Friends S8-17 - dancing in the dark

Hero or fall guy?

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817 "TOW the Tea Leaves"

The girls are hanging out in Central Perk, drinking tea, so Phoebe reads their tea leaves for them, even though she's not done that in years - partly because her predictions were too accurate, but mostly because the tea gives her the trots. Accordingly, Monica faces either promotion or a violent death, and as head chef she can't be promoted; while Rachel will either have a baby, or make a scientific discovery.

However, Phoebe's fate is that she will meet the man of her dreams, and - she checks her leaves - really soon. Fourteen seconds later, Ross arrives to ask the girls if they have seen his faded salmon shirt, but while Monica & Rachel discuss his pink shirt, Phoebe totally fails to realise the significance of what just happened.

About a minute later, Phoebe spots a dweeb across the coffee house, whom she's seen around for the last couple of weeks, so she assumes her dream guy must be him. When she introduces herself, the guy says his name is Jim Nelson, and immediately asks her out to dinner.

Yet as soon as their date begins, Jim turns out to be the most hideous sleaze-ball. Phoebe tries to give him the benefit of the doubt, since the universe wanted them to get together, but she's forced to give up when Jim tells her about his PhD - errr, his PHD...

But the next day, Phoebe visits a dry cleaners, where she meets a handsome man named Parker, who immediately informs her that she is incredibly beautiful, and declares that they were fated to meet...

                             ---o0o---

It's now some days after Joey told Rachel that he was in love with her, but she has to go looking for him because the poor guy has been hiding from her since he was shot down. However, Monica later tells Joey that even if it feels weird, he must try to talk to Rachel.

When Joey finally bumps into Rachel with the gang at Central Perk, she's delighted to see him, but the awkward silence between them is so prolonged & embarrassing, that Monica has to jump in to announce that tea gives Phoebe the trots!

Later, in between complaining to Chandler that her Bruce Springsteen CD is in the wrong case, in fact all her CDs are in the wrong cases, Monica pretends to Joey that she's unable to help Rachel with a big problem at work, then drags Chandler off to leave the pair to talk.

Rachel tries to play this down, but the crushing awkwardness returns, so she mentions her boss, and remembers her baby, then blurts out that her boss wants to buy her baby! Joey regards this as crazy, but Rachel so embellishes her big lie that he comes to believe her.

Rachel is most pleased with Monica's devious scheme, since she has at last broken the ice with Joey - little realising that he's gone to the Ralph Lauren building, to put the frighteners on nice Mr.Zelner!

After her hero returns, Rachel is horrified to discover what Joey has done, thus Monica is horrified to discover what Rachel has done - so once Rachel blurts out exactly who told her to lie, Joey is horrified to discover what Monica has done!

The next morning, Miss Green is looking fabulous, yet professional, when Mr.Zelner calls her in to see him. Expecting to be fired, Rachel is surprised to find that her boss is on the defensive, apologising if he has in any way implied that he wanted to buy her baby!

Very wisely, Rachel hides her reaction, accepting a month's extra paid maternity leave for not suing. However, she apologises most sincerely to Joey, and so Monica's scheme has worked after all, for the ice is broken. But all too soon Joey again recalls that she has not returned his love - so she blurts out that her gynaecologist tried to kill her!

                             ---o0o---

Ross realises that he's left his faded salmon shirt at Mona's, but when he visits her apartment she's out, except he finds where she hid a spare key. But no sooner has he let himself in, than she comes home with some guy, so Ross drops down behind the sofa. The man has spilt wine down himself, so Mona gives him the pink shirt to wear.

Hours later, Ross is still on the floor, while Mona & the guy make out on the sofa - until she strips the pink shirt off her date, and flings it down. Ross pulls on the rug to bring his faded salmon shirt closer, only Mona sees the coffee table move, and discovers him!

By the end, Mona visits Ross, to reveal she understands why he was in her apartment, for she still has feelings for him too, but things were too complicated with Rachel & the baby. Ross pretends to agree, but when she asks for the shirt as a keepsake, he turns her down...

                             ---o0o---

This was not an hilarious episode, but it was entertaining, with some amazing foreshadowing for Ross & Phoebe. Although much less dramatic than last week's, it did have lots of silly situations that were good fun, if not taken too seriously. It was great to see Mona again, just as I predicted, but rather sad that Ross seems happy to let her go.

Meanwhile Chandler & Monica discussing their CDs are best forgotten, especially since at times we effectively had a long-awaited Monica & Rachel story. Phoebe's piece rather lost its way, and Alec Baldwin was totally wasted, but this is evidently the first of a two-parter, which hopefully will provide something meaty for Phoebe.

But the main act just has to be Joey & Rachel again, proving that their story is not over yet. Jennifer Aniston was superb fun as her character struggled to come to terms with her new situation, even if this did involve conning her ex-roomie into doing her dirty work.

                             ---o0o---

I don't know about in America, but when I've seen women reading tea leaves, they invert the cup onto the underliner, tap the bottom, and lift up the cup to see the pattern generated by the falling leaves.

Do you have experience of a prediction being too accurate?

If Phoebe's predictions have been so accurate in the past, then why does she show absolutely no concern for Monica's fate?

Or will Monica somehow be promoted, even though she's head chef?

Or does the violent death refer to someone that Monica knows?

Will Rachel lose her baby, resulting in a scientific discovery?

Is not Ross's arrival, just 14 seconds after Phoebe predicted that she'd (really soon) meet the man of her dreams, the most enormous foreshadowing that we have ever had?

Or did the tea leaves merely refer to a man she'd had dreams about, such as Ross in 522 "TOW Joey's Big Break"?

I might have taken an instant dislike to Jim Nelson, but at least he gave his surname, which is very rare in "Friends". So what about the surnames of Janice, Aurora, Paolo, Jasmine, Julie, Gunther, Duncan, Chloe, Joanna, Sophie, Bonnie, Doug, Kathy, Gary, Mona, and the third Kristen; or the first names of Mr.Heckles, Mr.Treeger, Mrs.Buffay, and Mr.Zelner; or Monica Geller's middle name; or the whole names of the stripper at Ross's second bachelor party, Phoebe's first husband, the dry cleaner's wife, and the woman who looked like Cameron Diaz?

After Jim Nelson introduced himself with a stutter, did Phoebe Phoebe Buffay inadvertently give her full name?

How come when Phoebe has to find another dry cleaners, the shop is just across the road from Central Perk, and not much further away?

It was next door to Dot's Spot, which has been there for years, so was it a new dry cleaners? If so, what shop was on that site before?

Did you notice that the sign on the door, Bleeker Street DRY CLEANER, was spelt incorrectly? It should have said "Bleecker". Let this be a warning about props people who spelt Rachel's surname with three Es...

Alec Baldwin only had a small part. Does this mean that he will be back next week? He must be, even though he's not that big a star.

Is it my imagination, or has Rachel's bulge grown much larger in the few days since she dined with Joey? She's now at 26 weeks.

Why does Rachel assume that a bagel on the floor means that Monica has been playing Ring & Toss with Chandler's penis?

Because it has a small hole?

Wasn't CCA's timing just great when she finally broke the long silence with an embarrassing revelation about Phoebe?

And did that even out Monica's score just a bit?

Is the mention of Monica's Bruce Springsteen CD a little in-joke?

What a dreadful liar Rachel is! Couldn't she come up with a better lie than that? Did you notice how Joey immediately thought of something far more plausible?

Yay! Mr.Zelner again, in his third episode (mentioned in a fourth). He does seem like a really nice guy. Maybe if nobody else is destined to become a couple, Rachel could end up with him - plus Ross with Mona, Phoebe with her scientist guy, and Joey living over the Bing garage!

Shouldn't Rachel have realised that Joey would go after Mr.Zelner like that? It was very much in character for him to do so.

Rachel's ease with big lies has often gotten others into trouble before, most recently Ross in 808 "TOW the Stripper". So ought we to hate her for that? The problem is that Jennifer Aniston is so damned appealing, that dreadful though Rachel can be, one can't help being entertained by her. Is that okay then?

Did you notice that Rachel wisely let Mr.Zelner speak first, showing the same good sense she had in 803 "TOW Rachel Tells..."?

How nervous are American employers these days? Has Mr.Zelner forgotten that Miss Green once promised that she was not litigious?

Should Rachel have owned up to Mr.Zelner, rather than profit from her deceit? Is it worrying that she got away with her crimes once again? Or should we be content that this time she didn't get a promotion?

The presence of Lee from Human Resources as least clears up an earlier discussion about whether Mr.Zelner was or wasn't Miss Green's actual boss, doesn't it? Or did he originally work in HR himself, and then get promoted? Did he use her progression to advance himself?

What will Joey do to Rachel's gynaecologist? He knows who she is, he's had dreams about her.

After Mr.Zelner's reaction to Joey, do you see why Monica took him along to Mattress King, in 307 "TOW the Race Car Bed"?

Ooh, a detail about the break-up which we never saw - Mona told Ross to jump up his own ass, and die!

But does that sound like sweet-natured Mona to you?

Is Rachel remembering the tiny T-shirt which Ross wanted back, yet in the end he returned it to her, in 319 "TOW the Tiny T-shirt"?

If that faded salmon shirt was Ross's favourite, when have we seen him wearing it before in the series?

Wasn't Ross hiding behind the sofa just a bit too much like Ross hiding underneath the sofa in 622 "TOW Paul's the Man"?

When Mona fetches the shirt from the closet, how come she never saw Ross's legs sticking out behind the sofa?

Why did Ross jerk the rug like that? Why not slowly haul it in?

Did you kinda hope that Mona would think that her coffee table was being moved by a poltergeist?

Why did the silly hiding-behind-the-sofa scene have to be spoilt by a crass masturbation joke at its end?

Did Ross reject Mona at the end, or did he just let her go to spare her feelings?

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant Stuart

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

No. Oh, wait. Once in high school, I was taking a chemistry class in night school, and I was earning "A's" on the tests and assignments. But the night before the final exam, I had a dream that when I got the test back, there was a big "F" on it, and a "B" written smaller on the top, right corner. Although I thought I'd prepared well for the exam, and felt confident while taking it, I had a shock when it back. I'd failed the exam ("F"), and my course grade was a "B."

Could be callousness. Or overstating the accuracy. Or the writers didn't think about the implications very much.

No, the prediction won't come true in any way. That's my prediction.

Same as above.

I don't think so.

No, it seems to me this is your own wishful thinking. Keep in mind that when Ross came in, Phoebe didn't meet him--she's known him for years.

In that case, it'd be Chandler.

Don't know, and I'm not bothered by not knowing--I don't share your desire to know everyone's full name. My grandmother was like that. I'd introduce a friend to her--"Grandma, this is my friend Lisa." And she'd say, "Lisa, what? People never tell you their full names anymore."

And I think the woman from the library looked nothing like Cameron Diaz.

No, but when I saw the episode, I was pretty sure you'd flag this moment and say something about it.

Why not?

Because it was silly. Though I was hoping she'd see the bagel and say, "Okay, Joey, where are you?"

Phoebe didn't consider it all that embarrassing, since she casually announced it to everyone present.

Nope.

Maybe. I was hoping she'd pop in her CD and do her dance.

She panicked.

Did you notice how Joey immediately thought of something

Sure. Swiss army knife (tm Claire). Having Joey come up with something sensible suited the writers for that particular moment.

She probably should have, but she wasn't thinking very clearly.

If he hasn't forgotten, maybe he doesn't believe her.

Well, if she had owned up, and she'd not gotten away with her crimes, how funny could that have been?

Doesn't the presencen of Mr. Zelner clear that up? I don't know what Lee's presence has to do with it.

(Oh, no--we don't know Lee's last name! Hee hee. I'm just messing with you. ;) )

He now knows Rachel's claim about the boss was a lie--given the context, he's likely to realize she's blurting out another panicky lie.

I don't know about Rachel, but *I* thought of the tiny T-shirt. I mentioned in another post that I think his not letting Mona keep the shirt gestures to the difference in Ross's feelings about each of them.

<Tennantesque explanation>He wears it all the time off-screen.</Tennantesque explanation>

Yes, it was a total retread, and I think the writers should view such stunts as being beneath them.

She was too excited about jumping Groo's bones. (Sorry, this is a reference to the series _Angel_, the spin-off from _Buffy_. The actor playing Mona's date was on that show as the Groosalugg [sp?], aka Groo)

Whoever thought the set-up was a good idea must have thought it was a better sight gag.

Okay, no, because this never even entered my mind.

Gah. Good question.

Both.

Belphoebe

Lee's

Surely he's Mr.Lee ??? In a formal situation like that Mr.Zelner wouldn't call him by his first name ;)

It's like Chandler is just 'Bing' at work, Ignatius Lee is just 'Lee' !!

Lauren

"Lauren" wrote in message news:a6v0aa$6eq$[email]...

Re-inserting spoiler space:

I disagree. When I've worked in offices, it's been very common for everyone to use first names--Stacy from Accounting, Bob from sales, Lee from Human Resources. And calling someone by a last name only would be highly unusual--even insulting. Good friends might call one another by last names in a joking sort of way--"Hey, Thornswack, you ready for lunch?"

Belphoebe

Belphoebe wrote:

Not really a spoiler, but here's some space anyway ...

I agree with Belphoebe here. In American offices, the use of first names is all but universal, except for the most senior (in terms of both age and authority) people. And even in those cases, people who work directly for the senior person will probably call him by his first name unless he's an older man (as in over 60), even if other, more distant, staff do not.

Also, as Phoebe said, calling someone by his last name only is pretty much unheard of these days, unless one is kidding or trying to start a fight. The fact that Chandler's boss does is it part of the joke -- it's meant to show that he's a pompous jerk. The last-name-only thing has never been a popular practice in America except among prep-school, upper-class Easterners, who were imitating what was essentially a British habit. Even among that group now it is never done except as a joke or insult.

--Rollie

In article , "Belphoebe" wrote:

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Ooh, freaky. But that was accurate. How about too accurate?

If you look, Rachel thinks it's funny, so maybe nobody was supposed to be taking any of this seriously. IMHO it's best not to dabble.

Like the wedding venue?

They could easily kill off a secondary character. Maybe Susan...

Won't a baby be awkward in Season 9?

She still met him, there was nothing said about the first time. And she had been seeing Jim Nelson around, so he wasn't new either. Anyway, it was like those spells in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" where people fell in love with the first person they saw. If some guy turns up 14 seconds after the spell is cast, BAMM! that's him. There's no second chance a minute later, and if not him, somebody the next day.

Phoebe said it wouldn't be him; and anyway he was already there, so to meet him, he would've had to go out and come back in again.

I agree with your grandmother.

I didn't really think she looked like Cameron Diaz, it was other people who said that, but the point was that without her name, I had no other way to refer to her.

Hehe, it's nice to know you're thinking about me. :)

Because you'd start close to home, and then move further outwards.

However, Priya has already pointed out my mistake in this - Phoebe does not live nearby, so BSDC was an option for her. Of course, that does mean that Nelson followed her from Central Park...

Lol

Oh well, Phoebe's flakey.

Awwwwww.....

Lol! This was where my title came from, although someone else was also dancing in the dark in this episode.

Well yes, but actions have consequences.

He's always doing it!

Well, it was still a bit much.

Or he's just a really nice guy.

How funny was it when Monica, Joey, Phoebe, and Ross lost their jobs?

Because it meant that Mr.Zelner wasn't from Human Resources.

Not all. If you check my list, you'll see that I'm only bothered about significant or recurring characters. And we do know Lee's last name.

In that case, Rachel has now been caught crying "wolf".

Well, 3 episodes after letting Rachel keep that shirt, Ross was dating again, and 2 episodes after that he had a steady girlfriend.

Priya points out that the tiny T-shirt was too tiny for Ross anyway.

That isn't what I'd say.

Yap.

Oh, hang on, I'll check with the IMDb - yes, that was Mark Lutz, who was the Groosalugg in epsodes 221 & 222. Seems very minor to me.

Oh dear.

Oh.

Exactly.

Really?

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

It was too accurate as far as I was concerned. I didn't want it to be true and didn't believe it would be, then . . . . surprise.

Heh, I thought Rachel's line about spending a lot of time at the lab was very funny. I really wasn't taking it seriously, either.

? You mean the museum?

But I doubt they would.

Maybe, but losing a baby would be so tragic, I don't think they'd do it (of course you and Adeline might enjoy that, you dark-hearted folks, you!).

You're being legalistic about "met." I don't think it was to be taken as "meet me at Central Perk," but in the sense of encountering someone for the first time ("Mom, how did you and Dad meet?").

And while Phoebe had seen Jim Nelson around, she'd not MET him (though that's probably moot, since he's not "the one," anyway).

But I don't think anything will come of the tea-leaf reading in the long term. Sorry.

Okay, fine, I wasn't seriously arguing that it would be Chandler.

I know. Not me, obviously. And I'd get so embarrassed and annoyed when she'd do that. :(

Library Woman! :)

Maybe I'll write a fanfic where Phoebe writes to City Hall to get a copy of her birth certificate, and discovers her full name is "Phoebe Lily Buffay" (named after both moms!).

All right, then.

:)

True.

Better luck next time, then.

Who?

Not for Rach, apparently.

Except when he's not.

True. But it made me laugh, so I won't complain.

He does seem nice.

how

Not very. And probably the spectre of Rachel as a single, *unemployed* mom wouldn't be too appealing to the writers.

Oh, were people suggesting he was from HR?

Do we? Lee is his first name. (See my response to Lauren and Rollie Essex's response to me.)

Yes, she has.

Hey, I wasn't trying to build a point about R & R as eternal couple; stand down, soldier.

It was still a kind gesture.

No? Sorry, then.

Also, episodes 3.13 and 3.14, and his presence this season appears to have some important consequences for major characters.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Belphoebe

In article , "Belphoebe" wrote:

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Your exam grade could have been "B", and you'd failed the course "F".

Okay, so Rachel saw it as a game, but did Monica?

Yep, unless you handwank it.

Well, she's only appeared once in the last 96 episodes, so maybe her actress has better things to do. The resulting fallout would provide intriguing new storylines for Mr.Schwimmer to shine in.

Grin.

Miss Aniston would be so magnificent, she & the show would win Emmys.

Who's being legalistic? "Meet" is either "meet" or "meet", I'm not choosy.

Lol, no need to apologise, I never imagined anything would. :)

I'm not seriously arguing at all. :)

Awww.. I agree with you lots!

Kids are always being embarrassed by their elders.

Ugh.

Josephine Phoebe Buffay (named after her real dad) would be more interesting.

Thanks.

For her, or me?

Joey, to Rachel's music.

Usually, but "maybe we should take a break" turned out badly for her.

Well, we all have off-days - and more significantly, there are episodes where the knife has more than one of its blades out at once, and even more significantly there are some where you can see the knife opening & closing.

Coo, you never cut me that much slack... ;)

Yep. Is there really a Mrs.Zelner, do you think?

So, what was appealing about the other four being sacked?

Yep, because Tag said he sent his evaluation to Human Resources. (709)

I reckon Lee is his last name, like Zelner, Bing, or Geller.

Exactly...

Well, it was all part of the con trick to make fans think Ross & Rachel would get back together by the end of the season, or the beginning of the next. I bet that ATF was full of excited discussion about the spoilers.

If someone claimed that Ross never wore the shirt, then I would say that he might have worn it off-screen; but I don't mind whether Ross has worn it before or not. If anyone wants to say when he has, that's up to them.

I wouldn't know, I've never watched it.

Grin.

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

True, but I was still disappointed.

Hmmm. She didn't seem to, did she?

Handwank. Heh.

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the museum, though. I know that the wedding did not occur there, but were you alluding to some prediction I made about the wedding? I don't remembe making any.

We'll leave that for the Darkhearted Duo Fanfic Productions.

I still think it would be too much for a sitcom. BTW, this reminds me of speculation that went on at alt.tv.mad-about-you when Jamie was pregnant. Some people were certain she'd lose the baby so the show's fundamental nature wouldn't have to be altered by the presence of a baby.

as

Mmm hmmm. Surely Phoebe meant it one particular way.

Okay, then.

Oh, all right.

anymore."

Oh, I meant that I obviously didn't agree with my grandmother.

Too true.

Oh, well. NotCameron?

interesting.

Nope, nope, nope. My fanfic, so Phoebe's first name is Phoebe!

And who would you be fanficking as Phoebe's "real dad"--Joey Tribbiani, Sr.? Are you imagining that the Buffay girls and Joey, Jr. are unknowingly half-sibs? Because that would cast a terribly disturbing light on TOW Two Parts!

I meant for her, but if you want, it can be for you, too.

Ah, okay.

Yes, and for many viewers, too. . . .

closing.

Right, whatever suits the writers for any given moment.

Hey, right back at you! ;)

No idea.

To me, nothing. Did you anything appealing about their being sacked?

Here's a cultural difference for you. I'll paste from the other posts:

Lauren:

Me:

I disagree. When I've worked in offices, it's been very common for everyone to use first names--Stacy from Accounting, Bob from sales, Lee from Human Resources. And calling someone by a last name only would be highly unusual--even insulting. Good friends might call one another by last names in a joking sort of way--"Hey, Thornswack, you ready for lunch?"

And Rollie Essex responded:

I agree with Belphoebe here. In American offices, the use of first names is all but universal, except for the most senior (in terms of both age and authority) people. And even in those cases, people who work directly for the senior person will probably call him by his first name unless he's an older man (as in over 60), even if other, more distant, staff do not.

Also, as Phoebe said, calling someone by his last name only is pretty much unheard of these days, unless one is kidding or trying to start a fight. The fact that Chandler's boss does is it part of the joke -- it's meant to show that he's a pompous jerk. The last-name-only thing has never been a popular practice in America except among prep-school, upper-class Easterners, who were imitating what was essentially a British habit. Even among that group now it is never done except as a joke or insult.

[end of quoted part]

So you see, it would be rude for Mr. Zelner to say "Lee from Human Resources" if that were his last name--and he doesn't come across as a rude person, as we've agreed.

I don't remember taking it that way, but it's been a while, of course.

I see.

I know--I just mentioned that since you seemed to be making a determination about his (lack of) importance based on his number of appearances on the show.

Belphoebe

In article , "Belphoebe" wrote:

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BOC

Indeed not, which is kinda my point, and why she's so endearing.

Nope. Your prediction was that Phoebe's prediction would not come true, so I was alluding to a prediction one might have made that the wedding would be at the Morgan Chase museum on May 15th, whereas it turned out to be at some hotel in mid-September.

Tell that to Judy's mother Althea, Fun Bobby's grandfather, Monica's neighbour Mr.Heckles, Phoebe's client Rose Adelman, Monica's Aunt Sylvia, Rachel's boss Joanna, Lily's mother Frances, Phoebe's confused psychic, Ross's neighbour Mrs.Verhoeven, and possibly Ryan the Submarine Guy.

Well, neither of us are certain, but we do agree it could be awkward.

We've been discussing this for a few days now. Phoebe looked in her teacup and 14 seconds later Ross was there. She didn't analyse it.

Lol, sorry. :)

Mark Twain once said that when he was 14, his father was a complete idiot - but by the time he was 21, he was surprised by how much the old man had learned in the intervening 7 years.

Ugh on a stick.

:b

He did put it about a bit.

Grin.

Ooh, ta sweetie!

Good innit?

Exactly.

You kinda missed the point of my extended metaphor.

Fairy nuff - let's go easy, okay?

In that case, he could be secret option number three.

Not really. But my point is that the writers did write all those, so they don't worry about how appealing such a spectre might be.

*�Lauren:

**�Surely he's Mr.Lee ??? In a formal situation like that Mr.Zelner **�wouldn't call him by his first name ;)

**�It's like Chandler is just 'Bing' at work, Ignatius Lee is just 'Lee' !!

*�Me:

*�I disagree. When I've worked in offices, it's been very common for *�everyone to use first names--Stacy from Accounting, Bob from sales, Lee *�from Human Resources. And calling someone by a last name only would be *�highly unusual--even insulting. Good friends might call one another by *�last names in a joking sort of way--"Hey, Thornswack, you ready for *�lunch?"

*�And Rollie Essex responded:

*�I agree with Belphoebe here. In American offices, the use of first names *�is all but universal, except for the most senior (in terms of both age *�and authority) people. And even in those cases, people who work directly *�for the senior person will probably call him by his first name unless *�he's an older man (as in over 60), even if other, more distant, staff *�do not.

*�Also, as Phoebe said, calling someone by his last name only is pretty *�much unheard of these days, unless one is kidding or trying to start a *�fight. The fact that Chandler's boss does is it part of the joke -- it's *�meant to show that he's a pompous jerk. The last-name-only thing has *�never been a popular practice in America except among prep-school, *�upper-class Easterners, who were imitating what was essentially a *�British habit. Even among that group now it is never done except as a *�joke or insult.

Okay, but you only disagreed with Lauren that "it's like Chandler is just 'Bing' at work", you never showed why her example didn't apply.

And for all you know, Lee's heritage is a culture where the last name is given first (that appears oxymoronic in American English, whereas in English English we'd say 'surname', which is clearer).

Yep.

Thanks.

Yes sweetie, I was just making sure you did know. :)

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Er. . . . all right. Just so long as I didn't lose my mind and make a prediction I forgot about.

Phoebe is planning to do so when she has her next seance. I think killing off Susan would have a more serious effect. I also think it would be a bad idea. JMO.

of

pregnant.

It could be, or maybe not. We'll just have to see what happens.

Mm, yes, I know the quote. My dad loves it because he's still waiting for me to think this about him. ;)

Oh, well.

YW

Nah, I got it--I just rejected it. <eg>

Yes, agreed. I'll try if you will!

Heh heh.

No, but clearly the writers didn't choose to have Rachel fess up and lose her job in this episode--they thought having her benefit from the lie and remain employed served their purposes better.

[snipping]

I thought we did just that. It really isn't done in America--Rollie Essex explained why the "Bing" thing is an exception.

Wow, you *really* don't want "Lee" to be his, er, given name, do you? Given that the writers are Americans writing a show about Americans living in America, I'd think this would be an instance where you'd say "Cheers, thanks for explaining that interesting cultural nuance," and accept that "Lee from human resources" is Lee just as Ralph Lauren, in TOW Ross's Teeth, is "Ralph," and not "Lauren."

Or are you just arguing for the fun of it? My husband enjoys doing that. ;)

Belphoebe

In article , "Belphoebe" wrote:

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Phew, that was a close one...

What Ross needs is a few more ex-wives... ;)

Yep.

Awwww... poor guy!

Yup.

Well, it's one thing to say that Joey is smart in some episodes, and smart in other episodes, but it doesn't hold water when he appears to be both in the one episode - especially when on several occasions he has been shown to be acting dumb, but then drop his act and say so.

Deal.

Indeedy.

Okay, please note I'm going easy on you, okay? :)

He might have, but the "Bing" thing shows it goes on in "Friends".

Not in the slightest.

Grin.

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Nooooooo! ;)

for

Don't fret--when I was 18, I sent him a birthday card the paraphrased the Twain sentiment.

I know that's the way you see it, but I don't. That's okay (going easy, going easy).

:)

lose

and

Duly noted. Ta. :)

It fits the personality of Chandler's boss, but not of Mr. Zelner, who's a nice, non-pompous, non-jerky, polite guy.

Mm-kay.

Thought so. (Know the type, know the type!) ;)

Belphoebe

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He's got a reputation to keep up! ;)

Lol, what did he say?

Well, when someone tells me that the moon is made of cheese, and then reveals they were kidding, the next time they tell me that the moon is made of cheese, I'm disinclined to fall for it.

YW

Yeah, okay sweetie, you win this one. :)

There you go.

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Awww, poor guy should have a marriage that actually "sticks" someday! :)

the

You know, I remember he was pleased, but I don't recall what he said.

Suppose the same guy really and truly believes San Francisco isn't a real place, but made up for the Rice a Roni commercials. He vehemently denies the existence of a real city called San Francisco in California, and doesn't appear to be joking--never gives any indication that it was a joke. Would you automatically assume, because of the "cheese" joke, that the San Francisco thing were also an elaborate joke he simply refuses to let on about?

Yay!  :)

Belphoebe

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Yes, and I know just who with!

Awwww...

I wouldn't be trusting anything he said.

Always a pleasure!

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

:)

I don't even need to ask. . . . ;)

Mm, so he can't be trusted! ;)

Belphoebe

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Grin.

That's right, the cunning genius.

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Hm. To me, "can't be trusted" suggests not genius but duplicity. . . . .

Belphoebe

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So?

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Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

.

?

"So?" as in "so what, you miserable beeeotch"? I.e. "Who cares what *you* think, anyway?"

. . . . As in, "So, what point are you trying to make?"

Or . . . .  ?

Belphoebe

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?

You can take it as read that that would never be my response.

Yep.

Ah, just for once, Secret Option Number Three does not apply, sweetie.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

*you*

Didn't think so, but that's so often how people use "So?" For example, "We've decided that we'll replace the usual choices in the cafeteria with porridge, more porridge, and nothing but porridge." "But I don't *like* porridge." "So?" (Translation: your preferences don't matter--porridge it is!) Maybe it's one of those cultural quirks.

Only what I'd written. If someone tells me that somebody can't be trusted, I'd take that to mean s/he is dishonest.

Darn!  ;)

Belpheebs

In article , "Belphoebe" wrote:

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Oh, we have that too, the difference is that I like you.

Well, in a way he is, for he likes to indulge in faking his friends out.

My socks!

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

with

matter--porridge

Well, then, yay! :)

But you don't see him as having the sort of dishonesty that one would typically see as a character flaw--oh, his mouth is moving, so he must be lying. . . .

I don't disagree that he has sometimes faked out his friends. But we disagree as to how often/when he is doing so.

Look, we obviously interpret the character differently. I don't expect everyone on this ng to have identical interpretations of the show. But can't you at least allow that we are *all* engaging in interpretation--rather than suggesting that you are simply seeing things as they *are* (and, by implication, those who see differently are *wrong*)?

I think for all the characters, there is some trait or cluster of traits that the writers fall back on for easy laughs. For Joey, it's Joey doesn't get it; doesn't know the word; doesn't process the information as fast as the others. For Monica it's being ultra-neat or competitive. For Phoebe, it's being flaky/quirky, and so on. . . . Often, the "easy laugh" approach for each of the characters is something that viewers who really like the character don't like. As Claire suggested in the 8-16 thread, we all have characters we favor, and our preferences affect the way we see (or want to see) those characters.

Naw, I'll leave you to darn your own socks. Though I did actually learn how to darn socks when I was taking an intro-to-acting class as an undergrad. The character I was playing was darning a sock. :)

Belphoebe

In article , "Belphoebe" wrote:

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Yay!

Indeed not.

Fair enough.

But of course! Just because I'm arguing my position doesn't mean that I'm arrogant about it, you know me better than that, sweetie.

The problem is that with Joey, the majority of fans see only the casual fall-back poistion which you assume, and dismiss the majority of times when Joey is quite clever. When this happenes to Monica & Phoebe, there is more equivocation, and if Ross, Chandler & Rachel are so treated then then it's the easy laugh that is quickly forgotten.

Then when I try to point out that Joey is not a dumb-ass, a moron, it is not a wonder that he can breathe nor that he can stand up straight, I'm accused of saying that Joey is some super-genius; and should I dare to point out how much time Ross spendd in stupid-easy-laughs-ville then I'm accused of being a Ross-hater.

Lol, it's a good job you never played the part of Bree Daniel in "Klute"!

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Okay, then. :)

Some of my students are taught in high school that they should never use "in my opinion," "I think that," etc. in their writing. They are told that if they are advancing a point of view, it's given that they are expressing an opinion. But this advice can mislead them, because it's not always obvious whether they're making a distinction between opinion and fact.

Sometimes when I read your posts, it seems to me as though you're advancing your interpretations as if they were not your particular way of seeing things, but the way things are. Don't get me wrong--I'm not accusing you of being arrogant. The reason I mention the writing advice in the previous paragraph is that I wonder whether you subscribe to some version of that advice--that it should go without saying that you are giving us your opinion about characters and situations. And it might be a source of misunderstanding for readers/posters who are accustomed to an explicit distinction between opinion and fact.

It may well be that the easy-laugh jokes surrounding Joey "stick" more, and I wonder whether this might come from its being used more frequently than the easy-laugh gags for the others. Mind you, I'm just thinking of this as I write, and I don't know whether such jokes for Joey *are* more frequent.

By the way, I've been watching reruns of _Taxi_, and in some ways I think Joey shares a character-type kinship with Tony Banta (the character Tony Danza played). In an episode I watched recently, Tony introduces a young actor to his friend and fellow cabbie Bobby Wheeler, who is waiting for his big acting break. (I think it's been argued before that Tony Banta + Bobby Wheeler in some ways = Joey Tribbiani.)

Tony says something like, "Coming to New York to be an *actor*--what are the odds of *that*?!?" It's the kind of line so often given to Joey (though of course, he's an actor, so he'd never ask that *particular* question). But this whole Tony Banta thing is a digression, and I'm not sure why I started it. :)

(BTW, young Tony Danza was a cutie! Present-day Danza, not so much. "Hold me close, young Tony Danza," indeed!)

I think I can understand your annoyance, but you seem to read certain things against the grain when it comes to Joey. For instance, the writers will fall back on one of their easy-laugh dumb-Joey moments, and because you don't like the idea of "dumb Joey," you'll decide that it's Joey yanking his friends' chains. Yes, there are times when that happens, but unless something happens to make it explicit that this is what happened, I'm not going to assume it has. And once again, I know you're posting your interpretation of said moments, but you tend to word it as "Joey's not that dumb. He was kidding." Rather than, "I don't see Joey as being that dumb; in my mind, he was joking."

(And I apologize if it seems as if I'm telling you what to do, writing-wise. I only really have the authority to do that with my students--unless someone asks!)

Hee. Naw, I wouldn't have taken my foray into method acting *that* far!

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

times

belief

Did you search your posts on Google, or do you keep an archive of all your posts? ;)

Okay.  :)

Yes, this is much farther than I'd ever go. (Yikes!)

It's true that none of the characters is exempt from being hit with the stupid stick at various times--I guess that's a sitcom standby. You know, I was thinking about the effect of the various easy-laugh formulae on the way we see the characters, and it occurs to me that while the others' often make us cringe and want to slap the character, Joey doesn't stop being lovable Joey. So, although he may be perceived as dumb more often than you like, I think at least he's more consistently sympathetic than any of the others. There's something in that, don't you think?

Hee hee. No, not any more, since I've got someone to hold me close. But once upon a time, as a pubescent girl. . . . Oh, yeah! ;)

But wouldn't you agree that the humor in that moment came from "this is the last person you'd expect this from"? Especially first-season Joey, who was much less nuanced than later-Joey.

Is this "no way"? I couldn't find it on the acronym list you sent me.

"Klute"!

[tearing up prepared acceptance speech]

Oh, I knew that! ;)

IMHO 2002401:003912. ;)

Giggle.

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Yeow--I didn't even realize there'd been so many!

I know, I know--and it's sometimes all too easy to forget about the fun!

I guess this could be a whole topic unto itself--the relative likeability of the characters and how the easy-laugh standby jokes affect them. I'd put Ross at one end of the scale and Joey at the opposite. . . . .

Hee hee. That show had something for everyone. :)

Hey, hey--no need to capshout! ;)

I actually did read the line you capped, but took it to mean something a bit different from what I was saying. Yours, to me, refers to something so simple anyone can do it. So easy your two-year-old nephew or Joey* can do it. While I was thinking that in the Pictionary situation, we wouldn't expect *any* of the characters to have gotten _Unbearable Lightness_ from Rachel's clue. Hence my "this is the *last* person you'd expect this from" line.

(*Not my assessment of Joey--just an example to illustrate how I took the line!)

For some odd reason, this suddenly dawned on me when I read a reply from Priya that used this acronym. :)

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Kind of scary, too. :)

I laughed at the Vermont thing. Am I insensitive? Because if that's what you're suggesting, I think *that's* insensitive. And not at all fun.

And surely the writers must be insensitive, by that standard.

Oh, if it's the episode I think you mean, then it was Alex Reager who was the object of the prediction. I liked that one, too.

Sigh. Never mind. We're not getting anywhere.

My list goes from NUI straight to NYM.

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Oh, I wasn't fretting over your having saved posts. That was flattering. My "scary" comment referred to my realization that I'd done so many posts!

what

Well, I won't feel better unless you say I'm not insensitive! Because I'm not!

I've got this image in my mind of you watching the show and not laughing much at all. . . .

was

I liked their relationship, too! :)

Okay, but it seems to me that you're accusing people who laugh at a Joey "dumb" joke of being a Joey-basher. I laugh at the jokes but I also like Joey.

Did you also add those Latin acronyms you mentioned in e-mail a while back?

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

flattering.

posts!

Ah, my misspent time. ;)

Okay, well, that's more like it. . . . :)

I'm not pretending to be a perfect human specimen. *But* I think you created a wildly unfair litmus test, one that would probably astonish the writers (who actually *want* us to laugh at their jokes).

Well, I don't know what percentage of the jokes you find unacceptable. Would you venture a guess? Do you sit there in stony silence when they occur? If your friends laugh at the "wrong" jokes, do you condemn them for it, or is their sense of humor perfectly compatible with yours?

Last night I saw the one where Tony's sister Monica (played by Julie Kavner) arrives and dates Jim Ignatowski.

"That which is so and that which is contrary" is fraught with interpretive issues. We're not going to get past the fact that people interpret differently.

I'm surprised that you even feel the need to ask, but then again I'm somewhat glad that you have, because I sense *this* is the question that's been lurking in the background for you all along. I've had the feeling you were approaching this discussion as if we were referring to a real-life mutual acquaintance named Joey you felt was being maligned.

Of course I wouldn't laugh in his face if he were a real person I knew. Surely you can agree that it's not fair to conflate sitcom characters with real-life people.

However, in the _Friends_ universe, Joey's friends do laugh in his face sometimes. So it would be more fair for you to take issue with them (but you probably already do).

I suppose you're none too fond of this, from TOW Ross Dates a Student:

Rachel: Who wrote it? Ross: Oh, I wish I knew, but the evaluations are all anonymous.

Joey: Oh hey, do you still have their final exams?

Ross: Yeah.

Joey: Oh, 'cause you can just match the evaluation to the exam with the same handwriting and boom, there's your admirer. (Ross is stunned.)

Chandler: A hot girl's at stake and all of the sudden he's Rain Man.

Instead of telling his good, close friend how clever he is, Chandler suggests he's a penis savant.

Heh.

Must be reeeeeaaaaaalllllllly full by now! :)

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Awwwww--thanks! :)

the

Sounds about right. :)

Hmm. I wonder if it generally went over better with American viewers for some reason? When my husband and I watched, there was no stopping and asking "why" about the joke--we just had an immediate, automatic reaction. We laughed. But I noticed in their responses to your review, Priya and Marita seemed to have reacted much as you and your friends did.

Okay, well, I'm with them on that last--it was just sort of painful to see. :)

Oh, I wasn't assuming that--I was wondering whether they ever got in trouble with you when they laughed at material you deemed unfunny.

[snipping the "T" vs. "D" laughter chart]

Wow--I wasn't expecting anything so thorough, but shouldn't be surprised! :)

Well, I'm glad you and your viewing friends are enjoying the show. It sure would suck if you didn't. . . . BTW, how did you manage to document the laughing without interrupting your own viewing or laughing experience? Did you have a videotape trained at your group? Have everyone jot down a quick "L" and counter number for each laugh? Just curious. :)

Yes--that's the one! And Jim realizes he enjoys being lifted. :)

with

(but

[snipping dialogue]

And Joey still thinks of Chandler as his best bud. Though, a you and others have noted, we've had a dearth of "best buds" stories this season.

[Consolidating the other conversation we've been having in this thread. . . .]

I don't know, and we don't have ping pong balls. But I could test super balls. A super ball in a cardboard box is mildly amusing to him sometimes. But not as interesting as super balls bouncing off of the walls. :)

His view is fairly limited, so *some* of it would be familar to him.

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

And I mean my thanks! :)

for

reaction.

Funny side note on this. My husband and I got into a discussion about cultural differences and humor, and I mentioned how this joke seemed to more perplexing than funny to non-U.S. viewers. When I reminded him of the joke, he laughed all over again, but to my surprise, his reason for thinking it was funny was something that hadn't occurred to me at all. His explanation is that Vermont has a distinct culture and might as well be a different country. In my case, it just struck me as silliness.

And something even more tangential. There is a program here called _Street Smarts_. It's a game show in which the host interviews people on the street, posing various questions. The contestants make bets as to which people knew the answer or didn't. Recently, the host asked one young woman, "Niagara Falls straddles which two countries?" Her response? "Texas and Massachusetts"! Not only did she seem to think these two states are *countries*, but she somehow imagined they neighbor one another *and* Niagara Falls! And yet her friends probably think she's an average girl; not a genius, but not a moron. ;)

And very compatible with Ross, showing a genuine interest in his work, getting his jokes, etc.

Well, at least he's got friends. :)

And into charts and graphs. :)

Oh, true! And there is that James Burrows connection. Hey, if a _Friends_ character caught a cab, and the driver were a _Taxi_ character, do you think that would be fun, or would we just feel bad that the character were still driving a cab 20 years later? I guess in Alex Reager's case it wouldn't be so bad, since he was a taxi driver and not a taxi driver/[something else]. :)

season.

Plus Phoebe/Monica and Phoebe/Rachel. :)

I'll try it if we get a ping pong ball. :)

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Hee hee. You're welcome. This exchange reminds me of one time when I was ten and visiting a friend after school. When my mother arrived to retrieve me, we had the usual, "Thanks for coming over"/"Thanks for having me over" exchange, but then extended to "Thanks for thanking me," "You're welcome," "Thanks for saying 'you're welcome,'" and on and on until our mothers wanted to smack us! :)

Well, I don't think so. . . . Besides being, as Rachel might point out "far away from each other," I couldn't find any pre-statehood ownership connection (beyond both having been French-controlled at one point). Vermont became a state in 1791 (14th state), and the Louisiana Purchase occurred in 1803 (Louisiana bought from Napoleon). Vermont had been an independent state from 1777-1791. If you feel like poking around, here are a couple of links I found:

http://www.thingstodo.com/states/VT/history.htm

http://www.crt.state.la.us/crt/profiles/history.htm

[stunned]

Wow. It's hard to believe China could escape someone's notice for so long, but. . . Wow. :)

She must have thought "leader of China" was something like Wallace Stevens's "Emperor of Ice Cream." ;) (http://users.crocker.com/~lwm/emperor.html)

Poor Mona. :(

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. . . . ;)

That's true. And I had another thought on this. Suppose Phoebe decided to supplement her massage income while also putting her cab to use--with a brief stint with the Sunshine Cab Co. Of course, there'd be the little detail of needing a hack license, but Phoebe's resourceful, maybe she'd already have one (*cough*forgery*cough*). Then again, if Phoebe took this route, she might just try to do so independently (sans Sunshine).

I know, but at this point, I miss all buddy combos involving Chandler or Monica and anyone else!

<Phoebe voice>But I hardly ever put that on my shopping list!</Phoebe voice>

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Hee hee. Adorable, of course! ;)

Do you know which states that would include? And for how long? Seems there was plenty of "It's mine"; "No, it's mine"; "Nuh-uh, try again--it's mine!" amongst the various colonizing countries. ;)

Oh, and hey--I thought of a fanwank you might enjoy (see, fully admitting that's what it is!).

Suppose Joey was reading his "V" volume of the encyclopedia. He was engrossed in the history of Vermont, but while he was reading the part where Vermont was independent from 1777-1791, Phoebe burst through the door. Startled, Joey threw his volume in the air, and it landed, closed. Phoebe reminded Joey that they had dinner plans, and they went out. After dinner, they spent some time at Central Perk with the rest of the gang, and by the time Joey returned, he forgot he'd been reading about Vermont. But he was left with the indelible impression that Vermont was a separate country.

And forever after, any references to China or Chinese people fooshed by her. . . .

Yup, American modernist poet and one of his poems. :)

I wasn't feeling sorry for her b/c she sat through such films--it's just that she didn't get the relationship she deserved (someone who could fully invest himself).

Hee. Yes, I was actually thinking about that one as I created my scenario. However, I wasn't thinking Phoebe would have trouble passing the test. Rather, I thought maybe she'd have trouble producing the requisite ID. Then again, she does drive from time to time--are we certain she doesn't have a license? It's been established that she doesn't have her birth certificate, and she suggests in 7.11 that she can't get a passport.

Oh, I was thinking about when Rachel yelled at Phoebe for not having mentioned--when asking if it was okay to fix up Ross and Bonnie--that Bonnie was not bald. Phoebe says something like, "But I hardly ever say that about a person." ;)

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

<French accent>And France will rule them once again!</French accent> ;)

It *is* puzzling. Less so b/c of location--Louisana and Texas are neighbors--but I'm looking at a timeline (at http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/browse/wn.html) and it has TX as having been Spanish from 1519-1821, Mexican from 1821-1836, and a republic from 1836-1845.

. . . And the shaded region on the map from the Louisiana site (http://www.crt.state.la.us/crt/profiles/history.htm) doesn't include TX. It looks like Lousiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Nebraska, Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Minnesota. But not Texas or New Mexico.

admitting

Thanks! :)

Me, too. My sense of it is this wasn't really resolved. But I suppose she could steal Ursula's license and use that. Phoebe's name on the porn boxes, and Ursula's name on the hack license. . . . ;)

Belphoebe

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

anyone

No, generally both instances are taken as proof that the writers are annoyingly inconsistent with all characters. And I'd still like you to be more objective with your analysis. When I said Priya could be a fair judge and you could not, I meant it. There's a line coming up in 818 - some of us can't wait for your analysis to see if you understand why it was tastelessly written, or if you take it to be encouraging somehow.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:NFhs8.109$[email]...

stupid.

be

judge

Oh, I think you mean 8.19? The ____ might be ____'s?

Belphoebe

"Belphoebe" wrote in message news:cMis8.17687$[email]...

When

of

Yeah, that's the one. And I stand corrected on the number.

abrahammy :

... and somehow for 818 and 819 also

I'm waiting more for the interpretation of 818's "That would have been hard to ___ __ __."

Christoph

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

You mean a line from 819?

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Oh wait, I remember the line now. But there's a tasteless line in 819 too.

Priya

Yes, it wasn't very nice was it? Maybe he has feelings for someone else though?...

Yes please! She's been getting little scraps hasn't she? I wondered, why couldn't they have included Pink Floyd's "Dark side of the moon" in the CD collection, as it would have made excellent continuity.

She was just pathetic at making up a story...I don't think she meant to!

Really?

Eerrr yeah..but I can't think of one now! I'll remember at some obscure moment later today!

I don't think the writers thought it through. I've been really dissapointed with the last three of four episodes, I'm getting worried.

She might become manager?

It was refering to her wasn't it?

Lol...errr...what could it be?

Yeaaah, but, hmmmm, I dunno...

It's another hmmmm, I dunno I'm afraid!

Who's the woman who looked like Cameron Diaz? Also you forgot Caitlyn.

Lol, it wouldn't surprise me!

Bad writing?

I just put it down to the writers hoping we won't notice.

Reeeally? < sorry, couldn't resist that joke!

Yeah, I can't see how though.

It's not your imagination, it suddenly has, more bad continuity?

Maybe she's disgusting too!?

That's not nice!

Lol, yeah, I never noticed that!

I know, it's pathetic.

Oh stop it!

I know, he seems to do that a lot. She should have realised. But Joey should have also been suspicious.

No! But yes!, damnit!

Yeah, and what was that face she made?

Well I suppose he wants his job and not bad publicity.

Yeah, Rachel seems to get away with a lot...

That wouldn't be very professional.

Hope he doesn't go OTT again.

No...

Great!

Everyone can be a bitch.

Could be...

Bad writing again, I thought that, it's bad continuity, why didn't they use the red sweater?!

Yeah, unfortunately, more "pathetic Ross".

I thought that...

I thoght that too! Silly boy.

Errr...nooooo

I know, it's stupid.

I liked the fact that Ross was stronger at the end and didn't end up all pathetic again.

Owen

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Judging by Ross's track record, it's more likely he's ready to move on.

Yep.

Oh, how come?

Well, in that case she's dreadfully irresponsible.

Indeedy.

Ooh, a prediction...

Oh, I didn't think they were that bad.

Could be, but it would have to be more than the restaurant.

Not necessarily. Phoebe predicted *a* violent death.

Well, the baby's father was a medical miracle.

Fourteen seconds sounds like really soon to me.

It's a goer...

The young palaeontologist in 707 "TOW Ross's Library Book".

I didn't forget her, she's not important enough.

Grin.

Or maybe it was a long way from Central Park...

Nothing to do with the writers.

Grine.

Easy, he becomes Phoebe's boyfriend for an episode.

I don't think either of us are qualified to debate that...

LOL!

Well, if the cap fits...

YW

Yeah.

Hehe.

He trusted her. Look how shocked he was to find that she lied to him.

Grin.

How do you mean?

He's not your typical hard-bitten executive, is he?

I knowwww...

Happens all the time.

Me too.

To put the frighteners on Gary.

Yep!

Ouch.

Yeah.

That's been done.

Oh, it was reasonable for him to do that, since he was gradually pushed into the situation, each step following on.

That *was* an error. Poor set design.

That was a mistake by Ross.

It might have been fun!

Yeah.

Stronger than what?

Tennant

Surely it would have taken him some time to get over her?

Remember in eeer 103? He says that kissing is like the stand-up comedian that he has to sit through before...Pink Floyd come out!

Yep.

Lol, oh god....

Hmmm...wait and see...

Can't she have Alessandro's job?

Ahhh...hmmm

True, maybe Rachel's daughter will turn out a medical marvel too?

Yes but we forget most things instantly, I didn't notice it.

Grr!

Ohhh I know...

Ohhh, I get the game now!

That would be silly though.

Set designers?

No, the way he picked her up was so cheesy, If I tried that I'd get thwacked in the face.

Nope, but we did notice a huge difference.

lol..

Well love is blind...

Watch that bit with her and Mr.Zelner again and she makes a really weird face.

Spose...

She needs her commupence. (is that spelt right?)

Oooh, I see.

Yeah, but we know Ross liked it!

Wince...I just can't stand Ross at the moment...

Hmmm..

Yeah, but it was planned so that him being caught would be funnier.

Lol, yeah.

Well when he refused to giev his shirt back!

I'll leave in your spoiler notice

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

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CHANDLER: You slept with somebody three hours after you thought you broke up. I mean bullets have left guns slower!

Oh, okay. I just pasted "Pink Flo" from your post into my quotation engine, and apart from the reference in 102 (not 103), it also found a reference in 807 - "My pink flowered bra! I recognize the strap!".

Then I tried "Floyd" instead, and got the quote I was half-thinking of when you said that about DSOTM continuity....

ROSS: The other night I left the museum as 'Laser Floyd' was letting out of the planetarium, and without trying I sold 50 boxes!

You see? It works!

He's the owner.

Hmmmm...

Maybe.

I did.

Grrin?

Yep.

Good! :)

Why?

Yep.

You're not a movie star.

Indeedy.

Awwwww.....

Exactly when?

Well, this is it.

It's comeuppance, and yes she does.

Yep.

I'd rather see Rachel in the RELAX shirt.

Well, he tends to be dreadful with Mona, and wonderful with Phoebe.

I thought you'd be more pleased.

It didn't have internal reality.

Exactly.

At the end he took his shirt back.

Thanks, Owen!

Tennant

I know, but there were many other factors there.

D'oh, one off!

Laser Floyd?

Lol...

He might die or something!

Fine! :p

Why would go miles to another dry cleaners?

Oh god...

Errrm...when he says "It is on mine to purchase" and she looks really funnily at the bloke from HR.

That's a funny spelling isn't it?

Yeah!

Oh you must stop!

Ok, yay! I mean it's bad that they didn't see it coming though.

I know :(

Go Ross!

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

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Do you say that Ross was more committed to Mona than he was to Rachel?

Pretty patterns of laser light dancing in sync with Pink Floyd music.

She wouldn't inherit, indeed that event could put her out of work.

Well, she already goes miles to see Monica.

You mean around the mouth?

It's 'come'+'up', then double the consonant, and add 'ance'; a bit like say, 'admittance', or 'surveillance'.

He is.

He lied his pants off to Mona, and wouldn't even go halves on her Krizzy cards; but for Phoebe he moves heaven & earth to find impossible-to-get tickets to an exclusive rock concert, just so that he can take her.

Who's "they"?

If in doubt, always leave it in.

Tennant

Oh no, less, I mean how long were they together?

Ohhh...cool! Any flying pigs?

I suppose...wouldn't someone in his family ask her to take over?

It's not that far is it?

Yeah

Or comm-e-up-ance if you say it our loud it sounds silly.

I wouldn't take it that seriously, they are pretty good friends you know!

Set designers?!

Okies.

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

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About 22 weeks, which is longer than his last two marriages put together.

You're thinking of Pink Floyd concerts. :)

They might - and then again, they might not.

It's a fair way, and the same distance as to BS Dry Cleaners.

Yes, you're right. I guess she's trying to suppress laughter, or something.

Well, G-H-O-T-I is pronounced "fish".

Even so.

It's all the director's fault, he has artistic control.

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who knows about any future episodes.

Tennant

huh?

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

Hey, I learned this in school sooo long ago! The teacher said that the "GH" was pronounced like an "f" as in the word "enouGH", the "O" was pronounced like an "i" as in "wOmen", and the "TI" was pronounced like "sh" as in "naTIon", or something like that. That's all I remember. She used this to demonstrate how strange the English language can be.

"Laurie" wrote in message news:...

Okay. Thanks for the info, Laurie.

Priya

That was pretty long I guess, it should have taken him longer to get over her though.

Yes, especially peeing, flying pigs...

Ok

When I looked on the map, it wasn't that far.

something.

Weird...

I've heard that joke before...can't remember it. Don't get it.

d'oh!

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

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Well, certainly longer than he took to get over Rachel.

Peeing?

It's only an inch on the map.

Yep.

It's GH as in 'enough', O as in 'women', and TI as in 'station'.

IIRC, the saying (it's no joke) was devised by George Bernard Shaw.

Tennant

together.

over

Ha, well I don't really think he ever did...properly...

There was this story, that one of the water tanks used to cool down the lasers burst, at the same time as they were filling the pig with air. All the water managed to get into the pig somehow, but the pig was due to go out. So they found the lowest point on the pig, his dick, and cut a hole in it, so this pig went out over the crowd, pissing all over them!

Isn't an inch = 1 mile.

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

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Hah, bullets have left guns slower.

Lol - but you didn't believe that, of course?

It's a metaphor, daddy. (101)

If you like.

Tennant

together.

Hehe

All

It's true! it was on radio2 the other day!

On the map!

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

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The pig would be too heavy to float.

Yah. :)

Tennant

There wasn't that much water in it, besides, they wouldn't broadcast something made up like that on Radio 2.

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

How do you piss all over a crowd with a small amount of water?

I wouldn't know, but the news on BBC-1 often gets things wrong.

Tennant

Ask the pig! I suppose it depends on the size of the hole.

Not when one of the band members is talking about it!

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

Hmmm...

Who was this?

Tennant

2.

I can't remember which one, it was part of Pink Floyd night. It's the punk story tomorrow :)

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

Ooh, I remember that!

"Hanging at the beaches, looking at the peaches" durvve dee durrff!

Tennant

punk

lol, except I missed the damn program! I'm so mad, I was watching the news though...how sad (about the Queen Mother that is, not because I was watching the news)....

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

I'm afraid I was recalling The Stranglers, not your TV programme...

Well, it's not to bad to reach 101, is it?

Tennant

Ok, remember that's before my time...

No, not bad. What pisses me off is the fuss they've made, she had a privilaged lifestyle, and I can think of thousands more people who've done more for this world than her.

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

Yeah. Oh well, never mind!

Absolutely - but if a woman with all that wealth & privilege can't get into three figures, then there's no hope for the rest of us.

Tennant

Owen

In article , "Owen Shiers" wrote:

Well, there are many rich people like that. What gets me is all the sycophancy on the news, with little time left for other news items.

Tennant

= "Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Exactly! There were Palestinian gunmen being held up in the "alledged" birthplace of Christ, and there was the 1 o'clock news talking about how some coffin has been moved!

OWen

"Owen Shiers" wrote in message news:plqq8.11581$[email]...

Queen

I think there are probably a LOT of people who lived during World War II who would disagree with you. Violently. The current royals are a bunch of neurotic self-absorbed babies who can't have decent, normal relationships, but King George and his Queen Elizabeth held the fort in London in the middle of the Blitz. She taught herself how to shoot a revolver for self protection and their home got bombed on a couple of occasions. She made radio speeches bringing encouragement to her people and those captured by the Germans. Adolph Hitler called her the most dangerous woman in Europe.

You don't have to like the royal family. I personally found many of their decisions in the past few years very distasteful, and would understand completely if the British people dumped the lot of them. But it is unwise to call Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon lazy, complacent or suggest that she never did anything in the service of her country. She was, at one time, a hero. Whether or not she deserves quite all the pomp now being displayed is a matter for personal contemplation. She is certainly more worthy than anybody else in that family.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:vtOq8.14548$[email]...

who've

who

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, I didn't say that she didn't do any good, I've heard many stories from my Grandmother about her courage and such. I was refering to how she lived so long, it's a known fact that people who work 40 hour weeks live shorter than people who don't suffer the stress and health effects that that entails.

unwise

did

That's where I don't think I was clear enough, I'm not doubting her, what has annoyed me is all the fuss the media (especially the BBC) has made about her death, when there are more important things going on.

Owen

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Is your headline inspired by the Bj�rk-flick? ;)

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The day I really understand what's going on in Phoebe's head, I'll be very worried indeed. However, one can only hope that Phoebe is about as accurate in her predictions as her psychic was (604 TOW Joey Loses His Insurance). After all, it seems more likely that Phoebe gets a promotion or a good job than Monica. And death? Is she trying to scare her friends, or was this just another of her mean tricks? Needless to say, Phoebe once again looked bad.

As for Rachel's tea leaves, that sounded rather reasonable. And that scientific discovery has to have something to do with fashion...

But you did, right? Talk about foreshadowing! ;) Having said that, I was also rather surprised to see that he showed up that soon after she said her prediction, so you weren't the only one.

Also, Chandler's comment about Ann Taylor was spot on. That store has clothes in literally every possible shade of pink.

This guy was creepy from the moment Phoebe started to talk to him. He was even worse than Jake! Too bad Phoebe isn't psychic when it comes to potential boyfriends.

It's okay to have the characters interact with weird people, but there's a line, and Jim Nelson was way past this line. He was just too creepy, and the result was a storyline that was plain dull and rather disturbing. Having seen James LeGros on "Ally McBeal," I thought he was going to play a character similar to Mark, which was a funny and nice guy with some weird habits. But here he was nothing but a disturbing freakshow.

Yep. This guy was much better, even though we only saw him for a couple of seconds. And even though Phoebe wasn't as enthusiastic when she talked to the universe/heaven after meeting him ("now you're talking!") as she was when she saw Will in 809 TOW The Rumour ("Wow! Well done!!"), guys like Will do not grow on every bush...

You can't help but feel sorry for the guy, even though he was talking to the people with perhaps the most knowledge when it comes to unhappy love.

Too bad Gunther couldn't drop by with a remark about Joey's love in order to lighten up the mood.. ;)

While the suggestion itself was a good one, Monica should have known that she needed to help Rachel more than that (plus that would have given us more Monica and Rachel interaction).

This was absolutely ridiculous. Rachel could have come up with something so much better than that. And this has got to be another proof that Joey isn't stupid, right? ;)

Joey is too good for her, isn't he? Here he was doing the best thing he could come up with in order to help his friend, only to find out that Rachel was lying to him. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that Ross acted like a total idiot in this episode, Rachel would have been the worst character since she lied so much, but in the end she ended up somewhere in the middle of the list.

No wonder; Rachel did a bad thing and didn't even think about the consequences.

She got off the hook way too easily! On a side note, Mr. Zelner's office was rather freaky with at least two guns hanging on the wall.

And god knows what he's going to do to her! Good thing Rachel apologized, though. He deserved it!

Not only was this story awful from the very beginning of the episode, but somehow you knew it would be bad all along. Even though I won't start calling him Mental Geller or anything like that, it was still pathetic and did not give the so-called "professor" justice. I just wish the people on the show could realise that Ross doesn't have to act like a total moron in order to be funny.

*groan* Pathetic.. and it does not stand for "really cool way to live" either (110).

Well, this certainly indicated that Ross loved Rachel more than Mona..

Well, you seem to like it more than I did. I thought it was a silly little episode with one incredibly annoying character (Jim N.), while Ross and Rachel showed two sides of themselves I did not like at all. As for the others, Phoebe was rather okay, Monica and Chandler were quite amusing, and Joey was good (as always, one might say).

The CD-plot itself was ridiculous, but I agree that Alec Baldwin's appearance was promising.

However, one should point out that: a) Monica was right when she had doubts about Chandler and his Miami Vice CD. She has probably not forgotten his outfit on Thanksgiving 1988. b) Chandler all of a sudden believed in people being "meant to be together." So why was he so nervous in 816? c) Chandler has a really good voice. "Tomorrow" is not an easy song to sing. :)

Yes, I'll agree with you that she was funny, but what she did was very wrong.

I've never seen it myself.

Not that I can remember. I don't believe in those things anyway.

I guess it goes with her attitude. It seems like she couldn't care less about her friends; Chandler and Monica in particular.

Perhaps she'll buy the entire restaurant?

Rachel! Gosh, the death-rumours are true!! ;)

Like I said earlier, it probably has something to do with fashion. For instance, green pants really go with blue sneakers or something like that.

It has to be. I was stunned by the fact that Ross was the next one to show up, but who knows if the line actually meant anything.

Well, I doubt she's going to hit on Chandler any time soon...

Are you talking about Frank Sr's wife and Frank Jr's mom?

Annoying, isn't it?

Grin. Sorry, but I doubt it.

She probably used to go to the dry cleaners next to her own apartment.

Joey and Phoebe went to a dry cleaners in the same neighbourhood in 622 TOW Paul Is The Man, but the door was not on the left side of the shop in that episode.

Yep. Besides, didn't Ben address the invitations? ;)

Do you want a real answer or a speculation? :)

I noticed that as well. She was notably bigger.

Who knows. Perhaps she thinks they're still in that phase that Phoebe described in 517 TOW Rachel's Inadvertent Kiss.

*ahem* Funny how they manage to put in so many dirty jokes..

Payback time! ;)

Kind of, but they still have a long way to go.

I'd think so. Too bad Matthew Perry hasn't played Daddy Warbucks in "Annie."

Yep, if this wasn't an indication that Joey isn't stupid, it certainly was a sign that he knows more about pregnancy and childbirth than she does.

Yep, but don't let Joey near the Bing dog. He'll only end up breaking it! ;)

She really should have seen it coming. I guess she underestimated him.

It's hard to judge her because she comes off as a better person than e.g. Ross. Is it the interaction with the other characters that makes her look good? Is it Joey? Is it the pregnancy? Is this issue sexist? It's hard to say, but I thought she was good in 808 TOW The Stripper even though she lied.

Typical sitcom-trick.

In the USA during business hours, somebody files a lawsuit every ten seconds. That's more than enough to make most people very careful.

Well, what she did was wrong, but Americans do get too little maternity leave IMO. Europeans are so lucky when it comes to that.

Too bad Mr. Zelner didn't bring Bob from Human Resources so that we could have got to see what he looks like. Would he really be a good match for Jill?

Good question, but hopefully Rachel will tell the truth this time.

Lol! And he fought for them in 404 TOW The Ballroom Dancing as well!

I'm just glad to see that Mona has guts.

Can you blame her? :)

Well, that depends on whether Ross tells her about the incident. I doubt it, though, seeing that Rachel made fun of him and his pink shirt

Well, he has been wearing pink shirts before. Check out e.g. 325 TO At The Beach when he's sitting on the couch together with Bonnie, plus in 625 TOW The Proposal, Part 2 when he's talking to Rachel about back-ups. However, I don't think Ross was looking for any of these shirts since they don't look like the shirt Mona had.

It was, and it was so much better in that episode that this was a huge fiasco.

Preoccupied with her new boyfriend perhaps.

Well, a) he was stupid, and b) I guess he didn't hear about Chandler's trick in 303 TOW The Jam.

Hehe.

I know. It got only worse, and after 816, I once again hoped that he would return back to normal, but no...

Ross was trying to let her down easily, but it was obvious that he hurt her feelings.

This episode was not good. In fact, the highlight was Chandler singing, "Tomorrow." (That scene was amusing though!) All in all it's definitely among the weakest episodes of the season. But it can only go one way from here, so next episode should be a big improvement.

"Marita Bakken" wrote in message news:[email]...

Boy, that's open to debate. When the Bad Selves are in full swing, he's horribly neurotic and weak; she's nasty and destructive. He'll (mostly harmlessly) annoy the heck out of you. She'll do something that really hurts you and revel in self-satisfaction that she's managed it. If I knew them both, I might find him annoying and tiresome, but I'd say hello. I'd avoid her like the plague and always watch my back very, very carefully. Rachel looks better being hateful because she's prettier and she can always resort to looking vulnerable so people leave her be. This is a gender issue. Vulnerable women, particularly beautiful ones, are people that others wish to protect. Vulnerable men look weak and unimpressive, and invite scorn.

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:00:42 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:

While I'd prefer to hang out with S8 Rachel than S8 Ross, I do see your point.

Rachel has lied quite a lot this year, especially in 804 TOW The Videotape, 808 TOW The Stripper and 817 TOW The Tea Leaves. In the first two she got "busted" in front of some of her friends, so she was indeed humiliated because of it. Perhaps that's why it's easier to forgive her. However, in this episode she lied to Joey, while not considering what he might do to help her with her "problem." Personally, I thought this episode was much worse than the other two, mainly because she lied to a guy who was tormented enough as it was, and also because she actually gained privileges because of her lies. And yet, in spite of all this, she still manages to pull off a rather enjoyable story together with Joey. Go figure.

[email] (p r i y a) wrote:

It's worth it, isn't it? I love that finale, and it was even better since I hadn't read any spoilers beforehand.

ITA.

That's a great idea! When I was at the taping for 820, they didn't talk to the audience at all, except for Matthew. If they had asked us more questions about what we saw on stage, I think many of the fans there would have known a lot about the show. I would have loved it if they actually had asked us about some of the jokes that they changed over and over again, because there were many of them that were much better in the second or third take of the scene. Hopefully, they'll choose the jokes with the best reactions from the audience. I remember one line in particular that I thought was rather "easy," and even the actress who said it looked like she didn't feel comfortable saying it.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

As in Bj�rk Gu�mundsd�ttir? Nope - but nice one!

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Agreed.

Wouldn't that mean her death?

Isn't she the most death-obsessed of the six?

Indeedy - what got me was her lack of empathy with Monica.

Comfortable fashion boots!!

I knowww!!!! It happened so fast I didn't have time to expect it!

Did you know that the symbol on Ross's shirt, made up of two hands, actually means "friends" in American Sign Language?

Yay, that's so great, sweetie!

And we weren't the only ones either. In his review of the episode, the TV critic of Entertainment Weekly described this incident as a portent of things to come - and warned his readers that by the time "Friends" ends after its next season, Ross & Phoebe will be married.

Really? How would Chandler know something like that?

I suppose this is another gay jibe.

You are so right. The guy was such a drongo! I thought that maybe he would scrub up okay for the dinner-date, but he was just as scruffy.

But the point of the story was that Phoebe *could* see it (though as you say she had no psychic inkling of his foul-mouthed behaviour) but she felt bound by what she thought the tea leaves had told her to do.

Indeedy - and yet we were given his full name! Aaarrrggghhhh!!!

Yeah, he was just the fill-in guy for Parker.

Absolutely, although JA has two Wills in the bush. ;)

Yeahhh...

Unhappiness in love, yes - Monica twice had to reject otherwise eminently suitable potential husbands, for marginal reasons; while for Chandler the world was his lesbian wedding - but haven't Ross & Rachel suffered rather more than they have from unrequited love?

Lol, what might he say?

I agree that we need more Monica & Rachel stories, but isn't Rachel at least equally imaginative? She's certainly a more practised liar.

Yes, he saw straight through her initial story, but what do you do when someone you utterly love backs that up with many details?

Well the curse of Rachel is that JA makes you like her.

Yes - so in fact Monica *should* have helped Rachel more at the start.

Indeedy. I reckon that Zelner has the hots for her.

WHAT?!? <checks> Ah, this is usually where I ask you how you notice this stuff, but here I can see why I missed the guns, since I was too busy gawping at Rachel, and then trying to read the nameplate on the door, which looks to me like "R. Zelner".

Maybe nothing? And then nothing again when she really is in trouble?

Yes, and at least it felt as though Rachel sincerely meant it, unlike Phoebe's apologies last week.

Actually, I didn't find this as bad as you did, just silly. You can see someone, knowing where a key is hidden, letting themselves in to retrieve their own property, though Ross should have left the door wide open.

Were his actions that moronic? We all do silly things occasionally, for which our only excuse was that it seemed like a good idea at the time.

I'll agree with this. He should have pulled the rug very slowly, or else just bided his time until the couple were occupied elsewhere.

Lol, that was "pathet"... :)

Yeah, the S3 Ross loved S3 Rachel more than the S8 Ross loved Mona.

And then the S3 Ross took up with a Bonnie...

Oh, don't misunderstand me, it only gained a pass mark, it wasn't particularly good, and it certainly was no classic. But OTOH it did manage to entertain me, at least a bit. If this had been an episode of some rival sitcom, it would have been a good one.

Yes, he's clearly coming back in the next episode, and of course what we saw of him here was a clip of film from that performance. However, it seems most unlikely to me that he'll do more than three episodes.

Lol!

He had a rival?

And did you notice the unusually warm voice that he came out with when he asked Pheebs what her tea leaves said?

Absolutely. We disapprove, but we do not wince.

Are there no Nordic traditions in foretelling?

Okay - but those things can work, and do, in works of fiction.

It's just as well that Monica cares for her, then, isn't it?

At a risk of being legalistic, would that count as a promotion?

Eek!

That's not a *very* scientific discovery, though, is it? :)

Look at it this way - if Shakespeare had written this episode, the line would *definitely* have meant something...

Exactly!

Yep.

I knowww! And Jim's surname is Nelson, while Mr.Nelson's first name is Jim, and Rachel's middle name is Karen (111), and Rachel's middle name is Karen (519), and Rachel's middle name is Karen (711) - oh yes, and in 808 we learnt that Rachel's middle name is Karen!!! Grrrrr...

Jeg ogs�. :)

Good point.

Oh, thanks. You didn't say what was there before.

RPGOL!!!

Okay, just this once, you can tell me using rot13 if he's in 818, but no details please. Oh, but don't just say yes or no, it's too transparent.

Was her bulge hidden better in 816?

Oh, do you mean...

PHOEBE: Good wrist action.

MONICA: Did I squeeze it too hard?

PHOEBE: Let's just say, I'm glad I'm not Chandler.

<G>

Yep. I'm afraid it was stuff like this that edged up the star rating.

I knowww!!! This line alone was worth a quarter star.

Oh yessss....

Lol, yes. This line is *half* the reason for my review title.

Absolutely!

And if 509 is anything to go by, Rachel hasn't even read the books.

Awww... poor guy! Of course, it will be a Bing cat...

Exactly.

It's the power of Jennifer Aniston.

And soap operas?

Eek.

Oh, I didn't realise that. So in the end, Rachel only got a fair go?

Maybe his full name was Robert E. Lee?

Maybe Tag would...

Let's hope so.

Ooh! I missed that one! Thanks!

At last!

Not at all. There have been many occasions in the past where we've seen her swallowing her own opinion. At last she spoke out.

Would that mean that Ross could never dare wear the shirt?

Okay thanks, that does at least establish him as a pink-shirt guy.

You really hated this, didn't you? ;)

He can't have been that special, if she still had feelings for Ross.

Lol, Ross wasn't quick like a cat, nor was it one fluid motion!

Smil.

This character *needs* to be with Phoebe...

Yep.

Awww... never mind. :)

Yay! And thanks once again for your thorough replies. :)

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

LOL!

Its not all of a sudden. He mentioned something similar in his wedding vows too. "You were the person I was meant to spend the rest of my life with..." Tennant thinks I'm making a big deal out of it but the fact is the writers really messed up.

I knowwww! There are some sites where people have put little wav files of him singing :)

Tennant, I think that was MP. :)

Priya

[email] (p r i y a) wrote in message news:...

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Oops! I totally forgot about that part. Okay, I guess it's time to watch the wedding again. :)

I agree. This was not in character and obviously an error. In fact, I don't see how you can explain this line unless you think of it as an error. If Monica believed in soulmates last year, she should have believed in the concept now as well.

Lol! Yes, I went to that page! Actually, he's quite good.

[email] (Marita Bakken) wrote in message news:...

Yep. I remember it because I saw that part too many times. I think I'll watch again too. :)

I guess, we can say that Monica might have used some romantic terms in her vows for effect even though she didn't believe in them. She did have trouble writting her vows and wanted to know if she could lie in her vows (821). But Chandler couldn't have made up what he said unless he really meant them because his speech was an impromptu one and he seemed like he was being really sincere. So, he must believe in the concept of destiny and the like. I wouldn't just dismiss this as people being inconsistant. Just another one to add to the long list of continuity errors. You know what BKC should do. They should ask the studio audience after they finish filming if there was any continuity error and fix it then and there. A little far fetched? Well, it came out of a dream I had recently. lol.

Oh yes, he was very cute.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

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You're saying the actor slipped in his characterisation, and his own voice slipped out, like MW accidentally making Janice sound mellow?

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Yes, atleast thats what I thought when I first watched that scene. How often does Chandler talk like that?

Priya

Look what just showed up, two months after you posted it...

In article , p r i y a wrote:

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I'm afraid I don't really know. Marita is far better than I am at answering such a question. However, listen to how much MLB's voice changes, when Joey is being sincere, or acting a part...

Tennant

On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 23:04:23 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

lol. And I thought my news server was bad... :)

Yes, but this was really very simple, straight forward question. There was no need to "voice" the dialogue in any particular fashion.

Priya

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

My news server passed it on as soon as it received it, they've been stuck somewhere, which is why I didn't get them. I've just replied to a whole stack that you sent on March 6th, and if you like them, there are more like that to follow...

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Okay, so it was MP slipping through, then.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

Who can forget the swan? That was the funniest moment at last year's Oscar ceremony. ;)

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It would, but at this point in the series; would we really notice it if Phoebe all of a sudden disappeared? For the record, I'm *not* saying that I want them to kill off Phoebe, but the point is that she has become nothing more than a vicious prop in the recent episodes.

She certainly is.

Absolutely.

No, Tennant, that's your discovery! ;)

Grin.

No wonder he wants a Helen Geller... ;)

Yep, I read that article.

Well, I know it, and I've never been inside my local Ann Taylor store.

Not necessarily. And it would be a gay joke about Ross, not Chandler.

And he was so nice on "Ally McBeal." This makes me wonder what Matthew Perry's character on "Ally McBeal" is going to be like on April 15th.

There's one word for that; stupidity.

I'd rather have more of Baldwin!

And most women are green with envy..

I wouldn't call any of them marginal reasons, though. And if you include their youth, I'm pretty sure Chandler and Monica are the "losers." At least Ross had girlfriends in high-school and college, and Rachel was the popular cheerleader with all the boyfriends.

"Wanna join me in the back while I "drop some cups"?"

Maybe. But seeing how awkward the situation was..

You stand up and fight for them... which is what dear, old Joey did!

That's true now, but I didn't like Rachel at all in the first couple of seasons. She wasn't that funny, and she annoyed me immensely.

It's kind of like in 508 TOW All The Thanksgivings, only the roles are reversed. Monica had to leave before she could give Rachel the proper instructions. Luckily Rachel didn't cut off Joey's toe!

Even if he's married?

I agree. It has to be "R. Zelner."

Let's hope so. Dr. Long needs to stay healthy so that she can deliver Rachel's baby in a few months.

Agreed. She did feel bad about it in the end, even though she got more maternity leave because of it.

I hated it from the start. It had "Ross the Moron" written all over it.

But why did he go inside? Why did he decide that his shirt was worth so much that he should break the law? Why didn't he buy a new shirt? Why didn't he call her and ask for his shirt? Why did he hide when he knew she was going to hang out in her apartment? Was he really that stupid that he thought they wouldn't notice him when he was behind the couch? Didn't he learn anything from 622 TOW Paul Is The Man? And why, oh why did he pull the rug?

Exactly. You just don't do something so obvious when the people you're hiding from are about two feet away from you.

Potato, potato..

Are you saying that Rachel will "bald" her doctor in the finale? ;)

No, sorry, I thought it was terrible. It wasn't the worst episode of the season (since I didn't feel like slapping any of the characters), but it was really close to being *the* worst S8 episode.

Absolutely. He's too big to be on the show for a long time, which is why he's Phoebe-boyfriend material..

Probably.

Yep. That's usually reserved for Monica.

True.

Well, yes, but the Nordic traditions are more about nature.

Fiction, yes, but not in real life.

It is what has saved her numerous times, most recently in 618 TOW Ross Dates A Student IIRC.

I think that's the closest you can get.

This is Rachel we're talking about.

I don't think many people think of Shakespeare when they watch this show, though.

Perhaps they're saving it for a special show on the night when #200 airs.

In 605 TOW Joey's Porsche Joey is standing right outside Dot's Spot while waiting for "his Porsche." (14:15 on the DVD.) Ross and Rachel walk up to him, but in this episode the street is much longer, and there is no shop where the dry cleaners now is. In fact, in 605 there was nothing but a street there. Now that has to be a continuity error...

Okay. Rot13 about 818: V pna pbasvez gung ur vf va snpg va rcvfbqr 818 GBV Znffncrdhn.

That's a possibility. She was sitting down a lot in 816, and she was wearing a long coat when Joey came to see her.

Lol! Well, not exactly... But you already know that.

Hah. ;)

Eh, I didn't think it was good enough.

Obviously. Is the other half about the clean shirts?

We can only hope that Vogue has pregnancy articles.

That means that Mommy Bing won't be able to play football with her kids.

Yes, with a fair amount of help from LeBlanc.

I would believe so, yes.

Not really. The system isn't fair for American women, but she still did a bad thing.

Could be, but we don't know that.

Yeah.. "Glory Days" isn't doing well..

And 802 TOW The Red Sweater..

Yep. I hope Mona hides her keys from now on.

I don't think Rachel could care less at this point.

He also wears a pink shirt in 802 TOW The Red Sweater. Too bad they didn't call this episode 817 TOW The Pink Shirt..

I did. It's that obvious, huh? ;)

He may not be her soulmate, but a girl has got to eat! ;)

Exactly!

Judging by what I saw in 810 and 816, I'd say that he needs to be with his sister, Ben, Phoebe or Joey.

Yep, I'm afraid I was very disappointed in this episode.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Lol yes, but you should've seen her concert at the Albert Hall relayed live on BBC-4, where the music was quite breathtaking, though she dressed like an explosion in a soda fountain. :)

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I think that maybe you are being just a *little* too hard on her, but then again I would like to see Monica take her in hand.

So perhaps you should cut her some slack?

Okay.

Lol, that's so sweet of you!

But Kauffman & Crane may use my idea in return for on-screen credit.

:)

Lol, Helen is a nice name. Despite the connotation, Ross probably wouldn't have objected so much if it hadn't been Susan's idea, and it seems to me that Rachel's later veto was somewhat intemperate.

And anyway...

CAROL: Hello? It's not gonna be Helen Geller.

ROSS: Thankyou!

CAROL: No, I mean it's not Geller.

..which suggests to me that it's Benjamin Willick, and if Rachel did withdraw her veto, the new baby's name would be Helen Green.

Good stuff, eh? :)

Because you take an interest in such matters?

In the context of what Ross's friends said about him, yes; but in the context of what the script said about him, no - for he was insistent that the shirt was not pink, but faded salmon. If you read my review through you'll see that I carefully maintained this distinction...

Ross asks the girls if they have seen his faded salmon shirt. Ross realises that he's left his faded salmon shirt at Mona's. Ross pulls on the rug to bring his faded salmon shirt closer. The faded salmon shirt was Ross's favourite.

Monica & Rachel discuss Ross's pink shirt. Mona gives the man the pink shirt to wear. Mona strips the pink shirt off her date.

I think my view of "Ally McBeal" is best summed up with the observation that the best thing about the show is the unisex toilet.

She sees the world at a different angle than the rest of us. She once turned down a chance at Merrill Lynch, because she thought that if she worked with stocks, she'd have to live in a box, and only eat lox, and have a pet fox - which if you think about that, summed up her teenage years, the horrors of which must never be underestimated.

Yes, I agree the proportion was a bit wrong.

Exactly.

Okay, maybe "marginal reasons" wasn't the most apt phrase to use, but my point was that if Monica had *really* loved Richard or Pete then she wouldn't have dumped them. Women have stood by their men in the face of far worse disadvantages, because of love.

Fair point, but that only emphasises how things changed from 1994 on.

Eek, on his head?

Well, it's nice to know she can lie better when she's comfortable... ;)

Exactly.

Really? I always liked her, but she did become much funnier halfway through the first season, and for me she was great in the second.

Lol yes, an excellent observation.

I'm not so sure he is, though Rachel has assumed so.

Yay! I'm so glad you concur. That "R" means that he has been given a name which we haven't heard; unlike say Janice or Mr.Treeger, where it could be that those names are all the writers have invented.

Yeah, but you missed my point, sweetie.

In the future, Rachel could really be threatened by somebody, and this time Joey does nothing about it.

That's right, though not more than she deserved, since it seems that maternity leave in America is short compared with Europe.

Awww...

Well, for starters he was used to going in there, it wasn't strange territory for him. Then each step along the way pushed him that bit further, which he wouldn't have done in one jump. On top of that, was not the lesson of 622 that he *could* get away with hiding behind the sofa? And lastly, no, he shouldn't have pulled the rug.

Yep. That was foolish impatience.

Well actually, it's potato, potat... :)

Lol, but no. You're forgetting we have a Bonnie in S8.

I guess I just like Rachel more than you do, it's a guy thing.

Yeah, and then he'll be ex-Phoebe-boyfriend material.

Ta.

Chandler & Monica did a little swap there.

Okay.

Geese flying south for the winter, berries on trees, and stuff?

Okay.

Yep. The point is that Monica loves her, faults included.

Okay.

Yes.

Well, neither did I, but I did think of him after days of discussion.

Oh, yesss!!! :)

Oh yes, that's right. Are there other sightings?

Ah, but there was a mysterious wall across the road.

Where I live the planning regulations are very tight, designed to stop new building from encroaching on our beautiful countryside - but this means that in the villages you suddenly notice that a new house has appeared in between two others, or three houses changed into five.

Lol, I thought for a moment that "Znffncrdhn" wasn't rot13! Thanks.

Okay, thanks.

Hehe.

Stort smil.

Oh, I really laughed at this.

OMG - that makes *three* reasons!

The final third was that Joey was dancing in the dark to Rachel's tune.

Beyond fashionable maternity wear?

Awww, I reckon that next time her vision won't be compromised.

Yep.

Okay.

Okay then.

And now I recall who told me what I told you 31 paragraphs above. :)

Yes sweetie, ah'm jess joshin'.

Oh dear. What is the great Theresa Russell like in the show?

Oh sure, and he went (taking Ross & Chandler) to kick the ass of the guy upstairs in 311, and he came running (with Chandler) to defend a screaming Monica & Phoebe in 316, and he went after Dina's boyfriend in 810. But in 625 Chandler asked him to come & kick Richard's ass - and Joey wouldn't.

Lol!

Oooohh.

Well, that's what this story is called in my database.

Yeah.

RPGOL!

:)

Yep.

I was a bit disappointed in this episode. Still, 818 is on tonight!

No spoilers PLEASE from anyone who has already seen episode 818.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Interesting.. At least she refuses to follow the rules of fashion..

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I'm not hard on her, I criticize the writers for letting her deteriorate into a sidekick who's never allowed to have any good storylines. When many fans call her "Bitchy Phoebe," it should tell us that they've taken it too far. I hoped she would finally get something to work with in this episode, but instead she's given a plot with a real creep. Phoebe deserves better than this.

Also, when they try to give her "good" lines who are supposed to be really funny, chances are the lines show how much she dislikes her friends. I don't see the fun in that.

No, but I hope something will happen with Parker, so that she can get some good scenes for a change.

BOC. And you'll need tickets to a taping as well, right? ;)

I certainly hope so. That would also make a potential marriage between the two more meaningful.

It was certainly interesting.

Well, you know me and clothes that are on the show.. I still kick myself for not buying that red top that Phoebe was wearing in 714 TOW They All Turn Thirty when I saw it at the mall last year.

<snip>

True, but the joke was after all that he was wearing a pink/faded salmon shirt which wasn't very "manly."

The show is in a major slump at the moment since so many people have left the show, but I'm definitely looking forward to Matthew's episode. Christina Ricci is also going to appear in that episode.

But why is she so cynical in most of the episodes, and why doesn't she use that side of her to know who to date?

Definitely. If I were to "fix" this episode, I'd have more of Joey & Rachel, Chandler singing and Alec Baldwin.

Monica didn't love Pete. She had a crush on him because the prospect of having a future with him seemed great at the time. She loved Richard, though, but she loved the idea of having a family more than she could ever love him.

That's true, but I still think they have more to complain about than Ross and Rachel.

Why on his head?

Lol.

Yeah, I always thought she was a spoiled brat who was too stupid and na�ve in the first place. I preferred Monica and Phoebe.

Apart from 207 where she was brilliant, I never really found her that funny. This has changed now, though, since I think she has never been as good as she is at the moment.

TT. :)

We could check if he's wearing a wedding ring.

Perhaps they mentioned his name in the uncut version of 517 TOW Rachel's Inadvertent Kiss?

OIC, the whole "wolf, wolf" scenario.

I said that! :)

I like Ross, but not when he's acting like this. I want Nice Ross.

But you don't go into your ex's apartment after you have broken up!

No, I think the lesson from 622 is that the only way he can get away with something like that is if Rachel or any of his friends are there to help him.

Exactly.

Why don't you include the last o?

Well, she wasn't there, but her look-alike was. ;)

BOC.

Probably.

Yep.

Yep, that's it.

Bottom line: Phoebe should be more grateful.

Hehe. Okay.

We can always hope.

I can't check it right now, but 221 TOW The Bullies, 325 TO At The Beach and 714 TOW They All Turn Thirty come to mind.

IC. We don't have that problem here..

Monica needs better "ammunition." Her line about Chandler in this episode ("Chandler has two copies of "Annie"!!") and her line in 704 TOW Rachel's Assistant ("Chandler one time wore my underwear to work!!") were much better.

Ah, I see. Good one. :)

Yep. Come to think of it, pregnant Rachel is so fashionable compared to pregnant Phoebe.

She'll be prepared for that.

Grin.

I know. ;)

I have no idea; I have never even watched the show.

Perhaps he knew that the odds were bad? Big tree...

a) She's not in love with Ross. b) She doesn't say anything to the others when they wear ridiculous clothes.

So you didn't listen to Ross either? ;)

Yeah... I didn't get to see it on Thursday because I was driving around looking for a hotel, so I saw it last night. Thank goodness I have a VCR that works. :)

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Don't you see outfits as weird as those on the catwalks?

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Okay, but this takes us back up a level. I think that maybe you are being just a little too hard on the way that the writers have written her (this really applies to all character analysis, since we are both fully aware that the six friends are not real) but I do readily agree that I would like to see better material for Phoebe, but not forgetting that we also need more Best Buds, Monica & Rachel stories, Ross at his best, Janice to keep her record going, comeuppances for Rachel & Judy, filled out names, and lots of flashback episodes to clear up the back story.

Me too, but he's not going to be around for long, is he?

That is to be expected, yes. :)

Hmm...

Grin.

Marita! I'm shocked! How could you fail so!!!! :)

That's right, but not to him.

I take it that this is for May sweeps.

Errr.. fear of abandonment?

Lol okay, your wish is granted <waves wand> oh dear, didn't work. :(

Or to put it another way, she loved Richard less than having a family.

Okay.

Jealousy. Revenge. Frustration.

SS

Go watch Rachel in 121 "TOW the Fake Monica".

I agree about her improvement.

VSG

We could. Go on then. :)

Oohhh! Please. But then listening to Rachel's older sister in the uncut version of 302 "TOW No-one's Ready" only makes the pain worse... :(

Check.

So I realised, 31 paragraphs later. :)

Me too, but not in the way that you or Claire want him. ;)

Familiarity breeds contempt?

Ah. We think of it like that, but does he?