For those of you who haven't yet learned, they posted a synopsis of a guest star that is supposed to stir up trouble on Friends in May. The episode is titled TOW The Cooking Class, and it coincides with a spoiler someone else posted about the episode. Let's talk about what this means...
A brief summary of each episode:
818-TOW In Massapequa ("Zesty Guy"): Everyone attends a 35th wedding anniversary for the Gellers, and during the party the parents mention that Ross and Rachel are married, because the Gellers were too embarassed to mentioned that their son is having a baby out of wedlock again. So Ross and Rachel agree to pretend to be married throughout the party, and in the process they talk about some of the fake things they did. One of them in particular that caught Rachel's eye was Ross describing how he had proposed to her. Joey is apparently nowhere to be found in this episode, so who knows if and how he takes this.
819(?)-TOW The Cooking Class: While Joey is off helping Monica take a cooking class to improve her trade, Rachel begins to worry about not having anything for the baby with her due in less than a week. Ross comforts her to say that they will buy some stuff tomorrow, then all of the sudden Rachel proposes the question if they will ever get back together for some reason, and then both kind of shake it off. Guest star Rena Sofer then flirts with Ross at the baby store, which has Rachel jealous. At the end Rachel wishes that Ross wouldn't go out with the salesgirl, and he agrees not to. Then Ross suggests that maybe they should go out again, but Rachel doesn't wave it off like Ross did. The storyline ends there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I'm asking all fans here, whether they be R&R or J&R fans, is what the writers doing the last 9 episodes kind of pissing you off?
-If their intention all along was to get Ross and Rachel together again, they should have never broached the idea of Joey and Rachel to begin with.
-If their intention was to get Joey and Rachel together, they should have now not have Rachel being jealous after Ross, and wanting to get together again.
What they are doing now is getting the hopes of both sides up, and it's a deliberate tactic to get people to watch.
To suggest that Rachel would be jealous of Ross dating a salesgirl after a.)she was not jealous at all of Ross dating Mona, b.)she is not two episodes removed from one of her best friends saying that he loved her, c.)that she is even considering wanting to get back together with Ross after what Joey did for her, is absolutely beyond me.
If all Joey's love for Rachel was to serve as a way to get Rachel to move into Ross's apartment, there are going to be some royally pissed off fans out there. And yes, more fans than there would have been had Joey and Rachel gotten together a whole 5 years after Ross and Rachel went out.
I think that Joey being in love with Rachel was more about character development for Joey then anything else. I think he is going to come away with this realizing that he is tried of being a player and ready to find the right person for him. I think he fell in love with idea of having a woman living with him and having a child.
In 812, the start of all this, Joey said multiple times how much he enjoyed going on a date with Rachel. With her "dating move", he started to fall in love with her, not an idea of a future, HER. He didn't one day decide that being with a pregnant woman would be a cool idea.
Let me ask you this Stacey. Would you have bought that "character development" argument you just made if Rachel had not returned Ross's feelings, and Ross had to learn to get over his childhood crush?
I don't think it is something that he thought he would do or something he thought would be cool. And I do think that the character has sincere feelings for Rachel, but I think they developed because he got the chance to be a part of a grown up relationship (one that involves more then sex). Rachel still looks at Joey as her friend. I think Joey looks at Rachel as a total package of feelings and things he never had before.
I'm not sure what you are asking. Ross had feelings for Rachel for as long as he can remember. Those feelings did not stop him from living his own life but those feelings were always there. Rachel on the other hand, only saw him as her friends older brother. It took a lot of steps for her to change her mind about him. So if she never started to have feelings for him, I think Ross would have continued to have feelings for her but also continued to get on with his life.
But his primary reason for suggesting the move in the first place was that he didn't want to live with the person he was secretly in love with at the time. That could have worn down their friendship very quickly if something happened.
You have to remember that 811 to 817 was filmed before word was made public that the cast were returning for a final season intact. I would presume by 817 BKC had some idea that the sextet return. Some fans were speculating that the r/j plot might could been conceived by BKC as a possible direction in the event DS had opted out of Friends. One of the first things the writers/producers do in plotting out story lines is to set aside trap doors for *every single character* if possible because you never know when or how the real world is going to impinge upon you. An actor can quit and there's no way to control the characters like in a novel.
Therefore you can't bring X-million viewers along to a certain point, then say, "Well, all the stuff we were going to do we can't because X isn't here."
The writers could have tried r/j to gauge sentiment and shift the fan base in the eventuality DS does not return. A risk they would not take without reason as it involves rocking a core group of r/r fans. Both r/r have had different partners (guest role) before and it was never a problem as deep down you'll know there can never be any permanence unlike Joey who is a main character. It is also very difficult to have a respectable ending for all 3 characters involved.
All this is mere speculation as no one really knows what happens behind the scenes. r/j could have been an accidental pairing as BKC claims.
"You have to remember that 811 to 817 was filmed before word was made public that the cast were returning for a final season intact. I would presume by 817 BKC had some idea that the sextet return. Some fans were speculating that the r/j plot might could been conceived by BKC as a possible direction in the event DS had opted out of Friends. One of the first things the writers/producers do in plotting out story lines is to set aside trap doors for *every single character* if possible because you never know when or how the real world is going to impinge upon you. An actor can quit and there's no way to control the characters like in a novel."
If there is one thing the actors have been straight with us about is their "All for One, One for All" motto. I don't think anyone for a moment seriously considered continuing the show minus David Schwimmer. It just wouldn't have been the same show. There are reasons why I think the J&R pairing came up, which I'll explain later.
"Therefore you can't bring X-million viewers along to a certain point, then say, "Well, all the stuff we were going to do we can't because X isn't here.""
Ross would have been on the show as long as Joey and Rachel would have been. Character departure is not something this show had ever seriously dealt with.
But what they have done now is taken a large chunk of the neutral viewers, and maybe some outliers of the R&R fan base, and swung them into Joey and Rachel's corner. It's going to take some kind of writing on Ross's part for a lot of us to root for him again to get Rachel after they did this storyline.
"The writers could have tried r/j to gauge sentiment and shift the fan base in the eventuality DS does not return. A risk they would not take without reason as it involves rocking a core group of r/r fans. Both r/r have had different partners (guest role) before and it was never a problem as deep down you'll know there can never be any permanence unlike Joey who is a main character. It is also very difficult to have a respectable ending for all 3 characters involved."
I agree with you on Joey as the compelling character. David Crane has said as much, that Joey's involvement with Rachel carries much more weight because the outcome is truly in doubt in that scenario. But if their intention was to have Joey fade out to get back to R&R, I think the fan base has swung too much now for that to be a realistic possibility. Otherwise, it's just going to piss a lot of people off who have *recently* gotten their hopes up.
"All this is mere speculation as no one really knows what happens behind the scenes. r/j could have been an accidental pairing as BKC claims."
Ganesan
My theory is that BKC believed in Joey and Rachel as a close friend dynamic through the first part of season 8. (a la Joey and Chandler)
I'm pretty sure the "accident" in question occured in 807-TOW The Stain. What was intended as Joey wanting to have his roommate stay so he could help out with the pregnancy, turned into a somewhat lightly dramatic, emotional, and sentimental story about Joey possibly "losing" Rachel. It definitely got them to thinking the possibility seriously for the first time.
If their original intention was just to have Joey as a foil for R&R, they did way too good of a job making Joey look like a hero and a good guy in all this. Now people are rooting for him to get the girl. How many people, seriously, do you think are going to accept this storyline as "learning experience" for Joey? Is that why we became invested in the idea in the first place once it was broached, for it to end up being a life lesson for Joey?
All some of us are asking for is just a little return of feelings here. That might satisfy most of us enough to let the textbook ending happen, knowing that at some point Rachel's heart belonged to Joey.
Before season 9 was confirmed, there was talk that DS might want out of Friends. David Crane commented that Friends will continue if 5 out of 6 return. An executive producer will not make public, comments of this nature unless there was a strong possibility of an actor wanting out. Nothing was confirmed or taken for granted until the actors including DS had put their signatures on the contract.
I understand how you feel. Nothing can be ruled out. BKC are reowned for their sweeps/ratings tactics. Never for their consistency. If anything the characters have split-personalities and are prone to acute attacks of amnesia. Just look r/r's history.
Rachel confesses that she never stopped loving Ross at the beach house for season 3 ending and were hissing at each other in the opening eppy of season 4. What happed to Rachel's feelings?
Rachel dashes halfway around the globe to stop Ross' wedding at the end of season 4 and her feelings for Ross once again vaporized into thin air by the second eppy of season 5.
r/r are at it again in the hallway when M&C announce their engagement and that ends up being another letdown by the end of the eppy.
It looks like one of the plots in the next few eppies up to the season ender is going to revolve around r/r and their baby. Any possibility r/r will turn cold next season? Who knows. The writers can have Rachel run into Joey's arms if that's what they wanted.
No one expected season 8 to flourish, beat survivor and be renewed a further season. Can Friends maintain its success in season 9? We'll have to wait and see what happens next.
EMMY WINNER RENA SOFER GUEST-STARS AS WIDE-EYED SALESGIRL WHO ANGERS RACHEL BY FLIRTING WITH ROSS IN NBC'S 'FRIENDS'
BURBANK, Calif. -- March 13, 2002 -- Emmy Award winner Rena Sofer ("General Hospital," "Melrose Place") will guest-star as an adoring salesgirl at a baby-supply store who is openly enamored with Ross (David Schwimmer) - which angers a huffy Rachel (Jennifer Aniston) when the pair shops for their anticipated baby on NBC's hit "Friends" (Thursdays, 8-8:30 p.m. ET).
===>The episode - "The One with the Cooking Class" - will be broadcast in May.<===
During the last two seasons, Sofer guest-starred in several episodes of NBC' s "Ed" as an attorney and romantic interest for the series' title character. In 1995, she won her Daytime Emmy for Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama Series and a Soap Opera Digest Award for Outstanding Younger Actress for her work as Lois Cerullo Ashton on "General Hospital."
A few years later, Sofer moved to primetime series as a regular (1998-99) in "Melrose Place," "Oh Grow Up" and "The Opposite Sex." Her TV movies include "Nightmare Street," "Hostile Advances: The Kerry Ellison Story" and "The Stepsister." She also guest-starred in "Seinfeld," "Ellen" and "Caroline in the City." Among her feature films are "Keeping the Faith" and "Traffic."
The top-rated comedy series also recently announced that film star Alec Baldwin will guest-star in a separate episode on Thursday, March 28 (8-8:30 p.m. ET).
"Friends" was created by the writing team of Marta Kauffman & David Crane. Emmy and CableACE Award-winning producer Kevin S. Bright is executive producer with Kauffman and Crane. Scott Silveri, Shana Goldberg-Meehan, Andrew Reich and Ted Cohen also serve as executive producers. "Friends" is a Bright/Kauffman/Crane Production in association with Warner Bros. Television.
MEDIA CONTACT: Barbara Tranchito, NBC Entertainment Publicity, 818/840-3748
Based on the descriptions you provide, frankly, no. It all depends on how the eps are written and played. If Ross is being sweet and nice in both, they sound, well ... dreamy. :-) However, it's impossible to say now how the episodes will really look. As someone pointed out elsewhere, the description of 817 sounded terrible for Ross, but actually he was OK.
But it provided romantic tension, as people wondered whom Rachel end up with. This can be frustrating for fans of a particular couple, but it is a common device in romantic fiction, whether comedy or drama.
See above about romantic tension.
Errrr ... yes. "Getting people to watch" is the whole point of show. They're in the biz to make money, and, in TV, ratings = money.
Your comments (b) and (c) depend totally on whether one is a JnR fan. If Rachel truly has no romantic feelings for Joey -- as non-JnR's believe (or should I say hope) -- then Joey's confession is irrelevant to Rachel's feelings, if any, for Ross; and her platonic affection and appreciation for what Joey did could not reasonably be expected to prevent her from feeling passion or romance toward someone else.
As for (a), I agree it's rather rapid shift, but remember that a couple of months of real time will have gone by, during which Rachel will have been living with Ross and during which, presumably, feelings for the father of her child could grow.
I think -- no offense to you or anyone else here -- that the number of fans who care passionately about whom Rachel ends up with is dwarfed by the number who just enjoy the show and think it's funny, no matter what happens. There's no doubt that Joey is a very popular character. He should be. He's a sweet, lovable man and the kindest and nicest of the group. Plus, given the general ignorance of the American public about geography, probably lots of people identify with a man who believes that there are 56 states. OK ... I'm joking about the last one. But seriously, I'm sure there are many people who enjoy the idea of JnR because they really like Joey and really want to see him in a happy relationship. However, it seems very unlikely that viewers are going to desert the show in droves if their hopes for Joey (or Ross*) are disappointed. It happens all the time on TV that storylines go in unpopular directions, and yet viewers still watch. As long as the ratings stay strong, I suspect the powers that be will be happy to live with a subgroup of disappointed and angry fans, be they RnR or JnR.
*Your comment, "And yes, more fans than there would have been had Joey and Rachel gotten together a whole 5 years after Ross and Rachel went out," ignores the many, many hints and games with which the writers have teased RnR fans about the possibility of a reunion. The last poll I saw showed the two groups about evenly split, and that's at least in part because we have been hit over the head repeatedly with the idea of "Ross and Rachel." My point is that the passage of those 5 years has not diminished the possibility of the two ending up together because it hasn't been allowed to.
Looking at the spoilers for 821 and 822, I have a feeling that the hour long finale, 823/824, will end with Ross proposing to Rachel. And we'll be waiting for season nine to see how Rachel is gonna respond. Knowing BKC, that might just happen.
God! I hope not. Because it might turn out to be an anti-climax, with Rachel laughing instead and that'll be embarassing for Ross.
Besides, I would like to see a cliffhanger with some of the other characters for instance like m/c or joey or even phoebe. Maybe Monica staring unbelievingly at a positive preganancy test and the camera pans to close-up shot of Joey looking nervous. 8-D
I'm not talking about how the storyline is portrayed, though that is usually is the most important factor, but the storyline itself. This is a complete 180 degree turn. It's not gradual. They have the whole 9th season for an R&R reunion if they wanted to, but they are now hurrying them back together almost immediately after they focused 6 episodes on Joey's feelings for Rachel. Even if it comes off as a funny storyline, it's a storyline that makes absolutely no sense in the real world. None. This is just being done out of conveinence/fear to the R&R fans that they would bail if they didn't get their way. Unfortunately, we live in a country that generally is very resistant to change, and although a lot of people warmed to the idea of J&R, it probably wasn't overwhelming enough to encourage the producers to change.
But if these producers maintain a liberal philosophy, I would have always thought pushing more realistic domestic issues like stepfathers and loving pregnant women would be something they would try if they thought there was an audience for it. But instead what they are going to what can best be described as the "Mickey Mouse" conclusion, neat and tidy with hardly any realism.
But this didn't have to be done if Joey and Rachel were not going to get together, because there won't be nearly as many people happy for Ross and Rachel again, ESPECIALLY with the past few episodes still fresh on their minds.
The only way now that anything could come of Joey and Rachel, after reading 821 and 822, is if Joey gets so upset that he can't be around Rachel, and that Rachel somehow starts feeling for him after this. Because right now she seems to have no qualms about flirting and propositioning for sex from Ross, which again is just incredulous coming this soon.
Yeah, but now once a decision is made, it's bye-bye large chunk o' audience. They had high enough ratings to where they could flirt with Ross and Rachel, get them back together, and not had any significant falloff. I guarantee that won't be the case now.
So you think it's perfectly harmless and normal for Rachel to love Ross again right after Joey told Rachel he loved her?
If Rachel
But why? Why seek romance from Ross and not Joey? Just because she's done it before with Ross? Joey has been there for her more than Ross has during the pregnancy, and that support seems to go unnoticed by Rachel and R&R fans alike.
See below for a reminder of why they are living together in the first place...
Maybe we give more credit to the writers than they really deserve. They seem to go the well with Ross and Rachel hints when they begin to run out of creative ideas. The pairing conveinently faded back once Chandler and Monica's storyline began to take center stage, and once that started to fade in the sixth season, they started pulling R&R storylines out of the bag just for the key points in the season.
Ok, let's go with a suggestion that you are likely hoping for: Ross and Rachel get married or plan to be married by the end of the 8th season or start of the 9th season. What possible interesting storylines do they have left to tell?
-The Ross and Rachel relationship has been throughly explored. The only storylines they could have left is as parents, and that prospect doesn't sound incredibly exciting. There is hardly any memorable Ben episodes.
-If Ross and Rachel pair off, it would leave Joey and Phoebe. If the writers even attempt this pairing, it's going to be painful. Painful for it being so unimaginative, painful that Joey and Phoebe don't have much in common except that they are both dumb(which seems to be enough of a reason for a lot of fans sadly), and painful that the pairing isn't nearly exciting of a prospect with hardly any conflict involved. 711 was as about as deep as that friendship could go, and it didn't go terribly far.
-What other storylines are there left to tell? Get someone else pregnant? Try breaking Ross and Rachel up yet again somehow, only to reunite one last time? Get Joey into a dumb situation while he's acting? Start breaking up Chandler and Monica? There's almost no situations left that either haven't been fully explored, or situations that would really leave a lot of comedy.
Would a Joey and Rachel relationship carried the 9th season by itself? Probably not. But that situation right there with all that it entailed would have given them ample material to work with for a 9th season.
People won't tune off their sets the rest of this season, but if it looks like Ross and Rachel are getting together by the end of the season, there are really no stories left to tell, and therefore many people will just instead watch something else than see million dollar actors do really nothing Earth-shattering for half an hour.
Well, I said it seemed rather sudden. However, note that your statement is correct when you say "they focused 6 episodes on JOEY's feelings for RACHEL" [emphasis mine]. They did not focus on Rachel's feeling for Joey because it now seems that she hasn't any, except friendship. Of course, this could still change. Despite your pessimistic predictions (from your POV, that is -- it would be an optimistic view coming from me), I'm not planning to spend the weekend shopping for Ross and Rachel's wedding, even though there is a Bloomingdale's right up the road, and I'm sure Rachel has been registered there since she was about 6 months old. :-)
Oh, let's not start listing "Friends" storylines that make absolutely no sense in the real world. We'll be here all night.
As I said before, I think you're overestimating the number of people who would bail out if the "Who Gets Rachel?" storyline doesn't go their preferred way. Saying that the producers cooled the JnR storyline because Americans are resistant to change is just a wee bit over the top in my opinion.
There is, on Lifetime TV. :-) Seriously, I think you might be placing a little too much emphasis on the social-science aspect of this. Given everything else the Friends have done up to now, even a relatively conservative fellow like me wouldn't boycott the show because Rachel didn't marry the man who got her pregnant. I can't imagine that BKC would entertain many worries on this topic. That said, and not wishing to add fuel to the fire, I do think most people would find a certain satisfaction in the idea of the mother and father of a baby being married and living together. Even in the 21st century, this is still seen as the ideal situation for childrearing by most people.
Well ... but ... we don't know what the conclusion will be. We have another season for things to change and develop, and even for the remainder of this year, the spoilers may read one way and look quite another when we see the product.
See below about the "this soon" business. My reading of the spoilers is that Rachel wants sex primarily to induce labor. Very romantic, no? :-) There is a suggestion of growing closeness between RnR, but who knows where that will lead? I'm betting that WE won't until some time next fall.
I think you're exaggerating the potential audience loss, but time will tell.
Sure. I mean, why not? IF Rachel loves Ross -- and that's a very big IF right now -- why would Joey's being in love with her make any difference in her feelings? The fact that somebody falls in love with you doesn't mean you have to love them back and can't love someone else. Remember that there has been no suggestion that Rachel ever loved Joey except platonically, so it's not like she would be going from loving one man to loving another in a few episodes (not that I'd put it past her to do so ... this is sitcom-land, after all).
I'm confused here whether you mean this in a dramatic sense -- i.e. what would be most interesting to watch -- or in an emotional/logical sense -- i.e. what would be the most realistic thing to happen in a real-world sense. It sounds like you mean the latter, and, if that's the case, then I have to say that the heart knows no logic. You love whom you love, and no amount of good deeds, sacrifice, or help can make someone fall in love with someone else ... as many an unrequited lover can testify. If Rachel does indeed seek romance -- actual love, not just labor-inducing sex -- from Ross rather than Joey, presumably it will be because she loves him and not Joey. Will it be interesting to watch? That depends entirely on how it's written, since I'm confident of JA's and DS's abilities to act the scenes well.
Agreed, although that doesn't necessarily mean it won't work. They also use ancient, tired sitcom devices like having someone hide in someone else's apartment and getting caught, as we saw last week. It sounded trite, cliched, and generally dreadful on paper, but in fact it worked out rather nicely, much to my surprise.
Actually, that's not what I'm hoping for. It's too soon, for exactly the reason you suggest. I'm hoping that Ross and Rachel draw closer together during the remainder of this season and first part of the 9th -- no doubt with a few misadventures along the way -- and spend the second half of the 9th and last season happily together, married or planning to be so -- no doubt experiencing a few more misadventures along the way.
You're obviously not a parent. :-) Neither am I, but countless sitcoms have been very successfully built around parents and children.
Because the writers have chosen not to explore that avenue, perhaps to keep the characters seemingly "young" and "hip." However, now that the series is drawing to a close (and the actors are all well into their 30's), they may be ready to allow a little maturity to creep in. Besides, Carol is not a Friend, which partially limits the number of potential Ben situations. Also, babies are more like props than real characters (on TV that is), since they obviously have no lines or action, whereas older children (like Ben in the last several years) must be given lines and made an active part of the action. IOW, it's easier to write a funny episode AROUND a baby than it is to write one INCLUDING a child-character.
Well, maybe they could write some conflict for them, although I don't necessary think that ALL the characters have to be paired off. By the way, do you really think Phoebe is dumb? I think she's ditzy and illogical, but quite clever in her own way. In fact, I'd say she's bright -- almost as bright as Ross, although in a totally different way. She and Ross are certainly the only two characters who show much interest in the world outside their own lives.
The show is drawing to a close. Although I'm sure the producers will want to generate as much audience interest and consequently high ratings as possible, at this point they may be less interested in breaking new ground than in bringing all the characters' on-screen lives to an end in the most satisfying way.