The bottom line....

This season has been so bad because last season was so good.

The relationships that were intriguing and unpredictable last year are now stale, uninteresting, and predictable.

Stories about Rachel having a baby and Joey falling in love have now been replaced by Tulsa, shark porn, boring guys hanging out, and two people that are living together, raising a baby together, have a history together, but are "definitely not intending to ever get together".

Viewers wrote in over the summer clamoring that they were tired of all the soap opera antics, despite the fact that Friends was #1 for the first time ever, and demanded that Ross and Rachel get back together because, hey after all, they are lobsters.

This season should be a perfect example of why normal people should never have a say in the direction of a show's storylines, because the default emotion for them is to choose the safe, no questions route. If we didn't learn by the awful mistake of "Big Brother 1", where television viewers got to decide who they wanted to stay and ended up keeping the most uninteresting people in the house, we are certainly learning it now.

And while the closed-minded R&R fans that pervade the internet think the show is in top shape while those two are together, general interest in the show continues to dissipate. It's a real testament though that despite the drop in quality, it still looks better than most other shows out there, which sadly doesn't say a whole lot.

Let's hope the show ends with a bang and not a whimper...

[email] (Imus) writes:

Lest we forget: "crazy plate lady"

[email] (Imus) wrote in message news:...

Nonsense. By relationships, I suppose you're referring to Joey's sickly and nauseating crush on Rachel. There was nothing 'intriguing' about it. It was treated as innapropriate and impossible by all concerned on the show so it never had a chance. Joey was uncharacteristically timid and neutered in matters of seduction so the whole relationship seemed almost incestuous. But worse, the problem was what it did to the atmosphere of the six Friends. Remember in TOW The Tea Leaves Joey entering Central Perk and the group can't even talk to each other? The whole show practically imploded right there. That's why in the next episode that storyline was rapidly forgotten. It was only revived in the season finale as a phony cliffhanger stunt.

Tulsa, in case you didn't know, was a means for the writers to introduce some challenges to Monica and Chandler's relationship. The separation had more emotional impact than their petty domestic squabbles last season over secret closets, cleaning ladies, and Monica boots. I thought the shark porn misunderstanding was pretty funny but of course there will always be secondary storylines that seem trivial and unimaginative. It's a cliche that people acting bored is boring, but last season had plenty of similarly stupid storylines, most featuring Ross. If the Ross and Rachel situation seems lacklustre, that's probably the influence of the baby. They are being portrayed as responsible parents before the real question of how they feel about each other is introduced. Since when are they "not intending to ever get together?" If they re-marry at the end of the series, as many suggest, this show will have been more unpredictable than you thought.

There is a difference between a "safe, no questions route" and preferring storylines which have some degree of realism and emotional authenticity. That was the problem with the Joey/Rachel thing -- it never had a chance to go beyond the awkwardnes and difficulty of a childish crush.

Since when? I thought the ratings for the show have never been higher. Even if you don't respect the ratings system, you'd have to admit the show is trying to remain true to the original concept that made it popular in the first place. It is about a group of young people supporting each other in their personal and professional lives. The show started with Ross' unrequited love for Rachel. Now, all these years later, do you really think, with their baby together, he is going to abandon her and go off on his own? What would fans derive from that?

Let's hope the show doesn't end with some stupid phony Seinfeldian stunt that refutes the whole concept of the show.

[email] (Bryan) wrote in message news:...

That's hilarious...there's this little person called "Emmy" that would disagree with you. But what do they know about recognizing quality television...

It was treated as innapropriate and impossible by all

It is incestuous when a close friend falls in love with another, isn't it? So by your standards, Monica and Chandler are in an incestuous marriage, and Ross and Rachel had a baby out of a previously incestuous relationship.

But worse, the problem

It was forgotten because the creators didn't think people cared that much about the idea to continue it.

You even said it yourself that the storyline didn't produce anything remotely significant other than Chandler quitting his job. The difference in the storyline's you brought up last year was that M&C's relationship was the backup storyline to the main one consisting of Rachel, Joey, & Ross, and those silly storylines are there by design. This year the main storylines have gotten dumber than ever before.

More like it's the anticlimatic ending to a relationship several years past it's prime that had been overshadowed last season by the potential of another relationship.

Since when are they "not intending to ever get together?"

If anyone thinks Ross and Rachel marrying at the end of the season is a surprise, they have to be either smoking crack or possess a naivete I can't even fathom.

That was the fault of the creators, who felt an appropriate arc to the storyline would cover 5 episodes and be forgotten, when it clearly shouldn't have been the case.

There's a difference between ratings and general interest. Do you think if Survivor was still a force to be reckoned with like it was early on that Friends' ratings would still be high? By general interest, I'm talking about media attention, and the excitement of tuning into the next episode to find out what happens. That happened last year, but has been nonexistent this year.

Almost everyone agrees this should be the last season, which tells you that they feel the show is starting to run out of gas. No one felt that last season when the creativity was in full swing.

The show started with Ross' unrequited love for Rachel. Now, all these

They seemed to have no problem accepting it when the Joey/Rachel storyline started.

The only way the show ends on a bad note is if they can't make all of the characters happy with their futures. What one thinks will make a character happy is subject to intrepretation.

Johnson Walker is back.

Now that everyone's overdosed on Teletubbies, abrahammy had a cracker and said:

you beat me to it... :-) Anyway, you found a way to get hold of 909?

[email] (Imus) wrote in message news:...

This is your defense for last season -- the Emmys? May I remind you that LeBlanc didn't win one. Many observers commented at the time that Friends only won as an consolation prize for all the years it had been on and the impression it was ending soon. The Emmys are voted on by industry insiders and involve more politics than objective rewards for quality. Remember David Letterman's definition of the Oscars: "A bunch of millionaires giving awards to other millionaires." Putting aside silly awards, one should have the courage to have your own opinion. Where was the 'intrigue' or mystery if Joey told the others it was only a crush and then told Ross -- before speaking to Rachel -- that he was never going to act on his feelings? So, by Joey's own admission, it was not love, there was no passion and no romance. Big intringe there. The great seducer Joey was reduced to a bumbling awkard child too shy to express his attraction. It was sick.

Can't you get past the superficial definition of incest? The point is the relationship was TREATED as incestuous by the fact of Joey's disgust with himself. He thought pursuing Rachel would be innapropriate interference with the mother of Ross' baby. It never had a chance. There was nothing for the audience to empathize with.

Isn't that an admission the storyline wasn't working? I think it's likely the producers saw how destructive the awkwardness between Joey and Rachel was to the atmosphere of the group.

When did I say that? What I said was Tulsa had more challenges with regards to M&C's relationship and therefore an emotional content for the audience to connect with. That's why it was better than last years domestic squabbles over Monica's compulsive cleaning and neatness issues.

It's only anticlimatic if you're not a Ross and Rachel fan. I think they have great chemistry together, especially when they're fighting. That's why, if this is the last season, it should be a very interesting conclusion to the show as the writers introduce the inevitable complications before their big reunion. How could Joey's crush last season overshadow Ross and Rachel this year if it was never allowed to go anywhere? I don't see why you think it was so interesting.

All shows have a limited lifespan as characters age and all the story permutations seemed to have been played out. That doesn't mean you should turn a show upside down with unrealistic plot twists that belie the original concept of the show for the sake of prolonging "interest". That isn't creativity.

There is a difference between curiosity and acceptance. I don't think any of the loyal fans would have accepted Rachel abandoning Ross given how loyal and respectful he has been to her.

[email] (Bryan) wrote in message news:...

Those same observers felt that Friends was the prohibitive favorite for the first time ever. Why didn't "Friends" even get nominated after the 7th season if the show was thought to be winding down the following season?

The Emmys are voted on

Ah I see, so now your defense is that no awards given out on these shows have any basis at all on who gives the best performance for the past year?

I could have sworn I heard Joey tell Ross that it was the first time he ever fell in love...

I can, but you seem to have this idea that the friendship of Joey and Rachel is somehow different in it's dynamic than past relationships of Ross & Rachel and Monica & Chandler. They're the same, so if you claim incest on one, you lay the title on all.

The point

I thought the whole point of Joey's internal struggle to try to deal with his feelings of Rachel was that it was something we were SUPPOSED to empathize with. Unless you have this low opinion of Joey, or you're an R&R fan, you probably did feel for Joey.

Even the producers admitted they received a lot of hate mail for the way they resolved the storyline. You can almost bet it was never meant to be rehashed in the season finale in the first place.

That's no admission that the storyline isn't working, because they were already filming the conclusion of the storyline arc as we were just beginning to watch "Joey Dates Rachel". They didn't commit to it out of fear that R&R fans would bolt the show if they couldn't accept Joey falling in love with Rachel.

So to all fans of the other 4 characters, it IS anticlimatic.

I think

How is it interesting at all if you know the final outcome? Are you willing to accept another unknown actress X coming in and flirting with Ross, Rachel getting jealous, Ross starting to go off with actress X, only to turn around in the end to be with Rachel? That's been done time and time again, why would you find a rehash similar to this exciting in any way?

Of course you don't, you're an R&R fan.

Having Joey fall in love with Rachel is not a "turning the show upside down, unrealistic plot twist", no matter how deep your R&R fandom runs. The fact that they took a perceived risk in changing the dynamic, and that it worked (again, according to the opinions of those that judge quality television), displays rampant creativity.

Ross was dating Mona while Rachel was pregnant for God's sakes!! Why was it ok for him to date someone else but not Rachel?

Oh wait, I know. Mona wasn't perceived as a threat to the Ross & Rachel partnership, but Joey is. That's the bottom line here to your objection to this.

[email] (Imus) wrote in message news:...

Some people are so easily taken in by words. The point I made was if Joey was never going to pursue it, then it couldn't have been anything worthwhile, regardless of what he called it. The relationship was nullified by Joey himself. It was nothing.

Talk about circular reasoning -- the storyline was working but they called it off because there might be a possibility it wasn't working. If you say so.

It's not the destination but the journey. We assume, and I hope, they will get back together but there's always the possibility of something changing them forever. That's why their conflicts are so important to helping them resolve their true feelings for each other. It is how they express themselves that defines their characters and gives richness to the story for the audience to empathize with. Basic story-telling.

Agreed, but I still don't see how Joey's internal conflicts over his feelings for Rachel were so fascinating.

If the only evidence you can cite for last season's creative success are the Emmy awards, then we will have to agree to disagree on this one. There was curiosity for the relationship but I think from a conceptual point of view, in light of Rachel's pregnancy, it was a disaster. That's why, I repeat, it was shut down so abruptly.

They both were dating before Rachel asked Ross to stop for the sake of the baby. He agreed immediately. That's the loyalty and respect I was referring to.

Now you're getting off topic. You cannot defend why Joey's silly little crush from last season was so much more interesting than the expected culmination of Ross and Rachel's nine-year-long relationship, so you're saying I must have something against Joey. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[email] (Bryan) wrote in message news:...

You've got to be kidding...So in addition to thinking that all awards given to actors and shows have zero basis for merit, you now claim that Joey didn't really mean what he said or felt about Rachel.

The point I made was if

Was he intending not to pursue it out of fear of the relationship itself, or did he fear how it might affect Ross? It was clearly the latter, as Joey truly fell for Rachel and still felt concerned about the baby's father. This is a point that can not be denied.

As an R&R fan, even if the storyline was brilliant, you would have likely still bolted the show because that's the primary reason you tune in. It was obvious to everyone outside the R&R fanbase that the storyline got cut too quickly and didn't have much closure, a clear indication that it was working and people weren't ready to drop it.

The idea you've written up would be impossible in the real world. These two have snipped at each other the past few years to the point that there is no love or angst in their tone. I don't think a marriage out of convenience to the show's history is what any fan wants to see.

The basic thing is for the past 5 seasons they rehash the R&R saga the last two episodes of each season, and the first two episodes of the following season, and then drop it the rest of the season. They use the interest of R&R solely for the purpose of cliffhangers to keep people buzzing about the show throught the summer. They used the Joey & Rachel flirtation in that manner for this past season's cliffhanger. To suggest the creators richly create situations over the course of the season in regards to romantic relationships is giving them way too much credit.

Again...of course you don't, you're an R&R fan.

Um...who was Rachel dating? Unless you are comparing Mona to Rachel's half-date with Cash, in which that strains credibility making such a comparison.

If he didn't agree, he would have looked like a complete jerk of a father.

How?

You cannot defend why Joey's silly

In the first place, why am I the one that should be defending? You have failed in defending the reasons why R&R would be realistically a better choice for the show at this time. This isn't a scientific proof we are debating here.

"Imus" wrote in message news:[email]...

The 'falling in love' relationship between Joey and Rachel was one of the worst and most sickening story lines ever on the show.

"Burgers @ Home" wrote in message news:...

Agreed. The idea of two close friends falling in love is the most sickening idea ever brought to this show.

A piece of gentle advice.

Let it go. You will only drive yourself crazy wishing for something that just didn't happen.

Turn on off the TV, go get a date, and enjoy your Christmas.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

I don't want to speak for Bryan, but you really shouldn't rag on him for expressing his opinion. He has every right to express his want for Ross & Rachel as anyone else does. Such opinions shouldn't be scoffed at as a waste of time, as there really isn't a productive use to a message board in the first place, so we are all guilty by merely posting our thoughts.

But it's good to meet a fellow Joey & Rachel fan! Welcome aboard!

Now that everyone's overdosed on Teletubbies, Imus had a cracker and said:

Don't even *bother* pretending you don't know who you're talking to. You're not funny and you're not even original, merely posting the same things in different places under different names over and over again. So, as Claire told you: LET IT GO! Or are you merely trolling this NG out of boredom?

Good bye Footballguy, Johnson Walker, Anonymous, maizeandblue, clairefan.... Did I forget any of your alter egos?

Andr�

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:...

What the hell are you smoking, man? I couldn't understand 90% of what you just said.

But as to the "letting go" of Joey & Rachel, I've got this...um...sneaking suspicion that things are going to be changing real soon.

[email] (Imus) wrote in message news:...

If that's true then Monica and Chandler as a couple was just wrong! They were close friends despite what they said in "The One With the Truth About London".

[email] (Matt) wrote in message news:...

Thank you for making my point.