Joey, a step slow

OK, we'll see, post by post, over a long period of time, how often Joey is portrayed as not being quite on top of things intellectually. The first example I have found in a systematic search is from 102. Here, Joey loses track of an analogy that the others understand.:

Monica: What you guys don't understand is, for us, kissing is as important as any part of it.

Joey: Yeah, right!.......Y'serious?

Phoebe: Oh, yeah!

Rachel: Everything you need to know is in that first kiss.

Monica: Absolutely.

Chandler: Yeah, I think for us, kissing is pretty much like an opening act, y'know? I mean it's like the stand-up comedian you have to sit through before Pink Floyd comes out.

Ross: Yeah, and-and it's not that we don't like the comedian, it's that-that... that's not why we bought the ticket.

Chandler: The problem is, though, after the concert's over, no matter how great the show was, you girls are always looking for the comedian again, y'know? I mean, we're in the car, we're fighting traffic... basically just trying to stay awake.

Rachel: Yeah, well, word of advice: Bring back the comedian. Otherwise next time you're gonna find yourself sitting at home, listening to that album alone.

Joey: (pause)....Are we still talking about sex?<<<

Here's another one, from 104. Joey has a syntax problem.

Scene: Central Perk, everyone is there

Joey: Probably kill myself!

Monica: ..Excuse me?

Joey: Hey, if Little Joey's dead, then I got no reason to live!

Ross: Joey, uh- OMnipotent.

Joey: You are? Ross, I'm sorry.. <<<

Later, in the same episode, Ross has been continually whining about how everything reminds him of Carol. Chandler wants him to get his mind off it, but Joey does not understand.

Ross: Peach pit.

Chandler: Yes, Bunny?

Ross: (points) Peach pit. That night we, uh- we had-

Joey: -Peaches?

Ross: Actually, nectarines, but basically...

Chandler: (to Joey) Could've been a peach.

Ross: Then, uh, then we got dressed, and I-I... I walked her to the- (looks up, realises, and points) -the bus stop... I'm fine.

Joey: Hey, that woman's got an ass like Carol's! (They turn to stare at him.) What? Thought we were trying to find stuff. <<<

And here, from 109, something that indicates a career actor does not know how to apply stage makeup appropriately:

Joey: Hey, hey.

Chandler: Hey.

Phoebe: Hey.

Chandler: And this from the cry-for-help department. Are you wearing makeup?

Joey: Yes, I am. As of today, I am officially Joey Tribbiani, actor slash model.

Chandler: That's so funny, 'cause I was thinking you look more like Joey Tribbiani, man slash woman.<<<

Later in the same episode Joey ends up as the poster boy for VD. He was not informed enough to realize what he'd signed up for.

More later. I have to go. This thread is going to go on for awhile.

It isn't that I particularly dislike Joey or want to knock him; it's just that the preponderance of evidence says he is slow on the uptake at times, less well educated than most and more inclined to come across as stupid than the others on any given day. He most certainly does have intelligent episodes and the others have stupid ones, but Joey-as-idiot is a common comic crutch.

the same can be said for Phoebe, and all shows [comedic] have the same similairty in character traits. The Fool The brainac the goddess [*gag* not exactly] the over-achiever the prep the hippie

those are just terms to generalize their characters - i'm not syaing that each one deifnitley firts into any sort of mold - that' s jsut one way to describe each character [if you were sort of....ignorant]

LuV Always, -- Christineee la Queen ~ AkA JAY PAYTON'S GIRL! ;p

LETS GO METS in '02!

In article , [email] (Christineee la Queen) usenetted:

Well, a *lot* of shows have what I personally think of as a "village idiot" character. The one who's stupid enough that the stupidest members of the mass audience find him funny and clueless. At least, I think that's the goal.

I was thrilled when 3rd Rock From the Sun and Newsradio turned the "village idiot" into someone who was creatively weird, rather than just dumb.

Most of the time, Joey is just dumb, often lacking in even rudimentary common sense. Good-hearted, but dumb. Phoebe is creatively weird.

wg

On Mon, 27 May 2002, abrahammy stated this considered view. Waking from my doze, I hastily scrawled -

Remember how he spent high school :

Quickly, before work. This is 111. Joey can hear a conversation and Ross cannot. However, Ross still seems to understand it better than Joey does.

everything.

Ross: You're kidding.

Joey: No, no. He said "When are you gonna grow up and start being a mom?"

Ross: Wow!

Joey: Then she came back with "The question is, when are you gonna grow up and realise I have a bomb?"

Ross: 'Kay, wait a minute, are you sure she didn't say "When are you gonna grow up and realise I am your mom?"

Joey: That makes more sense.<<<

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:cEzI8.1644$[email]...

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<SNIP> I'm sure there are many, however the worst thing for me is the inconsistency. He's grown so much as a character in season eight, but the writers keep throwing "dumb Joey" jokes back at us. For example, in 822, when he tries to add up $500 and $500, I was literally cringing. Why do the writers keep trying it on?!

Owen

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

This is a pointless exercise, Claire.

A friend of mine has a new boyfriend. The first time I saw him was at an athletics meeting, where he came third in the 200 metres.

The other three times I've met him were at her house, sitting on the couch with one leg up, strapped in bandages.

Can this man run, or is he a cripple?

People who are cripples never run.

People who are athletes sometimes run, sometimes they happen not to be running, and occasionally they cannot run.

If you know someone who sometimes runs, even if only occasionally, then they are a runner. Not half a runner. Not a cripple.

With Joey, listing a hundred occasions of apparent stupidity is a worthless exercise, if there exists even one example of cleverness.

And in fact you have ignored two such examples in 101.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

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A reasonable statistical sample will determine, not if he's a cripple, but if he's an accident-prone athlete.

I've got over a hundred to go. You don't have to like it, but I can go on like this for days. Owen's bewilderment is a good barometer of the situation.

By the way, I don't think Joey is always stupid. I do think he's a swiss army knife and they pull out whatever blade, sharp or dull, they want at the time. But there IS evidence that the dull blade is there and you seem awfully set against admitting this rather harmless fact.

We're up to 112 now, and Joey doesn't seem to understand that it is Ben's gender, not Monica's which is in doubt:

couldn't not know, I mean, if, if the doctor knows, and Carol knows, and Susan knows....

Monica: And Monica knows...

Ross: Wha, heh, how could you know, I don't even know!

Monica: Carol called me to thank me for the lasagna, I asked, she told me.

Joey: So what's it gonna be? (Monica whispers in Joey's ear. Ross gets up and waves arms frantically in protest)

Ross: Wait-oh-hey-huh, oh great now he knows, and I don't know!

Monica: I'm sorry, I'm just excited about being an aunt!

Joey: Or an uncle... <<<

In 113 Joey's slowness in grasping figurative language annoys his dad:

is, it's with two different women.

Joey: Oh man. Please tell me one of 'em is Ma.

Mr. Tribbiani: Of course, course one of 'em's Ma. What's the matter with you.<<<

"abrahammy" wrote in message

it

Did we see two different episodes? That line wasn't supposed to show that he is stupid but that he is mad at his dad. Come on, no way was he stupid in this episode. Infact, that episode showed us the family values that he holds and how'd be a stand up should he fall in love one day.

Are you looking to find dumb Joey moments to prove your point or are you looking to find a dumb Joey in every episode regardless?

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:ad2mbn$[email]...

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That particular line shows that Joey failed to hear the implications of his father's comment.

Remember, *I* think he's a swiss army knife, and occasionally as sharp as anyone. What I'm really just doing is trying make Tennant less angry at people who think Joey is dumb. There IS evidence to that effect, and it's not really an interpretation that should lead to comments about "people like you." Of course there's also evidence to the contrary, but not nearly as much of it.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

I still don't think that line was supposed to make him sound stupid. He had just found out that his father is having an affair and doesn't really know if his father still loves his mother or not. For all he knows, Tribbiani Senior might be playing the field quite a bit with two women.

If you knew a guy like Joey in RL, would you think that he is a complete idiot because he is usually like that even though he has shown considerable intelligance from time to time? I find your husband's analysis much better; he is a casual viewer, after all. Joey does lack education and hence cannot grasp many of the things the others can.

Priya

In message , p r i y a writes

That's the way I took it as well, maybe Joey was judging his father by his own standards :)

On Fri, 31 May 2002 10:35:12 +0100, Sean Black wrote:

Me too. When I first saw this, my first reaction was similar to Joey's. Apart from Joey telling Ross about all the siblings he had in 111 TOW Mrs. Bing, we didn't have any particular proof that Tribbiani Sr. loved his wife in 113 TOW the Boobies. Therefore, when he says that sentence, it only makes him look even worse since one automatically believes that Tribbiani Sr. has not only been cheating on his wife with Ronni, the pet mortician, but with other women as well. Also, Tribbiani Sr. wasn't the best at making things clear to his son while he was talking to him. If we take a look at the lines before this particular clip:

Joey: Sure. So how long you been... (Goes back to chopping) Mr. Tribbiani: Remember when you were a little kid, I used to take you to the navy yard and show you the big ships? Joey: Since then?! Mr. Tribbiani: No, it's only been six years. I just wanted to put a nice memory in your head so you'd know that I wasn't always such a terrible guy.

Now, anybody would immediately think that Tribbiani Sr. had cheated on his wife for a long time. So can we blame Joey for thinking his father cheated on his wife with two women? I certainly don't think so.

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

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Its not about education!! Can you please take a look at BJs examples? They do not show the lack of education...but a lack of "fastness" or in other words...he is extremely slow. Phoebe lacks education but she's not slow.

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:...

Umm..just because we don't see many slow Phoebe moments anymore doesn't mean she never had them. Oh, are we to assume that Phoebe has matured? How many slow Joey moment have seen this season that doesn't show consistancy error? (That addition joke and vermont joke don't count) Why is it so hard for people to accept that Joey's character has grown in leaps since the show began and he has matured too? In your posts with Tennant, you have said that your slow friends are never smarter than you. In that case, we can hardly call Joey slow, can we? He isn't mentally incapacitated. If we take an average person and count all his stupid and smart moves, very likely we'll end up with more stupid ones. Sofya, Joey isn't dumb, he isn't a genius but he is an average guy who has his clever and dull moments, okay?

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

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I don't think anyone is denying that Joey has had both of those moments you refer to. The point is that he has had an excess of dumb moments compared to clever ones. Some people (Tennant) think that if you do something smart once, that negates all the dumb things you have done ( I don't agree with that) and others are trying to say that a person can be considered dumb while still having some clever moments from time to time. Personally I think that Joey is very slow at times. His dumb moments outnumber his clever ones by far. I don't think that Joey is an average guy who has his clever and dull moments. I also don't understand why you call his good moments clever but his bad ones simply dull and avoid using the word dumb or slow. Being dull has nothing to do with being dumb or slow. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I really cant understand why something so obvious is bringing such controversy. Joey's character is that of a guy who has his slow moments but makes up for that in so many other areas. Everyone has had their dumb moments in the show but Joey stands out from the rest. Dig up anything you want for anyone else but Joey cant be beaten in the "dumb moments" category. I agree with you that Joey has grown and shown some maturity but he is still the slowest of all six.

"Dennis" wrote in message news:[email]...

If I knew a guy like Joey in real life, he would not be subject to the whims of writers who resort to caricature. Remember, Joey would not act like this is real life. A lot of things in the show are not very realistic. A friend I have in real life would not be uttering that many jokes per minute, either. This is the genesis of much of their silly behavior.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why not? I think they do.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that Joey's character

Why is it so hard for you to accept that he's still frequently being portrayed as slow? And why does this offend you so much? Do you realize how silly Marta Kauffman would think the Internet People were being if she saw this debate?

It's OK for you to continue to believe that, sure. But most people tend to think this is a pretty obvious point, and for the most part, a general consensus that Joey is more likely to say something dumb than bright on any given day is likely to continue. Joey is simply not portrayed as an average guy, at least not compared to his friends. It is neither unreasonable nor offensive to say so; this is like arguing that Rachel is not unduly interested in shopping.

Here's another example: Joey seems to have an awfully limited idea what it means to say you know how to fix radiators in 119:

for something...

Joey: A monkey.

Chandler: Yes have you seen any?

Woman No. 1: No. No, haven't seen a monkey. Do you know anything about fixing radiators?

Joey: Um, sure! Did you, uh, did you try turning the knob back the other way?

Woman No. 1: Of course.

Joey: Oh. Then, no.<<<

Later in the same episode, Joey explains why he so enjoyed his higher education:

Joey: I dunno, I loved high school. Y'know? It was just four years of parties and dating and sex.<<<

This explains why he is not well educated.

Then, in 120, Joey does not understand the point of Monica's question as she worries about Rachel's dating mistakes:

lunch at the Russian Tea Room, and I had that chicken, where y'know you poke it and all the butter squirts out...

Phoebe: Not a good day for birds...

Rachel: Then we took a walk down to Bendall's, and I told him not to, but he got me a little bottle of Chanel...

Ross: That's nice... now, was that before or after you told him to stop calling, stop sending you flowers and to generally leave you alone, hmm?

Rachel: Right,.. well,.. we never actually got to that... Oh, it was just so nice to see him again, y'know? It was comfortable, it was familiar... it was just nice!

Ross: That's, that's nice twice!

Monica: Rachel, what's going on? I mean isn't this the same Barry who you left at the altar?

Joey: Duh, where've you been?<<<

Here's kind of a big one, from 121. Joey is trying to choose a stage name. The fact that he does not recognize obviously bad names is the main thrust of the humor. Chandler, unfortunately, exploits this for his own amusement.

Joey: No, still too ethnic. My agent thinks I should have a name that's more neutral.

Chandler: Joey... Switzerland?

(The waitress brings their coffee.)

Joey: Plus, y'know, I think it should be Joe. Y'know, Joey makes me sound like I'm, I dunno, this big. (Waitress looks at him funny) Which I'm not.

Chandler: Joe...Joe...Joe...Stalin?

Joey: Stalin...Stalin...do I know that name? It sounds familiar.

Chandler: Well, it does not ring a bell with me...

Joey: (Writes it down) Joe Stalin. Y'know, that's pretty good.

Chandler: Might wanna try Joseph.

(Joey visibly thinks 'Of course!' and writes it down.)

Joey: Joseph Stalin. I think you'd remember that!

Chandler: Oh yes! Bye Bye Birdie, starring Joseph Stalin. Joseph Stalin is the Fiddler on the Roof.<<<

later, Chandler's a real jerk. Joey was relying on him to keep him from making bad factual errors. CB let him down for unkind reasons, and Joey still doesn't even realize it.

Chandler: You're kidding.

Joey: Apparently he was this Russian dictator who slaughtered all these people. You'd think you would've known that!

Chandler: Y'know, you'd think I would've.<<<

At the end of the episode, he still hasn't gotten it right. This one isn't even about education; he's just slow to miss the inappropriateness of his choice:

Actor: (Very melodramatically, and very badly) Oh, that I were a glove upon that hand, that I might... touch thy cheek...

Casting Director No. 1: That's fine, thank you.

Casting Director No. 2: Next. (Joey walks onstage)

Joey: Hi, uh, I'll be reading for the role of Mercutio.

Casting Director No. 2: Name?

Joey: Holden McGroin.<<<

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

That merely demonstrates that Joey did not know very much about radiators beyond turning the knob. That doesn't make him dumb, it is ignorance. For all you know, he later *learnt* what to do.

However in 209 "TOW Phoebe's Dad", Ross turned the knob the wrong way on Monica's radiator, and broke it. At that point he ran into his ignorance about turning off radiators. That doesn't make him dumb, but if Joey had done that, he'd have been lambasted for it.

Then a whole apartment-full of people sweated in great discomfort, because they did not know how to turn off the radiator. Surely many of them must have tried, to accept that it was impossible is a dumb thing to do, but even so that wouldn't mean that they *are* dumb.

Also Mr.Treeger, a professional in these matters, totally failed to turn off the radiator, stating it could not be done until Tuesday (this was Christmas Eve) when he would buy a new knob.

Even so, Ross foolishly ignored what Mr.Treeger said, and bribed him $50 to get a knob straight away. Mr.Treeger took his money, and then repeated that the store didn't open until Tuesday, and accused Ross of the same lack of comprehension that you accuse Joey of.

Then, after all these people failed & suffered, dumbass Joey arrived.

JOEY: Hey, you mind if I turn the heat down?

MONICA: We could have used that kind of thinking earlier.

He saw the knob was broken, so he made a careful examination, reached down, and then cleverly turned off the radiator at the bleed valve.

That's right. Yet funnily enough, you have just glossed over a prime example of Joey being dumb. He chose to waste his time having sex with dozens of young girls, when he should have been getting his education.

And if I'd have had the chance, I'd have done the same as Joey did.

Curiously, Joey was accusing Monica of being dumb, in just the same way that you, Sofya & others accuse him.

This is ignorance. Not stupidity.

How many of today's audience know about Joseph Stalin?

Here you have missed the point that Joey learnt who Joseph Stalin was.

One attribute of people who really are dumb, is no desire to learn.

Here is one of your rare correct examples. Joey should have noticed that the name (presumably supplied by Chandler) sounded like "holding my groin". But tell me something Claire. You are a very clever person, but have you never been caught out by a prank like that? I have.

Tennant

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

Most of the examples which Claire is producing are indeed about lack of education, (or IMO not examples of dumb reactions at all).

As for "fastness", there are plenty of examples of Joey being quick on the uptake. Meanwhile, about the only one of the six who stays on the ball is Monica. The others are all slow from time to time, especially Chandler who is often very slow. But sadly these examples are ignored.

Tennant

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

Rubbish. Come on, Claire, you are usually brighter than this.

That particular line shows that Joey succeeded in hearing implications in his father's comment that so far have eluded you.

Well, why are you wasting your time on this pointless exercise?

Someone who sometimes does dumb things & sometimes does clever things, is clever. Someone who is dumb just does dumb things.

You could list a hundred examples of dumbness, and one counter-example of cleverness will negate them all. And there are far more than just one.

Claire, you are not listening to me.

I am not angry at anyone, including people who think Joey is dumb.

I am annoyed by people who airily ignore it when Joey is clever.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

omg...so now you are saying that not only is Joey not dumb but that he is also smarter than us?

you

as

I do not think it negates it.

I think that a few times he has been clever but that does not "negate" the fact that he has done many dumb things, has acted stupid, and is very slow most of the time.

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:...

Really? Look what one wrong example has done to her argument already.

Priya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

I've never claimed that Joey is a genius, that is a word put in my mouth by those who disagree with me. He's just not dumb.

As for "smarter than us", you'll have to define "us".

What I was saying was that Claire seems to have missed the implication of Joseph's comment - if the guy was cheating on his wife, and he was in love with two women, then there are *two* possibilities. Either he still loves his wife, despite the way he treats her; or he has *two* mistresses on the go, which is even worse.

Dumbass Joey evaluated both of these possibilities, chose the correct one, and then checked with his father that it was indeed so.

It's not a question of counting dumb versus clever actions, to then calculate which predominates. Everybody does dumb things, so finding dumb examples proves nothing. What you must do is evaluate all of Joey's actions, and show that none of them are clever.

I could produce a list of clever actions that contained far more than a few entries, but it's unnecessary since only a few are required, and you already concede that they exist.

BTW, in the above paragraphs, "clever" does not mean super-intelligent, it just means not being dumb, so please don't misinterpret that. :)

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

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I think the problem is we have different definitions of "dumb"(although I decided to use stupid/slow from now on based on your definition) and "clever."

Sofya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

Sofya, why can't you for once open your mind, take a positive attitude, and notice all the times that Joey actually does quite clever things?

Tennant

Here's another example of Joey's limited vocabulary, from 114.

off. I'm not even sure what slathering is, but I definitely want to be a part of it.<<<

And from TOW Two Parts, 116, here he is once again not absolutely sure he's following the conversation. Phoebe is angry because he's going out with Ursula.

(Joey nods his head.)

Phoebe: Have you two, you know... like... you know... you know... yet?

Joey: Well, not that it's any of your business, but, no, we haven't, okay?

(Joey walks toward the door, then hesitates and turns back.)

Joey: You meant sex, right?<<<

In this scene from 117, Joey does not show the emotional depth he exhibited later in the series, and his responses to Ross here seem overly literal and don't properly capture the depth of the analogy. Fortunately, it is Chandler who knows what to say.

on this field, and they, they hike me the baby... and I, I know I've gotta do something 'cause the Tampa Bay defence is comin' right at me.

Joey: Tampa Bay's got a terrible team.

Ross: Right, but, it is just me and the baby, so I'm thinkin' they can take us. And so I uh, hah-hah, I just heave it down field.

Chandler: What are you crazy? That's a baby!

Joey: He should take the sack?

Ross: Anyway, suddenly I'm down field, and I realise that I'm the one who's supposed to catch him, right? Only I know there is no way I'm gonna get there in time, so I am running, and running, and that, that is when I woke up. See I, I am so not ready to be a father.

Chandler: Hey, you're gonna be fine. You're one of the most caring, most responsible men in North America. You're gonna make a great dad.

Joey: Yeah, Ross. You and the baby just need better blocking.<<<

Note: none of this in any way negates Joey's value as a friend, effectiveness as a character, or general worth. It mostly means that if I play a game of Trivial Pursuit, I am more likely to ask Ross, Chandler or Monica to be my teammate, and if I need somebody who can think on her feet, I'd really rather have Phoebe around.

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

That's ignorance, not stupidity.

And without having heard the word before, Joey has pretty well figured out for himself what it means. That's not knowledge, it's cleverness.

What a masterpiece of English communication is this sentence...

..and Joey *understood* it!

All that shows is Joey *did* understand what they were talking about, and he was making sure. If he'd said "You meant football, right" that would show he'd failed to understand. But more than that, if Joey was dumb, he would not have checked - dumbasses don't know nuffin.

This sounds like an average response to me, not very clever, not very dumb either. Joey did agree with what Chandler said. Although he kept with the metaphor, he didn't ask him what he meant about being a dad.

So would I. Those are the three who were given a decent education (unlike Phoebe), and didn't waste it (unlike Joey & Rachel).

Me too, she's easily the smartest of the bunch, and if it hadn't been for her tragic childhood, she'd be formidable. But there are examples of Joey thinking much faster on his feet than Chandler can.

Tennant

In article , [email] (Tennant Stuart) usenetted:

Uh, he could get a rough meaning from the tone of her voice.

wg

In article , [email] wrote:

This is exactly what I mean that people dismiss it when Joey is clever, (I am not claiming he's a genius). If he should understand a word, that is overlooked. If he doesn't understand a word, that's regarded as being dumb, even though in fact it's merely ignorance.

But when he cleverly figures out the meaning of a word he's never heard before, then he merely went by the tone of voice, like a pet dog.

Tennant

In article , "p r i y a" wrote:

Sadly, she's just wasting her time.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Whereas you spend your time doing interesting things huh?

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:u_XI8.1957$[email]...

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Claire, i could help you out on this task. I have listed about 15-20 per year that really stand out, that i can share if you want me to.

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

That was indeed an error on Joey's part, but this proves absolutely nothing. To show that Joey is stupid, you must prove that he has never been clever. We are all dumb more often than we would like.

Like on this next one...

Claire, you have your dull blade out, you've totally misunderstood this.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Ben's

I totally disagree with such logic. Even the dumbest people have smart moments at times. Nobody has to prove that someone is dumb by showing he has never done anyhting clever in his life. Wake up man. Stop twisting things around all the time and badmoutrhing others for experessing their opinion when it doesn't coincide with yours. Joey is SLOW. Get it? No, you don't cause you cant see me but thats ok. I am not typing this for you to see anyway.

has

I find it very interesting that a person could publicly condemn a person for "badmouthing others" and fail to notice that this is exactly what everyone is doing by speaking of and calling attention to Joey's implied dumbness.

Katie

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:FYUJ8.4290$[email]...

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opinion

for

Well, perhaps we should keep in mind the difference between taking note of
moments when Friends writers resort to caricature  and actually criticizing
the behavior or opinions of a living person.   At any rate, everybody may
argue me as often as they wish, but this thread is not going to end until
824 because folks should not be cowed, shamed, or belittled into pretending
they don't see the (almost stereotypically) obvious because a strong-willed
person objects for some reason.   Remember that Joey's dumbness is really
just for humor.  The writers clearly like him very much. So does just about
everybody.

Now, is this issue about whether or not the writers often write jokes in which Joey appears dumb, or is it somehow about Joey's worth as a person, or the whole love triangle? I regard them as entirely separate issues.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Well, I think its pretty obvious that none of the six characters are the same as when the show begun. So, if you want to show dumb Joey moments, you should point out them out from the eighth season to be fair to the character's development over the years. Plus, I'm sure I can dig up enough dumb Ross moments this season and we can conclude that Joey and Ross have the same IQ ;)

Seriously, I really think you should cite your examples from the eighth season. Joey is not the same guy we saw in the first season.

Claire, the way I see it, your argument that Joey is dumb is just as strong willed as your accusations about Tennant's arguments. You see Joey as the big hearted dope. You seem to disregard any argument that is presented to counter them. Your 'De Nile' joke comes to mind. :)

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

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person

everyone

dumbness.

of

criticizing

may

until

pretending

strong-willed

really

about

I've been waiting for someone to thrust Ross into this argument...I knew it would happen sooner than later. I noticed those that are stating that Joey is not dumb are also those that are pounding on Ross for every thing they consider a mistake. Ross in no way should be compared to Joey. While Ross isn't the playboy that Joey is and therefore makes some stupid mistakes with women...Ross is the only one who has had many long-term relationships showing his dedication and also a knowledge of what women want emotionally versus Joey knowing what women want only sexually.

A dumb person does not always do dumb things. A slow/stupid person can have clever moments but they do not outnumber his slow/stupid moments (IMO).

Sofya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

of

criticizing

may

until

pretending

strong-willed

really

about

Oh, this will be going on for awhile. I'll get there in a couple of weeks, I promise. My approach is what it is for the sole purpose of being systematic.

Does this mean that you do in fact see my point based on first season information? Like I said, I WILL get to season eight. We've got all summer to find something to talk about besides the cliffhanger finale.

person, or

Well, remember, that was just a joke. If you don't take it seriously, then I won't take offense at the Hippo Crissy statement. However, notice what I'm doing here. I have been primarily quoting the scripts, word for word, example by example. If you would like to do a dumb-off regarding Ross and Joey when I get to season eight, I guess that could be arranged, but the criteria must be the same. I have not, in any of my examples, listed something where Joey made an unwise choice; they have been exclusively examples of him not understanding something somebody said to him, misunderstanding words, missing implications of something said, or missing what is generally considered to be common knowledge.

Please note the number of people who can't believe we are even having this conversation. The idea of Joey as slow is the generally accepted one. Only extremists see him otherwise. It would be less silly for me to deny the existance of Mental Geller, which I do not do.

And again, why do you object so much? I don't object to your interpretation so much as I question your aggravation and resentment when other people say Joey is stupid.

Here's another example from 123. Joey is not good at trash talking.

Lydia: Knick fan?

Joey: Oh, yeah.

Lydia: Oh, boy, do they suck.

Joey: Hey, listen, lady....(sees that she's pregnant)...whoa.

Lydia: Look, look at your man, Ewing. Nice shot. You know what, he couldn't hit water if he was standing on a boat.

Joey: Oh yeah? And who do you like?

Lydia: The Celtics.

Joey: The Celtics? Ha. They couldn't hit a boat if...wait. They suck, alright?<<<

Here's a situation where I'm going to hope Joey has, in fact, become more knowledgeable, and agree that it might be possible.

Nurse: It's just her water breaking. Calm down, will you?

Joey: (panicked) Water breaking, what do you mean? What's that, water breaking?

Nurse: (to Joey) Breathe, breathe, breathe.<<<

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:LhbK8.1346$[email]...

interpretation

say

My personal objection to it is I do not believe in speaking negatively of other people. In fact, my faith forbids lashon hara, which is discrediting another, telling uncomplimentary things about him EVEN IF THEY ARE TRUE. Releasing words is like ripping open a feather pillow as in it is impossible to repair the damage, because you can never re-gather and take back all the feathers.

I also do not think it is our place to judge each other. Saying Joey is stupid judges him. IMO this is worse then speaking negatively about his actions. To systematically account for a person each and every action for the sole purpose of making him look less respectful in the eyes of others is like a witch hunt. I mean after all we are human anybody can be portrayed as less than perfect if we look at each and every action they have done. To speak negatively of another is not wrong for you and you have a right to your opinion. For me it is forbidden, but I am only human and I do act inappropriately at times. If you went back through all my posts (what you know of my actions) you would find I have spoken negatively of Ross' parenting skills.

couldn't

Why is not being able to talk trash or to speak negatively of another equal to being stupid? I believe we live in the world we see. If we look for the good we see it. If we look and speak of the negative then that is what we dwell on. IMO Joey can not talk trash, because he is not practiced in that action. To me that is a good thing. He is intelligent in the sense that rather than dwelling on negative stuff he looks and speaks of the good stuff instead. So when he tries to talk trash it is difficult for him.

Breaking of the water is an expression. It is amniotic fluid that leaks out. Not water, but baby urine. In addition the only way to break water or seperate hydrogen and oxygen is with electricity. It would panic me to think someone was having electric shocks able to break their water apart.

to

To me clarifying things is not stupid. Joey could have been being polite and letting her see he understood the play on words. My quantium physics professor is horrendously bad at understanding slang and implications that the students make in conversation. He is always restating what he heard to clarify the context in simple, direct statments that can not be wrongly interpretated. He is definetly not slow or stupid, although many students make fun of this action, in fact he recently won a Nobel prize.

As opposed to the numerous cities in the United States named China: China Lake, California China Lake, Maine China, Alabama China, Louisiana China, Indiana China Hat Idaho South China, Maine China, Maine China, New York China, Texas

Again Joey was clarifying. He ignored Ross' slight. He did not make Ross look stupid by stating he was wondering if he meant the nearby town of China, NY. Some of us are not good at geography. I am not. In fact this quarter I took a geophysics course, because I needed at least one easy class. Well, the midterm had a question about how Central America was formed and linked North and South America after they seperated. I had to get up and look at the map on the wall to remember where central and south america are, exactly, which is really bad considering I live in North America. I may not be good at geography, but I often drive down the freeway at high speeds calculating the mathmatical formulas that would mimic the shape of the local landscape. We all have our weak and strong areas.

To me Joey was talking about sex. There was a recent article in Cosmopolotian about how some woman claim they maintain their sexual innocence, virginity, because they only have oral sex or anal sex. So of course the two sides are debating what is and is not considered sex. Joey is not alone in this. In addition how smart is it for Monica to suggest he engage in a sexual senerio when he is trying not to release sperm? I'm not a man, but I have very little control over my orgasms, sometimes they just happen. I would assume for a man that if they are positioned between a naked woman's thighs that they are going to be aroused. So how easy would it be for an accidental touch to result in an orgasm? Maybe he was confused about a way to be there for her that did not include intimate touching, because he knew the slippery slope he would be on if he had her naked in his bed.

Katie

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:QQiK8.8411$[email]...

impossible

the

Katie... Joey is a sitcom character. He's not a person. It is the job of the writers to make them funny, and they usually do that by exposing their foibles. I would not say these things of a person I knew like Joey because there is no real person as cartoonishly dense as Joey. He is a figment of the imagination, often portrayed as foolish to get a laugh out of the audience. I've met people who didn't catch on to things as quickly as some others did, but nobody who ever behaved like Joey.

You don't seem to have any problem with judging Ross; in fact, the last time you did it, you had a good and effective argument.

Saying Joey is

is

Yes. We are human. So is Matt LeBlanc. Joey Tribbiani is not human. He's a sitcom caricature.

anybody can be portrayed as

Yes, I saw that. Shrug. Don't worry about it. He's a sitcom character too. At least you did your homework pretty well.

equal

In this case, it's more the inability to create an effective analogy. It was being used for trash talking, but the thing that made me pull this is that he couldn't pull off a particular linguistic feat.

If we look and speak of the negative then that is what we dwell on.

To

So

Blink. Are we talking about the same character? OK, I'm not going to go back through and find every time he said something unkind about another person - like Janice, or even Chandler and Ross at times for that matter. There is no evidence in the script to support this observation, and much to discount it.

more

out.

someone

Either that, or he has no idea what's involved with childbirth and he panicked in ignorance. I think this is really stretching.

was

Chandler,

meant

and

Apply Occam's Razor.

In which case I've probably heard of him, since I record this kind of information for a Fugitive Facts database at my library. What is his name?

I would be interested to know if your quantum physics professor has English as his primary language, or is very much older than his students. Colloquialisms come much more easily to a person who is a native speaker of the language; new slang is also the province of the young, and older people are more inclined to remember the slang of their own youth than new usage. I'm already beginning to notice a growing antiquation in my own colloquial usage. Joey has known English from the crib and he wasn't even thirty at the time of this scene.

to

There is very little chance the writers intended this line the way you have interpreted it. Remember, these are punchlines to jokes written for a very light piece of comedy. If I said I was going to Paris, most people would assume I meant the home of the Eiffel Tower. Only a few Texans might ask if I meant Paris, Texas. When discussing a place with a famous name, most people assume the more famous location unless given more information.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion on this, Katie, but I think you may be the only person who came out of this scene with this interpretation. Remember, our job is to determine what the writers were saying, not what we would be saying if we used the same words.

up?

we're

Well, Joey wasn't talking about much of anything. Monica was making hints, and he wasn't able to figure it out.

There was a recent article in

No, Joey wasn't debating anything. Joey was trying to figure out what Monica was suggesting. Later on, he did, and took her advice.

Joey is

a

naked

about

he

And maybe he didn't understand Monica.

In respect to your faith, I will not discuss this with you any further, as I would not wish to cause you further discomfort in questioning your interpretation of the material presented. It does seem to me that if you disapprove of speaking ill of others, Friends must be rather unpleasant for you to watch; all six characters speak ill of their close friends often, for what is often grossly unjust reasons. That is, in fact, one of the primary vehicles the writers use for humor.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:kOjK8.190$[email]...

people

of

discrediting

TRUE.

because

some

If he is not a person how does hehave the personal trait of being stupid? Obviously I am looking at the show differently than you. I see a person being played by an actor.

time

I did not judge Ross. What I previously wrote was:

"To me these actions are not indicative of a parent who places the proper priority on their child."

I was judging his parenting skills through his actions. I was not judging him as a person. I also went on to say I am only human and at times I feel it is necessary to speak out. This was one of those times. If you remember I spoke out, because you judged Rachel as an "unfit mother" and took her child away from her. I then wrote the post on Ross as a parent to show that Ross has demonstrated actions that are unacceptable. At no time did I say Ross is "anything."

for

others

He's

you

instead.

to

But it was perfectly acceptable for Ross to make the seahorse remark. So it is okay for him to refer to uncommon scientific knowledge, but not for Joey. Two different standards are not fair.

fruit

most

The simplest explanation is not ALWAYS true.

that

to

students

name?

English

His name is Alan J. Heeger, professor of the Institute of Polymers and Organic Solids and Departments of Physics and Materials at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He was born in Sioux City, Iowa and is married with two children. Although he is not the professor for my class, we were lucky enough to have him take over for two weeks that our professor was out on research. It does not matter if English is his primary language, which it is, or if he is much older. That would imply you are judging the actions of two different people by two different standards. What is relevant is the fact you are willing to excuse this trait in a Nobel prize winner, but you will not accept any other way of looking at the actions of Joey.

of

people

guys

up

have

very

if

think

hints,

not

be

because

I

for

for

primary

Friends is not unpleasant for me to watch. The characters are not bound by the same rules that I attempt to follow. When I watch Friends I see people interacting. They all have their good and bad moments. I just don't dwell on their weaknesses. You asked why someone would object and I told you why I object to Joey being labeled stupid. I then tried to show other ways to look at the actions of Joey that do not imply he is stupid. However, you only see these actions as stupid and disregard how others see these actions. Everyone is entitled to hold their own opinion.

Katie

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:mZkK8.13840$[email]... >

We seem to have a different frame of reference regarding how one should treat fictional characters.

I believe we can probably judge Rachel's parenting skills through her actions, too, specifically in 820.

I was not judging

This was one of those times. If you remember I

child

Well, Katie, one of those parents was going to lose that kid if Joey got to be with Rachel no matter what. Right now with current living arrangements they both have custody of her. Joey as stepdad means Ross has his child taken away from him. And I'm serious - if Joey marries Rachel now they ARE going to have to leave town. These people just live too close together.

I then wrote the post on Ross as a parent to show that Ross

is

Remember, in the post that followed yours, I first praised you for finding a arguing point, and I then reminded you that if this is the standard, and Ross has failed, then all of the Friends have demonstrated actions that are unacceptable, and some worse than Ross - both Rachel (who has no knowledge of children at all) and Joey (who leaves them on the bus.)

leaks

it

Joey.

What? Ross actually referred to uncommon scientific knowledge, and said so in a way that the audience explicitly heard. Joey panicked, saying he didn't know what water breaking was, and you said it was because he freaked out about electrical currents which Joey never discussed.

polite

No, but your explanations do not have any evidence to back them. We have a laugh line, and you have come up with a detailed explanation of why it was actually just ordinary conversation. In the case of a sitcom laugh line, apply Occam's Razor.

heard

wrongly

of

out

it

Well, yes it does. There are many reasons why a very bright person might feel that conversations need to be restated simply. At any rate, I think it is safe to say that your professor probably does this habitually; if he were a sitcom character, and this was one of the points they used to get laughs, he'd do it every few episodes or so. Joey does not have this as a habit.

That would imply you are judging the actions of

Yep. He's a Nobel prize winner, he's a real person, and he does it all the time in a habit which multiple people recognize. Joey is a sitcom character who wandered through high school at wild parties and you are the only person who has suggested he did this.

Also, your professor makes his own words, and he does it solely for the purpose of communicating. Joey says things that are supposed to make an audience laugh.

bound by

on

look

see

Everyone

In a debate, one person makes a case and then another person presents points which counter that case. Then the first debater generally explains whether or not those arguments makes sense to him in the context they are discussing, and so forth. You are entitled to think that Joey is bright, but I am no more required to find your arguments convincing than you are to find mine so. I do assure you that I do not evaluate Joey by the same standards that I would a person; I don't believe real people generally act the way the Friends do at their worst moments. Now Frasier - often, yes.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:06qK8.447$[email]...

stupid?

proper

I'm sorry, but there is no baby in 820. Rachel does not become a parent until 824 so there is no way to judge her parenting skills until after she becomes a parent.

During the shower Rachel does not recognize a breast pump. I don't see a problem here. She has a length maternity leave and therefore has no need to use a breast pump until she returns to work. Giving a baby a bottle before it is absolutely necessary is bad. It causes nipple confusion. Breastmilk is best direct from the source.

Rachel also does not know what a Diaper Genie is. So what? IMO another usueless baby gadjet. A baby only needs breastmilk for the first several months and the stench from dirty diapers is not comparable to the stench from dirty diapers of a baby on solids or formula. In addition it is not dangerous to leave a newborn on a changing table before they can roll over. Personally I beleve a baby should be in a sling on the mother at all times. However most parent do leave babies lying unattended while they set something outside or leave the room to go to the bathroom. This is not particularily dangerous until the child becomes mobile. Taking care of a newborn is much easier than caring for a toddler. All they do is sleep and eat. Of course, a changing table is another useless gadjet IMO. What is wrong with using a towel on the floor or bed?

Lastly Rachel does not recognize a bassenet. Good for her! Babies belong in the bed next to the mother not in cages called bassenets and cribs.

Why is her lack of knowledge 3 weeks before the birth of her first child a problem? IMO this is very common in new mothers. In addition by the end of the episode she does have significant knowledge on caring for a baby. To me this shows she is capable of looking up and learning what she doesn't know. You can't expect someone to know everything right from the start. In fact I think this is the main reason, in the area, I live in that they send a nurse practioner to your home within the first week to see how you and the baby are getting along.

feel

to

ARE

Nothing in this world is absolute. A marraige between Joey and Rachel does not require them to leave town. Right now they are in the worse possible living arrangement. Neither Ross or Rachel has the space needed to explore new, healthy relationships. It is a good setup for comedy and pain, because it is highly unlikely both with mature at the same right and both will want to move into other relationships at the exact same moment. I no longer believe Ross and Rachel should be in a loving relationship. There is significant fear on both sides, and the love they feel for each other is not equal. As far as Ema is concerned her parents might as well be married, because sooner or later one of the two will leave the only home she has known.

Ross

a

are

I will get back to this thread after I finish my finals. However off the top of my head I would argue Ross' actions were to leave his child with people who were not qualified to care for a child. Remember I do not beleve in unnecessary seperations. If it is unavoidably necessary you make damn sure the person is capable of supervising a child. That means licensing and background checks and making sure they are capable. You do not leave your child with the first available person that is just plain irresponsible.

or

so

freaked

a

implications

University

married

were

which

it

were

laughs,

you

the

character

person

There are also many reasons a less than bright person might feel a converstation needs to be rstated. It is a learning tool. It shows you are not just hearing the concept, but you are actively using it, which increases your memory of it, and you are putting it in a personal context. Joey is a sitcom character that has been developed into a well rounded character. In order to acesses his personal traits it is necessary to look at him as a person. I also wandered through high school at wild parties yet I was accepted at Standford. I choose not to go and traveled in Europe for two years instead. Over a decade later I have returned to school. Does that mean it was less acceptable for me to restate conversations in the years between my high school days and when I returned to University life?

Katie

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:06qK8.447$[email]...

stupid?

proper

I'm sorry, but there is no baby in 820. Rachel does not become a parent until 824 so there is no way to judge her parenting skills until after she becomes a parent.

During the shower Rachel does not recognize a breast pump. I don't see a problem here. She has a length maternity leave and therefore has no need to use a breast pump until she returns to work. Giving a baby a bottle before it is absolutely necessary is bad. It causes nipple confusion. Breastmilk is best direct from the source.

Rachel also does not know what a Diaper Genie is. So what? IMO another useless baby gadget. A baby only needs breastmilk for the first several months and the stench from dirty diapers is not comparable to the stench from dirty diapers of a baby on solids or formula. In addition it is not dangerous to leave a newborn on a changing table before they can roll over. Personally I believe a baby should be in a sling on the mother at all times. However most parent do leave babies lying unattended while they set something outside or leave the room to go to the bathroom. This is not particularly dangerous until the child becomes mobile. Taking care of a newborn is much easier than caring for a toddler. All they do is sleep and eat. Of course, a changing table is another useless gadget IMO. What is wrong with using a towel on the floor or bed?

Lastly Rachel does not recognize a bassinet. Good for her! Babies belong in the bed next to the mother not in cages called bassinets and cribs.

Why is her lack of knowledge 3 weeks before the birth of her first child a problem? IMO this is very common in new mothers. In addition by the end of the episode she does have significant knowledge on caring for a baby. To me this shows she is capable of looking up and learning what she doesn't know. You can't expect someone to know everything right from the start. In fact I think this is the main reason, in the area, I live in that they send a nurse practioner to your home within the first week to see how you and the baby are getting along.

feel

to

ARE

Nothing in this world is absolute. A marriage between Joey and Rachel does not require them to leave town. Right now they are in the worse possible living arrangement. Neither Ross or Rachel has the space needed to explore new, healthy relationships. It is a good setup for comedy and pain, because it is highly unlikely both with mature at the same right and both will want to move into other relationships at the exact same moment. I no longer believe Ross and Rachel should be in a loving relationship. There is significant fear on both sides, and the love they feel for each other is not equal. As far as Emma is concerned her parents might as well be married, because sooner or later one of the two will leave the only home she has known.

Ross

a

are

I will get back to this thread after I finish my finals. However off the top of my head I would argue Ross' actions were to leave his child with people who were not qualified to care for a child. Remember I do not believe in unnecessary separations. If it is unavoidably necessary you make damn sure the person is capable of supervising a child. That means licensing and background checks and making sure they are capable. You do not leave your child with the first available person that is just plain irresponsible.

or

so

freaked

a

implications

University

married

were

which

it

were

laughs,

you

the

character

person

There are also many reasons a less than bright person might feel a conversation needs to be restated. It is a learning tool. It shows you are not just hearing the concept, but you are actively using it, which increases your memory of it, and you are putting it in a personal context. Joey is a sitcom character that has been developed into a well rounded character. In order to assay his personal traits it is necessary to look at him as a person. I also wandered through high school at wild parties yet I was accepted at Stanford. I choose not to go and traveled in Europe for two years instead. Over a decade later I have returned to school. Does that mean it was less acceptable for me to restate conversations in the years between my high school days and when I returned to University life?

Katie

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:06qK8.447$[email]...

stupid?

proper

I'm sorry, but there is no baby in 820. Rachel does not become a parent until 824 so there is no way to judge her parenting skills until after she becomes a parent.

During the shower Rachel does not recognize a breast pump. I don't see a problem here. She has a length maternity leave and therefore has no need to use a breast pump until she returns to work. Giving a baby a bottle before it is absolutely necessary is bad. It causes nipple confusion. Breastmilk is best direct from the source.

Rachel also does not know what a Diaper Genie is. So what? IMO another useless baby gadget. A baby only needs breastmilk for the first several months and the stench from dirty diapers is not comparable to the stench from dirty diapers of a baby on solids or formula. In addition it is not dangerous to leave a newborn on a changing table before they can roll over. Personally I believe a baby should be in a sling on the mother at all times. However most parent do leave babies lying unattended while they set something outside or leave the room to go to the bathroom. This is not particularly dangerous until the child becomes mobile. Taking care of a newborn is much easier than caring for a toddler. All they do is sleep and eat. Of course, a changing table is another useless gadget IMO. What is wrong with using a towel on the floor or bed?

Lastly Rachel does not recognize a bassinet. Good for her! Babies belong in the bed next to the mother not in cages called bassinets and cribs.

Why is her lack of knowledge 3 weeks before the birth of her first child a problem? IMO this is very common in new mothers. In addition by the end of the episode she does have significant knowledge on caring for a baby. To me this shows she is capable of looking up and learning what she doesn't know. You can't expect someone to know everything right from the start. In fact I think this is the main reason, in the area, I live in that they send a nurse practioner to your home within the first week to see how you and the baby are getting along.

feel

to

ARE

Nothing in this world is absolute. A marriage between Joey and Rachel does not require them to leave town. Right now they are in the worse possible living arrangement. Neither Ross or Rachel has the space needed to explore new, healthy relationships. It is a good setup for comedy and pain, because it is highly unlikely both with mature at the same right and both will want to move into other relationships at the exact same moment. I no longer believe Ross and Rachel should be in a loving relationship. There is significant fear on both sides, and the love they feel for each other is not equal. As far as Emma is concerned her parents might as well be married, because sooner or later one of the two will leave the only home she has known.

Ross

a

are

I will get back to this thread after I finish my finals. However off the top of my head I would argue Ross' actions were to leave his child with people who were not qualified to care for a child. Remember I do not believe in unnecessary separations. If it is unavoidably necessary you make damn sure the person is capable of supervising a child. That means licensing and background checks and making sure they are capable. You do not leave your child with the first available person that is just plain irresponsible.

or

so

freaked

a

implications

University

married

were

which

it

were

laughs,

you

the

character

person

There are also many reasons a less than bright person might feel a conversation needs to be restated. It is a learning tool. It shows you are not just hearing the concept, but you are actively using it, which increases your memory of it, and you are putting it in a personal context. Joey is a sitcom character that has been developed into a well rounded character. In order to assay his personal traits it is necessary to look at him as a person. I also wandered through high school at wild parties yet I was accepted at Stanford. I choose not to go and traveled in Europe for two years instead. Over a decade later I have returned to school. Does that mean it was less acceptable for me to restate conversations in the years between my high school days and when I returned to University life?

Katie

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:06qK8.447$[email]...

stupid?

proper

I'm sorry, but there is no baby in 820. Rachel does not become a parent until 824 so there is no way to judge her parenting skills until after she becomes a parent.

During the shower Rachel does not recognize a breast pump. I don't see a problem here. She has a length maternity leave and therefore has no need to use a breast pump until she returns to work. Giving a baby a bottle before it is absolutely necessary is bad. It causes nipple confusion. Breastmilk is best direct from the source.

Rachel also does not know what a Diaper Genie is. So what? IMO another useless baby gadget. A baby only needs breastmilk for the first several months and the stench from dirty diapers is not comparable to the stench from dirty diapers of a baby on solids or formula. In addition it is not dangerous to leave a newborn on a changing table before they can roll over. Personally I believe a baby should be in a sling on the mother at all times. However most parent do leave babies lying unattended while they set something outside or leave the room to go to the bathroom. This is not particularly dangerous until the child becomes mobile. Taking care of a newborn is much easier than caring for a toddler. All they do is sleep and eat. Of course, a changing table is another useless gadget IMO. What is wrong with using a towel on the floor or bed?

Lastly Rachel does not recognize a bassinet. Good for her! Babies belong in the bed next to the mother not in cages called bassinets and cribs.

Why is her lack of knowledge 3 weeks before the birth of her first child a problem? IMO this is very common in new mothers. In addition by the end of the episode she does have significant knowledge on caring for a baby. To me this shows she is capable of looking up and learning what she doesn't know. You can't expect someone to know everything right from the start. In fact I think this is the main reason, in the area, I live in that they send a nurse practioner to your home within the first week to see how you and the baby are getting along.

feel

to

ARE

Nothing in this world is absolute. A marriage between Joey and Rachel does not require them to leave town. Right now they are in the worse possible living arrangement. Neither Ross or Rachel has the space needed to explore new, healthy relationships. It is a good setup for comedy and pain, because it is highly unlikely both with mature at the same right and both will want to move into other relationships at the exact same moment. I no longer believe Ross and Rachel should be in a loving relationship. There is significant fear on both sides, and the love they feel for each other is not equal. As far as Emma is concerned her parents might as well be married, because sooner or later one of the two will leave the only home she has known.

Ross

a

are

I will get back to this thread after I finish my finals. However off the top of my head I would argue Ross' actions were to leave his child with people who were not qualified to care for a child. Remember I do not believe in unnecessary separations. If it is unavoidably necessary you make damn sure the person is capable of supervising a child. That means licensing and background checks and making sure they are capable. You do not leave your child with the first available person that is just plain irresponsible.

or

so

freaked

a

implications

University

married

were

which

it

were

laughs,

you

the

character

person

There are also many reasons a less than bright person might feel a conversation needs to be restated. It is a learning tool. It shows you are not just hearing the concept, but you are actively using it, which increases your memory of it, and you are putting it in a personal context. Joey is a sitcom character that has been developed into a well rounded character. In order to assay his personal traits it is necessary to look at him as a person. I also wandered through high school at wild parties yet I was accepted at Stanford. I choose not to go and traveled in Europe for two years instead. Over a decade later I have returned to school. Does that mean it was less acceptable for me to restate conversations in the years between my high school days and when I returned to University life?

Katie

On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as res0vdhd typed this -

We heard you the first time. :)

On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 20:04:08 GMT, "res0vdhd" wrote:

Excellent points, Katie!

Claire, I have to agree with Katie because in my own personal experience, I can relate to what Rachel went through in 820. Someone who has never really been around babies can be excused for being clueless about babies even in her last trimester. If we actually see her dump her responsibilities on others or leave the baby crying while she goes out shopping, only then can we label her as a bad mother.

That entire episode was a clear indicator that she was ignorant on many things but she learnt what was required in the end. The real test is when she does become a mother and deal with all the baby care issues. I think she will be a great mom unless we actually see her feed her baby soda or margaritas.

The same reasons go for Joey in the water breaking example you've stated as a matter of ignorance. Ignorance is not stupidity. If Joey was shown asking what water breaking is after that incident, then it would qualify as stupidity because he learnt nothing from that experience. The same episode showed that it was not so.

Priya

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:QQiK8.8411$[email]...

impossible

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I don't think Joey thinks about things as complicated as you do. He's a simple guy who does think so "high-tech." Joey is slow...its okay to be slow.

Sofya

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Oh, I know that and so was mine. :)

Good because like I said, it was a joke.

I'm not going to do the Ross thing. That too was a joke. :) But I don't agree with all the examples you've shown here. Other have also said so. So, what is the objective of your exercise? To prove to Tennant that Joey is indeed dumb? I don't see that happening. :) You want to show other ATFers that Joey is slow and prove it with quotes from the show. Fine but not everyone seems to agree with you on all of them. In the end, those who think he is stupid will be happy that they were right and those who think that he isn't *that* stupid may not really be swayed by this thread because not all your examples are acts of idiocy.

I'm not aggravated. You recognise his finer moments but only from a behind-the-camera POV. Oh, Joey is smart because the writing requires him to be. That is reality but if we look at him as a person instead of a fictional character, what do you see? I see a guy who has dull and bright moments. Yes, his dull moments outweigh his better ones but the fact that he has exhibited intelligence from time to time proves that he isn't just dumb. So, I'd say he's about average.

I'm only objecting because this whole exercise is really pointless unless you prove something in the end. If you go on stating your examples without responding to the feedback, then it looks like you are only trying to satisfy yourself.

The vermont joke doesn't sit well with me but I know that a majority of viewers enjoyed it and found it to be a perfect "Joey" thing. I will not try to defend every thing he has said because I know that he had done or said many dumb things. But I think that you are pulling at every little thing that the character has done to prove your point. Clearly, some of them are not valid examples. It really varies from one person to another on how they view some of the examples you've stated. Maybe you should ask for a vote on each evidance that you dig up and lets see what most of ATF thinks. That way we can arrive at some conclusion at the end of all this. We'll know how most people see Joey and which actions of his are really considered to be stupid and which are excused.

Like this one below...

How many single guys know about women's water breaking? In this same episode, we see Joey comforting Carol with his new found knowledge on child birth. This is hardly a dumb Joey moment, Chandler would have reacted in the exact same way.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

Yep, and others have agreed with me, too, sometimes in complete bafflement that this question has been raised.

Mostly what I've seen is that Tennant and you did not interpret the conversation between Joey and his father the same way I did. There is another person who disagreed with my interpretations, but we will not be reaching anything even remotely resembling a concensus. For religious reasons, I promised I would not discuss her points further.

Priya, the thing that really bothers me is that you and Tennant get upset with people who regard Joey as being slow on the uptake, and you criticize them for saying those things. You got bent out of shape with me because I put misspelled words in Joey's fictional letter to a fictional version of myself as an advice columnist. I skewered all six Friends one way or another, but that's the one which set you off. You want to continue to make comments about Joey being bright and hiding it? OK. But understand that other people have very large amounts of evidence to support a different interpretation. They aren't being unwise, unfair, they aren't lacking perception, and they really aren't wrong. Let it go. That opinion is never going away.

In the end, those who think he is stupid will be happy that they

Priya, you've been asking me to switch to season eight because you think he got smarter from one to eight. Apparently I've been hitting the mark enough for you to make that request.

You objected to my Joey-spelling in what was meant to be a light, comic piece. Apparently, you are.

You recognise his finer moments but only from a

Sorry, Priya. Joey is too cartoonish too often for me to think of him as being a person. I've never met a guy who thought Holden McGroin was a good stage name and he could make money off his Hand Twin. I can see the Gellers as people when she doesn't screech and he isn't mental, Phoebe and Rachel in serious moments, and Chandler much of the time, but not Joey as often. He's too dumb too much, and his serious moments actually don't happen all that often, even though we saw more of it in season eight.

I see a guy who has dull

Are other people allowed to say that he's dumb? Are they allowed to accept that as a given? Because many people will.

You seem to be annoyed because I didn't argue with you when you and Tennant decided to discount the way I interpreted Joey's conversation with his dad. Quite frankly, Priya, there were some comments in that conversation which bordered on denegrating and unkind. I chose to ignore them.

It doesn't sit well with you because it reinforces a point of view you don't want to have. (Rather like the Friends' attitude towards his love for Rachel.) I guess the question is this; when we analyze these characters, is our job to try to determine what the writers have in mind, or just to redefine the Friends world according to our own world view?

I

Sorry, Priya, I have yet to be really convinced by a single argument to the contrary that anybody has given me on any point. As far as I can tell, every single one of my examples have been valid, including the one where Tennant made reference to a dull blade in my army knife. We will not discuss why the conversation had to descend at that point. You do not accept that something is "clearly" XYZ just on my say-so; why should you expect me to agree with you on that?

It really varies from

Well, a number of people on ATF seem to think it's odd this point is being debated at all.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You just said that you didn't like the Vermont joke, but recognized that a majority of viewers enjoyed it and found it in character. Doesn't that mean that a majority of viewers regard Joey as lacking in some knowledge, at the very least? Priya, you are contradicting yourself.

You expect to take a separate poll on every single dumb action Joey ever did? Priya, do you think a significant enough sample is going to answer this for these polls to have any validity at all ? Look, is there anybody out there who thinks they'd actually sustain interest to do this for any length of time? We couldn't even get a really good sample for the poll you and Tennant started, and this certainly isn't going to get the vote of the casual viewer who doesn't overanalyze this show past death and into the coffin! Get realistic!

more

Joey came from a very large Italian family, and many of his siblings were younger than he was. He boasts being able to take care of babies in other episodes; coming from this background, I would expect him to have at least heard of somebody's water breaking. Chandler might hyperventilate, too, but I think he would not have asked for a definition. He'd have simply freaked out that he was going to have to witness it.

On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 08:28:26 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:

I was amused that you chose to write Joey that way when the same mistakes could have happened in Phoebe's and perhaps even Rachel's letter. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that a lack of a proper education or not paying attention in English class would result in poor writing skills.

I asked you to do that because we could discuss the characters as they are now, instead of how they were eight years ago.

I guess I've upset with you that post. Sorry but I don't get where you are coming from with that one. I asked why Phoebe's spelling is spotless and your response was that Phoebe has 20 points higher IQ. Isn't spelling and grammar directly related to education?

I said, I won't defend everything he did because I never said that he is acting stupid when he really is smart. I think that is Tennant's argument. You refuse to see Joey as a person and wonder why it annoys me but you get upset if I say that Ross is behaving like a idiot, when he clearly was. It's not very different.

I'm only telling you what I see. Others may see it that way too or they may not. I'm not here to dictate anything.

I don't know if I said anything offensive. If I did, I'm sorry. I only wanted to point out that it was not a proper example.

All this is for entertainment. If you like a joke and I don't. It's really makes little difference one way or the other. We're just putting out opinions here.

So why are you doing this then? Marita and Sean Black also agreed on that point and I'm pretty sure that, that particular point was not looked at as a moment of stupidity by most viewers. If you disagree, fine but what's the point of this thread?

I didn't say that he is a genius. Of course he has been shown as lacking in intelligence and that's how most people would view him. Its the degree of dumbness, I'm talking about. I still haven't found one person who liked the addition joke in 822. So, apparently people don't think he is that dumb.

Everyone would agree with you on many of the points but there are some that are really don't belong in this thread. In the other poll, I think its obvious that more than one or two people think that he is more than a pretty face.

So, tell me. What is the point of this thread?

He helped with baby sitting. We have never heard evidence that he rushed his sisters to the hospital. Most probably their partners did that job. Rachel didn't know half the pregnancy things until she got pregnant even though she has seen phoebe pregnancy. I'm sorry but I don't agree with this argument at all. Chandler has babbled many stupid things when he is nervous.

I'm not going to argue further on this thread as it is really getting nowhere.

Priya

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

upset

criticize

I

Well, this is a matter of poetic license. Phoebe met with other people behind dumpsters to have impromptu French classes. It is my judgement that she is more motivated and likely to spell better. Rachel actually has to write for her job. She at least is likely to know how to use a spellchecker.

he

enough

All I'm trying to do is show, in a completely script-based way, why audiences view the character as slow and the writers keep writing Vermont jokes, since you and Tennant seem to be so annoyed whenever somebody does that. I began at the beginning

The point to this whole thing came in this paragraph from my previous post:

never

Bright, motivated people can make up deficits that luckier people retain. I think Phoebe spells better than Joey does.

I don't know, in my response letter I called him the only emotionally healthy friend. That certainly notes his finer moments.

Well, OK then on that part.

You refuse to see Joey as a person and wonder why it annoys

I know which argument you were discussing. We disagreed to the degree that Ross was misbehaving. I will conceed this; Ross' behavior was certainly inappropriate; I just didn't think he was being Mental Geller, who is actually borderline crazy. Rachel's counterpoint is Princess Bitch; she comes up sometimes, but actually I didn't see her in the finale or anytime reasonably before. Through all of season eight I saw a very pregnant woman who had hormone issues and some genuine problems.

accept

Well, then, there is no problem. I was seeing a situation where any reference to Joey being dumb was met with irration - and this was often from Tennant, not you. Tell you what. I will cease this exercise as a regular thread. If there's another argument **complaining** about how people think Joey is dumb, **and that this view is wrong and unwarranted, **I will counter with examples from 202 and so forth. (It was this perception from me which started this whole thing in the first place.) The only point is that there is a very large amount of evidence to support this point of view, not that you or Tennant or anybody else are required to agree with it yourselves. It just isn't going to go away.

Tennant

dad.

Actually, I don't think it was

Ah, then there are different levels to this debate. We agree on these two points: Often he lacks intelligence, and most people see him that way. He has moments when he is much more intelligent. There is evidence for both points of view, though I still think dumb Joey tends to be the default setting.

I still haven't found one

Except the writers. By the way, I thought the addition joke was a bit over the top as well.

Well, he's also quite a pretty soul. Joey is the sanest and consistently nicest Friend.

abrahammy wrote in message news:2uqK8.468$[email]...

I really shouldn't jump into other people's threads, should I?? Sorry by the way :)

But I think Monica is also very consistently nice. Yes she's screechy (sometimes), yes she gets funny about crumbies, but she's very caring at the heart of it all. OTOH, Chandler is probably the meanest of all of them. Of course that's all just my opinion :)

"CandiGrrl" wrote in message news:adekc8$ife$[email]...

consistently

You absolutely should, at all times feel free to make any comment anywhere, unless you are a troll, and you are not. Please jump in as you wish.

Sorry by the

Please don't be. This is for everybody.

abrahammy wrote in message news:r4BK8.389$[email]...

some

anywhere,

Thanks. I've never been too sure about whether or not you should do that so thankyou for clearing it up for me :)

On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 15:04:30 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:

Are you saying that Joey hasn't exhibited motivation to learn? Let's see.. He read an entire volume of the encyclopedias. He read Rachel's pregnancy book. We know he watches the discovery channel. He showed great interest in learning to play the guitar from Phoebe. He almost completed reading Little Women.

So, why do you find it so hard to give him credit for these things? It seems to me that you have a *fixed* image of him in your head and whatever arguments are presented, you simply refuse to see them. Not very different from your accusations that I'm not seeing the evidence from the show that Joey is very slow.

Rachel? Rachel, who needed Chandler's help to make her CV? Rachel who obviously doesn't proof read what she typed "heaving beasts and throbbing pens"? If you can cite references from earlier seasons, so can I. :P

I do not get annoyed when people don't accept my POV. I'm just trying to have a debate with you. And just so you know, I had a perfectly good discussion with Belphoebe about the vermont joke in 816 and nobody was annoyed.

We never saw any real evidence of this from the script. This is something that you have chosen to interpret as a character quality. Isn't this entire thread a result of someone interpreting a character that isn't accepted by others? :)

I was talking about the scenes were he has shown considerable intelligence.

Your main argument in that thread was that he wasn't Mental Geller in that episode and we conceded that he wasn't and it was wrong to call him so. In this thread, I'm arguing that you've wrongly judged some scenes as dumb joey scenes while they aren't. Five people have said so and only you seem to think otherwise. You refuse to accept their explanations or even attempt to explain why you see it that way. It makes me think that your own bias of thinking has made you add every little thing that Joey says or does in your favor.

In the end, the only real good thing that will come out of this thread is that you will be pulling out some really classic jokes.

Well, I think the default setting is some where in between dumb and intelligent. If his default setting was dumb, he would just say dumb things all the time apart from his rare bright moments. He's in the middle and they sway him in either direction. I agree that they push him towards the dumb side more often.

Well, there you go. So, citing references from the script isn't always an true indicator as to how the audience views the character, is it? Because there are times when the general audience finds a joke or situation to be overly exaggerated.

True but this thread is about his IQ. ;)

So, I'm going to paste the text you've snipped so I can get your final word on them, okay?

Sean black:

*end quotes*

Well, what do you have to say? :)

Priya

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

that

I think I'm beginning to understand Marta's frustration with the Internet People. She's writing scripts which are meant to cause an instantaneous reaction - laughter. She writes jokes which are intended to include implications the casual viewer gets intuitively and laughs at instantly. The Internet People pick apart the jokes and explain why they aren't fair. And yes, in the case of Ross, I've done it too. I wrote a comic piece intended to get some laughs. A lot of people have told me they thought the column was funny, but you are picking it apart and taking me to task because I did to Joey the exact same thing the Friends writers generally do to him. And that's basically what I did - I wrote a Vermont Joke. You have expressed the opinion that The Vermont Joke wasn't fair, and you think my having Joey misspell things wasn't fair for the same reason.

The object of the show is to make people laugh by having silly pretend folks do silly things. One thing I HAVE learned from this exercise is that you can take every bit of humor out of a laugh line by analyzing it to death and trying to prove that the reality of the situation involved in the punchline is completely other than that which was necessary to make it a laugh line.

Common sense went out the window here some time ago. And I suspect that many of the people who agree that Joey is usually written dumb realize that and either stopped talking or tuned out some time ago. When I asked for help on the Paying the Debt thread some time ago I had one person tell me that nobody took my part, not because they did not agree with me, but because it was assumed that I did not need any help to win an argument. If nobody ever responds to this paragraph of this post, either you are right and everybody really thinks I was wrong to consider Joey slow, or a lot of people think we are hashing the obvious absolutely to death and don't believe this conversation worth joining.

I am now faced with arguments that say if a person ever does anything which requires intelligence at all, he can never be considered generally stupid; that it is offensive to depict the stereotypically "dumb" character as misspelling words if others are not depicted in this way as well, and that this action is socially unacceptable even in a piece of comic writing; that Joey uses the same clarification techniques used by a Nobel winning scientist, and for the same reasons; (and furthermore, by suggesting that the line was a laugh line is paramount to saying that *real people* should not do that unless they wish to be considered dumb, which is something I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole); and that pointing out examples of what appeared to be a stock comic trait for a sitcom character is morally the same as criticizing a real person.

Well, those are certainly original points of view and they have every place on this newsgroup, but they do leave me thinking the frame of reference for the two sides of the debate are so incompatible that there will never be a consensus - and furthermore, that any real deep discussion on these points is going to be rather acrimonious.

I feel a bit like Alice down the rabbit hole. On the other hand, maybe Ross just tried to argue Evolution with Phoebe. However, in Ross' original case, he was trying to make Phoebe agree that Evolution existed. In this case, "Ross" was originally trying to make "Phoebe" stop jumping on people whenever somebody made a statement that assumed Evolution as a given, and the technique chosen was to show why folks felt they had the evidence to make that assumption. I have said, repeatedly, (as Ross did not to Phoebe ujtil the end) that I understand you are not required to agree that Joey is dumb. I did ask you to admit there is evidence to support that, and you did - but you are STILL berating me for being so unfair as to assume Joey's spelling is worse than Phoebe's is.

I will keep that assumption, thank you, and you may continue to keep your assumptions and predjudices, of which we all have many. Apparently, we all find each other's assumptions absolutely bizarre.

There IS one point I will absolutely grant you, Priya; my objections to your criticism about Ross' behavior in the early part of season eight is EXACTLY the same behavior you are now exhibiting about Joey. My reaction then was indeed rather excessive. I objected to you criticizing Ross for behavior which was indeed very clearly in the script, and that is what you are doing now to me. We each seem to have a view of the character which does not match that of the writers, and so we are set up to be disappointed by the scripts.

People WILL continue to view Joey as being dumb, and Vermont jokes WILL continue to be written. No amount of hyperanalysis is going to change that. If you recoil every time you see a Dumb Joey joke, you will be uncomfortable even more often than I will when Mental Geller rears his unpleasant head.

abrahammy wrote:

It is probably the most obvious thing (and running gag) on the show that Joey is slow, and if anyone wants an example from the eighth season, go watch 802. This argument was doomed from the start if I may say so. Claire had a reason to do this, which was to show why people considered Joey dumb, which may be a bit harsh, the term 'slow' describes it better imo. But since the show contradicts itself every other week on what the characters are (mental or sane, bitchy or not, screechy or calm, sarcastic or boring as hell...) and people on ATF know the show inside out, evidence to counter-point anything can easily be dug out from the scripts. I kept away from this thread, because more often than not the most obvious things don't seem to be a satisfactorial answer on ATF, instead people like to interpret the scripts to suit it their POV of the show.

So if somebody tackles this POV, it's no longer about the character in question, but about how one does see the show in general and people tend to get heavily upset when their perception of the show is questioned, like e.g. Claire, Dennis, I and many others did, when it seemed to be commonly agreed on that Ross was a major jerk during the first part of the eighth season and some of the big J&R episodes.

The tone of this thread has gotten nastier over the time, so even though I wanted to comment on some of the things that were said here, I felt it would be best not to, since I don't want to get involved in these kinds of arguments, where people argue about the meaning of something, that, if simply taken at face value, is perfectly clear, in this case the fact that Joey has had a lot of slow-ish moments, some could be considered dumb as well (e.g. getting locked up in the entertainment centre). AFAICS nobody in this thread ever questioned that Joey has had his share of bright moments as well, especially in S8.

But if you compare Joey's part in S1-S7 and now in S8, the focus in S8 is definitely on his emotional side, how he supports his friends, how they are the most important thing for him and how he will always make sure he doesn't do something to hurt them. This has ALWAYS been true about Joey, it's not something new. Only in S8 this character entered the limelight, whereas in the seven years before he mostly supported his co-stars. Whenever a storyline focussed on Joey he was exactly the same guy as he was in S8, the only difference is that this time around, he wasn't this guy for two or three episodes, but for the whole season. So afterall, Joey probably hasn't even grown up all that much. They just beat the average viewer, who may not have been aware of this side of Joey, over the head with it, much like they went out of their way to show Ross as a geeky romantic in S1.

Andr�

"Andr� Knoche" wrote in message news:adg2ta$mrb$[email]...

dumb,

That's a reasonable thing to say. I think I have said several times that my point was not to force other people to "accept" that Joey was slow; it was to explain that there is a very large amount of evidence which backs that point of view - and that therefore, folks who state that as an a priori assumption are not being unreasonable in taking that view and they shouldn't be required to feel like they've done something unacceptable in saying so.

For that reason, pointing out examples which say he's brighter, or refuting any one individual example of slowness given in a long line of examples do not really make my argument invalid. My point is not, and has never been, that everybody has to think Joey's thick as mud; it's that folks are entitled to think that because there's a rather intimidating mountain of evidence to support it. There is a very severe inference in this thread that I am doing something really rigid and unacceptable by not acknowledging arguments which refute individual examples of slowness which others think are weak - but other people are not similarly required to acknowledge points which cannot be refuted by any sensible argument. In short, I have to agree with every point you win, but you are allowed to completely ignore any point I win. And while the joke between Joey and his dad may continue to make sense and be funny when reevaluated, some of these other refuted examples require that there be no joke at all in a place that was clearly a laugh line. I have never said Joey never had smart moments; what I am being -increasingly shrilly - ordered to accept is that any comment which assumes Joey as being generally dumb is unfair and unacceptable and that any person who is in any way reasonable will castigate anybody who calls Joey dumb.

I found the idea that Joey is smart kind of silly and amusing, but not particularly important. I find the idea that assuming him slow is now verboten - and that people have the right to be rather snide and personally rude and judgemental to people who express that opinion - extremely disturbing.

There is only one pertinent point. Is there evidence to support the idea that Joey is slow at times? If there is, are folks allowed to believe that, and say so? And if there isn't, and they aren't... why is everybody made so uncomfortable by the Vermont joke? Because it only makes sense if Joey is assumed to be dumb, which is the point of view currently in danger of being censored. Which is extremely silly, because it's a running default assumption of this show.

What is it with all the "Germanisms"? ;)

People over here go nuts because the original German terms are being replaced with English ones, or because there simply are no German terms for certain things (the whole Internet terminology, "eMail", "Homepage" etc.) and the English speaking world seems to pick up our language and mix it with theirs...

Andr�

In article , "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Grin. I used "weltschmerz" a little while ago in replying to Marita's post in my S8-20 review thread.

True. That's what English does, Andr�.

Here are words taken from 20 foreign languages, in one sentence...

• You claim some Nazi skunk with a pistol, in a Santa Claus suit, broke
• into my bungalow, put tomato ketchup in the whiskey, stole the rest
• of my alcohol, fed my tofu to a camel, escaped in a rickshaw and then
• took a taxi to a rendezvous with a Bolshevik mafia boss at his villa
• on the Florida coast - what bosh!

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

Funnily enough I've never come across that word until now... Probably really outdated - much like some of the English vocabulary they teach over here

Andr�

In article , "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Oh, it often happens that words live on as foreign expressions long after the native speakers have stopped using them.

Tennant

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:adi0il$h32$[email]...

What are Germanisms? I know there are language heirarchys like Slavic and I'm guessing Germanism is one of them.

for

Even more confused now...

Sofya

Sofya wrote:

In this case it is the word "verboten", others that seem to be common are "Angst" and "�ber". So a Germanism is a German word used in the English language as if it were an English term.

Andr�

Just part of the zeitgeist.

lol, nice one ;-)

Andr�

"Steve A Simon" wrote in message news:[email]...

"zeitgeist" isn't used in English language...or did you mean British English.

Sofya

"Sofya":

Then how do you explain my knowing the word, since I don't know any German or British English? :-) Actually, it is used in the (U.S.) English language, to mean "spirit of the times." I've heard it used numerous times, and to make it official, it appears in Webster's New World College Dictionary.

In article , [email] (Steve A Simon) wrote:

Yep, we also stole "poltergeist".

Tennant

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

Actually Sofya, British English *is* English.

Tennant

Like I said in my previous post, by digging out a huge number of examples that show how 'slow' Joey can be, you may not only be tackling someone's opinion on Joey, but also their perception of the show. If people prefer to see Joey as the shining star of the show, stuff like the Vermont joke or the addition joke in 822 will not go over well with them. Remember, we did the same thing when Ross was the character in question.

I think what Tennant, Priya and Marita are objecting to, is people whose opinion of Joey is the same Chandler had in 224 (at least I think it was that ep): "How do you not fall down more?", and that's an unfair comment to make about Joey. He has done some really stupid things, but so have all the others. Maybe Joey's stick out more, such as applying with a stage name of Joseph Stalin.

However, his having a hard time at grasping implications is a running gag and nobody can deny that. I don't even think it's bad thing he has this "flaw", it makes people like him, since everybody has been in a situation where one didn't get an implication right away, so people can relate to the character.

Andr�

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:...

Well said, Andre. Thanks.

Priya

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:adi1sc$j86$[email]...

to

to

the

the

Just to be clear, are you siding with Priya or Abrahammy?

Sofya

Sofya wrote:

Both and neither of them. Claire's reason to do this was kind of noble, to show that people who thought Joey was dumb weren't insensitive and the show itself was constantly supporting this "belief".

I don't think Priya is denying that Joey had a lot of dumb moments, she just doesn't accept some of the examples Claire has given, but that's down to everybody's individual preference.

Finally, I like them both and really wouldn't want to argue with any of them, especially since it's summer and the weather is good and I finally got DSL!! woohoo, downloading madness... And about 500 posts to read (400 on another NG though) - you spend one day offline and everybody posts like crazy...

Andr�

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:adoq5j$7rk$[email]...

show

I know what you mean. I still have 56K. I'm not too fond of long posts but I made an exception with this thread. Abrahammy, or is it Claire?, and Priya both are long writers (did that make sense?) but I was very interested in what they were discussing so for the first time I actually read every word of every post unlike other threads.

Sofya

In article , "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Yes, I largely agree, thanks Andr�.

However, not knowing about Joseph Stalin is an ignorance, and one which many would share (though not in Germany, given its history). In any case I agreed with Claire that the other stage name Holden McGroin was stupid; Joey failed to spot the resemblance to "holding my groin".

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

He probably passed his history classes by sleeping with his teacher. Again, not knowing Joseph Stalin is related to education.

The Holden Mcgroin thing could be explained too. In Simpsons, Bart often calls up the bar and gives several fake names similar to Holden Mcgroin. The guy never gets it immediately. Yet, he is not known as a dumb character on the show. I remember one joke:

Bart: Can I speak to one Mr. Coholic? Moe: Sure, what's his first name? Bart: Al Moe: Is there an Al Coholic in here?

It really depends on how Chandler sold him the name. We saw how he got him to arrive at Joseph Stalin. If we saw a couple of more frames of the scene and saw that Joey never got Holden Mcgroin was, then he was definitely being dumb. My guess is he probably got it, when they laughed in his face.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Lol, to me that's a cleverer achievement than merely reading the books!

Absolutely. In the director's cut on DVD, it goes like this...

JOEY: You know there already is a Joseph Stalin?

CHANDLER: You're kidding.

JOEY: Apparently he was this Russian dictator who slaughtered all these people. You'd think you would've known that!

CHANDLER: Y'know, you'd think I would've. Hey, how about Joey Heatherton?

JOEY: Come on, seriously! I told you, I don't want to go back to Joey.

Rachel (or more likely Jennifer Aniston) laughs at this, and Ross spreads his hands as if to wonder how Joey could say something like that - but I don't have the slightest idea who Joey Heatherton is.

Does that make me a dumbass?

Exactly. Have you ever fallen for a joke like that? I know I have.

Very probably. BTW, earlier in the episode, the three guys stage a tableau of the famous Three Monkeys, who see no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil. Anyway, Joey is the blind monkey, Ross is the deaf monkey, and Chandler is the dumb monkey...

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

LOL.

Me neither. Anyone?

Nah, it's probably some American reference.

I didn't get your Eggs Hacked Lee till you spelled it out to me. :)

What have you got against Chandler? I read that you think that he is gray crayon. He has been dumb here and there but calling him because of that isn't helping this argument that Joey isn't dumb. :)

Priya

p r i y a wrote:

That's what Google is for you punks :)

http://www.swinginchicks.com/joey_heatherton.htm

Andr�

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Exactly.

Anyone?

Yes, well Joesph Stalin is some Russian reference.

It's much easier to fool people than it is to avoid being fooled.

I'm just saying he has been dumb here and there, it's the same process that makes Joey look dumb occasionally. Look at the Holiday Armadillo, where Monica caught on immediately, while Chandler was very slow.

The difference is in how some people regard them, yukking at what they see as dumb Joey jokes, while Chandler is regarded as a great wit. Well, sometimes it's the other way round. But none of them are dumb really.

Tennant

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:19:39 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Oh, I didn't even realise that this Joey was a she.

So how come Chandler, Rachel & Ross have heard of her?

Tennant

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:14:34 BST, in alt.tv.friends you wrote:

I guess that was the joke. :)

A supposed "dumb" Joey moment. ;)

Didn't you get Andre's post where he gave a link to this actress?

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

I suppose. There are 18 other actresses named Joey in the IMDb.

No, he was just being normal. What was Chandler doing, watching a 60s TV show before he was born?

Yeah, but I didn't get around to following it.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Reruns! There is nothing dumb about not knowing old actress.

So your newsreader only quarantines my posts... hunf

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

like

is.

sex

I know who Lucille Ball is and she's WAY before my time.

"reruns" contradicts the sentence that follows it. That indeed shows he is dumb because there are reruns. I would think someone is out of this world if they didn't know who Lucille Ball was (or at least "Lucy").

Sofya

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 01:04:59 -0400, "Sofya" wrote:

I have never heard of this Joey Heartherton and I don't know how famous she was in her time. Lucille Ball is well known internationally, so it's not a fair comparison. IMO

Do you watch everything on reruns? I don't. Ross and Chandler do a lot of things that Joey doesn't share an interest in, like Lord of the Rings. It's a matter of education or personal taste.

You would have made a stonger argument had you said that, Joey being an actor himself, ought to have known about this famous actress. :)

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Oh, I guess so. Ta.

It's *not* my newsreader, it *reads* the news, it doesn't send it to me. That is done by a whole chain of servers, starting with one at your ISP, and ending with one at mine, and a many more in between.

Somewhere along one of the many possible routes your posts can take, is a server that sits on them for a few weeks, I don't know why.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

That server seems to be "closer" to you than to Priya though, for I - and presumably a lot of other people - get all the posts just fine

Andr�

In article , "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Well, it never misses yours (I'm glad to say).

Tennant

On Sun, 23 Jun 2002 18:13:07 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

What about my posts? <sulks>

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

I know, it's so dreadful, sweetie. I have only 675 of your posts.

Tennant

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:53:44 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

Only! lol

My newsreader is delivering your posts late too, so we're even. :)

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

Actually, that was just the Priya Nishmans, there were also another 24 Nishman Priyas - so I've added a routine to put name-variations together, and have come up with this list of everyone over 400...

   Seran Yusuf  ....... 1705
   Marita Bakken  ..... 1643
   Activia  ........... 1622
   Paul Hyett  ........ 1455
   Jacqui Mireille  ... 1235
   Claire Abraham  .... 1108
   Tina Nellis  ........ 964
   Mari Szutenberg  .... 908
   Adeline LeBorgne  ... 812
   Alex Washtell  ...... 808
   Priya Nishman  ...... 704
   Owen Shiers  ........ 700
   Zoepetier/Marcel .... 684
   James Pittman  ...... 643
   Mardi/Belphoebe  .... 581
   Emma J Stoneman  .... 553
   James Squire ........ 407

Oop.

Tennant

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:10:32 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

I'm not in the top ten, I wonder if that's good or bad. :)

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

Look at it this way. 704 is 5 more than 675 plus 24, and a lot of the numbers above yours either don't change, or do so slowly.

Tennant

On Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:03:16 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

Ah, that is what confused me. You keep saying that it reads the news but it doesn't send it to you. I figured that you've got some sort of filters that store my posts in a separate place and puts in the main folder many weeks later. I get it now, you were talking about your newsserver.

I have the same problems with my newsreader. It eats up some of the posts in the threads on a regular basis. They do arrive after a while.

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

Yep. And "a separate place" isn't strictly accurate either, it's just a label that says what group it belongs to, but they're all in the same place really (with repeats in the back-up system).

Well, mine doesn't. All posts are kept safely, and none are deleted automatically. I may mark a post for deletion, but nothing happens unless I run a special program which labels them as deleted, even though they're not. Then later on, I might actually delete them.

Tennant

On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, an infinite number of monkeys, masquerading as Tennant Stuart typed this -

You can tell Turnpike how long to keep posts, and override that if you prefer.

Mind you, Demon have been having loads of problems for the last week - email delays, and loads of internal routing problems.

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Hey, Chandler's not dumb...

Chandler's not dumb, then? :)

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Did I say he was? :)

I just said that none of them are.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

Now that you mention it, I could list so many examples that other exchange students have encountered during their time in the US, it'd make Joey look like Albert Einstein. The best one was when a girl was asked whether we actually had roads in Germany - and her parents owned a big posh Mercedes-Benz.....

And as for our history: Do people outside of Germany actually notice the current Anti-Semitism debate going on over here? That is ever so entertaining for cynics like me.

Andr�

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:07:19 +0200, "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Having studied in the USA for a year now, I can confirm this point. I've met people thinking the main language in Norway is either German or English, and they don't think we have pizza and TV. There have also been times where I've been asked whether I shoot whales on a regular basis, and if there are polar bears walking around in our streets.

The Americans where I live are pretty aware of the problems Germans have had with neo-nazism, if that's what you're talking about.

Marita Bakken wrote:

No, that's not what I meant. Right now there's a big debate going on because a politician from one of the biggest parties we have in Germany said that the vice president of the "German Jewish Community Committee" and his behaviour in public could lead to more Anti-Semitism than there currently is. I shall not go into it too much, but apparently this politician really hit a nerve with a lot of people, for this vice president is often regarded to as one of the most arrogant persons in the public eye - and people are not saying that because he's jewish.

Andr�

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:ae8qpo$2df$[email]...

because

regarded

Why exactly did you bring this up?

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:ae909r$vu5$[email]...

that

currently

really

are

It follows rather logically from the Joseph Stalin reference, if you examine the specifics of the situation he is referring to.

Katie

In article , "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Lol, that sort of thing happens all the time, America can be so insular.

I think that for the British media it's been knocked aside by recent events in the right-wing politics of France & Holland - although at the moment current affairs don't exist unless a ball is involved...

Tennant

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

That's a fair statement.

This is totally unfair and untrue. Throughout this thread, I have accepted many of your points. I have told you that I do recognise many of Joey's dumb scenes. I told you that I do like Joey's dumb scenes. I don't think that he is a genius but that he is average and argued so. It is *you* who hasn't accepted or acknowledged anything. When asked how you see Joey's clever moments without using your usual behind-the-camera swiss army knife analogy, *you* refused to do so. You found him to be way too cartoonish but Ross is all to real for you to be demanding child custody rights. Really Claire, don't twist my words around. You did this in the old Ross thread and you are doing it now.

Yeah, sure. It's okay for you to do it but other people can't. Are you following secret set of rules that I don't know about? I'm sorry but your statements are grossly unfair. What has been done in this thread is several people have *attempted* to explain their point of view of the character. If you don't accept them, that's fine but you are the one being judgmental and rude here. Read your posts, you have made snide and sarcastic remarks about anyone and everyone who didn't agree with what you've said.

Okay! You need to hear my theory about the Vermont joke before you can make judgment. I thought that joke could have been written better. Not necessarily showing Joey as a smart guy but that it required a little more work from the writers than what was seen. Belphoebe asked me to write a joke that I thought would be better in that scene and I did.

I don't mind Joey being overly dumb. I'm feeling let down because the old dumb Joey jokes like smell-the-fart act were so darn hilarious.

... Ross and Monica's scene from 816:

Monica: No! All he's thinking about is how you're taking this! I mean, listen it's totally freaking him out. He's talking about moving to Tibet and like a monk who once inspired him.

Ross: The Dalai Lama?

MOnica: No. Ace Ventura! (Pause) He thinks you hate him.

Ross: Hate him? I� No, I don't hate him. (Pause) It's just it's Rachel, y'know?

Monica: Honey I can't even imagine how hard this must be for you. But, I don't want you to lose Joey over it. And right now he just needs to know that you're still his friend.

Ross: Okay. Okay, I'll talk to him.

Monica: All right. Now do it soon, before he begins his pilgrimage! ...

Now, go ahead and judge where I stand on dumb Joey jokes.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

Well, Priya, on that, I don't really know what to say on this. I tried on the idea that it was just a lack of education, but the old jokes made this kind of confused because some of them really were about him missing the obvious. There really isn't a very coherent pattern to this - but then, since his possible clinical depression in season 5, Mental Geller hasn't had a coherent pattern either, and neither does Screechy Monica. It's actually kind of hard to relate to any of the characters when they descend into caricature. The only one that isn't actually painful to watch is Dumb Joey because he is benign.

First of all, at this point we all need to take five and catch up to each other. We are beginning to overlap between transmission and reception/reply in a way that is beginning to make a bad situation worse. I acknowledged yesterday morning that there was much similarity between what I did in the Ross thread and what you are doing to me now. What I read last night was an angry post from you which responded to a previous comment. Without considering that you may not have seen my concession, I felt you were just hammering me and I acted as if I had not made that concession, which appeared at the time to have been ignored. This morning I read two posts from you which made it clear that you had actually read it and acknowledged it - and obviously this afternoon you got the post I wrote last night. The result is that one particular exchange should have ended the argument, but overlapping transmission raised hackles which had been lowered in both directions.

As for "Ross demanding custody rights", the inference appears to be there that, since a Joey/Rachel marriage by definition loses custody for one of Emma's parents, there is no reasonable or logical criteria by which custody can possibly go to Ross rather than Rachel, and no argument, heated or reasoned, can possibly avoid being offensive. In a fictional scenario, I gave custody to Ross because he was the more experienced parent.. If Joey gets the girl, he's probably going to get the little girl, too, and Ross is going to end up with nothing at all except his fossils. That appears to be the only scenario a lot of people will accept, and any other result will cause great anger.

Yes, actually you explained that pretty well in the message I read today.

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:5odL8.2454$[email]...

Finale Spoiler space..

If Joey

is

be

Not for me. I just was thinking about this.

In the real world, I would think that Rachel would at least talk to Ross about Joey's supposed "proposal" before she gave a definite answer. Her acceptance would have a big affect on Ross's life. She would have to move out (most likely with Emma) and Ross would be losing her and the baby in a way. I know that because of the cliffhanger, they couldn't do it this way but she really does owe a talk with the father who is also her roommate (who gave up dating without complaint and has been there for her). He has shown all intentions of being there for her when she brings Emma home and he has expected and wanted to do that.

They have a closeness that transcends mere friendship. How many fathers-to-be who aren't involved with the mother would actually do all that Ross has done, even to the point of having her moving in with him and pretty much giving up his bachelorhood so he could share in the experience?

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Okay <high fives all around> :)

I use google to access ATF. Not the best option but it's better than my news server. I posted a reply in the morning and I didn't see your reply to Andre then. Later on in the afternoon, I replied to it when I saw it. It takes about 3-9 hours for posts to show up google. All the same, my objections to that post was these lines...

"There is a very severe inference in this thread that I am doing something really rigid and unacceptable by not acknowledging arguments which refute individual examples of slowness which others think are weak - but other people are not similarly required to acknowledge points which cannot be refuted by any sensible argument. In short, I have to agree with every point you win, but you are allowed to completely ignore any point I win. And while the joke between Joey and his dad may continue to make sense and be funny when reevaluated, some of these other refuted examples require that there be no joke at all in a place that was clearly a laugh line."

The above lines indicate that you do agree that the line between Joey and his dad may not be a dumb Joey scene. But you never acknowledged it before even though, I had asked you several times and you're telling Andre that you are being forced to give away points while gaining none for yourself. That wasn't true, was it? Yes, the issue has been discussed to death but it bugged me that this was what you were relaying to people.

This is Friends, not some Disney family hour show. BKC are by no means traditionalists. I doubt that perfect family situation for Emma is their top priority for a proper end to the show. This show is about very close friends who should be able to work out all their troubles and come out of the situation as better friends. Thats the way it will end and that can happen with any direction they choose to go.

Priya

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:BOKK8.67$[email]...

the

because

him.

folks

and

punchline

many

on

it

ever

everybody

we

I am reluctant to get involved with this topic because there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement at all from some of you (which is very obvious to me) that Joey is written to be a little slow. This is not the worst thing that can be said about a person. I can only rehash what has already been said. He has an intelligence when it comes to getting what he wants (from females), he's charismatic and kind to his friends and he has a good heart. But...when Joey's written a little slow, they're the funniest moments (to me) on the show. He has saved several less-than-stellar seasons for me because even when I was very aggravated with what the storylines were, I knew Joey would make me laugh. There's some people who saw Joey as more mature this year and more intelligent and were happy about it. Speaking only for myself, I hoped and hoped that this "new" Joey was only temporary. For all the arguing about intelligence, maturity, etc., this is still a comedy and we're still supposed to laugh. We may care about these characters but their flaws are what makes this show a comedy and as long as the show is written with a *respect* for these characters (this would exclude the UNfunny "Mental Gellar" garbage) with an acknowledgement that they ALL have some funny flaws, I think the writers have succeeded.

My God, this show would be dull if they were perfect!

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Well, thanks for acknowledging that. Now, I don't have to worry that I will upset Claire if I say something bad about Ross. It's one of the main reasons I kept at this thread. Of course, it was obvious that this thread won't bring anything useful in the end. Neither side would change their views. But the real reason you started this was you thought it was wrong for people to get upset over someone's else interpretation of a character. I'm glad you admitted that you've done it. Okay, this stops here.

Priya

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

Claire, what annoyed me in this thread was your approach to this whole situation. You started this thread because you thought it was wrong for Tennant to get annoyed when people don't see Joey the way he does. I found it to be a terrible double standard when you have in the past and in this thread exhibited the very same attitude. Why is it okay for you to make such assumptions about the characters? We are all entitled to our opinions just as much you are.

Rachel was shown as ignorant on baby care issues for quick laughs in 820 but you took that story and labeled her as a bad mother. In 811, the script showed in a way that Tennant and I thought resembled Mental Geller. You berated us and labeled us as 'Ross bashers' and demanded that we don't call him Mental Geller. You got so worked up over us making light of a sitcom character. I'm sure Marta Kauffman would have thought that thread was pretty silly too.

I know you've acknowledged all of that in your post. I really don't have anything against you personally. I just hope that in the future, people won't be beaten over their head for posting their interpretation of a character. This is a place to discuss the show and lets do that without getting worked up over the personalities of the show's characters.

As far as Joey is considered, I never argued that his dumb moments didn't exist. I only defended a few of the scenes you had sampled because I don't think that he was dumb in them. I actually like many of the dumb Joey jokes. It's the quality of a joke that I am questioning. I love the old smell-the-fart jokes but if the writers get so lazy and write an addition joke and expect me to laugh over it, well that's too bad. I don't mind seeing dumb Joey jokes, they just have to write clever dumb Joey jokes. I'm sure that everyone will agree with that. And Mental Geller, well none of us want to see him again.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

your

EXACTLY

was

behavior

doing

the

that.

uncomfortable

head.

For one reason only; I was supposed to write a scenario in which Joey and Rachel got married and lived happily ever after. I had to make a decision as to which of those two people get custody - especially since I genuinely think the group is going to fall apart if Joey breaks up that little family. Remember, nobody else in the group even wants to hear about it, let alone approve of it.

Rachel does not know anything about parenthood. This has been a consistent trait for her. The situation was serious enough for her mother to want to come live with her. Sandra went away because, and only because, Ross was going to be there. Well, that's *Rachel's mother's* take on the situation. And mine. Katie is entitled to her philosophy on child rearing, but I personally don't see a huge problem with asking your very dearest and closest friends to babysit occasionally. It will be interesting to see if Rachel ever gets a babysitter.

Well, that can certainly be said about all the characters!

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:BOKK8.67$[email]...

the

because

him.

folks

and

punchline

many

on

it

ever

everybody

we

Thats exactly why i'm not replying in this thread anymore...because Abrahammy has been saying exactly what I'm thinking and I guess I dont' have anything to contribute if she's saying what I want to say. This thread has made me question Friends and ATF's members in the way we view the show. The fact that some people don't think Joey's default setting is "Slow and Stupid at Times" makes me really wonder how its possible since we are watching the same show. I'm not trying to be funny or anything but I guess I always thought that it was a fact more than an opinion that Joey is the "dumb" guy and Ross was the smart, serious guy, Rachel was Princess Bitch, Phoebe is the quirky one, Chandler is the insecure joke guy, Monica the "in-charge", neat freak. I'm not saying that they are always portraying those "titles" but I always felt that was their default settings. I agree that they have all grown and matured over 8 years but that is their essence...those titles are part of the characters in my opinion. I love all the friends but I really can't figure out how people began thinking Joey isn't mostly on the dumb setting. Well...i do have an idea...I think its because Joey has fallen in love with Rachel and we see he has matured so we think that he hasn't been dumb before season 8, is that it?

Sofya

which

that

of

place

for

Ross

case,

is

Joey's

all

your

EXACTLY

doing

that.

uncomfortable

"Sofya" wrote in message news:admse6$esj$[email]...

people

judgement

Internet

fair.

my

you

line.

and

help

think

have

The

Stupid

the

guy

After eight years of character development none of the friends remain cardboard figures displaying only one prominent trait. In literature you analyze a character based on their depth of character and how developed they are in realistic ways. I think in Hollywood the big money is made by screen writers who have the capability to develop a well rounded character and to write that character with enough ambiguity that many different people can identify with them and see them in different ways. The money is in the number of viewers. Some viewers can just see the surface expression of one prominent trait and others can take the time to look beneath the surface and see there is more to it than than.

In the end I think it comes down to the quote at the end of the movie The Breakfast Club

"Dear Mr. Vernon, we accept the fact that we had to sacrifice a whole Saturday in detention for whatever it was we did wrong. But we think you're crazy to make an essay telling you who we think we are. You see us as you want to see us...In the simplest terms, in the most convenient definitions. But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain...and an athlete...and a basket case...a princess...and a criminal... Does that answer your question? Sincerely yours, the Breakfast Club."

The movie shows that within each person there is a princess, a jock, a criminal, a basket case, and a brain."

Katie

On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 01:36:09 -0400, "Sofya" wrote:

What we're discussing here isn't whether Marta Kauffman and David Crane initially thought that the character called Joey on the show would be a stupid womanizer. That's not the point here. They may have thought that he would be when they started casting for the show and planning storylines, but that is a long time ago now, and the show also ended up being an international success, which makes it even harder to predict what fans think of each character.

What we have tried to prove in this thread is that different jokes and storylines can be interpreted very differently by people based on their nationality, education, religious and political background etc. Thus, Joey, or any of the other characters for that matter, has never been looked upon the same way by different fans. You may think he's dumb, but that doesn't mean that other people do. If we look at the international aspect of it, there have been many jokes on the show that have been rooted in American culture. That's not always easy to understand if you don't live in the USA. So does that mean that the international fans are stupid? Of course not. My point is that we have very different perceptions of the characters and the jokes even though we are watching the same show. The fact that some of us think that Joey is definitely not stupid only proves that we see things differently. And isn't that what a newsgroup is all about?

On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 15:04:30 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:

I agree with Priya here. I don't understand why we should automatically assume that Joey has poor writing skills. Although he has asked Chandler to help him with the spelling of a word ("suspicious") in the past (510 TOW the Inappropriate Sister), Chandler and Ross didn't seem to have any problems reading his script later in that same episode. Granted, he had spelled "paleontologist" wrong, but how many people actually spell that word correctly?

Besides, from what I've seen, education often has little to do with your grammar skills. College students waiting to get their degrees often have very poor spelling indeed, and they've already learned more at school than Joey ever did.

It's not just Priya and Tennant. Personally, I agree with their points, and I think that Joey is generally very underrated by the audience. Therefore, the viewers seem to be stunned when he does something smart, such as come up with the Europe-story in 804 TOW the Videotape.

I think the bottom line here is that some of us (e.g. Tennant, Priya, Katie and myself) have a totally different perspective than you do. We think of Joey as a regular guy who's not as dumb as the general fans believe he is. Just because the majority's opinion is that Joey is just a dumb character that never will amount to anything, should we have to think of him the same way? I certainly don't think so. However, I don't think I'll be able to change anybody's views on Joey since it's so widely regarded that he's merely an idiot.

Joey seems to be stuck in a dead-end street with no possibilities whatsoever to improve his image. No matter how many Spanish mountains he knows, and no matter how many encyclopedias he reads, he will always be "the dumb one." I, for one, am not going to think of him that way, so call me extreme for doing so, but I will not change my opinions here.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

I agree with both you and Priya here - except that in English English, you have just spelt "palaeontologist" incorrectly. :-)

We found it so hard to get graduates with good English skills that we've given up on the requirement. Instead we judge them on their engineering or mathematical ability, and then teach everything else that they need ourselves. In fact, we later gave up hiring people with computing degrees, and now we teach all of that side as well.

I've repeatedly said that this is not what annoys me.

When in the past I've complained about that, it was because it was bad writing, not because it was about Joey. I've also complained, just as loudly if not more, when Ross was being made to look stupid.

And I'm not even annoyed by the odd occasion that Joey really does do something stupid, they all do. What does annoy me is that way that many fans ignore or overlook occasions when Joey is clever.

Absolutely Marita, I so agree.

Tennant

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:32:42 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

I don't live in Britain, so I spelled it the American way. (Didn't you think I had a Texas-accent? ;) ) BTW, I'm not very surprised by the fact that you commented on that. On the contrary, I expected someone to pick up on it. :)

Yep, it's the same thing in Norway. Most people's grammar is going out the window, even though we have two written Norwegian languages.

:)

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Funnily enough, Claire often sounds very English in her messages, so that's what I originally assumed she was, especially since her posts are timed in GMT. I was so surprised when she revealed that she is a Texan: and it was very funny when Claire cleverly wrote back in some broad Texas accent; and when she elucidated the syntax of "y'all".

I knew that you wanted me to, so I did. :)

Lol yes, although ISTM that having two written languages makes it worse.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

ISTM?

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:...

It Seems To Me

Maybe you should ask Tennant to send you his list of acronyms or you could look them up at this site : acronymfinder.com

Priya

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:34:52 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

Oh, I didn't know she was a Texan.

Grin. I know you, Ross (and Joey).

Yeah, that's true. My rule has always been to follow my dialect for one of the languages, and the main norm for the other one, and that works in most cases.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

There you go, then.

Stort smil.

Eeshkk. You are very bright. How do most people cope?

Tennant

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:24:44 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

It depends on your dialect. My dialect is pretty close to the other language, so I don't think it's that hard, but people living in Oslo and other areas in the south have a harder time coping with it. And if you don't have a dialect similar to the language, you'll need to use the dictionary.

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Gosh. I guess that would be like me speaking Welsh.

Tennant

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:15:43 BST, Tennant Stuart wrote:

I don't know anything about Welsh, so perhaps that's true. :)

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote:

Yep.

Tennant

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

Okay, this is from *before* that job, but your words reminded me...

118 "TOW All the Poker", the gang is helping Rachel post resum�s.

RACHEL: I'm going for anything, I cannot be a waitress any more.

ROSS: Rach, did you proofread these?

RACHEL: Uh... yeah, why?

ROSS: Uh, nothing, I'm sure they'll be impressed with your excellent compuper skills.

RACHEL: Oh my God! Oh, do you think it's on all of them?

JOEY: Oh no, I'm sure the Xerox machine caught a few.

If Joey had done that, the only reason he wouldn't be raked over the coals for his spelling, would be that people were too busy calling him a dumbass for thinking that the spelling mistake might not be repeated on some of the photocopies.

As it is, it was Rachel's turn to be dumb, so that is ignored or overlooked, while nobody notices that Joey came back with a very fast witticism about what she had just said.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Good one. I didn't remember this one. I had mentioned Rachel's attempt at writing erotic novels. That was in episode 111 TOW Mrs.Bing. Rachel should have learnt to proof read after being teased by her friends. She learns nothing from that incidant. That is being dumb. I don't see why it was so unreasonable of me to question Rachel's perfect spelling in Claire's advice column because the *script* has indicated more than once that she is a bad speller. People don't remember these things about the other characters except Joey.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Yes, this is true. But then anyone can make a typo, and somehow get it through a spellcheck. But don't overlook these two main points...

Rachel asked if the error was on all the sheets. That is far more dumb than making a typo, and yet it does *not* make her a dumbass, for that was just a panic reaction. However, you can just imagine the fuss if Joey had said something like that.

Joey *immediately* came up with a clever remark, just as Chandler is supposed to do - yet whenever Joey does this, it gets ignored.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

It seems the roles have reversed now, back in the beginning of the J&R story you got accused of bashing Ross out of proportion and now you're saying the same thing about us and Joey. Obviously I can only speak for myself here, and it's not like I don't acknowledge Joey has a lot of smart moments, e.g. the one you mention above. Also I was the first one to point out the inconsistency with Joey's sudden inability to add up 500 + 500, when in S6 he could add up the bill in CP in a matter of seconds.

ISTM though that you're getting overly upset about something that is not meant to put Joey down. When people say that some of the moments you like to present as Joey's clever moments are due to his instinct, it's not like they are referring to some "animal hunting for prey" kind of instinct, it's just that instead of relating the actions to his IQ, people are more likely to relate them to his EQ, since Joey has always been shown as a very caring friend. Whether EQ or IQ matters more is a whole other subject, IMO the EQ is more important.

Andr�

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Just be happy that nobody has said that Joey really thinks that the copier would have caught the typos. :)

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Hunnf, yes. Thank goodness for small mercies.

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

To tell you the truth, my heart has never really been in this debate over Joey's dumbness - not fully. If I nevertheless half-heartedly jumped on the "Joey's dumb" bandwagon, then I apologize to the assembly. I'm not saying he's *not* dumb, but that was not initially my beef with the character.

As a matter of fact, his "cleverness" is supremely manifest in the ease with which he gets women to fall for his act over and over and over and over again. The high-school-full-of-sex comment need not be taken literally for it to be seen as a character trait of Joey's, and though he occasionally hits a bump in the road (105 with Angela), he often conquers it (as he did in that episode).

Claire herself noticed something very straightforward about the character, sort of what Jennifer Anniston said way back in season 2 about Rachel: what you see is what you get, and that you can depend on. Claire, if I'm putting words in your mouth, please say so. I may be interpreting what you are saying more than quoting you here. Actually I think what she said was that Joey is the most stable character right now.

My biggest problem with Joey has always been that aspect of him that he himself was trying to hang onto when he was wrestling with his feelings for Rachel: the lothario. From the very beginning, this show has treated casual sex as the norm, and Joey has always represented that norm.

And so the reason why examples of Joey's cleverness rankle me so is not because they are false but because I don't think he should get credit for cleverness which leads to a deplorable end. And maybe I gravitate toward the "Joey's dumb" side for precisely the same reason. It is probably "displacement" on my part, but I do not apologize for it. I apologize for not recognizing it and being up front about it.

The only times I really like the character are when this foundation of cleverness is shaken, like he was with Rachel. When he put Chandler in a box, I loathed him not because he didn't have a point but because from where I stand he doesn't have *the right* to make that point. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

I see you have missinterpreted this scene also. This was supposed to be ironic that she misspelled "computer" and "typing" is a computer skill. Rachel was not stupid/dumb in this scene. She accidentally pressed the wrong letter on the keyboard and forgot to spell check (another computer skill).

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in news:ae842k$bhe$[email]:

I would definitely call Rachel dumb in this scene, but not for making a typo--they happen to everyone, though how you'd get 'compuper' when you intended to type 'computer' is a bit beyond me considering the placement of the keys in most keyboards (though I assume I'm just being nitpicky here and that the writers didn't bother to think of this). What makes Rachel dumb, in my opinion, is the "do you think it's on all of them?"

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:10:01 -0000, Anesly <devnullatdeadletter.org> wrote:

I totally agree. Anyone who's ever touched a computer should know that about printing documents. If they don't, they are stupid; so Rachel was the dumb one in this scene.

Anesly <devnullatdeadletter.org> wrote in message news:...

In another episode 111 TOW Mrs.Bing, Rachel makes a typo with the word Nipple. She typed it as 'Niffle'. I also thought it was weird that she could mistype a p with a f. Maybe Rachel doesn't know how to spell Nipple. I guess I'm being nitpicky too, the writers obviously just wanted a word that sounded close to nipple.

Priya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

Yes Sofya, anyone can make a typo, but that wasn't the dumb moment.

What was silly was to hope the typo wouldn't be on all the photocopies.

Having said that, the error still doesn't make Rachel dumb, she probably just panicked - but my point was that if Joey had done that, he'd have been called a dumbass (and probably also for the typo).

My other point was that Joey *quickly* came back with a sarcasm.

Tennant

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:KGkK8.215$[email]...

My son's a single guy and he said he learned about this before he reached the 5th grade in elementary school. : )

In article , "Laurie" wrote:

Well, I didn't learn until Tana told me on May 24th that in fact only a very small percentage of labours start with the water breaking.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

The point is you knew what "water breaking" is.

Sofya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

The point is that education is not the same as intelligence.

Tennant

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Please don't accept this Priya, for you don't have to.

Even if I agreed with all of Claire's examples from Season One (and in fact I deny most of them) she hasn't found very many.

There are far more examples of Joey being clever in Season One.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

I got tired of being told that I was aggravated, when I really wasn't. I had to say that to make them understand that. You're not going to accuse me pulling a Priya here, are you? :)

Well, I still say that we should get people to see what they think is dumb and what isn't. It will be more fun than discussing the cliffhanger IMO.

Maybe you could whip up a list of his best moments and we'll let the opposing camp take aim. :)

I see that you have answered to several posts on this thread. I guess you've caught up with your posts. I disagreed with several of her examples as well but what's the point of discussing it, if the other party fails to respond to them.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Okay, I shan't. But on on a level where this matter is treated as inconsistent writing, Joey is rarely written like that. By a huge amount he is written as an ordinary guy who occasionally makes mistakes, more often out-thinks some of his friends, but suffers from 'wasting' his high school years on sex.

Unfortunately, most people equate education with intelligence, and they *hate* to be told that this is not necessarily so: especially if they or their children have qualifications or well-paid jobs.

It's an enterprise doomed to endless wrangling, I fear.

They wouldn't accept that his best moments were anything of the sort, despite the fact that to prove Joey is not a dumbass, his best moments are not required, his ordinary moments should be sufficient.

Yep. I've had a lot of free time while friends and/or colleagues have done nothing but watch football, or talk about it. <yawn>

Well, give Claire a chance. I've seen her responding to replies earlier on, and it could take her quite a while to get round to the rest. I went from May 31st to June 10th without replying.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

<sarc>How generous of you.</sarc> ;)

Absolutely. The casual viewer would easily buy any story they write because the show has been going on for eight years and none of them have been consistantly dumb or smart. Unlike other shows, Joey is not the designated dumb guy. If he were, he would never have his clever moments or more popularly known as Joey's intuitive and insightful moments. :)

I don't think that's quite it because nobody has any problem accepting that Phoebe is quite intelligent.

Yeah. Claire suggests that we start a new thread when the new season begins with a couple of the Dumb Joey moments or just one single scene and take a vote on ATF to get the general consensus. What do you think?

Exactly, that scene with Joey and his dad is an ordinary moment and by no means dumb. Ross or Monica would have gone Mental if it was their parents. Chandler fumbled up his sentences when talking to his mom about her kiss with Ross.

You're yawning about the World Cup. You're the first guy I've come across to do this. :)

No, that's not what I meant. I have sorted it out through emails, which is why she suggested the new poll thread when the season begins. I don't think she is going to continue posting in this thread but I can't be sure.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

lol

Exactly.

Oh Priya, sweetheart, there have been *huge* arguments about Phoebe being stupid! It all goes back to the education=intelligence thing.

I'm not sure that democracy is the way to go.

Apocryphal tales of Tennessee voting to make pi=3 come to mind.

Oh yes, "You kissed my best Ross".

And Rachel had her dumb hat on as well, writing about "heaving beasts", a "niffle", "huge throbbing pens", and "public hair".

BTW, his mother was quite something - from the director's cut...

NORA: (to Ross) I heard about the divorce. Lesbian, huh?

ROSS: Yeah.

NORA: Well you know what they say: be careful what you wish for.

I'm the first *honest* guy you've come across to do this.

A lot of guys are just going along with the herd, (like Chandler).

Oh, okay.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Oh, okay. I haven't seem them. So, somebody managed to convince people...

She was just adding to my initial suggestion. She didn't think any good would come out of it either.

lol

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Grin.

Oh okay, sincere apologies to Claire. :)

Tennant

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

Oh, come on, Joey tried to turn around a metaphor, *quickly* realised that it wasn't going to work, and had to back off. I agree that Oscar Wilde could have done better, but I probably would have hit the same problem. However, what you overlook here is that Joey was *not* slow.

Well, you sound very open-minded there Claire, except you have totally ignored the fact that a little later in the episode, Joey demonstrated that he had learnt enormously from his experience...

(Carol is ready to give birth, yet Ross & Susan are missing.)

CAROL: Where are they?

MONICA: I'm sure they'll be here soon.

RACHEL: Yeah, honey, they wouldn't miss this.

   JOEY: Relax. You're only at nine centimetres, and the baby's
         at zero station.

CHANDLER: You are really frightening me.

Once again, there is nothing wrong with ignorance, but one attribute of people who actually are dumb is they have no desire to learn.

Also note how threatened Chandler feels.

Well Claire, since you realise that's not an example of dumbness, then I shall not disagree with you. :)

Another lame example which even you don't believe in, Claire.

Joey did know that China was a country, he was just checking. It's not every day that a friend suddenly announces that he has to go to the other side of the world.

That is so not an example of stupidity. Joey was making sure that Chandler didn't make the mistake which he himself had avoided.

Oh, come on Claire, could Monica *be* any more vague?

And how many men have the slightest idea about pleasuring the woman rather than themselves? What we do know is that Chandler knew little for another three years, but instead being bloody vague, Monica drew him a diagram. I bet if she'd drawn a diagram for Joey, that would be regarded as proof that he is stupid.

That it certainly was Claire.

I haven't bothered to count how many examples you found in Season One, but I would hereby like to apologise for accusing you of wasting your time - I stupidly failed to anticipate how perfunctory you would be.

Having said that, even if all of your examples were valid, and IMO only a few of them were, I can list far more examples that that of Joey being clever in Season One. (Not a genius, just non-dumbass).

So even if we take Sofya's POV, that we should count up how often the dull blade is used compared with the sharp blade, the sharp blade would come out on top if I could be bothered to do it.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Exactly. I was thinking the same thing. It's not very easy to think of a good comeback quickly. I remembered an episode from Seinfeld where George thought of good comebacks hours later and went back to the tell the guy off. Now that is being terribly dumb.

I have stated the same point several times and I don't know why Claire refuses to accept this.

He may have thought that Ross was heading off to Chinatown in New York. It's not such a ridiculous notion.

Lol. True, true.

I suggested that we take a vote on his supposed dumb moments and got told off for suggesting it. If people who firmly believe that Joey is dumb aren't confidant enough to take a critical view of their opinions, should they be questioning other people's opinions?

Priya

p r i y a wrote:

No. Ridiculous is to deny the obvious joke that Joey thought Ross was going somewhere else than the country. Why would someone say he is off to China when he's only going to Chinatown? You might argue that it was a rhetorical question, since Joey was so surprised to see his friend leaving for China all of a sudden though. But even then, this would be digging too deep, the conversation was set up to end with Ross's punchline, they didn't think about how it made Joey look dumb or how at face value it makes Joey look dumb although it actually shows he thinks of other "China's" since the country is too far for Ross to leave on such a short notice, especially since it's Rachel's birthday

Andr�

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:ae4ncp$rdp$[email]...

going

rhetorical

It wasn't until later in the script that it became clear Joey thought the idea of China as a country required careful clarification - when somebody else said Ross was going to China, he carefully interjected "The country!" as if going to another China was going to make Ross miss Rachel's birthday.

I have one question for which I want a straight answer. Is there or is there not one correct way to interpret a joke so it actually works as a joke?

abrahammy wrote:

That actually depends. People may understand things in different ways and still find it funny, so the joke may work, but not in the way originally intended. The joke in the balcony scene was Ross's pun, when Joey had to ask if he meant the country China and Ross said something about the his mother's dishes. The joke in that situation wasn't whether Joey was dumb or not. I'm actually getting tired with this kind of debate, it's more than pointless, next thing we know, we'll debate over whether Monica is really an obsessive neat freak or not. I know there are episodes to support the idea that she is not that much of an obsessive neat freak, but that's just so because that episode required her to be less obsessive.

Same with Joey, he definitely has one hell of a lot of slow moments, he has his dumb moments (getting locked up in an entertainment centre TWICE) and he has his bright moments. Everybody should bear in mind that this is a comedy show and the viewers are not supposed to ponder who's more intelligent than whom, who's slow moments are worse etc. These characters were presented to us with character traits, Joey's was to often have a hard time grasping implications, Ross's was to be almost too geeky to bear, Monica's is obsessive neatness, Rachel's is to be spoilt and always get away with whatever she does, Chandler's is his OTT sarcasm - and that is the only one that has vanished.

The characters are not the same as they were in S1, but these major character traits are still there, the characters have been written and built around these traits for eight years. I can easily dig up evidence for each of these character traits from the 8th season, the whole problem here is that people sometimes focus their analysis on episodes that contradict these original character traits, build their own "Friends" world around it and come up with a completely different conclusion than an average viewer does, who simply accepts what is presented to him, without spending countless hours debating over every single aspect of the show or even scenes, as it happens here.

And since no one here is an average viewer and all of us have a certain interpretation of the events in "Friends"-Land, these kind of arguments will never get very far, because there's people strongly supporting the idea that Joey's a little slow, who can easily list a ton of incidents that support this, but the other side can easily point out evidence to counter this idea as well. Mind you, this show has been on for nearly 200 episodes, they can't have the characters do the same thing all the time. Yet I think it is fair to say that the aforementioned character traits still matter and cannot be overlooked. (And now I forgot where I originally wanted to go with this...)

Also, after having read Tennant's new contributions to this thread, I think the argument here is also down to a definition of terms. Tennant says one of Joey's clever moments was in 201, when he tells Rachel that she should tell Ross about how she feels. Although this was definitely a very good Joey scene, I don't think 'clever' is the most appropriate adjective to describe Joey in that scene, 'insightful' or 'understanding' are more suited IMO. But at the end of the day I think I can say with a lot of certainty that both Tennant and I think of the scene in the same way, it's just that I put it down to Joey's intuition and his 'natural talent' to be there for his friends and help them with their problems and Tennant puts it down to Joey's intellect.

On another occasion, Tennant and I were talking about 302, people joined the discussion and Tennant mentioned how Joey out-smarted Chandler every time in their little chair fight. That is definitely true, yet I don't think it has much to do with intelligence, rather with 'little boy instinct' (for the lack of a better term), but as I said before this is a question of perception/interpretation and no amount of posts from no one is going to change anyone's perception here.

However to get back to the original question of Joey's intelligence, I think everybody can agree that he lacks education, likely due to how he spent high school and that he is very intuitive, helpful and carin when his friends are concerned - and that's what matters, not only on TV (the show is called 'Friends', not 'Intellectuals') but also in RL.

The End. ;)

Andr�

Hey, Tennant, there is one thing we can all agree on with respect to Joey:

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

Jamie's older sister, whom you'd think was younger?

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

Yep ;-) When she got the job at Klarik's, Jamie explained it by saying she's a "retailing savant". --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

My mother was the middle one of three sisters, and she was always assumed to be the oldest, while her elder sister was always assumed to be the youngest.

Lol

Tennant

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:43:17 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:

Maybe that's why Joey was checking to be sure. How often do these guys just pack up and travel halfway across the planet without any warning?

That line can be interpreted in any way to suit your opinion of Joey. I don't see it altering the joke. It wasn't the stupidity in his line but his astonishment that was the joke. IMO.

If we assume he's dumb, then it's funny because it had to be spelt out to him that Ross was indeed going to China.

If we don't think he's dumb then, it's still funny because of the astonishment he expresses at the idea of Ross going off to China, the country!! To me, it was the way that line was delivered.

Either way, the *joke* works.

It would have worked if Chandler had said it too. We'd all be saying that it was Chandler being sarcastic but since Joey said it, it's got to be dumb!!

Is it okay, if we interpret a situation the way *we* see it as long as we still find it funny? All that matters is that people laugh at it. To argue that the joke is taken away unless viewed in one particular angle isn't true with every situation or character.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

China

China

the

look

Chandler wouldn't say something like that.

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:...

Chandler has said things far more stupid than some of the things Joey has. Not to mention, the unintelligible garbage he emits when he is stuck for words.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

was

seems

It's

was

deep,

think

the

especially

Ohhhhh....now you went too far... I'm guessing that this thread is affecting you personally...maybe someone you know has experienced being called stupid/slow and you don't like someone being called that. But Chandler cannot in any way be compared to Joey. I have to go somewhere now...but I'll be sure to write more when I come back.

Sofya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

This is Rachel's birthday party in 124 "TOW Rachel Finds Out", just after Chandler gave her a stupid gift which she handed back to him in disgust, and Joey gave her a sensitive & thoughtful present which she liked. Rachel then opened a gift from Ross, an antique broach...

PHOEBE: Oh, it's so pretty. This must have cost him a fortune.

MONICA: I can't believe he did this.

CHANDLER: Come on, Ross? Remember when he fell in love with Carol, and bought her that ridiculously expensive crystal duck?

(Everyone looks at Chandler, who realizes he just stupidly spilled the beans about Ross's crush on Rachel.)

RACHEL: What did you just say?

CHANDLER: Ahem... um... Crystal duck.

RACHEL: No, no, no... the, um, the... 'love' part?

CHANDLER: (stuttering incoherently) F-hah... flennin... (and rubbing his temples) Oh, no no no no no...

JOEY: (pats Chandler on the leg) That's good, just keep rubbing your head. That'll turn back time.

..so, who was the dumbass in that scene?

Tennant

Sofya wrote:

That's not true, he said something similar just a few moments later:

JOEY: Go to China, eat chinese food

CHANDLER: Of course there they only call it food

It's not that different from "The country?"....

Andr�

In article , "Cookie Dude" writes:

Actually, I took that a different way. Chandler was pointing out the absurdity of Joey referring to food in China as "chinese food", which usually is how we refer in America to food at a Chinese restaurant. In China, they might go to the McDonalds in Beijing and say, "let's have some American food". --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

JamesS1889 wrote:

I took it the same way, I just wanted to point out that it was as silly from Chandler to make that remark, than it was from Joey to ask "China? The country?"

Andr�

In article , "Cookie Dude" writes:

How so? I don't see them as the same myself. Chandler's comment may have seemed unnecessary, but Joey's question seemed ridiculous. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

JamesS1889 wrote:

Imagine the following: It's one of your best friend's birthday and another friend of yours comes over and tells you that he has to go to China all of a sudden. Would you not be surprised? It seems that there's two opinions on this line, one group that thinks Joey was just asking because he was so surprised to see Ross leaving on *Rachel's* birthday and the other group thinks Joey doesn't know that the country China exists. Either way, Joey's remark was only to set up Ross's punchline.

Andr�

"Cookie Dude" wrote in message news:aef2te$4bf$[email]...

a

When I saw it I took it as he was surprised that he was going to China. It isn't every day that one of them goes to China. Especially at the last minute like Ross did.

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 00:42:55 GMT, "Amy and Dave" wrote:

Andre, I don't think he was surprised Ross was leaving on Rachel birthday. He was just surprised that he was leaving all the way to China on such short notice.

It's really quite obvious in this thread that many people see the jokes differently. There is no point arguing that a particular joke was written with only one possible explanation unless a writers comes on here and tells us that he wrote the joke with Dumb Joey in mind. That's not going to happen. I don't see a problem so as long as people still find a joke funny however different their interpretation of it is.

Priya

p r i y a wrote:

I don't think Joey was surprised because it was Rachel's birthday, but it could have added to the surprise

Andr�

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:03:31 +0200, "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Maybe. Too bad he wasn't around for the birthday, though. :)

Priya

In article , "Amy and Dave" wrote:

Absolutely. Is that Amy, Dave, or both of you talking? :)

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

It

Sorry, I just saw this post. This is Amy. Dave never posts, but I keep his name on anyway.

In article , "Amy and David Tutschek" wrote:

No worries, Amy - say "Hi" to David for me. :)

Tennant

Either way, Joey's

As so many of Joey's "dumb" lines are. Some succeed, some are cheap. Slow or not, he's still my favorite Friend!

In article , "Cookie Dude" wrote:

Exactly. It's what's known as a credibility gap.

Yeah, I agree that the second group exists, but it's ridiculous for them to believe that, since Joey did say that China was country.

Yes, the writers probably spent a thousandth of the time on this that we have.

Tennant

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

You can't believe that Joey did not know what China was.

It was just before a friend's birthday party, when another friend (whom Joey knows to be in love with the guest of honour) suddenly announces that he's going to the other side of the world. That's a surprising thing to happen. Joey was surprised. Why do you find that hard to get?

And since Joey asked "China? The country?" that proves he *did* know that China was a country, else how would he know to say that?

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

*I* never expressed any doubt about why Joey would be surprised. It's his choice of a comeback that was obviously lame.

*I* never said that Joey didn't know China was a country. *My* question is: what else could it be in the context of this conversation?????? --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

In article , [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

Well, I'm not claiming that Joey is a great wit or raconteur.

Oh, fair enough then. :)

Tennant

On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:43:17 GMT, "abrahammy" wrote:

I'd say that there's not a correct way to interpret a joke. As long as you think it's funny, the joke is successful. For instance, international viewers interpret a joke very differently than American viewers. One example of this is the teaser scene for 112 TOW the Dozen Lasagnas where the characters are singing the theme songs from "The Odd Couple" and "I Dream of Jeannie." The first time I saw the episode, I had no idea what they were singing since I had never seen any of the shows, but I still found it to be a funny scene. It wasn't until years later that I realised what songs they were singing. But the interaction between the characters (Ross and Monica in particular) was still enjoyable. My point is that your background will define what you find funny, so there's no way a joke is interpreted the same way by various viewers.

[email] (p r i y a) wrote in news:[email]:

My impression was just that he was just showing surprise (as in, 'Really?'). I doubt he thought Ross was heading somewhere other than the country; the idea that the Joey thought he was going to Chinatown might work if people referred to Chinatown in NY as 'China,' which, to my knowledge, they don't.

The following gag off of Joey's 'the country?' didn't seem to me to be intended as Joey making sure his friends didn't make the same mistake, but rather as him misreading a situation or being slow to catch on. It seemed pretty clear to me that that time he was meant to be the butt of 'dumb' joke, but of course, YMMV (and clearly, reading this thread, it varies wildly from person to person).

"Anesly" <devnullatdeadletter.org> wrote in message news:[email]...

to me that that time he was meant to be the butt of

YMMV?

Sofya

[Thu, 13 Jun 2002 03:01:21 GMT] "Sofya" wrote:

http://www.ucc.ie/acronyms/ (Your Mileage May Vary)

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Absolutely. But Joey only has to achieve a good comeback to prove that he's a wit & raconteur, and nobody is claiming that. We merely maintain that Joey is not a dumbass, and for that an average response suffices, as long as it comes fairly quickly. Joey usually does respond quickly, but because there are a handful of occasions where he takes his time, he is regarded by some fans as being slow. But not only is he capable of being fast, he is far more often fast than slow.

In this example of Claire's, he wasn't very witty, but he was fast.

Well, like I've said many times before, it's not people assuming that Joey is dumb which annoys me, it's denying all the times that he is clever - and also having to tell people that "clever" is not "genius".

That's a cute suggestion, but in fact is that Joey *did* know that China is a country, he was questioning the likelihood that Ross was suddenly about to go there. It's not as though this happened...

ROSS: I have to go to China.

JOEY: The pile of dishes?

Yeah. In fact one could argue that Monica was being dumb here, since after using a vague expression, and being asked what she meant, she stupidly repeated the same vague expression, instead of explaining.

This is it. We've had debates on this subject before, and the amount of denial of any cleverness by Joey is astonishing, or even worse it is patronised away as being instinctive, as though he's a migrating bird or something. This is why I won't list such examples.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Its not denial. Speaking for myself, I do not count him as clever in many of those instances that you said months ago when he had this discussion.

Sofya

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

See, her objection is that by analysing these scenes, we are losing the humor in them. I don't think so. None of the examples that have been countered lose their humor element. It's funny for different reasons to different people but its still funny and that's what counts.

Right.

Thanks but it was a dumb suggestion. :)

ROTFL! :)

If we go by what happened in 804, it can well be argued that Joey was really getting her to say it out loud, even though he had got it the first time around.

Okay.

Priya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

Well, Claire brought it up, and her intent was not amusement, but to demonstrate that Joey is a step slow at trash talking.

Thanks.

Since you said it, I shan't argue.

Yep.

How exactly do you mean?

Right.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

Monica is vaguely hinting at how he should try pleasuring his girlfriend. She never really spelled it out to him but Joey did get it because he followed her advice. I'm saying that he knew what she was getting at, right from the start. He was just teasing to get her to say it out loud, just like he did in 804 with Ross .

Priya

In article , p r i y a wrote:

Gotcha. Thanks, sweetie. :)

Tennant

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

What about Tennant saying that it didn't matter how many examples Claire gives of Joey being stupid/slow that it wouldn't mean anything?

Sofya

"Dennis" wrote in message news:[email]...

has

What happened? Got killfiled?

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:adb5mo$lp7$[email]...

things

opinion

A long time ago, yea.

"Dennis" wrote in message news:[email]...

is

he

don't

see

Why? After what conversation, or argument? I seem to remember a lot of fuss about Tennant killfiling someone...was that you that they were talking about?

Sofya

As I move on to Season Two, right off the bat I come up with a doozy; this one created classic quotes.

In 201 Chandler needs a tailor, and Joey has a suggestion.

At first it's just about mathematical difficulty.

Joey: Needs some clothes altered?

Chandler: No, no, I'm just looking for a man to draw on me with chalk.

Joey: Why don't you go see Frankie? My family's been goin' to him forever. He did my first suit when I was 15. No wait, 16. No, 'scuse me, 15. (still confused) All right, when was 1990?

Chandler: Okay. You have to stop the Q-tip when there's resistance!<<<

The following day, Joey's still pondering how old he is.

Joey: (to Chandler) You know, I think I was sixteen.<<<

His "secret" messages are pretty straightforward.

got pants that need to be altered.

Joey: Hey, Chandler, when you see Frankie, tell him Joey Tribbiani says hello. He'll know what it means.

Chandler: Are you sure he's gonna be able to crack that code?<<<

The result of Chandler's visit is now the stuff of legend, and produced one of Ross' most famous lines.

(Pause) Your tailor is a very bad man!

Joey: Frankie? What're you talking about?

Ross: (entering from the bedroom) Hey, what's goin' on? (Pats Chandler on the shoulder which causes him to jump.)

Chandler: Joey's tailor...took advantage of me.

Ross: What?

Joey: No way. I've been going to the guy for 12 years.

Chandler: Oh come on! He said he was going to do my inseam, and he ran his hand up my leg, and then, there was definite...

Ross: What?

Chandler: Cupping.

Joey: That's how they do pants! First they go up one side, they move it over, then they go up the other side, they move it back, and then they do the rear. (Chandler and Ross stare at him) What? Ross, Ross, would you tell him? Isn't that how they measure pants?

Ross: Yes, yes it is. In prison! Whatsa matter with you?

Joey: What? That's not? (Realizes) Oh my God.<<<

"Sofya" wrote in message news:adc42t$cet$[email]...

absolutely

smart

showing

fuss

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

Have you not stopped to think that this is a classic example of child abuse? This tailor has been carrying out his evil treatment of young boys for years. What is going on with the Catholic church in America right now shows that this sort of thing does happen.

Also, you have once again completely ignored a prime example of Joey being clever in this episode, when he counsels Rachel about her emotional difficulties, and more importantly she shows great respect for what he has to say.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

If we regard that as being dumb, then Tribbiani Senior must be super dumb. This was a situation that has been acknowledged by his dad as the norm. As a child, he has accepted that as a fact until confronted by his friends. If we are calling anyone dumb here, it's really his dad who is the dumb guy.

I think we really need to see that clever Joey moments list, don't you? ;)

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message >

Do you expect me to do it after the way you've treated me?

"abrahammy" wrote in message news:...

I realise that I had gotten hostile somewhere in the middle of this thread. You kept telling me that I'm aggravated and that I'm objecting too much when all I was doing was to trying to discuss with you. That was what bugged me more than anything else. I don't come onto ATF to get worked up and tell off everyone but if people think they can assess my frame of mind from a words off a post just because I don't agree with them, there's nothing I can do about that.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

You also insulted me.

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:...

What makes you say that? Because I don't think I have. Anyway, I could say the same to you. You are the one who told me to clue into the real world. I chose to ignore that comment and I really don't want to start arguing on a personal level with you. Peace!

I have since sorted things out with Claire and hope that posts in this thread will not involve any personal digs either way.

Priya.

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

I guess you should disregard my earlier post then if you don't want to see something personal(i guess its too late now since this is a later post)

Sofya

In article , [email] (p r i y a) wrote:

That's right, and also Joey's uncles.

I still have severe doubts about Joey's life as young boy, although lots of fans seem to think it's quite healthy that adultery is so easily tolerated, or his mother left the little boy in cinemas, or that even now she still hits him and he accepts that as normal.

I'm afraid that wouldn't do much good. A list of dumb Chandler, dumb Ross, dumb Monica, or dumb Rachel moments might help though.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:...

I guess it pales in comparison with Chandler's childhood. Since we've always been told that he comes from a big family and he is close to them all, it's often thought that he had a normal childhood. I think he more or less did with the odd exceptions of being left at the cinema. What he did in high school can hardly be attributed to his parents. I didn't find anything wrong with his mom hitting him. It was supposed to be funny and it was just a little whack. :)

If you're upto it. :)

Priya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:adc42t$cet$[email]...

absolutely

smart

showing

fuss

Yes it was me and then it was Andre but I he is off the killfile list now. I don't know if all the fuss you remember is from either of the two incidences.

Dennis wrote:

Most likely

Andr�

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

Ben's

I disagree with your reasoning on this one Tennant. There's an Arabic expression (Well, I think it's Arabic) that says, "There is wisdom in the insane." Meaning that you can't discount anyone because even the insane might hold a pearl of wisdom.

So, to say that a person is not dumb simply because he has had a moment or two of wisdom doesn't seem logical to me. One must look at a preponderance of the evidence and judge accordingly. Indeed, Joey might be dumb or might not be, based on the scale you use to judge the information on the whole.

Personally, I think it's a no-brainer that Joey is a bit lacking in wit and general knowledge. He has math skills that come and go. He's typically the last one to understand a joke or a hidden meaning (if he gets it at all). Aside from things that start with the letter v, he has little knowledge of the world around him. He even thinks Vermont is another country--which makes me wonder how well he retained his knowledge about things that start with v.

BUT Joey understands feelings clearly. He has grown into quite an intuitive person. He is fiercely loyal, and always sincere ("I didn't get the part" jokes aside.)

You can trust Joey. (I won't add a spoiler here, but if you've read some of my other posts, you can probably see where the dynamics around trust might lead.)

So, MY conclusion is that Joey IS slow, but not so slow that you can't deal with it. His loyalty and sincerity win out.

In article , "David Buehrle" wrote:

I would accept that if Joey had only a moment or two of wisdom then this could be put down to chance. OTOH, I would argue that if he'd had more than two moments then that would be sufficient.

However David, it turns out that we need not go further in this aspect of the debate, for in her steady episode-by-episode analysis of S1, Claire found only a handful of examples, of which most were invalid.

Even this need not be debated, for even if all of Claire's examples were valid, there are far more examples in S1 of Joey being clever (by which I mean not being dumb, I don't claim he's a genius). So even if we did weigh dumbness against cleverness, cleverness is preponderant.

Except that there are many examples where the reverse is true, yet they are either casually overlooked, or wilfully ignored.

Indeed.

Yes, I know what you mean.

Except that Joey is more often NOT slow, as was demonstrated even by one of Claire's examples intended to demonstrate that he is stupid.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

the

One incident of dumbness an episode is enough to claim he is more stupid/slow than not. (IMO...although I don't know why I have to state that...who else's opinion could it be? lol)

Sofya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

There isn't one incident of dumbness per episode.

Claire just went through a whole season, and only found a few.

And one of those I had to tell her, she'd missed it.

Tennant

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:16:04 -0400, "Sofya" wrote:

Claire couldn't find an incidence of dumbness in every episode. She went through an entire season and found a handful of which some where wrong and others were subject to personal interpretation.

It's like this: Joey has... ...smart days ...dumb days ...regular days

Let's do the math. :) Regular days + Smart days > Dumb days.

So, he's not dumb, he's not a genius but an average guy. :)

Priya

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

No, he just had a hamstring injury. The point is that one example of him running means that he's a runner, no matter how many times I happen to see him sitting on the couch.

You can go on like this for days if you like, but you are wasting your time; which is a shame, since you are usually such a good commentator.

You're still not listening. It is fallacious that what makes someone stupid is having a dull blade in their knife. Me, you, we all have a dull blade.

What makes someone stupid is the absence of a sharp blade in their knife.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

"abrahammy"

Okay, so because she does not agree with you she's a bad commentator?

stupid

Except Joey pulls out the dull blade in every episode, and the sharp blade a few times a season. Which is why most people agree that Joey is slow. I have changed my mind and will not say Joey is dumb because of the definition you gave for dumb (dumb means you're always dumb and clever means that you are one-time or more clever).

Sofya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

I didn't say that, you did. I'd rather see Claire make more productive use of her great talent as a commentator and communicator. On several occasions she has taught me a great deal, and I like & admire her.

I'm glad to see you acknowledge that Joey does have a sharp blade, but its use is far more often than a few times per season.

That's because smart people are often dumb, so you can't use examples of being dumb to prove that they are never clever.

Tennant

In article , [email] (Tennant Stuart) usenetted:

Yes, but arguably Joey is a dumb person who is occasionally smart. So either 1) he's inconsistently written or 2) he's capable of random acts of intelligence -- ie, if you add things up and get them persistently wrong, once in a while, just through chance, you're going to get it right or 3) he's smart when the writers think it will be funny (and it is funny, because we're always surprised when it happens) or 4) he's really smart but thinks his friends won't like him if they know so he covers it up -- very successfully -- most of the time.

wg

In article , [email] wrote:

Actually, for the vast majority of the time, he's just an ordinary guy. Sometimes he makes mistakes, and sometimes he out-thinks his friends. But many fans ignore or overlook it when he is clever.

Well, try adding up $4.50+$2.75+$4.25+$1.25 in your head, quickly.

It's not that hard, but it's not all that easy either.

Now try doing the same addition, but *at*random*.

How often do you get the right answer?

Even if you are never more than 50� out with each addition, there are 1,030,301 possible combinations, of which *one* was the right answer, and another 7,650 were right because the errors happened to cancel out. That leaves 1,022,650 ways of getting it wrong.

Yet Joey got the right answer in in less than 3 seconds.

Well, the thing is that the writers write the other characters as being dumb also, but that gets ignored or overlooked. For example, unlike Joey getting maths right in his head, we've seen Ross using a pocket calculator, and still getting the answer wrong. (205)

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

What about Joey thinking about "500+500"??

Sofya

"Sofya" wrote in message news:...

Lazy and inconsistant writing.

Priya

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

[email]

examples

acts

wrong,

really

covers it

Not to mention human nature...I don't know about the rest of you, but when I owe someone that kind of money I don't jump to tally high numbers.

Katie

"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:raYN8.36939$[email]...

is

I

Excuses...Excuses. Matt LeBlanc even said that Joey isn't the brightest crayon in the box or whatever the expression.

Sofya

In article , "res0vdhd" wrote:

This is true Katie, and the writers actually addressed this situation in one of the episodes I was referring to, 613 "TOW Rachel's Sister"...

  JOEY: Okay Rach, that's muffin & espresso, $4.50; Ross, double latte,
        $2.75; Chandler, coffee & a scone, $4.25; and Pheebs, herbal
        tea, $1.25. So, altogether that's (he pauses for less than 3
        seconds to figure the total in his head) $12.75.

CHANDLER: This coming from the man who couldn't split our 80 dollar phone bill in half.

Joey was the third waiter/waitress on MAY/Friends, and unlike Ursula and Rachel, the only one of the three who was any good it.

Tennant

"p r i y a" wrote in message news:[email]...

news:...

[email]

examples

acts

wrong,

really

covers it

Then the same would go with Ross becoming Mental Gellar.

Sofya

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message

stupid

No, what makes someone stupid is the tendency to use the dull blade more often than the sharp one. Joey uses his dull blade more often than his sharp one.

Here's another scene from TOW all the Poker. The transcriptionist had an editorial comment. Rachel is very upset because she lost a job offer, and she's playing some very aggressive, high stakes poker. Ross has to raise the stakes.

Rachel: OK, then get me your purse.

(Monica gets Rachel her purse.)

Monica: OK, here you go. Good luck.

Rachel: (to Monica): Thank you. (to Ross): I saw your twenty-five, and I raise you... seven.

Phoebe: ...teen! (throws in a ten-dollar bill)

(Ross looks in his wallet, pulls out two dollars.)

Ross: (to Joey): Joey, I'm a little shy.

Joey: That's OK, Ross, you can ask me. What?

(Ross looks at Joey, dumbfounded at his stupidity.) <<<

In article , "abrahammy" wrote:

If Joey was dumb he wouldn't have a sharp blade to use.

It's not a question of counting dumb versus clever actions, to then calculate which predominates. Everybody does dumb things, so finding dumb examples proves nothing. What you must do is evaluate all of Joey's actions, and show that none of them are clever.

I could produce a list of clever actions that contained far more than a few entries, but it's unnecessary since only a few are required, and you already concede that they exist.

BTW, in the above paragraphs, "clever" does not mean super-intelligent, it just means not being dumb, so please don't misinterpret that. :)

Oh, come on Claire, that's a weak example, (or weak writing if you prefer). Ross was being rather vague, and Joey took him literally.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

knife.

Not all people are always dumb or always smart or always boring or always intuitive or...etc..etc. Stupid/Slow("dumb" in the above sentence) can have a sharp blade because no one is always something.

Joey does have a sharp blade but that doesn't make him a normal guy or any less stupid/extremely slow.

He was not...do British people not know what that expression means "i'm a little shy"?

Sofya

In article , "Sofya" wrote:

Well, at least you do admit that Joey has a sharp blade.

The very fact that you have to ask that question shows that you are talking about education, not intelligence.

And in Britain it's quite common for someone to be a bit embarrassed about having to borrow money from a friend, so they would be shy.

Tennant

"Tennant Stuart" wrote in message news:[email]...

any

a

I'm assuming it would also go the other way, by meaning "I'm a little short [of cash]." True?

In article , "David Buehrle" wrote:

Yeah, perhaps "I'm a bit short" is more colloquial, but you'd be shy when you admitted it. Of course, if the person is not tall, that is also open to misinterpretation.

Tennant

In article , Tennant Stuart writes:

I think it was patently obvious that Ross was not shy in that way. You can argue that Joey was just being clever and giving Ross a hard time, but if he truly thought Ross was afraid to ask for money, then he was wrong. --- James Squire - http://members.aol.com/jamess1889 IDF Soldiers' Combatant Letter 2002 - http://seruv.nethost.co.il/defaulteng.asp Personal Testimony of an Israeli Refusenik - http://www.shalomctr.org/html/peace84.html

On 14 Jun 2002 14:23:35 GMT, [email] (JamesS1889) wrote:

Y'know, he did just that in 804 TOW the Videotape:

Ross: Filming Rachel is not something I planned. Okay look, here�s what happened, and Joey you-you can back me up on this. All right, about-about a month and a half ago I came to you with a problem? Umm, a personal thing. Joey: Personal thing? What personal thing? I don't know. Ross: About.. about sex? (Joey looks at him confused) That I hadn't had sex in months? Joey: (laughs) Yeah I knew what you were talkin� about.

Marita Bakken wrote:

The scenes in TOW all the poker and TOW the videotape are totally different though. In 118, it is perfectly obvious that Joey doesn't understand what Ross means if you look at his reaction once Chandler asks Ross how much money he needs, whereas in 804 Joey pretends not to know what Ross means to embarrass him in front of his friends.

Andr�

In article , [email] (Marita Bakken) wrote: