how long

how long will the amoral will and grace survive without the friends lead in.

It's already lasted too damn long..... ~~~ Kathy

I don't mean to start a huge flame war here but I have to be honest and say I think Will and Grace is much better than Friends. (This post is quite long - I wonder how many people will read it through to the end.)

Please don't misunderstand me - I really do like Friends. But I often tire of the American schmalziness and cutesy togetherness that is paraded on Friends occasionally. Maybe because I'm British, I sometimes need a dose of the grotesque, of characters I love to hate, characters whose faults are so blatant but for whom one has a soft spot in spite of oneself.

This typically American habit of not being able to watch a character who isn't "nice" is worrying. Sure, you'd hate them if you met them in real life - BUT they're CHARACTERS on a SHOW. Playing nice all the time is tedious for both actor and audience and is not true to life.

I love that some Friends characters have become a little more ridiculous over the years. Ross is a case in point; "TOW Ross is Fine" and his story in "TOW Estelle Dies" were wonderful, almost slapstick, developments in which character foibles are brought to the fore and the audience's prior knowledge of the characters' history and personality traits can be converted into humour. This happens on Will and Grace every week.

The characters of Will and Grace are *monstrous*. Their traits, their insecurities, their awful fears and hates, all are present in every line. They're petty, they bicker, they have prejudices... they're human, magnified by 1,000,000. That is to say, they follow the grand theatrical tradition of the Grotesque.

Will and Grace is NOT AMORAL. I really do take issue with that. Flame away, I don't care. What gives you the right to call a show amoral? Why does a television show have a duty to depict moral norms? Is Friends amoral or even immoral for depicting sexual relations before marriage, for making jokes about people with learning difficulties, for showing homelessness as something to laugh at? We all have differing moral standards. True, most of us would not consider killing someone, but why should murder not be turned into a joke? Truth is, it has been, thousands of times - most recently on Frasier in "Murder Most Maris". Good humour arises from observation - deciding what one should or should not exploit for comedy is not true observation.

Thus no one has a special pass on Will and Grace. Everyone is a target. Sure, homosexuality is a big source of comedy. Those who say it is depicted in a one-sided manner, only depicting it negatively, are mostly correct - because where would the comedy be in pointing out what's right with the world? I'm gay, and I love that all of the idiosyncrasies of the gay world are poked fun at. It's hilarious. The fault people make is believing that this is what that world is really like - but it isn't the show's responsibility to make them feel otherwise. It's *their* duty not to rely on TV shows to give them a sense of the outside world.

So yes, cue jokes about fags and Jews and rehab-entering celebrities and rich bitches and black people - why shouldn't they have comedy written about them? What Will and Grace is really laughing at is those people who sadly do discriminate against certain social groups, at the same time as laughing at those who are guilty of *positive* descrimination - that is, deciding that certain groups should be exempt from comedy in the spirit of political correctness. Political correctness is a good intention that has turned into a ridiculous, bloated monster. I am a free-loving, fun-having, liberal-minded student at Oxford university, but I am still saying that giving certain groups advantages over others because they are discriminated against has got out of hand.

If you're still with me at this point, I applaud your ability to remain attentive. Thank you. There are many more things I can say to compare Friends and Will and Grace, and certain confessions (such as the severe lack of originality in Will and Grace lately) I could make. But I will await a couple of replies before I launch my counter-argument.

"Kathy" wrote in message news:...

I stopped watching Will And Grace because every other episode seems to have a guest star, they seem to rely on it and it's always ridiculous. They lost their creativity, the writing has really gone downhill.

D.

I used to watch Will and Grace. The show however has gone dramatically in quality. It has become just banal and stupid. It is just a shadow of its former self. The same think happened to Friends but not as quickly or to as great of a degree. The first couple seasons of Friends were definitely their best. The characters are no longer as complex or human as they used to be. The characters on Will and Grace have become ridiculous cartoon characters.

I thought I'd post my own IMDb review of Will and Grace to show further why I like it so much more than Friends:

Let it be said first of all that I LOVE Will and Grace. To appreciate my comments fully, I feel it's necessary that you know a bit about me. I'm a gay 20 year old student at Oxford University, England, and as well as Will and Grace, I adore Frasier, Buffy and Angel.

I wasn't wild about the show at first. Throughout the first season six years ago, I sometimes felt it was too much about homosexuality and that some of the jokes fell flat. Sure, it was funny, but no funnier than Friends, which was my favourite sitcom at the time. I now realize that this is because it was difficult watching such depictions of gay people when I was coming to terms with my own sexuality.

But Will and Grace is SO gay, and I accept that now. It epitomizes homosexuality not only in its paradox of judgmental stereotyping (of EVERYONE) and liberal-minded attitudes, but also in its occasional warmth, poignancy and contrasting harshness.

It isn't the perfect sitcom. Many episodes (6x22 'Speechless' is appropriate to mention here) fall flat and lack the sparkle one expects from a sitcom. But when an episode contains a perfect balance of humour, depth, character development and (although not necessary) celebrity guest stars, it is perfect (case in point: 4x16 'A Chorus Lie').

What makes Will and Grace consistently better than Friends is its refusal to employ schmaltz to make an audience (particularly an American one, raised on a diet of sentimentality) feel more comfortable. Obviously, anyone would *detest* Karen, and possibly Jack, in real life. In this way, the show conforms quite neatly to the traditional British custom of creating characters that one loves to hate: whiny, petty, prejudiced, insecure creatures who are all the more endearing because they are true to life (see: 'One Foot in the Grave', or indeed most British sitcoms).

At the same time, paradoxically, the characters are so completely monstrous - Karen being the clear example - that they seem unrealistic. In fact, although they are ostensibly awful, they are merely gross exaggerations of every human being, replete with the same fears, prejudices and pettiness of which we all are guilty and which are brought to the fore in comedic form. In this way, the show continues the great theatrical tradition of the grotesque: characters who seem unbelievable but are simply magnifications of human flaws.

Of course, this is not to say that Will and Grace does not include the occasional sentimental or poignant scene. For the sitcom to work, there must be moments, however fleeting, of self-doubt or self-realization: thus Jack (mild spoilers ahead) *must* realize that he is a terrible actor and Will *has* to realize that he is causing his own loneliness (end of spoilers). These rare occasions of insecurity are all the more moving, just as the petty moments are funny, because they are that much more realistic.

The show - like any artistic creation, whether filmic, literary or aesthetic - has its faults. A feeling that the series' arcs were stagnant and stationary (the inevitable fate of all sitcoms) and that the humour relied too much upon the same themes resulted in an over-reliance on celebrity guest stars and hackneyed, traditional storylines (spoilers: babies and marriage). This paradoxically resulted in yet more lack of character development, as they found themselves trapped in dead-end storylines that had run out of potential. Recently, with the inclusion of recurring guest stars such as John Cleese, whose portrayal of Lyle Finster has sparked a sitcom brilliance unseen since Basil Fawlty, the show has recovered renewed vitality that should theoretically see, if NBC has nothing to do with it, a prolonged run of at least two more seasons.

Kudos must certainly go to the actors. Eric McCormack, a Canadian actor with all the range that classical training provides, is a delight as long-suffering Will, whose straight-acting personality is coupled with an occasional queer-sensibility that renders the character all the more charming. Grace, the faux-businesswoman whose lazy and disgusting habits have been accentuated in recent seasons, is played to perfection by Debra Messing, a sublime blend of Old Hollywood glamour, innate comic timing and real-world vulnerability. Sean Hayes and Megan Mullally, whose comical symbiosis forces me to mention them as though one entity, are the epitome of overacted (but not, if you understand, overoveracted) and larger-than-life humour. As is usually the case, it is these supporting actors who have taken centre-stage, rendering every moment of shared screen-time a delicious, unrivalled pleasure.

In short, Will and Grace is the quintessential situation comedy because it acts as a sort of funhouse mirror, almost poetic in its way, depicting that which is real, but within a presentational format that goes beyond realistic, and still contains inherent flaws in both plot and character. It is this imperfection, so prevalent in real life, which renders it that much more enjoyable.

"Madmanmoxie" wrote in message news:[email]...

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Madmanmoxie wrote:

While I agree with some of your post, the phrase "typically American habit of not being able to watch a character who isn't "nice" is worrying." is quite funny. Maybe (and I say maybe because I don't know) there is a higher percentage of Americans who prefer some sentimentality in their comedies than that of British comedy fans, but the huge ratings for Seinfeld, and the good ratings for Will and Grace suggest your blanket statement isn't very applicable. Seinfeld, a comedy about some of the most selfish, shallow people I could ever imagine was a huge hit in the 90s, #1 comedy for several years. I found it hilarious for the first several years, but as they became ever more vicious and one dimensional, it lost my interest. There's nothing wrong with characters in comedies who aren't "nice". But if the whole cast is that way all the time and the show is one note, it becomes very boring to me very fast.

Of course, I didn't intend the phrase you cite to represent the whole of the American sitcom-watching population. It's as you say: it strikes me that it is more typical of an American audience than a British one. When you compare Fawlty Towers or Blackadder to Friends or most other American sitcoms, I think the difference is apparent. Natch, all sitcoms rely on the observation of people's foibles and faults - to me, it just seemed as though they were more prevalent in, and more appreciated by, British culture and society.

And I must admit, I've never caught Seinfeld. It was given terrible time slots in this country and on this occasion intention didn't translate into action - it was on too damn late. But I've always wanted to watch it, and based on your analysis, I want to watch it more.

gdp wrote in message news:...

in my opinion you didn't miss much. seinfeld was televisions version of the emporers new clothes. it was declared to the the "enlighten" show and if you didn't watch it you were not cool. no one was wanting to be out of the loop or considered non enlighten. the show was even more stupid than gilligans island.

On 30 Apr 2004 02:35:40 -0700, [email] (Madmanmoxie) wrote:

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This is one of the things I don't like about Friends. Ross has these way overblown, cartoonish, hollering reactions to situations and it's tiring to me.

I think both shows are rundown but maybe when: Debra Messing returns to Will and Grace; Harry Connick, Jr. remaining absent; and better writing, the show can perk up. Otherwise Will and Grace should pack it up too.

Not me. :)

That's OK, Paul. I take no offence. I used to read your reviews over on alt.tv.frasier but now I've stopped, as they comprise of one or two lines of your views and six paragraphs of plot summary. I don't need to be told what happened in something I saw yesterday!

You are Donnie AICMFP. :)