Pboebe and Ross, Phoebe and Chandler (NO SPOILERS)

This may be old news for most (or all) of the regulars 'round here...

I've had Tennant's idea of Phoebe & Ross buzzing in my head for a while, and the more I think about it, and the more I watch the show, the more I like it. I was once firmly in the R&R crowd, but the writers have done irreparable (sp?) damage to that idea, and show no proclivity towards a good building up towards a reconciliation. So, with Tennant's (unknown) prodding, I've been watching the eps, particularly the last few seasons, with an eye towards R&P interaction and chemistry.

My conclusion: they would make an interesting couple. Obviously, the baggage that exists from the R&R debacle would make things complicated, and an R&P relationship would work better without that, but...

Using Phoebe as the common element, I've also noticed something else: Phoebe doesn't like Chandler very much. Sure, they're friends, and she cares about him -- they had some nice interaction in Season One, but the last few seasons, it's become apparent that Phoebe thinks Monica could do much better and that Chandler is the least regarded of the five to Phoebe.

I realize I don't have all the specific episode references here, but that's what y'all are for. :-)

In article , "Michael Martin" wrote:

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If you recall TOW The Flashback, Ross and Phoebe had a brief, torrid affair after Ross discovers that Carol is a Lesbian. It took place at the hangout with later became Central Perk.

Tifa Lockheart

In article , "Michael Martin" wrote:

Thanks. Your support is most welcome, Martin. :)

The baggage makes for interesting stories. Rachel would go ape.

There's a lot of truth in this, but I'd rather not say any more on this aspect for a few weeks...

YW

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote in message news:[email]...

Please. Call me Michael. I know you meant no offense, but I've never cared for being called by my last name.

In article , "Michael Martin" wrote:

Oh dear, *MICHAEL*, my deepest apologies. I know exactly how you feel, for people are always mistakenly calling me Stuart.

Tennant

I have to disagree. I know I've made it no secret I have an R&R bias, but I still think any other pairing involving these two is a bad idea.

1) It would be ridiculous to throw away 6 years of history. The show has invested too much time building up this relationship. It really needs a satisfactory conclusion to make everything worthwhile. If the writers started a R&P fling, it would destroy the significance of past favorites (TOW Ross Finds Out, TOW Prom Video, etc.). Much of the focus of early seasons has been R&R. Why trash everything for a few cheap laughs?

2) As you said earlier, there would be too many complications. Had the R&R angle completely ended after The Morning After, then maybe. But not anymore. A R&P relationship would not work well with the R&R baggage. It could have a devastating effect on the characterizations. The characters have already changed for the worse, the way it is.

3) Whether you love him or hate him, there is no denying that Ross is the most complex character on the show. The writers have given him loads of attention (good and bad) during the past six years. On the other hand, Phoebe is the least complicated character on the show. She has not received the fair attention that the writers have given the other five. While all the cast members are supposed to be equals, Ross has in fact been a "lead" character and Phoebe a "supporting" character. Why waste a deeply-written character like Ross on an under-written character like Phoebe? In this case, Ross is a much better match for Rachel, and Phoebe would be a better match for Joey, the least-written male.

4) Do we really want yet ANOTHER couple? C&M have proven that relationships on this show just don't work. While endearing at first, the writers run out of ideas quickly. Couples don't stay entertaining. Even though R&P could be funny at first, there is an extremely high risk of creating another Mondler.

5) Ratings. R&R are a proven draw. The writers know this. While not everyone thought they were interesting as a full-time couple, they are a great sweeps weapon. No one beats R&R when it comes to carrying sweeps months and cliffhangers.

Seriously, I think I would rather the writers NOT reunite R&R and leave them alone, than pair them with other people. It would not be good for the show. Still, I believe the best thing for the show next year is a well-written R&R reunion. Whether it happens before the final episode is really up to the writers...

This is only how I feel. I'm sure many of you disagree.

Am I the only one who thinks there have been more C&P signs, than R&P signs, this season?

--Doc

I think that Chandler & Pheobe would be very interesting, but only as a fling..Same thing with Monica and Joey..they would be cute together, but no long term compatibility.

====== es*o*ter*ic b : of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group

2 a : limited to a small circle

In article , [email] (EsotericGrrrl) wrote:

That would be great fun actually, Phyllis. It would certainly rock the C&M boat for a bit! Just as long as they eventually get back again... :)

Tennant

Lol, well I had meant before anyone had gotten together, like if they did a fantasy ep with that idea.

====== es*o*ter*ic b : of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group

2 a : limited to a small circle

I am not to sure if I agree with you that it would be good to reform R&R. It seems that over the years the repoire that the two of them had in the early seasons has dwindled, and it seems (especially in the last season) that their interest in one another has waned. Their characters have changed too, where Ross has become more neurotic and Rachel more shallow. I dont think the chemistry is there anymore. Although I will admit that in the spirit of sappy series finales, R&R will most likely marry. But if you look at it in terms of length of relationship, they were barely a couple. They only lasted not even a season as a full couple. I think the R&R time has passed.

DocDoc2222 wrote:

In article , [email] (DocDoc2222) wrote:

In fact the show spent only 1� years building up the relationship, then the show spent another � year wondering what to do with the relationship, then the show spent another � year tearing the relationship apart, and since then the show has just been teasing you about the relationship for the last 3� years.

Past favourite episodes would still favourites. And still in the past.

It completely ended after Ross & Rachel got divorced.

You would only be happy if Season One lasted for 8 years, wouldn't you? :)

Sorry Doc, but this is patent rubbish. Phoebe is easily the most complex character in the show, so complex in fact that many people are so utterly unable to understand her that they write her off as simple.

The show has always been an ensemble piece. Only fans obsessed with a couple of the characters imagine that their favourites are the leads.

C&M have been far more entertaining as a settled couple than R&R were. They have had a few crap stories, but that's bad writing, not because they are a couple. If what you say was so then *all* their stories would be rubbish.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. R&R carried the best ever cliffhanger in the show at the end of Season One, but since then in my opinion they've been over-rated, since Phoebe's cliffhanger at the end of Season Three, and Monica in Chandler's bed at the close of Season Four were far more enthralling. R&R at the end of Season Five were a surprise, but all we C&M fans were on tenterhooks about them.

So you would rather have the pair be without love forever lest they spoil your own vision of the show?

The best thing for the show is well-written stories of any sort, and it seems to me that this would be facilitated by giving the writers new situations & relationships to explore, rather then constantly rehashing the old ones.

Indeed so, Doc. I've been a bit hard on you, but I'm only giving my opinion as well, and I do recognise it's been hard for R&R fans lately.

There's been some that Phoebe & Chandler do NOT like each other but remain nice to each other for the sake of their friends. But if you just check out the body language on the couch, who sits squashed up against whom?

Tennant

I hate to beat this dead horse, but you state this as though it were an irrefutable(sp.) fact. You also say that C&M may have some "crap" stories but that's because of bad writing and not because they are a couple. I say R&R had some "crap" stories also because of bad writing, not because they were a couple. Most of their "crap" stories were written after the decision was made to break them up. I believe, in all honesty, most people would prefer to see more of the original characters as they were originally written to be, as opposed to how they act now. And that has nothing to do with who is coupled and who isn't.

Laurie

In article , Laurie wrote:

I wouldn't deny this at all, Laurie. I was only replying to DocDoc who said "C&M have proven that relationships on this show just don't work. While endearing at first, the writers run out of ideas quickly. Couples don't stay entertaining"

Well, I'm afraid the show has to move on, Season 1 can't last 8 years.

Tennant

You have to admit that because the writers have shown little inclination to write the characters true to themselves, there is a danger that they may decide next season that Chandler could cheat on Monica because he believes they're on a break, Monica gets upset and breaks it off with him, they go through next season fighting and Chandler loses his mind at work, earning him the name "Mental Bing". Seem familiar? Then how would you feel when we say, "season 7 can't last forever!"?

Laurie

In article , Laurie wrote:

They wouldn't just repeat the Ross & Rachel story, Laurie.

Tennant

You missed my point, Tennant. This was written tongue-in-cheek. I'm not really that stupid to think they would actually repeat the Ross and Rachel story. My point is that given how they've screwed with the characters of R&R, they could also screw with C&M, although I don't think so because the show appears to have only 1 more season left after this one. If this was season 3 or 4, why couldn't the writers have turned their personalities on end also? All I'm saying is that you should think how it would be if the tables were turned.

Laurie

In article , Laurie wrote:

Okay.

Tennant

I won't argue that. But the relationship still existed in one form or another.

Maybe. But the significance of episodes such as TOW Rachel Finds Out would truly perish. Would C&M fans still care about 424 if Monica dumps Chandler for Joey?

Did you see 614? People have thought this relationship dead many times, only to be proven wrong.

Actually, I enjoyed Season 1 through mid-Season 5. I'm probably one of the few people who actually thought Season 4 was great. But the show has since lost steam in my opinion.

Tell that to the writers. We are in the seventh season of Friends, and they still haven't figured out how to use her. Phoebe definitely has potential, but the writers have failed to access it.

I'm not saying Ross is more important to the show than Phoebe. I'm only saying Phoebe hasn't been developed enough by the writers for such a pairing to take place. Remember, R&R were written for each other, and the writers planned C&M years before they paired up. If the writers want to match Phoebe with someone (Joey, Chandler or Ross), they need to give her some serious attention first. We need to be compelled to watch.

That is your personal opinion as a C&M fan. Many people think C&M have been a complete bore as a settled couple.

You are entitled to you opinion. But there is a reason we've seen more R&R cliffhangers, as opposed to Joey cliffhangers.

Everybody has his or her own vision of how the show should end. I only wish the characters stay true to themselves.

I will not argue with that. I'm certainly not against more R&P episodes. But a 'relationship' does not need to be romantic. Look at C&J. Why can't R&P be compelling as just good friends?

This was only meant to be a commentary on R&P. I truly apologize for straying. People will never agree on what should be done with R&R, and I should have left it alone.

All six have sat closely to each other at some point. People see what they want to see.

--Doc

In article , [email] (DocDoc2222) wrote:

Yeah, during which Ross dated 15 other women, married one of them, and accidentally married Rachel who insisted on a divorce. Very promising.

Yes of course, Monica in Chandler's bed would still be a great moment.

There are lots of great Ross & Rachel moments in Season 2 that are still great, even though they fell apart a year later.

She kicked his shin. Wow!!!

Like I said, you're just being teased.

That's a shame. Apart from Janine, Monica's cold, and Joey's fridge, I really enjoyed Season 6, and this season is good fun too.

So you agree now that Phoebe is complex? Too complex for the writers?

This is a good point, for some character development would be required, but that's not to say that they'd be starting from Square One.

Well, C&M fans are going to be more interested in C&M than non-fans are.

In any case, two or three crap C&M stories from 2� seasons does not make them a complete bore as a settled couple, come off it.

Yes, R&R are beating Joey here. But only one R&R cliffhanger has been truly great, or the others were just teasers, carrots to be snatch away as soon as you started to sniff at them.

I still think that would be sad, but it's up to you.

The movie "When Harry Met Sally" had something to say about that...

No need to apologise. :)

It's up to BKC what happens, not us.

Awww, you're tempting me to do a count, but I'll leave that to others.

If you read my reviews, you'll see where I've pointed these moments out, and you are free to find rival ones (apart from C&M) for yourself.

Tennant

Tennant Stuart wrote:

Two or three? Don't get me wrong, I'd have to say I've seen a fairly good number of C&M stories that I thought were quite entertaining and funny(Almost all of them are from the beginning and middle of Season 5). However at the same time, I've also seen a fairly good number of C&M stories that I thought

were completely stupid, repetitive, and ridiculous. I don't know how many exactly, but it sure is alot more than two or three.

My opinion on this subject *is* however, completely influenced by the fact that C&M have never really "grabbed" me as a viewer. To someone like me, C&M became very

boring around the end of Season 5 and the beginning of Season 6. In contrast however, I *can* understand how "C&M fans" would enjoy *most* if not all of their stories. Hence, why you feel they've only had two or three bad stories.

Chris

In article , Chris wrote:

To make your point, you are going to have to list them, Chris.

Since you liked them in Season 5, I would say that since Season 6 began, the crap C&M stories are Monica's head-cold in 613 "TOW Rachel's Sister", competing with Phoebe to provide a date for Rachel in 619 "TOW Joey's Fridge", and Chandler's grimace in 705 "TOW the Engagement Picture".

Some others weren't totally brilliant, but they were not crap either.

That's what fans are like, Chris. I was a huge fan of Ross & Rachel myself until the shine came off the gingerbread.

Tennant

DocDoc2222 wrote in message news:[email]...

Please do not snip attributions.

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started

been

I was speaking speculatively about R&P. While I agree the show HAD too much invested in the relationship, much (for me, all) of the chemistry and tension between R&R has been lost for at least two seasons, if not more.

R&R

anymore.

have a

I agree that it would be too much for the friends to handle and remain friends. No way realistically people could take that, and even on a fairly unrealistic show like Friends, believing Rachel and others could smoothly deal with a R&P relationship is too much to accept.

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attention

I think Chandler is a close if not equal character in complexity. Ross used to be the character I most identified with, but that has changed, especially since the advent of Shouting Ross. Chandler, also, has been diminished since the advent of C&M.

I think Joey is the least complicated. Doesn't mean I don't like him, or think him of lesser value, but he is far simpler than Phoebe.

character and

like

much

Personality wise, I think Joey and Phoebe would be a bad match. And while I have been a proponent of R&R, I always thought Ross could do better (ducking all the stones and rotten vegetables thrown at me).

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out of

Mondler.

We don't want another couple. My post was basically speculative, not wishful. Creating another couple would stretch the bounds of believability to breaking as well as wreaking havoc internally with the characters' emotional lives.

everyone

sweeps

I know that TPTB take ratings arguments seriously, but I don't. Bruce Willis' storyline garnered great ratings, but I would argue it was a stupid storyline with bad writing.

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R&R

I agree. Especially with the well-written part.

Phoebe.

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signs,

Um, yes. Especially since Phoebe has repeatedly said Monica could do far better than Chandler.