no excuse for him to wait until AFTER the birth of their child to disclose them.
Joey, on the other hand, has slowly come to the realization that he is in love with Rachel, a realization that can't be taken lightly, as Joey has never been in love before. He has shown a mature willingness to sacrifice himself and his feelings for her own happiness, something Ross has never done. He was sensitive enough to Ross' feelings to ask his permission before confronting Rachel, and sensitive enough to Rachel's feelings to back off immediately when she rejected him, but he never, ever let the rejection come between their friendship. Joey feels something real; whatever feelings Ross has seem like his desperate attempt to relive the magic of the ninth grade.
I do not say this lightly: Rachel belongs with Joey, not Ross. I know there are many diehard Ross/Rachel fans that will be satisfied with no other ending to the show, and I used to hold the very same belief. But the way the show has progressed and the characters' lives have developed has convinced me that Ross and Rachel may have been the right ending five years ago, but from where these characters are at right now, Joey and Rachel ought to end up together. It is the best outcome for everyone involved: Joey will find true love, Rachel will find someone who will never do anything to hurt her, and Ross will be free to find someone who he truly loves instead of forced to chase dreams of the past.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
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Fair comment, but I think that the writers will be forced to put Ross and Rachel together as too amny fans want it. They will want to go out on a high!!!
"bagpuss" wrote in message news:V6zF8.4285$[email]...
Unfortunately, you're probably right... the writers may feel somewhat compelled to end on a Ross/Rachel note, since so many long-time fans of the show have such an emotional investment into that couple. On the other hand, if the writers were guided solely by what the majority of the audience wanted, Ross and Rachel never would have broken up in the first place.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
and
the
hand,
I think they broke them up cos they had to. Keeps people watching, ie will they won't they get back together. In a way they have kept it dragging on too long to put them together again. Surely they would have got back together by now (if it were real of course!!!)?
I think the smart move for the writers would be: Shoot two series finales, one in which Rachel marries Ross at the end and one in which she marries Joey. Then leak carefully selected details about both endings to the fans at the same time, and let the contradictory spoilers and gossip spread all over the Internet and other media. And on the last day, get some enlightened higher intellect holed up in a secret mountain hideaway to choose which episode will actually air. That's a no-miss strategy. Nobody will be in a position to predict anything with certainty, and the aforementioned guru hermit won't feel the pressure to please the mass audience for ratings' sake because it is the very last show. Besides, the alternate ending will make terrific DVD release bonus material. All of that will certainly make up for the additional production costs, several times over. Now, that is the stuff that all-time record ratings are made of!
I've got an even better idea; actually, it wasn't my idea, it's been implemented on "Married... With Children" and Batman comic books already, but never with the help of the Internet.
Write the episode to fill 65 minutes. Air the first 60 minutes from 8-9 PM, and then tell the audience that as a "thank you" for the nine years of loyalty, they are going to get to decide the finale. Take phone calls on an 800 number and via Internet polling from 9-9:55 on the issue of whether Rachel should wind up with Ross or Joey. Even break in to the regular programming with live updates as to what the current tally is. Then at 9:55, show whichever ending a majority of the voting fans chose to see. You would still have the "bonus footage" ripe for DVD inclusion, but this way, you'd give the fans a feeling like they were personally involved in the outcome of their favorite show.
I've got an idea... well, actually, it's not MY idea, it's already been done on "Married... With Children" and in a Batman comic book, but never with the help of the Internet.
Shoot 65 minutes worth of the series finale with the two alternate endings as you suggested. From 8-9, air the episode, with a cliffhanger ending between Ross/Rachel and Joey/Rachel. Then provide an 800 number and a website for an Internet poll to ask the fans who they would prefer to see Rachel end up with. At 9:55, air the last five minutes, depending on which ending a majority of the fans selected. You could even break away from regular programming between 9 and 9:55 with live updates periodically to show how the voting stands. This way, not only do you still have the "bonus footage" for the DVD and the air of uncertainty all the way up until the final credits, but you also give the loyal fans the feeling that they were personally involved in the outcome of their favorite show. What a ratings coup this would be...
I have to say that I completely agree with you. This is what I was trying to say all along. I think that Ross thinks as Rachel as a dream girl; as a fantasy. I think that when Ross considers starting a relationship with Rachel he doesn't think about the real Rachel. He thinks about the ninth grade Rachel.
Joey on the other hand has known Rachel for eight years. He was not in love with her since the ninth grade. He has grown with her as friends and as roomates and they do seem to share a special bond. They seem to have a chemistry and they seem to click. The Ross and Rachel thing is old. This is a new fresh exciting idea and I see no reason why people shouldn't be excited about it.
I think this is a very well- written post and I thank somebody for finally showing the pros to a Joey-Rachel relationship. Ross has always been somewhat spoiled by his parents and then spoiled by having Rachel. I think that he assumed he would always have her and he never thought about her feeling when he did such stuff as write lists of stupid meaningless faults of hers, and sleep with other women five minutes after they break up. He also lied to her about finishing the letter, and he always stayed true to his we were on a break thing while he could have had Rachel if he just shut up about it. But no this is Ross; he always is right.
Please Ross and Rachel friends please just give this a chance. It could work and it could be great. Go back and watch 812. They just click they have chemistry they are cute. I think they could be great.
"Laurie" wrote in message news:I0EF8.4310$[email]...
(Amending my own post) I mean just about a week ago you argued for R&R. And I may be wrong here but didn't you argue for R&J before that? So which is it?
"Laurie" wrote in message news:KjEF8.4317$[email]...
Why? New evidence is given hourly, from what I've seen. In addition is not a clear clean set decision. I mean there is a whole lot of gray area, because we don't know what is in the hearts or minds of the characters. Also there is significant evidence for both sides weighing those variables is not without effort.
"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:DyEF8.8727$[email]...
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New evidence hourly? How many times have you argued for R&R against R&J recently? :) But I do agree, there are many gray areas with this show and minds can be changed. But this person has argued so very strongly for both sides, it's as if she (he) would never have changed an such an opinion. Am I making myself clear? Probably not.
There's an ancient Chinese proverb--Grass at top of wall falls both ways.
You see, the grass is not strong enough by itself to keep itself up straight, so when the wind blows, it could drape on either side of the wall. It speaks to the "weak-minded" person who cannot make a decision on his/her own, so whenever someone else tries to convince him/her of one thing or another, he/she invariably agrees.
Don't get me wrong--it's certainly not a bad thing to be able to change your opinion when there is enough convincing evidence. But it doesn't make sense for one to completely agree with one side one week, and then completely agree with the other the next. If one is so easily swayed, there should be sufficient evidence on both sides for there to be room for doubt. One is unlikely to "completely agree" unless one cannot think for one-self.
Reminds me of an episode of that new show (if it's still on), where the host pretends to be someone else to trick others with hidden cameras. In one of these "experiments," he pretended to be a court judge, and continually agreed with both the plaintiff and the defendant. Needless to say, someone like that did not make a good judge.
Dan, your carefully written and thoughtful essay deserves a carefully written and thoughtful response. You are painstaking in your efforts to point out why you believe certain things, and I can respect your opinion. Please do not regard anything I am about to say as a flame. It is, however, point and counterpoint. Call us Friend's answer to Carlson and Carville on Crossfire.
Over the course of the show, it seems clear to me that
Possibly this requires a definition of what being in love with somebody means. I think he is -actually more now than he ever has been before, because this year he has really looked at who she is, facing some of her worst possible behavior, and chosen to take a difficult and self-sacrificial route because he felt his family needed him to do so.
I think Joey has never had his love for Rachel tested. He's been her friend, and he's looked at her with longing, but he's never had to deal with her refusing to get dressed on the night of his big speech. He's never had to deal with abuse from her father, or declared his intention to stay with her when under attack from her mother. He's never gone celibate for her, never recovered from a really bad fight with her, never given up another girlfriend for her, never had to forgive her for 18 page letters and for ruining his final date with a girl who is about to go back to England. Ross has suffered mightly at Rachel's hands, sometimes but not always deservedly. And he's still there at her side, helping her push, bringing her flowers, trying to find a way to keep a stable and peaceful bond with her. Tell you what - if Joey sustains being crapped on by Rachel even one eighth as much next year, and he still wants her, I'll agree with you. But right now Rachel is still Joey's dream. He hasn't had to do the hard work of loving her at her worst yet.
Ok first off Rachel did not refuse to get dressed. She was trying very hard to pick out a nice outfit for his dinner. All the other "friends" (minus Phoebe) were also being difficult. Joey and Chandler were fighting over a chair and nobody is posting stuff about that. Rachel was trying to help Monica and Phoebe get ready. When she did get ready Ross humilated her and embarassed her. I don't see how abuse from Rachel's father has anything to do with their affection to one another considering Ross' parents treat him like gold he needs somebody to yell at him once in a while. No Joey has not recovered from a fight with her but he has tried to recover from being rejected and he did not let it affect his friends. The eighteen pages would not have been so important to Rachel if Ross hadn't run off the second things with Rachel got difficult and jumped in bed with another women. He got back together with Rachel while a women he slept with was hiding behind the door. And with the final date with Emily; it was Rachel who helped him realize that him and Emily wanted something more than two weeks. Joey has lived with Rachel so I'm sure he's seen his share of crap, she broke his chair for petes sake. He forgave her for that.
he
All correct. Partly also due to Rachel's abject cruelty. She has horrified me at times. There are entire years when I have absolutely hated that girl, though now is not one of them.
Personally I cannot think of anything like that. He whined and cried to his friends for going on the ski trip while Rachel was being polite and trying to "play by the rules"
He has constantly been dishonest with her; for example, after they were
Yep. She asked him to marry her. He agreed. Afterwards, she ordered him to get them an annulment that required absolutely not one moment of effort on her part whatsoever. He told her he didn't want to do it and she screamed at him. He tried, and just couldn't go through with it. She was not honest with HIM about whose idea the marriage actually was until after she got what she wanted. Ross was a spineless coward during that storyline; she was a ice cold ball buster. The thing the writers absolutely should have done, and what they did not do, was take the opportunity for these two people to consider WHY they were so quick to marry each other the moment their defenses were down and their inhibitions went away.
He still lied and it was a selfish lie. I see no reason why Rachel is portrayed as wrong in this event. She was right to want an annulment and he said he would take care of it.
He selfishly hit on other women right in front of her while she
This was the statement that I found absolutely grossly unfair. She dated while she was pregnant with his child, too, remember. In fact, she did it first; Ross did not begin with Mona until after Rachel's first date with another person. He lost Mona because he was more committed to being in Rachel's life than in making Mona comfortable. The instant - the VERY INSTANT she said she wanted him to go celibate, she did so without any hesitation at all - EVEN THOUGH Rachel herself admitted she was being unreasonable.
Yeah for like two weeks. He could go for six months using just his own talents and considering that he wasn't there for Rachel in the beginning of the pregnacy he probably felt bad.
No, these are the actions of a man who has been burned, and burned, and burned, and burned, and is trying to find some way to be in her life without allowing her to ruin his. She's hurt him horrendously a number of times. When he gave Joey permission, he did so with the idea that IF he couldn't have her, he couldn't think of a better man to be with her instead than Joey. That indicates sad resignation that he has failed - not a lack of love.
Ross is not a saint. He is not an angel. He HURT Rachel a lot more than she "hurt" him and nobody gives about that.
His
He has been no such thing. His inability to get over her, as well as his inability to articulate it effectively, has caused most of his problems. He wasn't OK with life without Rachel at the end of season four; that's why he said the wrong name. Not at the end of season five - that's why he married her, that's why he didn't want to annul their marriage. Not during season six; he refused Jill because he didn't want to accept the idea that Rachel could NEVER be his girlfriend again.
Never is a long time. I think it was werid and he was right to dump her. Rachel was honest with her sister about why Ross broke up with her and she tried to use and manupulate Ross to get back at Rachel. He was married once so obviously he was over Rachel. The beach get back together lasted all of a day because he was so selfish and immature. NO he wasn't ok with three divorces. He would have stayed married to anybody not to get three divorceds. If his feelings for Rachel were as deep as they
for
I think he told Phoebe pretty clearly exactly why he didn't disclose them. Rachel has spurned him repeatedly for years. She left him on a fire escape to freeze to death. She called for the Break. She threw him out of bed because he wouldn't lick her boots over that HORRIFIC 18 page letter. She divorced him in a particularly humiliating, abusive (and perjorative) scene in front of the court of New York. He even kind of told her to marry him earlier this year and she turned him down again - and then lied to their friends about who came on to whom in an attempt to humiliate him. Rachel's behavior towards Ross verges on abusive. Gee, why would he be afraid to face her rejection yet again? Why? Because he doesn't want to hurt Emma in the process this time. That wasn't cowardly; it was mature and even a little noble.
He slept with another women. He was jealous of her job. He didn't give her space to be her. He thought of her as the 15 year old who couldn't handle herself and he still does. He was not always there for her. did you read the letter. Rachel was scared about starting thigs with ross and he didn't have to lie about reading the letter. He could have said I feel alsleep. Number two you didn't see if she threw him out of bed. There is no real love between them. it is not pure or anything.
No, he suddenly found himself attracted to her after a single fake date.
It could take months to fall in love days even and if Joey did fall in love with Rachel it is wrong of you to say it is not real because these feelings surfaced after a date. He has shown a mature willingness to sacrifice
No, actually he sacrificed himself for his friendship with Ross. Rachel moved in with Ross so that Ross could be a more active father to Emma. Joey is a strong supporter of the nuclear family; he always has been. Way back when Chandler dated Janice, it was Joey who counseled Chandler to give up Janice because she and her husband had a child together. He didn't feel Chandler should break up a family. That family failed anyway, but the prognosis for Ross and Rachel is better than for Janice and the Mattress King. It would have been grossly out of character for Joey to have stood in their way last year... and I don't he really will next year, either.
He was sensitive enough to Ross' feelings to ask his permission
back
rejection
Nope. Of course, she never made him apologize to a cat, either.
What? There is nothing wrong with the above statement.
the
No, I think that magic went away several bad fights ago. Ross' illusions about Rachel ended during the bad patch of the fourth season, and that's when he stopped being a doormat and began protesting - but he never really stopped loving her. Why the hell not, I've no idea, since I've spent about half this show's run wanting to cut all Rachel's hair off in her sleep, but he never did. (Note: this year is not one where I've hated Rachel. I've done pregnancy hormones. They can really mess with your emotions.)
I think that Ross never really loved Rachel it was a crush a superfical crush and she was pretty and hot and he was attracted to her on some level there was love, but that could not last after all the horrible stuff. But the way
years
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Yeah, that's what we said about Ross during season two. Trust me, Dan if this show were to continue with Rachel and Joey as a couple for a few years, they'd hurt each other plenty. Romantic fights, secrets, intrigues or conflicts have driven this show in every single good year it's had. Frankly, I think after the first really bad fight with Joey, Rachel would go crying to Ross. Ross would be a shadow in their marriage, a constant presence and a threat to Joey because he's Emma's father and he's the guy Rachel really expects will never completely go away. And with constant exposure to Rachel as the mother of his child, Ross will NEVER be free to love anybody else. He never has before, and lord knows he's tried, with a couple of women who were intellectually much better suited to him than Rachel is.
Please Rachel has grown stronger and she loves Joey we just don't know on what level, she has stopped crying to people long ago and she is handlding herself well know. She was fully prepared to raise this baby alone. I think Ross needs Julie back. She was his best girlfriend. He can get over Rachel and he has.
Dan, your carefully written and thoughtful essay deserves a carefully written and thoughtful response. You are painstaking in your efforts to point out why you believe certain things, and I can respect your opinion. Please do not regard anything I am about to say as a flame. It is, however, point and counterpoint. Call us Friend's answer to Carlson and Carville on Crossfire.
Over the course of the show, it seems clear to me that
Possibly this requires a definition of what being in love with somebody means. I think he is -actually more now than he ever has been before, because this year he has really looked at who she is, facing some of her worst possible behavior, and chosen to take a difficult and self-sacrificial route because he felt his family needed him to do so.
I think Joey has never had his love for Rachel tested. He's been her friend, and he's looked at her with longing, but he's never had to deal with her refusing to get dressed on the night of his big speech. He's never had to deal with abuse from her father, or declared his intention to stay with her when under attack from her mother. He's never gone celibate for her, never recovered from a really bad fight with her, never given up another girlfriend for her, never had to forgive her for 18 page letters and for ruining his final date with a girl who is about to go back to England. Ross has suffered mightly at Rachel's hands, sometimes but not always deservedly. And he's still there at her side, helping her push, bringing her flowers, trying to find a way to keep a stable and peaceful bond with her. Tell you what - if Joey sustains being crapped on by Rachel even one eighth as much next year, and he still wants her, I'll agree with you. But right now Rachel is still Joey's dream. He hasn't had to do the hard work of loving her at her worst yet.
he
All correct. Partly also due to Rachel's abject cruelty. She has horrified me at times. There are entire years when I have absolutely hated that girl, though now is not one of them.
Yep. She asked him to marry her. He agreed. Afterwards, she ordered him to get them an annulment that required absolutely not one moment of effort on her part whatsoever. He told her he didn't want to do it and she screamed at him. He tried, and just couldn't go through with it. She was not honest with HIM about whose idea the marriage actually was until after she got what she wanted. Ross was a spineless coward during that storyline; she was a ice cold ball buster. The thing the writers absolutely should have done, and what they did not do, was take the opportunity for these two people to consider WHY they were so quick to marry each other the moment their defenses were down and their inhibitions went away.
This was the statement that I found absolutely grossly unfair. She dated while she was pregnant with his child, too, remember. In fact, she did it first; Ross did not begin with Mona until after Rachel's first date with another person. He lost Mona because he was more committed to being in Rachel's life than in making Mona comfortable. The instant - the VERY INSTANT she said she wanted him to go celibate, she did so without any hesitation at all - EVEN THOUGH Rachel herself admitted she was being unreasonable.
No, these are the actions of a man who has been burned, and burned, and burned, and burned, and is trying to find some way to be in her life without allowing her to ruin his. She's hurt him horrendously a number of times. When he gave Joey permission, he did so with the idea that IF he couldn't have her, he couldn't think of a better man to be with her instead than Joey. That indicates sad resignation that he has failed - not a lack of love.
His
He has been no such thing. His inability to get over her, as well as his inability to articulate it effectively, has caused most of his problems. He wasn't OK with life without Rachel at the end of season four; that's why he said the wrong name. Not at the end of season five - that's why he married her, that's why he didn't want to annul their marriage. Not during season six; he refused Jill because he didn't want to accept the idea that Rachel could NEVER be his girlfriend again.
If his feelings for Rachel were as deep as they
for
I think he told Phoebe pretty clearly exactly why he didn't disclose them. Rachel has spurned him repeatedly for years. She left him on a fire escape to freeze to death. She called for the Break. She threw him out of bed because he wouldn't lick her boots over that HORRIFIC 18 page letter. She divorced him in a particularly humiliating, abusive (and perjorative) scene in front of the court of New York. He even kind of told her to marry him earlier this year and she turned him down again - and then lied to their friends about who came on to whom in an attempt to humiliate him. Rachel's behavior towards Ross verges on abusive. Gee, why would he be afraid to face her rejection yet again? Why? Because he doesn't want to hurt Emma in the process this time. That wasn't cowardly; it was mature and even a little noble.
No, he suddenly found himself attracted to her after a single fake date.
He has shown a mature willingness to sacrifice
No, actually he sacrificed himself for his friendship with Ross. Rachel moved in with Ross so that Ross could be a more active father to Emma. Joey is a strong supporter of the nuclear family; he always has been. Way back when Chandler dated Janice, it was Joey who counseled Chandler to give up Janice because she and her husband had a child together. He didn't feel Chandler should break up a family. That family failed anyway, but the prognosis for Ross and Rachel is better than for Janice and the Mattress King. It would have been grossly out of character for Joey to have stood in their way last year... and I don't he really will next year, either.
He was sensitive enough to Ross' feelings to ask his permission
back
rejection
Nope. Of course, she never made him apologize to a cat, either.
the
No, I think that magic went away several bad fights ago. Ross' illusions about Rachel ended during the bad patch of the fourth season, and that's when he stopped being a doormat and began protesting - but he never really stopped loving her. Why the hell not, I've no idea, since I've spent about half this show's run wanting to cut all Rachel's hair off in her sleep, but he never did. (Note: this year is not one where I've hated Rachel. I've done pregnancy hormones. They can really mess with your emotions.)
But the way
years
ought
to
Yeah, that's what we said about Ross during season two. Trust me, Dan if this show were to continue with Rachel and Joey as a couple for a few years, they'd hurt each other plenty. Romantic fights, secrets, intrigues or conflicts have driven this show in every single good year it's had. Frankly, I think after the first really bad fight with Joey, Rachel would go crying to Ross. Ross would be a shadow in their marriage, a constant presence and a threat to Joey because he's Emma's father and he's the guy Rachel really expects will never completely go away. And with constant exposure to Rachel as the mother of his child, Ross will NEVER be free to love anybody else. He never has before, and lord knows he's tried, with a couple of women who were intellectually much better suited to him than Rachel is.
Maybe from many others, but not from me. I feel the counterpoints are very effective in pointing out the significant fear factor in the relationship between Ross and Rachel. Fear is not love. Ross doesn't act because of fear. Rachel doesn't commit, because of fear the past will repeat itself. Love doe not include fear. To me love is about doing what is best for the person you love without thinking. For both Ross and Rachel their fear causes them to pause and it spells disaster for a future relationship.
And what is wrong with an 18 page letter. I thought communication is always good.
Now I also see nothing wrong with an eighteen page letter. Rachel was trying to be mature and get everything out in the open before Ross and her got back together. She probably just expresses herself better on paper then in words and Ross didn't have to lie about the letter. He could have said I am not ready to answer that question yet. He should have also tried to be mature.
The letter itself was not wrong; her demands were, however. And if Ross told Rachel the truth, she'd completely freak out. Rachel's no innocent here. Just the night before, she got Bonnie to shave her head to sabotage her relationship with Ross.
Rachel saw Bonnie, and told Phoebe she didn't expect Ross to be this happy so soon.
She drove Bonnie away by convincing her to shave her head so Ross would be repulsed.
She made out with Ross on the bed and tried to pull him down for sex. He jumped up and said he couldn't do it without breaking up with Bonnie. So Rachel tried to get him to do to Bonnie precisely what she was punishing him for doing to her. Hypocrite.
Ross came back expecting the welcoming arms he'd been promised. Rachel handed him a letter and refused to let him kiss her. She offered forgiveness and delivered instead a very long, blaming diatribe in which she demanded that he grovel on his knees to her in abject submission, every problem entirely and solely his fault in every way. Good God!
Ross agreed to her demands. Even after he realized what they were, he tried to live with his decision.
And she pushed him, and pushed him and pushed him. She goaded him and condescended to him - WHILE THEY WERE IN BED TOGETHER! Good God! - until he just couldn't swallow any more dirt. I absolutely HATED Rachel in that episode. That was the exact moment I began calling her Princess Bitch.
Yeah, real mature stuff. A real attempt at honest communication. Terrible. I was rooting for Emily before the year ended. The biggest reason I no longer do so is that new loves don't solve their old problems. They are going to have to try some REAL communication - BOTH directions - for once. Phoebe for Relationship Counselor!
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:9PUF8.1463$[email]...
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Aren't you being a tad of a hypocrite here? You are judging Rachel by a different standard than Ross. Ross pauses and won't be rushed into something and thats okay. However when Rachel pauses and asks him to look at how she feels, that is not okay?
"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:YfVF8.585$[email]...
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So
something
No, Ross won't cheat on Bonnie. He breaks up with her instead. Rachel was trying to get him to cheat on Bonnie, even though the perception of cheating is what broke them up. She was willing to have sex with him when he had a girlfriend, but when he became single again she suddenly had strings attached. That's what I called hypocrisy. Worse than that, it was cold-blooded bait-and-switch tactics. Horrific behavior.
As for Rachel pausing and asking him to look at how she feels, well, that isn't what she did. They didn't "discuss" how she felt. She commanded him to accept every single inch of blame for every single problem they had, without question or quarter. There was not one single element of give and take in that exchange whatsoever. She ordered him to grovel, and after he actually accepted her poison pen letter for what it was, she insisted on shoving his nose in it over and over again until he choked. Now, he behaved like a cowardly weenie throughout the entire thing, so I am not going to call him the innocent victim here, but acting like she was a mature responsible adult who made an honest effort to work through their problems in that particular episode is just laughable. Never, ever has she behaved so badly before or since. That was Rachel's worst hour, bar none.
But for the millionth time, if Rachael was going to have feelings for Joey, she would've by now. Especially since she knows how he feels. Why is Rachael's feelings not ever considered here when talking about whom she should be with? Rachael does not love Joey. You can express all the opionions you want, but that's one fact you can't get around of.
I don't think anybody really knows what Rachel feels. If we haven't seen Rachel express any feelings for Joey doesn't mean she doesn't have any or that they couldn't develop sometime soon.
well, i'm 150% against rachel and joey, and all for Ross and rachel. But disagree with the statement that since we've seen no interest from rachel in joey, she has no feelings and never will. Rachel didn't realize her feelings for ross until after she knew of his feelings. As much as it pains me to say this, rachel could theoretically develop feelings for joey. But i dont think she will.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:KeDF8.3343$[email]...
however,
on
I don't regard anything anyone says as a flame. You'd be surprised how thick my skin is. Especially around my head. :)
He
self-sacrificial
And I don't think he took that route because of Rachel. He took it for the child's sake. Look at what he went through for Ben... he had to deal with the pain of losing his wife to another woman. That's certainly more difficult than what he went through for Rachel. Everything he did for Rachel, he did for the child's sake, even offering to marry her. And if you'll recall, when Ross suggested they get married, Rachel declined. When Joey held up a ring, on the other hand, she said "OK." Food for thought.
with
had
Ross
deservedly.
you
Ross has no backbone. It's been my experience that in relationships, some women will push as hard as they're allowed to. Rachel is definitely one of those women. Ross never had the upper hand in his relationship with Rachel. This is not to say that Joey would be any different, because we don't know how he'd react, but I don't think he would take being crapped on by Rachel even one eighth as much as Ross has. He's a bit more masculine than Ross. And that's what Rachel needs, a man, not a cowering, oversensitive doormat.
storyline;
So far, you haven't really provided any reasons why Ross and Rachel belong together. It seems to me that their history has been that when they are together, they bring out the worst in each other. Sure, they're both cute and sympathetic when they're longing for one another, but once they're together, they both become unlikeable. Why would you root for this relationship to last? Rachel will inevitably transform once again into that woman you hate, and Ross will shrivel back into spineless insecurity. You are proving my point for me. Ross and Rachel do not belong together because throughout the history of this show, they have done horrible, rotten things to one another in the name of love. It isn't love these two share. At this point, it's almost like an addiction, a co-dependence, an inability or an unwillingness to go out there and find someone better suited for them. I won't root for that.
More proof of my point. It doesn't matter who dated first while she was pregnant. The fact that they both did it without much of a second thought is the important fact here. These two are not committed to one another, plain and simple. It seems to me that you want so badly to get back the Ross and Rachel that we saw in the first season. Well, at first, I wanted that too. But as the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th seasons rolled on, it became clear to me that there is no happy future between Ross and Rachel. It's sad, but it's true. All the evidence points to the harsh reality that the closer together these two are, the more problems and cruelty pops up. Why would Rachel make unreasonable demands of Ross if she loved him? Why would she date someone else while pregnant with his child? Why would he start up with Mona in the first place? To make her jealous? Is that the foundation of a healthy, happy relationship? Did Chandler and Monica ever do this, ever ONCE date someone else just to make the other person jealous?
without
And once again, you provide more reason to conclude that they don't belong together. I agree with you. He's been burned. And burned. And burned. And burned. And yet here you are rooting for him to jump into the fire one last time just so you can remember what the flesh smells like.
I'll tell you one thing right now. If I was in love with someone, I would never, never, not in a million years, give my blessing for a close friend to ask her out. NEVER. I have been in this situation, so I know whereof I speak.
the
He
he
Speculation. And that's not what he told Emily. He told Emily he said her name because he didn't think she was coming, he was happy to see her, and her name just popped into his head.
Not at the end of season five - that's why he married
Speculation. And that's not what he told Rachel. He told Rachel he didn't want to annul the marriage because he didn't want to have three failed marriages.
Not during season
Hey wait a second... I thought you stopped watching the show in disgust during season six.
escape
scene
Rachel's
And you still want to see them together? LOL!! You must really hate Ross...
in
Sorry, Claire, but if you got the notion that Joey's attraction to Rachel was "sudden," you were watching a different episode. His feelings for her evolved over a period of years, just like Chandler and Monica's. Would you characterize Chandler and Monica's attraction as "sudden"?
Again, Claire... you see what you want to see.
Rachel
Joey
Is it? In my opinion, based on an evaluation of the last eight seasons of this show, the prognosis for Ross and Rachel is dead on arrival.
You keep throwing out these horrible things that Rachel has done to Ross as though they are evidence why Rachel should be with Ross. I'm not following your logic at all.
Maybe he never really started. He was busy being in love with the idea of having his ninth grade object of worship.
years,
So, in a nutshell, you've decided Rachel belongs with Ross because she's already hurt him over and over and over, and Rachel doesn't belong with Joey because even though she hasn't hurt him yet, she probably will given time. So even though Ross and Rachel have proven to be mostly incompatible, you'd rather root for them to end up together because Ross, at least, is used to the anguish.
Romantic fights, secrets, intrigues or
It's a sitcom, Claire. There's conflict in every episode. You define the "good years" by the conflicts you enjoy. But just because you may think the show had a bad year doesn't mean there wasn't any conflict.
go
From what we've seen so far, Joey loves Rachel without question, no strings attached. He is entirely unthreatened in his feelings for her. When he was worried what Ross would say, he went straight to Ross and confronted him. When he was rejected by Rachel, he swallowed his pride, lifted his chin, and told her that no matter what happened their friendship would never suffer. He stepped aside while she moved in with Ross although his feelings hadn't diminished in any way. I don't know why you naturally assume that a relationship with Rachel and Joey would follow the same patterns as the relationship between Rachel and Ross. Relationships don't have to be that way, Claire. The man doesn't always feel threatened, the woman doesn't always henpeck, and the relationship is sometimes based around love and honesty rather than need and insecurity. Joey and Rachel have untapped potential. They have the potential to have a happy relationship. Ross and Rachel do not. They have had their chances and failed miserably. There is no reason to think that if they got back together, things would be different. I don't understand how you could continue to root for a relationship that in the past has been plagued with bickering, backstabbing, and brutality. All parties involved need a change.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
they
Not quite.
They were very happy together for almost a year. In one rather sweet scene, Rachel tried to reassure Ross by talking how he was the best she'd ever had. They connected. That resulted in animal sex. They don't bring out the worst in each other when they are happy and together. They bring out the worst in each other when they struggle under contrived situations to keep apart despite their latent longing.
Sure, they're both
they're
No, they are unlikeable when they are fighting their attraction. They were actually pretty likeable while they were dating - just a tad lovey dovey sickening and dull. The marriage was unpleasant because they weren't honest with each other about why they did it. The first reconciliation didn't work out because she tricked him into it and didn't enter into an honest, two-way dialogue, and he lied to her about reading the letter.
I am rooting for it to grow - because in the past year, it has. I think there is every bit as much chance they will start talking to each other honestly as there is a chance that Rachel will do a 180 and suddenly fall in love with Joey. And she's just done something that's going to hurt Joey, because if she figures out it was Ross's ring she IS going to dump him like a brick, and he's going to realize he's the backup plan.
Why do you want Joey to be a backup plan? Doesn't he deserve better than that?
And if Rachel starts dating Ross, Joey is "inevitably" going to end up being the Latest Obstacle in the ongoing saga. And he never gets to escape this because Ross and Rachel share a child, so Ross is going to be a shadow partner in this marriage forever. And their mutual friends are all of the explicitly expressed opinion that Ross and Rachel belong together. Yeah, this prognosis is great. Run, Joey, RUN!
was
No, what they are is not honest with each other. That MUST change, and you're right; without that honesty, they cannot succed. But Dan, I think it's an absolute given that in order for anything in this muddled mess to work out, the old patterns are going to have to be broken in one way or another. If you get your way, once again, there will have to be a change of pattern. Right now, Joey is in a real good spot to become Joshua - so watch out the instant Ross starts dating somebody else or thinks about getting married again. If the old patterns don't change, Joey is NOT going to solve the problem. He's going to become yet another casualty. Ross and Rachel need to work through their feelings for each other, period. Joey has not done anything to alter their dynamic which is any different from what Emily or Tag did. He is not the medicine they need to heal, and because they share a child, they will never be apart again. I have said in the past that Ross might have been better off running away from Rachel forever, but that option is closed to him permanently now. It is better that they make a real, genuine, honest attempt to fix this for once.
the
Dan, he's stuck in the fire for the rest of his life. There's no way around it; he can only go through now, because of Emma. What I am rooting for is a fire extinguisher, and it's possible because it's a sitcom. If you say they couldn't make it in real life, remember - nothing in this story has been even remotely believable for years.
Different people make different choices. I might.
his
Well, so is the statement that "he's been fine with being apart from Rachel for years."
Nobody believed that. If it had been true, that marriage would have made it.
Phoebe told him and us that he didn't want to annul the marriage because he loved Rachel. That's not speculation. That was in the script.
Rachel
disgust
Nope, seven. I began being disgusted with Mondler in season six, but I didn't start throwing things at the screen until the single most overwritten, badly overacted proposal scene in the history of television.
excuse
them.
She
him
No, I want her to grow up. If she doesn't, she's not going to be happily married to anybody for long - and after her divorce from Joey (who isn't going to put up with this crap for a moment), guess who she's going to run back to? While holding Emma hostage. No, no. Write them some therapy instead.
Mind you, Rachel basically mistreats every single guy she goes out with.
This is the woman who introduced herself to the audience by running away
from her wedding day without a word to the groom, and then started sleeping
with him when he got engaged to somebody else. Then she dumped him because
*he* was a two-timer. Her conduct with Tag was unprofessional and
disturbing; she should have been fired. There are a lot of people here who
have wisely said that Rachel needs to grow up before she is deserving of
either man. Ross, at least, was a good husband to Carol until she announced
she was gay. He's been a good lover to somebody. Rachel never has.
has
That's your perception. The writers said that the Joey/Rachel connection was a surprise they weren't expecting this year. If the writers didn't consider Joey and Rachel a possible couple until they started trying to figure out what they were doing for February sweeps, I don't know how you could equate that with Chandler and Monica. I will agree about C&M; the writers clearly had decided to pair them at some point by at least the end of season three. But once again, my statement that Joey was not preplanned is actually a statement of provable fact, straight from staff interviews.
Yeah, so do you. So do most of us. Kauffman said with some amusement that there were two shows - the one they write and produce and the one the audience watches. Joey told Rachel to move in with Ross because Ross was complaining that he didn't get enough time to do all the things the father should do.
back
up
arrival.
That is entirely a matter of opinion. But yes, based on Ross' behavior regarding Ben, he is NOT going to abandon Emma and run off with Miss Big Boobs. Ben has a bedroom in Ross' apartment. And Ross hangs out with Rachel constantly. He always has, for eight years. They will never be apart the way Janice and Mattress Dunce are.
Ross
No, in this case, I'm pointing out evidence that Ross is in it for the long haul, no matter what happens.
of
illusions
really
Once again, that is only your opinion. And the script, which you regard as gospel, disagrees with you. They say they loved each other. Phoebe is convinced they still do. They all are.
Joey
anything
if
at
Nope. I am saying that both of us are expecting a miracle to happen to make
what we want work out. The miracle you are rooting for, as Joey and Rachel
enter a marriage which involves almost constant contact with Ross, is that
Rachel won't just play her "I'm dumping my current guy because I want you
again" game with Joey as the most recent chump the moment Ross tries to go
on with his life. Miss New Boobs and the Twins are going to anger Rachel
whether she's married to Joey or not. The miracle I'm rooting for is that
they will examine their behavior, sit down with their daughter, and really
think about where they want their lives to go. Joey does not represent a
change of pattern for them. Honesty does, and that's what they need to
succeed.
think
There's no point in going here. You think six and seven were good years, and nothing I can say will change that, even though I thought six was almost unwatchable, overpowered by very silly and superficial bickering which mostly involved Monica putting Chandler down constantly. I lost my respect for Courteney as an actress there. There's no point in discussing that any more. We do not agree and we will not sway each other.
would
guy
friendship
although
It won't. I am anticipating that Rachel will treat Joey exactly the same way she has treated every other guy she's dated while apart from Ross. Joey's not going to be Ross, but he sure as hell might be Joshua. She's got way too much unfinished business with Ross to be able to commit herself to anybody else. He does not need to end up on the trash heap with the rest of the parade.
Relationships don't
around
No, they don't. Not unless the patterns of the past change, because Ross and Rachel will never be out of each others lives entirely. We are both faced with the same brick wall, Dan; Ross and Rachel MUST find new ways to deal with each other, or they will continue as they have forever, driving away each other's lovers. What Rachel did to Joey last episode - accepting a proposal he hadn't made, with half-hearted enthusiasm, when they'd never been a real couple at all, because Janice scared her - annoyed me. Joey is in prime position to become Emily/Joshua/Bonnie/ right now. When she finds out that ring belongs to Ross, she's going retract that "OK" pretty quickly, because it wasn't said for the right reason.
be
And there is no reason to think that Joey's going to be able to fix this at all...
Unless the patterns change. They must. They will. One way or the other, for your dream scenario or mine, they have to. I believed that a new love could save Ross back in season four, and I supported Emily at the time. I learned that this was not true. I hoped Mona could give him a happy ending but she couldn't. Tag has come and Paul has gone. New loves do not save these two, Dan. That has tried and failed. Joey is just the latest installment, and as a main character of this show, he deserves better. No, I do not think the fact that he's a main character is going to change anything. The circumstances of Rachel's "OK" have convinced me that he's been thrown in as a contrived sweeps stunt, like all the rest. But honesty might. It hastn't been tried before. It just might. And if we've got to have a miracle, I vote for the miracle that leaves a family intact.
Upon reading this thread, no one has asked this question--does Rachel deserve Ross or Joey? That Rachel would so nonchalantly agree to a supposed wedding proposal by Joey and God knows what she's done to Ross over the year, a case could be made that the answer is "no."
"manhn" wrote in message news:LVEF8.98015$[email]...
supposed
Grin. I like the way this man is thinking.
However, let's go on with the idea that Rachel is this great prize.
"Caitrion" wrote in message news:[email]...
There is no nice way to say this. Bull****. She dawdled and she dawdled and she chose one very inappropriate outfit after another. Women who are going to go to a black tie dinner NEVER wait until the last available second to decide what to wear. They make their choice, they make sure it's been dry cleaned and they know what hairstyle and jewelry are going to go with it. Rachel dawdled deliberately to get the focus back on herself and keep him off kilter. It's a classic manipulative move, and we've got family stories just about this kind of crap.
Well, the behavior of the others in this scene was not relevant to this conversation.
Yep. He should have left without her. Her behavior was absolutely inexcusable from beginning to end. There is absolutely nothing you can say that will make me budge an inch on this one.
Well, that's a non sequitor if I ever heard one. The fact that Ross has tolerated incredible abuse from Dr. Green does not indicate his devotion to Rachel because his own parents are nice to him? Huh?
OK, so what you are saying here is that you don't really have a defense for Rachel's letter, so you are debating with me by pointing out why they broke up.
Yep. She sure changed her mind on that quickly, didn't she?
OK. Ross gives up at least four women for Rachel, Joey gets over the fact that she broke his chair. Sounds even to me.
Rachel set up the ski trip to get back at Ross for hogging the Friends one evening. When the car broke down, Ross came and got them out of trouble and Rachel still would't let him come along. Rachel may have been justified in being impolite, but she wasn't kind by any objective standard. They *both* wronged their friends this episode, and that was the point Phoebe tried to make.
He didn't want an annulment. He told her so. She commanded him to end the marriage she requested even though he wanted to remain married, and she refused to take an active part in actually making that happen. She tried to force him to do ALL the work in a legal process she wanted and he did not. I was impressed with neither of them.
Grossly, completely, abjectly unfair. He was at her side from the first sonogram on. It was not a matter of his "not being there for Rachel" - the living arrangements made it hard, and they fixed that problem.
Nope, never said he was.
They've both done their share. I'm just explaining why he was cautious.
Yeah, Emily sure thought so, didn't she?
And while we are discussing Emily, let's consider a new issue.
Rachel and Ross have had quite a see-saw. Consider this:
Is it a situation where they keep trying to get back together again, but their reconciliation never really works out?
Or is it a situation where they both keep trying to declare themselves over each other, but circumstances always draw them back together whether they like it or not? I haven't seen that they have given their relationship a genuine revival with both of them on even ground since their first breakup. I've seen them try unsuccessfully to reject each other repeatedly, but somehow they are drawn again to each other every time. And they have left a mind-boggling list of casualities in their wake as they attempt to move on:
Julie. Bonnie. Joshua. Emily. Tag. Jill. Mona.
Does anybody REALLY want to see the name "Joey" added to that forlorn list?
They are coming awfully close, and it may already be too late. And yet,
Rachel is currently VERY clearly being shown to look upon Joey as a backup
plan, the second string. Is it best for her to settle for him when she has
such a history of being drawn to the father of her child? Is she going to
say "I take thee, Ross" on her wedding day to Joey? Does everybody want
this to be the November sweeps stunt? OK, just shoot me now.
The counter argument to this is to say, "Well, the writers can make her suddenly fall in love with Joey, even though she's shown evidence that she is not." In which case, my answer is, "Well, then, the writers can make Ross and Rachel be entirely honest with each other and grow up, too." Which I prefer. Because if it's possible for the nuclear family to live happily ever after, I am pulling for that result.
This is an unhealthy situation for Joey. He deserves better than to be the guy who is always a drunken weekend or a big misunderstanding from joining the likes of Joshua and Mona on the trash heap. As Ross said to Rachel in his great balcony scene in 201, Joey deserves somebody who sees HIM, who says "I'm with Joey!" Rachel just hasn't done that.
Good arguments on both sides, but I have to say I agree with Dan on this issue. I was a die-hard fan of R&R for years, but the fact of the matter is, as a couple they are terrible. That doesn't mean that they don't love each other, just that they tend to bring out the worst in each other instead of the best when they are intimately involved. Honesty will not change that, and a baby will not change that.
Just because Rachel did not return Joey's feelings at the time he confessed, does not mean that she doesn't and can't/won't fall in love with him. Rachel does love Joey as a friend, and sometimes that kind of love does turn into something more, especially with people who are a little older, more mature, and more focused on what kind of partner they want, not just who makes their hormones surge.
I say these things because I have had a relationship very very similar to R&R, except it's been since the 7th grade(!) and I am now 31. And we never drunkenly got married in Vegas =). I was the one with the crush on him when we were young, and we've tried having a romantic relationship a few times over the past 15 years. Despite the incredible amount of love, the honesty, the shared experiences between us, when we are involved romantically, we bring out the absolute WORST in one another. We would have been so much better off just staying friends, but now our friendship is in tatters. I can't imagine what we would do if we had a child!
I identify with Ross in that it is hard to find love with another when your heart was captured so young, but isn't there someone who will always occupy a special place in your heart, even though you are sharing your life with someone else? Ross deserves to move beyond his 15 year old fantasy and truly love someone who loves him, respects him, and brings out the best in him. Rachel has never shown respect for him, his feelings, profession or strengths.
I also identify with Rachel in that she's a little older now, and has a baby to raise, and is looking for someone more practical, who perhaps grounds her, brings out her warm and nurturing side. Clearly Ross has never brought that out in her, but Joey has. And when was the last time R&R shared any fun, simple joy and laughter? That is so important! Now think about R&J, watching Cujo for example, or switching books. Remember how cute they were as roommates?
R&R, while a couple, became two of the most self-involved, childish, petty people I've ever seen. Even as friends, when they argue or face a challenge in their friendship, the same patterns emerge. Why does anyone think that would suddenly change now???
If Ross and Rachel do get back together, AGAIN, I feel sorry for Emma. Being raised in a home with two neurotic, selfish, defensive parents who argue all the time and don't have fun together is not healthy, and that's R&R as a couple. The fantasy is an illusion.
Just my $.02. Ok, more like $1.02; I'm pretty long-winded! (yeah, I don't see anything wrong with the 18 page letter either - I've written a few ;-)
Let's switch Ross and Joey. Had Joey and Rachel been the original "it" couple of this series, do you think they would've acted perfectly? Let's remember that a lot of the "mistakes" that Ross committed were either suggested or supported by Joey. Do you think Joey would be able to read that 18-page letter by Rachel? Do you think Joey would've been okay with Rachel working so intimately with a good-lookin' guy? Do you think Joey could've been celebate if she asked him to, even though they were not going out?
I'm not the one who said Ross made "mistakes". I said Ross AND Rachel bring out the worst in each OTHER. They are both to blame for the many problems they have had in their relationship. Of course Rachel and Joey would have had problems if they had been the original "it" couple, but because Joey is not Ross, and R&J relate in a totally different way than R&R, even the same problems would have been resolved differently.
Using your examples: the 18 page letter... the problem was that he got the later late at night and fell asleep reading it, and he lied to Rachel about finishing it. Why did he lie? Why couldn't he have just been mature and said "I need some more time to read it and figure out how I feel?" One would think if the person you supposedly loved more than anything in the world poured her heart out to you and shared her innermost thoughts, you would want to read what she wrote, and you would read the whole thing, even if it took a long time and was hard to get through. Also, perhaps Rachel would have never felt compelled to write such a letter to Joey in the first place. Even if she did, I think he'd probably want to read it, even if it took him a few days. Remember, he did read "Little Women" so we know he's not illiterate. I'm sure he'd bitch and moan to Chandler and Ross...but I think the true problem here was not the length of the letter, but the fact that Ross lied about reading it. Would Joey have lied too? Maybe...we'll never ever know. Personally, I could see him making some kind of wisecrack like, "Ok, I'll get back to in a week or so, once I've had the chance to read this!"
I think Joey has a lot more self-confidence than Ross and would not have been nearly as threatened as Ross was by Rachel's working closely with attractive men. If Joey was threatened, he probably wouldn't act the way Ross did; Joey would probably just warn the guy to never touch Rachel or he'd beat the crap out of him. Ross went waaaaay overboard with all of the stuff he sent.
I believe Joey, like Ross, would do whatever Rachel asked him to do while she was carrying his child, even choose to be celibate, because he loves her. It would have been very difficult for him, I'm sure, (and I think the writers would have had a lot of fun with such a storyline!) Maybe he wouldn't have been able to do it, and that would introduce a huge rift in their relationship. Who knows?
It's been fun speculating, but really, what's the point? Joey is not Ross, and R&J are not R&R. R&J would have had totally different circumstances to deal with. I still think, based on what we have seen in the two different relationships as they've played out in the last 8 years, that R&R tend to bring out the worst in each other, and J&R tend to bring out each others' positive qualities.
That is entirely a result of the function the different characters have played in the show. Make no mistake. There is one, and exactly one, reason why Ross and Rachel have bickered so much ever since they broke up: the writers found it more interesting to write them as a couple at odds, unable to come together, than to write them as a happy couple. Furthermore, when they attempted to write a happy/happy couple (Chandler and Monica) and make that happiness the driving force of the show, it was eventually a failure. It worked in season five because they had another conflict which added the needed sandpaper to be funny - the romance was a secret. When that conflict was gone, and the show was still entirely about them it was almost dreadful for two years. I stopped watching in disgust.
If Joey and Rachel had been the driving couple from season one, the problem would have been *exactly* the same. They would have had to break them up to keep them from being Mondler boring. And then we would have seen the spoiled brat hissing at the womanizing idiot, and when Ross, who was allowed to remain sweet all this time because he *wasn't* required to fight with Rachel, fell in love with her in season eight while she was carrying Joey's baby, folks would now be making the same argument in favor of him that they are making in favor of Joey.
If they can force Rachel to fall in love with Joey when it's obvious she is not, they can make Ross and Rachel grow up a little bit and come together. I don't like Rachel as a person, though she's a great character and beautifully acted. I agree with Lewis; both men are too good for her. But I do like Ross - when he's behaving well. Right now, because he has to carry the show again, and because the writers are trying to make the viewers root for him, he is behaving with the same slightly nervous kindness that so appealed to me in the first place. I don't want Mental Geller to come back again. If Joey wins this, we get Mental Geller for the duration.
The two men are at a crossroads. One will be the Romantic Lead. One will be the Goofy Sidekick. Joey as Goofy Sidekick is dumb, and he makes bad decisions, but he's likeable and charming - and LeBlanc REALLY prefers playing him this way. Ross as Goofy Sidekick is an unsettling, socially unappealing jerk who isn't particularly funny and who always makes me think the pain over Rachel drove him insane at last. However, when push comes to shove Schwimmer is a more complete actor than LeBlanc is and just handles the dramatic stuff with more resonance. Ross the Romantic Lead is a sensitive and heart-rending presence. LeBlanc, while entirely competent, is a little flatter. Since the entire cast - including LeBlanc - is rooting for a Ross/Rachel ending, it would be unwise of the writers to shove a result they don't like down their throats and then force them to carry it out. I have no doubt they will hit their marks professionally even if they were all written as ax murderers, but I can't help thinking they will do their jobs with more conviction if they agree with the result.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:nONF8.545$[email]...
reason
unable
I've noticed that you have a habit of dismissing everything that goes
against your Ross/Rachel "dream ending" as a fault of the writers, not of
the characters. Everything that happens on the show originates from the
writers, so to say that Ross and Rachel "belong together" any more than
Rachel and Joey "belong together" makes little sense. If you want to assume
that Ross and Rachel bickering only came about because the writers were
unable to write them happy, then I could turn right around and assume that
the only reason Ross and Rachel became a couple before Joey and Rachel is
because the writers felt compelled to deliver on the promise of a
relationship that was teased at throughout the first season. I wonder, had
the writers continued to draw out the romantic tension between Ross and
Rachel and never hooked them up, would you still have such a problem with a
Joey/Rachel finish? Probably not.
In the context of the show, all the bickering between Ross and Rachel
happened. It's as much a part of the show as Marcel and Mr. Treeger. The
motives of the writers don't really enter into the equation if we are simply
speculating as to the show's finale based on what we know about the
characters. By breaking the fourth wall and theorizing why the writers
broke Ross and Rachel up, you are building support for your position that
doesn't really exist in the lives of the characters. And when I say Joey
and Rachel should end up together, it is only because the lives of the
characters dictate that result. Not because I think David Schwimmer and
Jennifer Aniston look cuter together, or because there are 15 million R/R
fans as opposed to 14.9 million J/R fans. All that is irrelevant in my
opinion. Based on where these characters are at in their lives, and the
history they all have together, Ross and Rachel no longer make sense and
Joey and Rachel do. That's where I'm coming from.
Furthermore, when
make
I have to disagree. First of all, it's inaccurate to say that Chandler and Monica were nothing but happy as a couple, because even though they never hurt each other the way Ross and Rachel have, there have been plenty of conflicts between the two of them (TOW Chandler's Work Laugh, TOW Truth About London, TOW Monica's Boots, to name a few). Just because there is always a happy ending with Chandler and Monica doesn't mean that their relationship made the show a failure. That's a purely subjective conclusion and I don't believe it's true.
conflict
dreadful
Hmmm... so how did you know when to start watching again?
Did you also stop watching during February sweeps when Joey was pining
for Rachel?
Most importantly, if you stopped watching the show for two years, are
you really qualified to determine whether Rachel belongs with Ross or Joey?
problem
to
allowed
Joey's
they
And if that was were case, I'd be saying Rachel belongs with Ross. Or, to put it another way, if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.
is
But no matter what happens, you can always argue that it was "forced" by the writers. That's what happens when you have a television show and actors. I don't know where you are getting the idea that its "obvious" that Rachel isn't in love with Joey. I watch the show every week, and I'm a pretty perceptive guy. I never once got that idea. Rachel did turn him down, but meanwhile, in the restaurant afterwards, she continued to hug him until all the other patrons left. And that's where it ended. I think it was left purposely ambiguous as to whether or not she had feelings for him that she was intentionally hiding because it was too difficult to think about with a baby on the way. And, of course, there's the persuasive evidence that when confronted with a ring in Joey's hand, she didn't hesitate long before saying "OK." How exactly is it obvious that Rachel doesn't have romantic feelings for Joey?
But
viewers
so
By your rationale, then, if Ross and Rachel do get back together, hasn't that ending been "forced" by the writers? Why is that less legitimate than what you describe as "forcing" a Rachel/Joey union?
think
to
is
I have to agree with you here. The problem is that the writers have pigeonholed the actors into categories like "Goofy Sidekick" or "Romantic Lead." And until they realize that the actors on the show are versatile enough to play both at once, we're going to get stuck with those labels. But I'm certainly not asking for us to be deprived of LeBlanc's talents as "Goofy Sidekick" for the rest of the final season. What I want is for Rachel and Joey to end up together IN THE END. I would be perfectly happy if the writers sidelined all relationships (besides Chandler and Monica) for the entire season, and focused instead on the comedy. Then, in the series finale in May, go out with one last bang of emotional romance. I'm not saying I want to see a year of Joey/Rachel romance any more than I want to see another whole year of Ross/Rachel romance. The fun is in the chase (or, in Chandler and Monica's case, keeping it secret).
I have no doubt they will hit their marks professionally even if they
That's funny... because for someone who is rooting for Ross and Rachel, LeBlanc sure pulled off his feelings for Rachel with a hell of a lot of conviction. I thought he did a tremendous job in the handful of episodes where he was pining for her.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
Well, then, in that case, it's even and none of them belong together. :-)
Well, no, I say this because the writers on the show have explained this to us quite explicitly. Michael Curtis told us very bluntly, and in person, why they broke up Ross and Rachel. What I am saying is a fact. That IS the reason they don't make them happy anymore.
Another piece of information from the lion's mouth; the writers didn't even think about Joey and Rachel as a couple until this year, and this happened almost by accident. That has been confirmed in interviews.
I wonder, had
a
Actually, Dan, to be honest, if the writers had allowed Ross to be happy with Mona and they hadn't made Rachel give birth to his child, I would not have such a problem with a Joey/Rachel finish.
The
simply
If that's the case, then we are back to a few basic points behind the fourth wall.
1. Rachel has only agreed to Joey's nonexistant proposal because Janice scared her. She does not actually want to marry him. She's afraid Ross is going to run off with miss Big Boobs and the twins.
2. Ross and Rachel are drawn back to each other repeatedly no matter how hard they try to stay apart, and they hurt other people every time they fight it. Mona, Emily, Joshua, Bonnie, Julie have all been casualties. I am not interested in watching Joey enter into this complicated little equation. He's going to get squashed, because deep down, Rachel wants the certainty that Ross will never, ever leave her. He is best out of this, and they need to start talking to each other honestly.
Chandler
Those were very minor squabbles at best.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Most critical analysis I've read says that Rachel's pregnancy brought this show back to life. This is one situation where it's entirely a matter of opinion, but I thought six and seven suffered with too much Mondler.
Well, that's fine. Dan, these are all subjective conclusions all the way around.
When I found out Rachel was pregnant, and Mondler wasn't going to be the driving force of the show anymore.
pining
Nope. Enjoyed every minute of it. Great TV.
Joey?
First of all, that comes really close to being a personal comment. I took great pains to make sure I did not say anything personal about you, and I stated explicitly that I did not want you to think I was flaming you in any way. You owe me the same courtesy and I think you ought to back off. Secondly, I actually stopped watching for about six months. I got sicker and sicker of season six and just walked away during season seven. I was tired of a steady diet of Mondler. I am glad you liked them.
together.
by
that
Well, she turned him down, for one thing. It made her very sad to do it,
but she wasn't Ross' girlfriend. The construction of this past episode, and
indeed, the last several episodes, could not possibly have been less
ambiguous on this point. She kissed Ross, not Joey. She named Emma with
Ross' surname, not Joey's. She told Janice she wanted Ross, not Joey. She
got hurt when she thought Ross was going to go away from her. She cried to
Joey about how Ross was going to leave her. When she thought Joey was
proposing, she didn't squeal with delight or joy. She said a weak, wobbly,
"OK". That's almost as wobbly a proposal acceptance as saying "I take thee,
Rachel" is a wedding vow to Emily.
I watch the show every week, and I'm a
him
Her behavior in the subsequent episodes, however, should have left no doubt.
And, of course, there's the persuasive
Dan, if you don't see that, you aren't as perceptive as you think you are. I've been reading angry, disappointed comments from JOEY supporters who are pissed that he's been reduced to her backup plan. Every single objective review I've read has accurately stated that Rachel said "OK" because she was afraid of being alone. She spent the last five episodes or so kissing Ross, trying to get him to have sex with her, asking him if he's still interested in dating her, commanding that he be at her beck and call.
that
Actually, I think this whole thing is getting pretty forced all the way
around. This cliffhanger was a pretty contrived ending to a terrific
episode; most of the feedback from nonfans is that the obstacle was stupid
and contrived. (Check Wanda's column, and rec.arts.tv.) Dan, honestly,
the most logical and organic ending for that cliffhanger is for Ross to walk
in, see the ring and say, "Hey, Joey, what are you doing with my
Grandmother's ring?" And if Joey is written true to form, he'd say, "It
fell out of your pocket, Ross. You know, bad place to keep a ring. You,
you never know...Uh, I think you two have some stuff to talk about" and then
he'd run out.
Rachel then owes Joey an apology. But you are really stretching to say we have evidence she's in love with him.
Rachel,
If you didn't see the EW interview, Dan, I can't do anything else to convince you. Matt LeBlanc is squarely in the R&R camp, and he says the rest of the cast is as well.
At any rate, we must always remember that debating this is just our hobby. I'm homebound after some minor surgery so I have a little extra time while I can't drive. Nothing we say will actually change the result. Let's keep this fun.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:7HSF8.1138$[email]...
of
I'd agree with you there. That would probably be a better ending, but that one ain't gonna happen. When faced with the choice between Ross and Joey, I go with Joey. If faced with the choice between Ross or Joey and neither, I go with neither. Although that will probably change as this triangle becomes more complicated throughout season nine.
that
is
to
the
I didn't deny that what you were saying was true. All I'm saying is that our debate right now is centering on what's right for the characters, not the motives of the writers. I'm sure that Michael Curtis did find it difficult to keep a romantic relationship interesting. Maybe that's why he's no longer with the show. The current staff has done an excellent job with Chandler and Monica, and had Michael Curtis destroyed that romance the way he destroyed Ross and Rachel, we probably wouldn't be seeing a ninth season.
even
It was also confirmed in interviews that Chandler and Monica happened by accident. Originally, the writers intended to hook up Monica and Joey. Just because the pairing was a lucky accident doesn't make it any less believable, it doesn't mean there haven't been seeds sown in the past (there certainly were with Chandler and Monica), and it doesn't make it any less legitimate.
with
So Ross and Rachel should be together for the child's sake? Didn't Rachel already reject Ross' offer of marriage because she didn't feel it was proper to get married solely for the child's benefit?
Rachel
that
Joey
R/R
fourth
Or in front of it, depending where you're standing. :)
is
And Ross only decided to get flowers and go back to Rachel's side because Phoebe scared him. Many of the character's actions in this show, and throughout all television, are sparked (rightly or wrongly) by brief conversations that illuminate true feelings. That's how TV works, and it has to, because we're not privy to character's thoughts. Even though Rachel may never have wanted to marry but for her conversation with Janice, it's also true that Ross may never have went back to her but for his conversation with Phoebe.
Including each other. And you root for it. If this is the kind of resolution I wanted to see, I'd watch a Tyson fight.
Mona, Emily, Joshua, Bonnie, Julie have all been casualties. I
and
Rachel had Ross once, and look what she did with him. You pointed out some of her greatest moments in your other post on this thread, and I won't belabor the details again. The Rachel that you admittedly hated was brought on, either directly or indirectly, by her relationship with Ross. I'd rather see the series end with her having a chance for happiness with Joey instead of awaiting an eventual letdown with Ross.
plenty
Truth
Maybe because neither one of them is vindictive enough to create major ones.
The critical analysis I read several years ago said that Chandler and Monica's relationship brought the show back to life. The critical analysis I read four months ago said Joey's feelings for Rachel brought the show back to life. But who cares what the critics think? I liked it, you didn't, let's leave it at that and keep the critics out of it.
are
any
Oh please, Claire, stop playing the victim and acting like I just insulted your family. It's a legitimate question. If you missed six months worth of episodes, there may have been some minor details in the Ross/Rachel/Joey situation that you also missed. I know you take my impeachment of your Friends fandom as a flame, but it really isnt. When I look back at the entirety of what has happened between Ross, Rachel, and Joey, I draw the conclusion that she would be better off with Joey. When you look back at the entirety of what has happened, you draw the conclusion that she would be better off with Ross, but you have a six-month gap in your perception. I'm not trying to "get personal" here, Claire, I'm just trying to point out that even though we are both entitled to our opinions, and both opinions are based on what we know of the characters, you know six months less than I do. That's all. Don't take it personally, ok?
You know I do...
she
"forced"
But she was the mother of Ross' child. In my opinion, it was this unfortunate circumstance more than any feelings for Ross that led to her rejection.
The construction of this past episode, and
Big deal. She agreed to MARRY Joey, not Ross.
She named Emma with
Well... it *was* his semen....
Tsk, tsk, Claire... now you're getting personal. Practice what you preach.
are
was
Did they also accurately state that Ross only went back to Rachel because Phoebe convinced him to? I think it's funny that the only reviews you consider "accurate" and "objective" are the ones that jibe with your viewpoints. Direct me to a few of these reviews so I can make my own determination.
She spent the last five episodes or so kissing
Ah, yes... commanding that he be at her beck and call. Clearly, this shows that Rachel is in love with Ross. In much the same way millionaires are in love with their butlers.
her.
to
walk
then
Exactly right. And the cliffhanger ending that was created is not the rather flimsy ending we got, but the ramifications of the fact that Rachel ACCEPTED. It's quite obvious that Joey isn't going to slide the ring on Rachel's finger, marry her, and hope that Ross doesn't notice for the rest of their natural lives. The import of that ending was not to lead us to ask "What's going to happen in the next thirty seconds?" The import of the ending was, "What's going to happen now that Rachel has agreed to marry Joey?" Because no matter what happens when Ross walks back into that room, it isn't going to erase the fact from either Rachel or Joey's mind that when push came to shove, some part of Rachel was comfortable with the idea of marrying Joey. *That's* where the cliffhanger is. I hope Wanda's column picked up on this aspect. Whoever Wanda is.
do
episodes
But the point I was trying to make is that whether or not LeBlanc is in the R&R camp, he did a spectacular job with the J&R scenes, and any personal feelings he has towards the outcome of the show are unlikely to affect his performance with regards to whatever script the writers decide upon.
I
This is fun, Claire... I don't know many people who are as into the
show as I am, and I enjoy having an intellectual debate about these things.
Please keep in mind that nothing I say is intended to be taken personally,
and I'm not responding in an effort to convince you, since I know you're as
stubborn as I am. I'm responding in an effort to defend my position to the
others who happen to be reading this thread.
Recover quickly.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
together. :-)
but
Well, now we have some middle ground! We are both faced with the idea that they are going to have to pull a happy ending out of a hat no matter what they do!
When faced with the choice between Ross and
Fair enough. That should be fun.
person,
The current staff has done an excellent job
the
Well, the current staff did a fabulous job with Chandler and Monica in season five. That was first-rate work. The secret gave them the overriding conflict they needed to keep it crackling very well.
by
I think C&M were developed more gradually. They were certainly being seriously considered by the end of season three; a TV guide article even hinted then that they were coming, and we saw their first really serious flirting in the finale. C&M were two years in the making. The idea of pairing her with Joey came from season two.
(there
But you were saying that Rachel and Joey were being considered as a couple before this year. That's not true. C&M WERE being carefully planned as early as season three. Those seeds were sown on purpose. J&R were not.
and
not
No, the writers of this fictional world should have Ross and Rachel grow up and start being better to each other because they are still in love, have been for a long time, and now they have a child.
Didn't
was
And now she wants him back because SHE wants HIM. And she grabbed Joey as a life preserver.
No, Phoebe did not scare him. Janice, who does not know the Friends very well, told Rachel that Ross would abandon his child, despite evidence we've seen that this was not true about Ben. Phoebe, who knows Ross very well indeed, correctly read his emotional state and urged him to try for happiness.
Many of the character's actions in this show,
Rachel
conversation
OK, you just damaged your own argument here. Janice is an antagonist, self-serving character the Friends don't like and rarely see, and she is in no position to give any of them advice about how to deal with each other because she doesn't know them well enough. Phoebe, who generally comes across as wise in the clutch, did indeed have a conversation with Ross that "illuminated his true feelings".
Nope, we need a pattern change one way or the other for any happy ending of any kind.
the
out
won't
brought
You admitted at the beginning of this thread that the situation really isn't very good either way; as things now stand she should end up with neither. Since that ending cannot happen, there MUST be a pattern change. I think the only pattern change that would free R&R of each other involves being permanently in different cities...or continents...and that won't happen because of Emma. They are going to be hanging out at that coffee house with each other for the rest of their lives, and of those six, Joey is the one MOST likely to break away because he's a film actor and probably ought to go to California. They can't break the pattern of interfering in each other's lives, so Rachel must grow up. She's gotta do that to be a decent wife to anybody, anyway, so why not Ross.
situation
Yep. In season five, they sure did.
back
That began with the pregnancy.
I'm not trying to "get personal" here, Claire, I'm just trying
both
Ah, but what you said was that I didn't have enough information to be *qualified* to make a judgement. I am not *qualified* to be able to evaluate this situation. Yes, I am. As much as anybody else who has been watching this for years, and less so than the cast, all of whom are rooting for Ross and Rachel!
it,
Speculation. We'll never know why she said no.
Dan, you have got watch the finale again. There is absolutely no question whatsoever why she did that. She spends fifty minutes cozying up with Ross, two minutes being freaked out by Janice, two more minutes stressing that she's hormonal and overly emotional, and then wailing that she's afraid of being alone. Then she shakily says "OK" the moment she thinks she's been offered a life raft. They were very, very careful to stress how vulnerable and shaky and scared and lonely she was when she said "OK". It's like running to Paolo's bed the moment she met Julie.
Grin. She didn't have to do it at all. You know you are on shaky ground there.
Rachel
are.
Grin. Just tell me I'm not qualified to make judgements about the characters again. :-)
She did not change his heart; she merely convinced him to examine it. If there had not been anything there, he would not have changed his mind. Ross is not having hormonal swings.
OK. Do a google search and type in "Friends Cliffhanger 2002". If you have access to Newsbank, a newspaper database (possibly available at your local library) try the same search. You should get some newspaper articles in either case that summarize the cliffhanger. If you like, I'll see if I can post a couple.
stupid
honestly,
"It
You,
ask
room,
when
Or that's she's using him. I don't think Joey's going to appreciate that very much. Dan, this is a very sick situation here - Rachel has accepted Joey out of terrified, hormonal desperation, and not for himself. That's a great, big issue, all right. A much larger part of Rachel is comfortable with the idea of marrying Ross.
things.
as
the
Well, good! Because I think we are gonna be at this awhile! :-) You are right; debating with a really good, worthy opponent is a great deal of fun. Glad to see you here.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:EDUF8.1269$[email]...
that
I do not envy the writers the task of ending the greatest sitcom in the history of television. At least they have a full season to tie up the loose ends. But no matter what they do, it's likely to piss off a fraction of the fan base. If they can satisfy 90% of the viewers, they will have scored an amazing victory. I am not dead set against a Ross/Rachel reunion. If a noticeable shift in the attitudes of both Ross and Rachel towards their child and towards one another occurs throughout season nine, to the point where it explains their differences in the past and makes it clear that they are in it for the long haul, I'd be perfectly happy with a Ross/Rachel ending. But that's a big if, and it assumes that the "pattern change" you've often referred to takes place throughout the course of season nine. It's going to take a couple episodes at least as powerful as TOW All The Poker or TOW The Prom Video for me to jump back into the R&R camp. I'm not saying the writers aren't fully capable of pulling it off, and if they do, I'll be the first to admit that I'm rooting for Ross again, just like I did during the first two seasons. Like I've said before, right now, as things currently stand, taking into account the course the show has taken, I don't support a Ross/Rachel reunion because there is no basis to think that it will be a happy, loving relationship.
this
IS
overriding
And TOW Everyone Finds Out is one of the top five episodes ever!
happened
Well, I don't have the inside info you do, but my sources tell me that C & M was hinted at the end of season three to "test the waters," but the plans were scrapped because the effect on the fans, especially in the wake of a long, draining failed romance between Ross and Rachel, couldn't be determined. Their hook-up at the end of season four was a last minute addition to the season finale after realizing that the "I take thee, Rachel..." cliffhanger didn't pack enough punch to leave people talking all summer. So, even though there was tension hinted at between the two since the first season, I don't think it's accurate to say C&M were "two years in the making." While obviously with three male leads and three female leads the possibility of any pairing must cross the writers' minds, there were probably many outside influences that coalesced near the end of season four to lead to the writers taking a risk on that storyline.
less
I don't remember saying Rachel and Joey were considered before this year. While, like I said, there are a limited number of potential relationships between the six Friends, so all of the must have been contemplated at one time or another by the writers, I don't think the writers planned to hook Rachel and Joey up before season eight. It was just the right time to do so, and there is plenty of tension between the two in past episodes to support the notion that the seeds were sown a while ago. Hindsight is 20/20, and I could find you five examples of romantic tension that existed in the past for any male/female pairing you can think of. Except for Ross and Monica. :)
happy
up
Your "ideal" R/R ending consequently depends on the writers taking a specific direction in the future, not your observance of what's gone on in the past. My "ideal" J/R ending depends on the same thing. We are both essentially hoping that the writers see things our way. But there is plenty of support in the past for both of our positions. We may just have to agree to disagree.
Janice
Ross
we've
Phoebe certainly did scare him. She scared him into thinking that it
was "now or never" with Rachel. If she hadn't lit the fire under his ass,
he presumably wouldn't have gone back to her. Poor Phoebe was two seasons
too late. Ross and Rachel were already married once; had Phoebe applied
her pressure back then, maybe she could have stopped the divorce and ended
this whole argument for us.
As an aside, what I expected the writers to do was pull a fast one at
the last minute and reveal that through some unforeseen circumstance, Ross
and Rachel's marriage was never properly annulled. I thought this would
come out in the season finale. Then, not only do they not have to go
through a tedious, forced proposal scene, but we don't have the somewhat
sticky situation of Emma being born out of wedlock.
it
it's
in
that
Knowing Rachel doesn't like Janice, had the advice not truly illuminated her real feelings, she would have been quick to dismiss it. Ross may have been more apt to follow Phoebe's advice regardless of its applicability simply due to the fact that he knows her better, and therefore her advice *must* have been worth heeding.
how
they
of
If this ubiquitous "pattern change" swings in my direction rather than yours, are you going to jump into the Joey/Rachel camp?
Joey
isn't
The bottom line is, barring a pattern change, and assuming the writers won't go for "none of the above," Joey is preferable to Ross. Your ending mandates a pattern change whereas the Joey ending does not. It might make the Joey ending cleaner and clearer, but it wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility that, barring a major pattern change, Rachel ends up with Joey. I think you would agree, however, be beyond the realms of possibility that, barring a major pattern change, Rachel ends up with Ross.
I think
with
go
other's
Over the course of the last few messages, I've told you "why not Ross." Dont make me repeat myself Claire!! :D
and
months
been
rooting
I guess I really hit you where it hurt... your "Friends" knowledge... :)
Just wanted to demonstrate that you don't have a monopoly on rampant speculation. :P
Call me old-fashioned, but you don't accept a proposal because you're afraid. One would think that Rachel, of all people, would be extra careful about accepting a marriage proposal. I know you want to dismiss the acceptance as the product of muddled thinking, or post-natal hormones, or Janice's advice, but the truth is that Rachel already knows what it is to accept a wedding proposal that she's hedging on. This is how the show started. Maybe its wishful thinking on my part, but I hope that the writers would recognize that she must have grown somewhat as a character based on the Barry experience and learned her lesson about half-heartedly agreeing to spend the rest of her life with someone. Blame it on whatever you like, Claire, but the way I see Rachel, she is more careful about marriage than you give her credit for and would not have agreed to marry Joey under any circumstances unless she had previously considered it and thought of it in a positive light. This notion that she said "OK" without thinking or without meaning it really does a disservice to Rachel's character. While this may be the direction the writers plan to go next year, I hope they don't. Rachel has grown up since the first season.
She spends fifty minutes cozying up with Ross,
vulnerable
Hardly a fair comparison. Having a one-night stand and accepting a marriage proposal aren't in the same league. To borrow a phrase from "Pulp Fiction," they're not even the same sport.
I am? You may want to recheck the Richter. I think you're confusing Rachel's obligations to Ross as the mother of his child with her obligations as a former lover and potential husband. By all rights, the baby should have been named "Geller-Green," because Ross made a very important contribution in creating the child. Her use of his last name derived from her obligations as the mother of his child, not an obligation felt out of love or romance.
Nah... I've poked the pit bull with a stick once already, I'm not going to risk doing it again... ;) I'm combative, not stupid.
Ross
What a cop-out. An absolute, utter cop-out, and chances are you knew it the moment you wrote it. You are putting all your eggs in the basket of hormonal imbalance. You want to have your cake and eat it too, Claire... you want to be able to say that Ross only changed his mind about Rachel because he truly had feelings for her, but you don't to concede the similar truism that Rachel would not have accepted Joey's faux proposal if she didn't truly have feelings for him. You have such a low opinion of women to think that hormones can render them incapable of reasoned thought...
together,
way
to
and
the
Rachel
rest
a
Rachel WAS married to Ross!! And she forced him to end it, even though
she was the one who suggested it in the first place!!! Then, after he found
out she was pregnant with his child, when he suggested they get married, she
declined AGAIN!! How exactly is she comfortable with the idea of marrying
him??
Compare that with her reaction to seeing Joey with the ring... she
accepts, without even waiting for him to ASK!!! And you are just going to
pass this off as "hormonal desperation" and be done with it? Now you're the
one on shaky ground, Claire...
personally,
fun.
I don't think you're qualified to be glad to see me here, Claire.... [ducking] :)
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
ending,
what
the
loose
the
an
they
Well, that's fine. There's going to have to be a big shift of some kind for any ending at all to be satisfactory. We seem to agree on that completely - and you know what? I think that's probably the most important thing to agree on. As things now stand, with the way these characters now behave, there is NO happy ending that is both possible and believable. Something MUST change.
But that's a big if, and it assumes that the "pattern change"
Fair enough. I'd expect nothing less.
Agreed! One hundred percent!
that
Ah, there, you told me something I did not know.
all
OK, I thought it was an extension of the stuff they developed with C&M in season three. And they certainly did, deliberately.
in
Well, it took them two years to get it off the ground, they were trying to figure out how to make it fly in season three. They found the right formula in season five.
While obviously with three male leads and three female leads
four
Sure. But they WERE leaning that direction. We saw it several times, and it wasn't very subtle. Monica in a towel, indeed! (Season Three, TOW the Flashback.)
Yep, as well as every male/male combination AND every female/female combination! C'mon, you of all people know Chandler and Monica were special, and more carefully considered.
plenty
agree
OK. Well, that certainly makes sense. We are both hoping for the adjustments will be made that make our scenario likely.
very
No, Dan. Ross had already given up. He was settling. She didn't scare him, she woke him up. She renewed his hope and conviction, and she did it by telling the truth. Review Phoebe's function in this show. Whenever she has given real, serious advice or a notable scolding she has ALWAYS been the voice of the writers. She's the Greek Chorus. There are times, of course, when she wafts around saying the psychic gave her a week to live, but I'm not talking about the comic moments or the sarcastic digs at Chandler. I'm talking the serious stuff. The Evolution thing. The Cat Speech (although I hated it and disagreed with her, she WAS Marta's mouthpiece there.) The "you've got to be civil or this group will break up" speech. She is the group sage. I've got the week off. I'll find you a bunch of examples as I have time.
That's true - but she was not scaring a stranger with horror stories. That's what Janice did. She was counseling a dear friend.
I'm... kinda glad they didn't do that. CONTRIVED.
I thought this would
Aww, we can get through that if her parents get together.
It amplified the fact that Ross had just turned down her romantic overtures and made her feel the hurt of rejection more strongly. What Janice threatened her with, however, has no basis in the Friend's world reality. Ben has a room in Ross' apartment. We saw him be a very active father, especially in the first few seasons. We have a large amount of evidence that Janice was not saying anything valid. Just a few weeks ago we saw Sandra accuse Ross of deserting Rachel, and we saw him make his case to her so well he won her over and sent her home. Janice is not illuminating things; she's distorting them. Janice and Phoebe are mirror images of each other here: the well-meaning friend offering well-considered advice vs. the prattling antagonist disseminating doubt just to hear herself talk. Devil and angel.
therefore
Well, since Phoebe is always the one voicing the point of view of the writers, it was. She was the year of the divorce as well. She told Ross not to lie to Rachel; Rachel wasn't in the right place to be with him then.
than
Well, as you so eloquently said, it will take some very powerful episodes to change my opinion. That was a fair statement for you, it's a fair statement for me. If we DON'T see a pattern change one way or another, I'm not going to be satisfied with the result.
pointed
I reread our beginning discussion again, and realized that I catalogued all of the things Rachel did wrong for one reason; your initial post basically put the onus on Ross, not Rachel. I thought you were unfair to him.
neither.
And that's where we part ways. Barring a pattern change, it's best they don't drown Joey in their maelstrom of dysfunction. The ONLY way Joey and Rachel can work out right now is if he give Ross Emma and moves Rachel with him to California.
Your ending
Oh, yes it does. Rachel's playing a terrifying little game right now, and I don't want Joey in the middle of it.
It might make
of
Joey.
Yes, it would. They might end up together, but she's GOING to hurt him unless she changes the way she behaves. All we need is a new wife for Ross, and Joey's toast.
that,
It is beyond the realms of possibility that this will end well for anybody unless people change the way they treat each other. Period.
one
to
to
Ah, but you didn't really counter what I said. Rachel WILL NOT be an acceptable wife to either of the men unless she grows up and starts thinking about somebody -anybody at all - besides herself ALL THE TIME. She does not deserve Joey right now, and he sure doesn't deserve to get stuck with her mind games.
No, Dan. You said my opinion wasn't valid and I wasn't qualified to have it. That behavior is beneath you.
Grin. Fine with me. Speculation is fun as long as we recognize it when we see it.
question
No, you SHOULDN'T accept a proposal because you are afraid.
But Dan, Rachel's track record is even worse than Ross' in that respect! She accepted Barry, though she didn't love him. She proposed marriage to Joshua just to get even with Ross for proposing to Emily. And SHE was the one who proposed to Ross in Vegas, not the other way around, even though she actually wanted that marriage less than he did. Look at *Rachel's behavior* through the years. You can say she *shouldn't* run into marriage she doesn't really want without thinking, but the God's honest truth of the matter is that she's done it or tried to do it three times. Oops, now four times. Ross at least actually intended to remain married every time he did it.
She I know you want to dismiss the
No, Dan. The truth is that Rachel hasn't learned squat since she ran away from Barry. This is now the fourth time she's done this. One of the things that disappointed me about this cliffhanger was that Rachel regressed to make that decision; she grabbed the first good guy she could find when she felt lost in the dark. That was sad.
This is how the show
writers
to
Yeah, you'd think, wouldn't you? Nope. Four times now. Actually, this has become another crutch the writers have overused and might want to consider retiring. Rachel REALLY needs to grow up.
Blame it on whatever you like,
Nope. Look at her behavior again. Four times. Abandoned Barry, scared away Joshua, drank Ross under the table, and now grabbed Joey as a life preserver. Unfortunately, this is something she does, and she isn't getting any better. Look at her. Really look at her, and ignore how pretty she is. Rachel tries to get married without thinking. She uses men as life preservers when she's scared or her defenses are down. She always has.
and would not have agreed to marry Joey under any
a
without
Nope. Now you are the one only seeing what you want to see.
While this may
In some ways, yes. But not in this case.
of
been
"Pulp
OK. We are back to Joshua then. That is exactly the same sport. And, of course, to Ross himself. Two proposals Rachel herself has uttered without meaning them.
ground
Well, your last arguments have been much weaker than the formidable challenge you posed earlier in the day, and this was even weaker than most.
I think you're confusing
obligations
That's not a particularly common custom. It does happen, and it was nice that she did it, but actually, this is not what unmarried couples usually do. She went the extra mile for him in that scene. It was a tribute to him and his function in her life, not a legal contract.
going
:-)
No. You are flailing now, Dan. Phoebe and Janice are not equally reliable sources of information. Ross has been putting Rachel ahead of everything else in his life all year long, to the point where he mistreated Mona; Phoebe just made him focus on why he was behaving like that. She informed him of what she was watching in his own behavior. Janice was making wild guesses about Ross based on observations of entirely different people.
Well, no. Hormones were one part, but only one part. Ross turned her down, and she was on the rebound. She DOES make bad decisions on the rebound. We've seen it repeatedly. We saw Janice spout poison. Joey, unfortunately, confirmed Janice's nasty little gossip by not defending Ross; Rachel was looking to him to reassure her about Ross, and bless his heart, he didn't know what to say except to offer his own support. And one more thing, Dan...one more thing that blows your argument out of the water. If Rachel had not been desperate and needy, not flailing around in fear, she would have waited until Joey *actually proposed* before she gave a warm and happy, "Yes." Joey didn't propose to her. She was looking for something, anything, that would make her feel better. She saw Joey with a ring, and instead of waiting for him to speak or asking him what he wanted, like a self-possessed person would do in that situation, she jumped to a desperate conclusion and put him in a terrible situation. Joey told her he was falling in love with her three months ago. She gave him no hope, no chance, not a single reason For her to assume like that that he came to the hospital prepared to propose marriage the very day she bore Ross' daughter does NOT indicate somebody who is thinking rationally.
And what came out was a very wobbly, uncertain "OK". Think about how Chandler and Monica proposed to each other - well, OK, the last one was horrifically overblown, but anyway, they gave their assent with very direct enthusiasm. We've seen Ross propose to Emily - heck, we saw Joey propose to Rachel and Phoebe on the same day! Phoebe took him up on it with very genuine enthusiasm, not that weak and frightened 'OK". That was not the way a woman accepts the man of her dreams in a sitcom. She was grabbing a life raft which wasn't even really there.
You want to have your cake and eat it too, Claire...
similar
Nope. Because that view is, to my mind, almost entirely invalid. I think your disgust for Ross - and that is what your initial essay revealed - has really clouded your judgement here. Your vision of how Rachel makes decisions and her actual track record do not match.
You have such a low opinion of women to
No, I have such a low opinion of RACHEL that I'm glad her latest
irresponsible foray can at least be blamed partly on Janice and on hormones
and not on being a really selfish, immature little twit who has needed to
come to terms with her behavior for four years now. By the way, I've done
the labor thing twice myself. I absolve her of all blame for everything she
screamed at Ross during delivery! :-) But they set up the hormones thing
very carefully. They punctuated it with her admission that she cried over
not being able to put on her shoes. They underscored how vulnerable and
irrational she was being. That was in the script. It was on purpose. And,
unfortunately, she's done this kind of thing before.
that
accepted
That's
comfortable
though
found
she
Her attitude appears to have changed quite a bit since she moved in with him. She began trying to woo him a couple of episodes ago, and they have shared several genuine kisses. However, I will amend my statement. Right now, Rachel wants to be Ross' girlfriend. She told Janice that and she tested the waters with Ross about it twice now. You have to deliberately ignore several conversations not to realize that.
But Dan... to assume he was proposing when they'd never even been a couple was by definition a desperate action! Especially since she'd been crying her eyes out over fear that Ross was going to leave her! That whole conversation before the ring was almost entirely about Ross - how scared she was, how Janice told her Ross was going to abandon her when he had his own life. It was NOT about Joey's feelings until he tried to comfort her. But for her to think he came to the hospital prepared to propose given their recent history? Dan, are you thinking straight? She's chased Ross around for five straight episodes, kissing him, trying to seduce him, talking to strangers about wanting Ross back. Her friends are meeting in corners out of her earshot because they don't understand why Ross is rejecting Rachel. Joey thinks Ross is crazy. HE knows where he stands! Everybody and his brother knows that Rachel wants Ross. During all this, she ignores Joey entirely unless he offers her a chance to get her name in print or a ticket to a party. But on the night she was wailing because she thought Ross would leave her, when Joey offered her support, Rachel behaved as she did when Ross got engaged to Emily. She grabbed a guy to marry as a rebuttal. And you think she's been in love with Joey all this time and jumped at the chance to marry him.
I expected better from you than vison this blurry and an argument this poor.
Now you're the
Nope. I'm sorry, Dan. You may argue that the future will change things. Most good pro R&J arguments I've read do. It may, but you have absolutely no valid case here at all based only on what we've seen. This argument is as wobbly as somebody suggesting she asked Joshua (or Ross) to marry her because she was in conciously in love with them, ready for commitment, at the time that question was asked.
I'm supposed to argue the other side for a bet tomorrow, Dan. It's a long story. I won't be able to get back to this thread until at least Tuesday. It's very hard for me to argue in favor of Joey when I've just crystalized so much in my head exactly why Joey is not Rachel's answer.
((Apologies to abrahammy... I meant to reply to group and not directly to you...))
I just wanted to weigh in with the fact that I don't think Barry should be included when discussing Rachel's past history with marriage. I hardly think it's fair to say that Rachel half-heartedly accepted Barry's proposal even though he didn't love him, or that she abandoned him. Barry essentially abandoned Rachel first, by sleeping with her Maid of Honor and abusing Rachel's trust. I think if he had remained faithful Rachel would've been able to have a happy, fulfilling married life with him. It's not fair to fault her for not marrying a man who had no respect for her and rejected the marriage vows before they were even married.
Kate ----- Original Message ----- From: abrahammy
But Dan, Rachel's track record is even worse than Ross' in that respect! She accepted Barry, though she didn't love him.
Have to cut in here. Claire, I know you saw the "Wise Woman Phoebe" in this scene but I did not. Telling Ross who has just experienced the birth of his child that he needs to examine his feelings for the mother was not the brightest thing to do. He is not in the right emotional frame of mind to make any sensible decisions or come to any proper conclusions about his feelings. Any conclusions that are made at that moment come from an unbelievable emotional high one experiences with the birth of a child. True, he does have feelings for Rachel and he will always do. They are very good friends and share way too much history. Should he chose to act on those feelings after a few months of raising their daughter together, I'll give them my blessing but not immediately. What Phoebe did was push the man off a cliff blindfolded.
You say Phoebe knows Ross very well. Yes, she does but where was this woman of wisdom when Ross desperately wanted to make his marriage work in the beginning of season six? She could have cajoled Rachel into giving the marriage a go, if she truly believed that these two are destined to be together by universer and what not.
I think Phoebe was not in any position to give sensible advice on the situation especially since her own feelings are mixed. She did want to keep one of the triplets for herself. Who's to say that she wasn't feeling the pangs of motherhood being there in that hospital looking at all those babies? Phoebe, who didn't think that Ross and Rachel's relationship could work when they got married, now thinks it can because there is a baby in the mix? Perhaps, her own dreams of an ideal family cloud her judgement. She should have kept her mouth shut and offered this invaluable advice for the November sweeps.
Have to agree with Dan here. Season seven saw a lot of growth in Rachel's character. Sure, there was the odd detour with the whole "Tag" business but generally we saw a nicer Rachel who has accomplished a lot professionaly. The scene in 801 showed her as being ready to take on the ultimate challenge of motherhood. She wasn't the same daddy's girl we saw in 101. (Of course, you wouldn't know that because you didn't see most of season seven. This is what Dan meant when he said you can't make a proper judgement.)
Now, enter Ross as the father. She is the same Princess Bitch who is spoiled and clueless. Kinda makes you wonder. We saw Ross's character take a dive while the Joey/Rachel story was setup and then we see him being resurrected only to portray Rachel as the selfish bitch. They had to do that to make him look good. They had to make Ross look like a jerk for the mass audience to accept Joey as a potential match for Rachel. Don't be surprised if we see Mental Gellar in season nine if they decide on a J&R relationship.
<snip>
I think you're confusing
She probably knows the hard time Ross had with convincing Susan and Carol to include Geller in Ben's name. It was a wonderful gesture. A gesture that reflects her frienship to Ross and how much this group of people mean to each other. She didn't do it because she is in love with Ross.
OK, that is a difference of opinion. Thanks for saying you disagree and explaining why rather than calling my view a cop-out.
I'd say in that case she was aware of Rachel's attitudes and did not feel that Rachel was "in that place" at the moment. She sees an emotional opportunity for them than was not there before. In any negotiation, timing is a pretty critical element to success.
Grin. We could call it hormones. :-) Also, genuinely, many people are better at evaluating a situation which they both know well but which does not directly affect them than at evaluating their own problems. That's why everybody needs to have some good friend to ask for advice.
Phoebe, who didn't think that Ross and Rachel's
So are you predicting scenes for the future? :-)
Yes, and just a few weeks ago we saw her freak out because she didn't know what she was doing; it was Ross' experience and his pledge to stay with her and help her which appeased Sandra, calmed Rachel down, and saved the day.. At any rate, this has nothing to do with how Rachel tends to try to get married. We have yet to see any scene which clearly indicates *romantic* attachment to Joey for any motivation, and we've seen several with Ross. We have seen her be a more assertive career woman as of late, but we do know she has tried to jump into poorly considered marriages several times in the past. Without more - heck, ANY - concrete evidence that she really is *in love* with *Joey* and that she has actually been thinking about making a life with him prior to that particular moment, I cannot regard her acceptance as being any more well thought out than the marriage deals she's considered before. This proposal is abortive and it isn't going to work. If Rachel is to fall in love with Joey, they are going to do a better job of showing that particular progression - just as, as Dan said, if R&R are going to get together, they are going to have to show a convincing progression to solving their underlying problems.
seven. This is what Dan meant when he said you can't make a proper judgement.)
I saw a couple of her episodes with Tag in syndicated reruns because Tennant kept asking me to. Let's see, she hired a man to be her assistant over more qualified applicants because he was cute. Then she began dating her direct subordinate. Then, she sent him a pornographic evaluation which was confiscated by her boss. Then, on the day they were up all night, she lost an important report, blamed it on him, found it in her own desk, and tried to slip it into his desk so she could continue to blame him rather than herself.
Boy, that's really impressive stuff. If she worked in the same place I do, she'd have been fired at least twice. Note that it is her *romantic* behavior that is most in question here.
I've also seen her behavior in all of season eight, Priya. She's certainly doing much better than she did in Season One, but I don't see a huge difference from Season Six.
Yep. Now you see why I keep breaking the fourth wall and grousing about the writing. They aren't consistent about character development, and they rarely look beyond the next few episodes for how they wish to manipulate the audience. That's why both Phoebe and Joey end up being Swiss Army knives, which drives me absolutely up the wall. Next season they will try to manipulate the audience to agree with whatever conclusion they decide to explore, and some of us are going to rightly feel we've been led down a merry chase and given poorly planned red herrings no matter what happens. BOTH sides will have reason to grouse about that. This is a complete mess.
They
Yes, Priya, I know. You can COUNT on being right about this one. Believe me, that's one of the reasons why I'm pulling for R&R on a technical level. If we are in a situation where Joey and Ross have to fill the roles of Romantic Lead and Goofy Comic Side Character, Joey is going to be a LOT more fun to watch in the goofy role than Ross is, especially since Joey just inadvertantly confirmed Rachel's fears that she's going to be abandoned and has just accidentally proposed to Rachel on the day Ross' daughter was born while using Ross' family heirloom. Mental Geller in this situation, with a genuine reason for feeling betrayed, is going to be absolutely unwatchable. You want to watch him? Isn't hating Mental Geller the reason so many people stopped supporting Ross in favor of Joey? Honey, *I* don't want Rachel marrying Mental Geller. Mental Geller is bad for this show. He's painful to watch and very rarely funny. I want him gone.
nice
usually
him
Well, that's just a matter of opinion on both sides. I agree that it was a wonderful gesture, and your analysis of this is better than Dan's was. We will just have to see how it pans out.
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:1ltG8.645$[email]...
I take this as a not-so-subtle dig at me. Claire, you have to understand, the reason I accused you of copping out is because you applied similar logic to similar situations but reached different conclusions in order to continue to justify your position. Additionally, it's quite unfair for you to imply that I never explained why I disagreed with you, since we went back and forth on several lengthy posts, and I spent lots of time and Usenet disk space to explain exactly why I accused you of copping out.
timing
Good point. Of course, the "timing" to which you refer has nothing to do with the ebb and flow of Ross and Rachel's relationship, but rather the ebb and flow of the network schedule. Had Phoebe's heart-to-heart not taken place during the last moments of the season finale, Ross wouldn't have turned around in time to make a cliffhanger out of it. Phoebe's last-minute intervention in the relationship, as opposed to her "laissez faire" attitude prior to that (even to the point of hooking Ross up with her friend Abby), is more attributable to dramatic license than any rational explanation that falls in line with Phoebe's character. Jumping back behind the fourth wall, Priya is still right. Phoebe's sudden burst of involvement in the Ross/Rachel saga is more characteristic as a consequence of her sympathy for the baby. Had she truly felt Ross and Rachel belonged together, independent of the child, she certainly would have said something during the pregnancy instead of tactlessly waiting until afterwards.
her
day..
Good thing you noticed, I was just about to point it out. :)
We have yet to see any scene which clearly indicates *romantic*
What about the extended hug after Joey's disclosure back in February?
And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that the last few episodes clearly
indicate Rachel's *romantic* attachment to Ross. She needs him as a father,
and obviously he would be the safe choice with whom to settle down, but I
think you're confusing Rachel's romantic feelings for Ross in the past with
the very human (and very maternal) sense of attachment she has felt towards
him in the closing episodes of season 8. At this point, it is impossible to
tell whether Rachel truly feels rekindled romance for Ross, or whether she
wants to be with him because it's safe, it's customary, it's expected, and
it's better for her child. All good reasons to be with someone, but reasons
not to be confused with true love.
We
the
she's
of
going
to
There's still a full season left, and whatever happens in the end, there will be substantial progression. If I were you, I wouldn't dismiss the proposal as abortive just yet. Even though the ring belongs to Ross, as things stand right now, the acceptance belongs to Joey. There was a meeting of the minds between Rachel and Joey, and as of right now, they are formally engaged. I know you can't stand it, and I know it goes against everything you want to see in the series finale. But right now, facts is facts. Rachel and Joey are engaged. We've got all summer to speculate how things will progress when September rolls around, but the starting point for the discussion should be this: Ross had Rachel, Ross lost Rachel, Joey professed love to Rachel, Rachel had baby, Rachel agreed to marry Joey. To be continued.
season
Tennant
To clarify, this is exactly what I meant when I said Claire wasn't the best qualified to make a proper judgment. At first, she lashed out at me in anger, but it's nice to see that she's at least tacitly conceded I was right.
Let's see, she hired a man to be her assistant over more
direct
lost
place I do,
Her behavior with Tag pales in comparison to the depths of immaturity she reached in her relationship with Ross. Considering you're lobbying for another try with Ross, I figured you *liked* this Rachel... :)
the
the
Good analogy, but Ross and Rachel are Swiss Army knives, as well. It's just that you prefer one carving to the other.
Next season they will try to
mess.
You use "manipulate" so negatively. This is what the writers are paid to do. I enjoy being manipulated every Thursday night. Occasionally, I'm let down, but only if I'm not manipulated professionally enough. "Friends" has been television's finest puppeteer for eight years, and you ought to know that going in. If you plan to grouse, that's your option, but don't grouse about having your strings pulled. You assumed that risk when you picked up the remote.
level.
more
and
born
a
unwatchable.
people
There's a happy medium to all this: Ross from the first season. He wasn't "Romantic Lead" Ross, he wasn't "Mental Geller" Ross, he was just regular old Ross, the sensitive, somewhat dorky guy who we all fell in love with because we could sympathize with him. I'd love to see this Ross back. It's not going to happen if he ends up back with Rachel.
to
a
LOL... well, maybe, but then, mine was better than YOURS was...
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
If I were you, I wouldn't dismiss
as
meeting
formally
Hold on there! Did I miss something? Doesn't there have to be an
*actual* proposal for there to be an acceptance? How does him holding
a ring-that doesn't even belong to him-equal a proposal of marriage
(with a shocked look on his face, no less)?
"Laurie" wrote in message news:I9DG8.930$[email]...
Ross,
everything
She said yes... and we all know that he would love to marry her. It's not the ring that makes the marriage... its the desire to get married, which right now they both have.
This is absolutely ridiculous. She said, ".....Ok." Wow, what a desire to get married!! Again, she was freaked out by Janice that she'd be raising Emma alone. This does not indicate that she wants to marry him. She clearly *settled* for him, out of fear.
Wow, can't argue with that kind of logic. ;) In a way, you're right. This is Joey, who doesn't think that women ought to raise babies alone (802). He did propose to her then and he wasn't even in love with her then. But since all he said was, "Oh my God", can we really take that as a marriage proposal? :) Oh wait, Rachel did. LOL.
You should check out Tennant's reviews when they come out. I'm guessing he'd look at it the same way you have. :)
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
We do? We know he's in love with her. Is that the same thing?
which
No, it's the intention to get married. Which only Rachel has, and not for the right reasons. By the way, Ross and Rachel both apparently had the desire to get married in Las Vegas, but that sure wasn't much of a marriage.
Speaking of Vegas - I seem to recall that Chandler and Monica, unquestionably in love, had a very tender moment where they made a wager about marriage. (My favorite C&M scene ever, by the way.) They saw R&R come out and changed their mind for an entire year. A decision to get married depends on much more than love. They had several more hurdles - including the very big issue of Richard- to get through before they were prepared to make the plunge. Love and intention to marry are NOT the same thing. (And the love lives of millions of people lead to amazing arguments because of this particular conclusion.)
"abrahammy" wrote in message news:91_G8.203$[email]...
facts.
holding
marriage.
Ross and Rachel were both heavily intoxicated.
Love and intention to marry are NOT the same
arguments
I completely agree. I wish you had read my fanfic, Claire, since I tried to stress this point. However, I do think that Joey's feelings for Rachel include the desire to get married, and even though it's never been explicitly stated on the show, I've drawn that conclusion, rightly or wrongly, from his actions.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
to
a
are
I just don't know if we can make the jump from Joey having feelings of love for Rachel to actually wanting to marry her. I'm not sure he would *against* it. I just don't think he has ever thought that far ahead with it.
"David Buehrle" wrote in message news:ShyI8.6858$[email]...
was
an
marriage
married,
love
In my opinion, for Joey to finally fall in love with somebody means that he is ready to settle down with them. Joey has had plenty of relationships with women, and for him to use the "L" word is a HUGE step. The way I see it, for someone like Joey, admitting love and wanting to get married are practically equivalent. Joey wouldn't use the "L" word lightly...
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
belongs
they
against
her.
with
that
relationships
Well, that's true, it is a big step for Joey to use the L word. I still think you must take great care to distinguish between being willing to give your heart to somebody and being willing to make a lifelong commitment to them. If Joey is ready to marry her right now, without spending any time at all as her boyfriend, Joey is very unwise. I do not think Joey is prepared to marry Rachel; remember, he did not actually propose to her, and his facial expression was one of alarm at the misunderstanding, not joy
On Tue, 28 May 2002 12:55:13 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:
I think there is a huge difference between Joey in 802 and 824 here. Joey in 802 was prepared to get married to Rachel or Phoebe in order to help them out, but he wasn't in love with Rachel back then. But the situation in 824 is totally different. Joey has fallen in love since 802, and that is the most significant part. If we are to believe what Joey said in 816, he had never really been in love before he fell head over heels in love with Rachel. That means that he might have changed his reasons for getting married, and he might not want to jump into marriage as easily as he wished to do in 802. Having said that, seeing that he admitted that he was still in love with Rachel in the beginning of 823, he'd probably love to actually be together with "his perfect woman." But still, I think it's very unlikely that we'll see Joey getting married in the near future. He needs to get over Rachel first.
My point was that Rachel has grown since the first season. In 803, she didn't think that she needed a man around to raise her child. It's too bad that they decide to make her totally clueless for the return of Sane Geller.
I'll tell you how I saw it.
818 : Lying to a bunch of people she doesn't know about a wedding and getting kicks and a lot of cash out of doing so. Foreshadowing or Romance: None whatsoever. This was just another fun game.
820: She is scared out of her wits about the responsibilities of raising a baby. Ross promises to be there for her. Of course, Ross was going to help her; he is the father of the child. We don't expect anything less from him, especially since he is living with her and we've often seen him complain in the past about how he missed on many things with Ben.
821: She is suddenly jealous because an attractive woman finds Ross interesting. She makes him promise not to date and to be at her beck and call. Foreshadowing or Romance: This is characteristic of Rachel to pull Ross's strings whenever there's some new woman in his life who is worthy enough for Rachel throw fits over. The thought that she is at home alone while Ross is having fun is to hard to bear, not because she's loves him but she's too self involved. And hello, this is Ross, she's got him trained better than a puppy.
822: She is past her due date and still no sign of labor. Doctor advises to try sex. Let's not forget, it was her desperation to have sex that brought them to the present situation. After months of no sex and dates because of the pregnancy, here's a chance to have sex and get her baby out. Any repurcussions can always be explained away. "Ross, we only did because the doctor suggested it." The kiss in the apartment was because of emotions running high due to the impending birth of their child.
823/824: They kissed after the baby was born only proves what I said in the last line of the above para. Janice scares Rachel into thinking that she can't make it on her own. She quickly says that things are happening between her and Ross? This is why I said that just after birth of the daughter is not a time for a reunion. She is not in the frame of mind to think straight, which is why she accepts Joey's proposal so quickly. Yes, I know I'm supposed to argue for J&R. I don't think that Rachel is in love with Joey or has any romantic feelings for him yet. Its not what happened in the hospital but how these characters are going to evaluate the events in later episodes that is going to be the deciding factor.
Very true. Speaking of true love, NBC's promos for the finale claimed the "first true love" on the show was Chandler and Monica's. I guess that's the way TPTB see it. Marta Kauffman's interview is very indicative of a J&R story and she doesn't think R&R clicked. :)
I couldn't agree more.
Er.. formally engaged Dan? Joey isn't going to go along with the misunderstanding and he didn't even propose. But this is going to make him that she is open to a relationship with him. I want to see what he will do about that.
I've already said those aren't the episodes that made the cut. Everyone was so relieved when Tag was gone. You have to see the episodes where she is interacting with Joey. 713: The One Where Rosita Dies. Oh, you'll find a lot of things from your essay are in TOW Joey's Award. :)
I agree. They usually do a pretty convincing job. Sometimes it has fallen flat, like all the R&R tension which really was too little too late.
That's true. Ross is going to be unbearable whether or not he is with Rachel. But more so, if he is with her. I all depends on how Ross takes a J&R relationship. If he is anything like what we saw in 816, then you've got nothing to worry. They could just bring back Mona and have Joey/Rachel live across Ross, so he has a lot of access to Emma.
Well, just as long as we are clear that naming of the child was not foreshadowing or romantic in any way.
"Dan Silverstein" wrote in message news:[email]...
I consider Janice to be a much less reliable and respectable source of advice than Phoebe is. Therefore, I regard reaction to her discussion with more respect than reaction to Janice's discussion. That's not a cop-out; it is merely a different interpretation than yours.
Additionally, it's quite unfair
You explained your arguments thoroughly. Your cop-out accusation indicates to me that we are on such completely different pages regarding this point that we have absolutely no way to see each other. Both of us apparently find the other's view absolutely in la-la land, and that is where it must remain. There is no debate if there is absolutely no common ground at all.
feel
to
Bingo! But now you are breaking down the fourth wall!
last-minute
attitude
that
Absolutely. So is Janice's mouthing off, and Rachel's sudden terror that she will be abandoned after expressing strength and confidence all year. Now you see why I end up breaking down the fourth wall; we know a lot of things happen as shockers and sweeps stunts rather than as organic events. What we are left with now is a difference of opinion about which conversation was the genuine indicator of the way the show is actually inclined to go. Unfortunately for you, *if* I am right, the whole Joey thing is a sweeps stunt from beginning to end; that's why it so carelessly disappeared at 818 and stayed gone until the cliffhanger.
for
independent
I think, jumping back behind the fourth wall, that Phoebe could have waited until now because she saw how huggy and kissy and affectionate Ross and Rachel were being to each other since they had moved in together. She felt Rachel was in the right place.
This is a point on which we can either tear down the fourth wall and acknowledge the real, technical reasons for this timing, or speculate for fun on what the characters may or may not be thinking. The only difference is that I am taking Phoebe at her word; she says she wants them back together because they belong together. You are saying that she has unspoken motivations. That may turn out to be true, but right now my interpretation is what's in the script.
I think a woman can be heartbroken that she's hurt her best male friend by being able to return his romantic affections. If Rachel was in love with Joey I would have liked to have seen her casting an occasional wistful eye at him between 816 and now; that's more a technical note than anything else. If Rachel's in love with Joey, they are guilty of bad storytelling. (Not that this is beyond the realm of possibility)
clearly
father,
with
towards
to
reasons
I think this very valid concern will be addressed in the opening episodes of next season. It is a crucial point and needs to be worked out. I WILL say, in all fairness, that while the script has Ross admitting he is still in love with Rachel, Rachel has only admitted that she wants Ross and is afraid to be alone. She thinks Ross does not want her. Then she agrees to marry Joey
Well, we certainly agree on that. We've got a ridiculous little muddle right now, and nobody's in any condition to marry anybody.
Note something; Phoebe did not tell Ross to marry Rachel. Judy did. Phoebe told him to restart their romance. We don't actually know if Ross intended to propose to Rachel. We know he meant to give her flowers, and probably to tell her he loved her.
as
meeting
formally
Uh, no. Dan, Joey didn't propose to Rachel. He told her he would support her. He went into Ross' pocket. He found the ring. He was stunned, taking in this new piece of information. He showed it to her. She answered a question which had not even occurred to him to ask. Rachel thinks they are engaged, but Joey has not accepted her acceptance of something he didn't ask for or intend to give. If you can't understand the difference, I can't help you.
Not if Joey doesn't agree to this. They don't actually have a meeting of the minds on that. She's engaged and he's alarmed. The last expression I saw on Joey's face was one of shocked confusion, not joy of her acceptance. He was not smiling. This argument just ain't gonna fly.
We've got all summer to speculate how things
To
Ross had Rachel, Ross lost Rachel. Joey professed love to Rachel. Rachel had baby. Rachel told half several people she wanted Ross. Ross said no. Rachel told Joey that she has agreed to marry him.. Joey, who has not actually proposed marriage, has just gone into an advanced state of shock. AND...
It's Ross' ring. Joey realizes this. That is a much bigger detail than you are giving it credit for being. This is a mammoth betrayal of friendship ending proportions if Joey goes along with it. One of Joey's bottom-line, bedrock principles is that you just don't go around wooing your best friend's beloved; he put Chandler in a box about it. Joey's reaction is now in doubt; in a nutshell, he has not agreed to marry Rachel at all.
ou didn't see most of
the
in
Yeah, the evidence I came up with didn't change my assessment of the
stituation one iota; in fact, it gave me more ammunition. Tennant asked me
to watch the season seven episodes because of several places where he
thought I would enjoy Ross' behavior. You told me, basically, that I didn't
have the right to debate you, or that anything I say can be dismissed
completely out of hand. Listen. Everybody has the right to debate
anybody. The Internet is currently full of J&R fans who only began
watching a year or so ago, and other people who only watched the old
episodes once and don't have the ridiculously encyclopedic knowledge of this
silliness that you and I do. They are entitled to speak their mind without
any impediments or people telling them they aren't qualified to speak. Now,
if their lack of information damages their argument, that may make them more
inclined to lose debates, but it will be because the argument itself had a
fact-based hole in it. A person does not lose a debate because somebody
says "AH! I've seen more episodes than you have!" They win or lose a
debate on how well they present the facts they do have, how appropriate
those facts are to the discussion, and whether or not the demonstratable
holes in their knowledge indicate that they have missed something. Dan, I
haven't missed squat about Rachel's maturity level. You told me that I
wasn't qualified to see what a mature woman Rachel had become, but in fact
since I've seen all of season eight, I'm pretty current on her present
behavior, which is what I used to guage her present reaction. And my
analysis of the Tag situation seems to indicate that Rachel's still quite
capable of very bad romantic behavior.
You can't dance around my arguments by saying I'm unqualified. You are going to have to dig through them.
for
But Dan... I thought you began this debate by saying Ross was basically the problem. If we look at how she treated Joshua, Tag, Paul and others, then Rachel is also part of the problem. And Joey is going to solve this... how? No. RACHEL needs to change the way SHE treats people, or this is going to continue.
By the way, Joey isn't a knight in shining armor here. He's a tabula rasa. We have seen him be an absolute womanizing jerk to the succession of women who have wandered into his bed, but I don't dwell on that when considering him because I think the fact that he may now be in genuine love makes him a wild card.
knives,
It's
OK. Then we must again tear down the Fourth Wall. All of the characters are inconsistently written to accomodate whatever whims or designs the writers have at any particular moment. Mental Geller is one of those whims. As Priya very astutely pointed out, he cleared up in time for the cliffhanger, and whether or not he remains sane depends largely on which of the two men the writers will try to make us pull for in the fall. You bet your life I prefer the carving of Sane Ross to Mental Geller. I don't think very many people really enjoy MG at all.
paid
I'm
"Friends"
Yes, I see your point there. You are convinced that R&J belong together. Will you feel let down if R&R are reconciled in a manner that you find insufficiently convincing? I think they have arranged a situation where it's going to make any ending which makes all six characters really and truly satisfied rather unconvincing - but if a Friend ends up really hurt and shattered, that will also be unsatisfying. Unless, of course (and some people are of this opinion) that Ross deserves to be given a broken and bitter ending. I don't think they can write a believable R&J ending that doesn't absolutely destroy Ross. At 816, they could have. Not now.
love
back.
I don't think it's going to happen if she marries Joey, either. It could have happened at 816, but they pulled Ross back into the fire.
And don't forget that at the beginning of the sixth season, when Phoebe accuses Ross of "re-loving" Rachel, and Ross is trying to get Rachel to move in with him, it is Joey who "protects" Ross and tells Rachel to move in with him, not Ross.
Dan
"David Buehrle" wrote in message news:rolH8.579$[email]...
"manhn" wrote in message news:fAJF8.99719$[email]...
a
that
I think anyone worth being in a relationship with would have been willing to read an 18 page, front and back, heartfelt emotional letter about the said relationship. It takes a lot more effort to write what you think than for someone to read what their partner thinks. Communication is not always clear and concise. The key is being willing to listen and hear what the other person is saying no matter how long it takes.
Number one she was ready and everything but trying to decide what shoes to wear tossed Ross over the edge. He didn't seem to get too mad at Phoebe when she suggested black shoes with strappies. Number two not every women is as perfectly prepared for a black tie event as you may think. She had a lot of nice clothes to chose from yet she had a hard time making up her mind.Rachel didn't purposley dawdle that is a very lame thing to say in an effort to support R&R.
It is when you say Joey didn't have to deal with Rachel in this situation. There were five people there and Ross freaked out on one. What does that tell you?
Yes he should have left her there like she wanted.
No its saying that if Ross had a little bit of a backbone he could have yelled right back at Dr. GreenE.
No there is nothing wrong with the letter. I don't see how you can use something as stupid as a letter she wrote him for a counterpoint to a r/j relationship. She was simpley trying to get everything out in the open and examine previous relationships to see if this would work.
It really doesn't matter what she thought the idea is she cared more about Ross' feelings than how she felt. She would not have helped him start a furthur relationship with Emily if she didn't think she could handle it. I also think that r/e were great before we saw that bitchy side of emily, but I think she had a right to get annoyed.
Ross had choices and Joey has chocies. He never had to break up with his girlfriends for Rachel. He was his choice.
Yes, but Ross shoudln't think that his friends will never hang out with Rachel again. They were both wrong. So let's leave this one out.>
He still lied about getting the annulment. He could have simply said "rachel I told you how I feel about an annulment so if you want one you take care of it" I see no reason for his selfish lie. You cannot justify that.
convinced her to move out Ross knew nothing about how the pregnacy was treating her. It was probably Joey who ran out for late-night food cravings. He gave up his beer for her and took care of her when she was having a scary moment. Ross was at the movies. I know I cannot blame him for having a social life, but in the beginning to was all Joey. It was also Joey who fixed the living arrangements. Ross never suggested living together. He suggested marriage and stopped at that when Rachel said no.
She was cautious too.
No, but Emily had a right to think that because Ross said Rachel's name at the wedding and he went off on their honeymoon with Rachel.
She hasn't done that YET and who knows what is yet to come.