Tonight's episode... (617 TOW THE UNAGI or TOW THE MIXED TAPE)

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I haven't had the time for the internet in nearly a week and a half yet after sparing what was supposed to be a wonderful thirty minutes in which to watch my favorite show... I was so so shocked by tonight's antics that I just had to say...

THAT WAS THE WORST EPISODE OF FRIENDS I HAVE EVER SEEN!!! It overshadowed the ridiculous storyline in 613 in which Monica acted like... well... I still don't know what that was... It defeated the blah-ness of 611 which was an episode only good for kicking that awful Janine off of the show...

Ugghhh... just the most ridiculous... ahhhh!!!

I just want to "kick the ass" of the moron who came up with the whole Unagi storyline. And believe me... I could!!! There's a tie in between the worst lines of tonight... hmm... OK, it was Ross's repetitive little "Ah, unagi" that really struck my nerve. But it was Rachel's "Ah, salmon skin roll!" that made me want to vomit... in more ways than one. (I suppose I'm biased in the matter because I dread fish. :-) ) Such a waste of Jennifer and David's fine talent. My first laugh tonight... I believe there were maybe 3 or 4... came with Lisa's little shake. The only thing that made Phoebe's appearance in the episode significant. Another waste.

Oh, and don't EVEN get me started with Chandler and Monica. Need I bring up the vomit again? So boring and sappy I felt the urge to run into the medicine cabinet and fetch some Pepto Bismol. Especially during what seemed like an agonizing wait for that dance to finish. When Courteney said "Dance with me" I shivered with dread. (This is completely off topic but... I love her new hair. OK... back to my whining.) Oddly enough one laugh came out of that storyline that did it's best but didn't make the episode significant. Janice's song. Didn't see that one coming. Maybe because I was on the verge of passing out. Oh, the highlight! OK writers... you can't write Chandler and Monica as well anymore- FINE! Just make sure that you break them up. You have the opportunity... you created it yourselves. As much as I love that couple, and believe me... I do so much, the crash and burn of the missing Chandler humor... the rise and fall of Monica's character transforming into so many variations- it's just not worth it anymore. I'd say the same for Ross and Rachel if something similar had happened to their characters when they were together in the past and whenever they're together in the future. A TV couple is a very difficult thing to manage. The writers just can't handle it anymore. I beg of them to give Chandler & Monica "a break".

OK... the only good storyline... Joey's. The "How're you doing" had me laughing straight through the following commercial break. True, the storyline wasn't all that but the classic Joey humor saved it somewhat.

OK, now I need to rush off because I'm very pressed for time and I just sucked out 15 minutes. I'll be sure to read everyone's reviews, (I saw many below, :-) ) tomorrow. Ah, the weekend. I sure could use one.

Excellent review :) Very funny! I laughed out loud at your message more than I did at Friends!

• Sandra

AlyssaPhoebs wrote:

In article , "AlyssaPhoebs" wrote:

Hello. :)

Tennant

i have been SO dissapointed with season 6! I'm such a big fan of friends as well as the actors, but PLEASE!!!!!!! This season has only had(in my opinion) like 5 good episodes. The writing is really going downhill. They can do SO much better!!!!.... MY DOG could do better!

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S P A C E

I hate to seem too critical of the show, especially after last week's brilliant fantasy episode. But it seems to me the ka-ra-TAY business was already used on "Seinfeld." Ho ho. Tee hee. I liked the scenes with Monica and Chandler listening to the tape and for some reason thought the show was over, thinking what a nice way to end the episode. Then of course Janice's voice came on, and I thought it was a well-executed laugh. The stuff with Joey, though, I thought was just plain stupid. And he's an even worse waiter than Rachel was (as, of course a waitress.) He remains the most problematic character for me in terms of his stunted character development. Even though Ross went off in a strange way, Joey seems to have become just a one dimensional horny dolt.

But as lame as some of his plotlines are, Matt can pull it off.

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

AlyssaPhoebs wrote:

So I guess you didn't like it? :)

I'm beginning to think that the writers are as clueless about what to do with Chandler and Monica as they are with Ross and Rachel.

Here's some food for thought:

I think one of the problems that the writers have with Chandler and Monica is that in a way, they *can't* break them up. It's been mentioned on numerous occassions that they wanted the C&M relationship to be as different from the R&R relationship as possible. Now if C&M were ever to break up, that really would add too much of an "R&R" quality to the relationship and that is something they want to avoid. As a result, they are being forced to struggle to come up with interesting stuff for them to do and we end up getting storylines like the one we had tonight and other ones that involve vapor rub. How much longer are they going to try and keep this up?

However at the same time if the writers eventually did break them up in order to help liven up the story, I don't think it would be that effective because they would be trying to create tension that was never meant to be there to begin with and this was not what this relationship was ever about in the first place.

They did a very smart thing in putting Chandler and Monica together the *way* they did. That whole storyline really did alot for the show. However I think one of their mistakes was not having or thinking about a plan for what they would do when the "hype" invevitably ended.

Chris

I read this thread with a little shock and surprise. I thought this was the best Chandler and Monica storyline we've had this season and at one point I was rolling and clapping my hands. I had forgotten the Janice angle and it caught me delightfully off guard. I was just thinking how good this was... the ungai thing was so funny I was able to forgive the fact that it was yet another installment of TOW Ross is an Asshole. At least this time I could believe the behavior; Ross has always been intellectually arrogant and the same traits that caused the Evolution Fight were in evidence here. The only thing *I* didn't like was him telling the instructor he wanted to attack a woman. That's a conversation too stupid for Joey, and Ross has a Phd.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Claire Abraham doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

<chomp>

Claire, I think the most significant part of Alyssa's argument was that it was coming from a fan of *both* couples. Maybe C&M's storyline would be good for us because we don't expect a great deal from them these days, but maybe it genuinely didn't cater for a C&M fan. The sort of stuff Alyssa was saying about it is, let's face it, more the sort of thing *I* would say. To see it coming from a C&M *fan*, I think, speaks volumes about how bad they've actually allowed this storyline to get.

I am not enthused about this episode one iota. With what sounds to be such a lame C&M storyline, the least they could have done was keep in the stupid sink plot, however little it was in the first place. It seems obvious to me, just going on the reviews, that this episode did not really cater for C&M *or* R&R fans, when it was originally supposed to be catering for both.

In article , Tina Nellis wrote:

As a C&M fan, I'd take it a step further. As C&M travel down the same road as R&R, it is becoming increasingly difficult to watch, just like R&R before them. Simply put, they're not funny (the Janice part was funny). Stable couples are usually not; they're quite dull. R&R are funny when they break up or fight afterwards. C&M are funny when their neuroses keep them constantly on the edge. So I say, BREAK 'EM UP!

NO WICKEDLY BAD IDEA! It woudl ruin the show completly as we've discussed before breaking them up would have a ripple event on the entire show. Stable couples arent ALWAYS boring. Take Mad about you for example that was all it was about and look how long it lasted and it wasnt boring in the least bit. There is more they can do with the characters then just break them up. A pregnancy scare would be interesting and seeing other issues of their relationship coming up. If they were to break them up. how could the friends still be friends. As we saw when chandler broke up with *I dont remember her name* and he was upset for days and they were just going together for a few days and the same thing with Monica. They've been together way too long this is not a soap opera. And all the friends would be devistaed adn split. Plus they dont want to do the same thing they did with R&R with C&M that would be boring and perdictable. ~Act

In article , Activia wrote:

discussed before

about and

Well, I would have said that example confirms my principle...

There is more they

would be

they were

They managed to pull it off every time R&R broke up.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Christopher Rickey doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

This brings up an interesting point: are C&M fans afraid that if they break up, they don't have a strong enough friendship to withstand a breakup like R&R did/do? After all, the argument all C&M fans seem to use when someone suggests they should break up is 'They couldn't be friends afterwards' - why ever not? If Ross and Rachel, patent owners of The Messiest Breakup Ever (tm) can manage it, then why would the same not be true of C&M?

In article , Tina Nellis wrote:

I understood the poster to whom I was responding to mean all the group wouldn't remain friends, a possibility hinted at the first time R&R broke up (well, it depends on your definition of when they were together; I mean the Chloe "we were on a break!" breakup).

Tina Nellis wrote:

C&M have been together longer and have made more of a commitment to each other..so its different ~Act

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Activia doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

No it's not - they were both committed relationships, and I'd say that the levels of committment are about the same. Whether they're living together is not an indicator of how committed the relationship is emotionally, same as the length is also not a factor because I've known people who have been in relationships for the same length of time as C&M have and not been as committed, same as I've known people who've been in relationships for less time than R&R were and were more committed than C&M are emotionally. Which again brings up my question: if R&R can remain friends after two major mares of breakups, what makes you think C&M can't after one?

Ok I"ve had 7 hours to think about this -while I was at work *bore a minute
there* and I've come up with a few things.
    I dont think that R&R were commited emotionally as much as C&M because what
comes with commitment is trust, which we saw neither one had for the other.
For example the whole reason why they broke up in the first place, or what fed
the fire was because Ross didnt trust Rachel with Mark.  Also, the relationship
between the 2 seems more of wanted what they cant have. In the first season we
have Ross wanting Rachel in the 2nd season for half of it anyway we have Rachel
wanting Ross then for a slight period of time they are together.  Then they
break up because of mistrust.  They also had no thoughts of settling down
together that they mentioned except for Ross always dreaming of WANTING to
spend the rest of his life with her.  In the past few seasons its their jealous
because they cant have what they want. Or in other words they want what they
cant have.  Whenever they are together they seem to break up right away.  Now I
do agree with the breakup being a huge reason why you think that they were
emotionally commited.  But, if you think about it it was a huge deal because it
affected all the friends.  Their relationship was always insecure and a lot of
that insecurity came out when they were breaking up, which makes it very
emotional.
    With Monica and Chandler we see signs of commitment all over the place.  On
several occasions they have mentioned "nonchantly" having kids together TOW the
joke and I cant remember the names of the other ones, but I have seen it more
then twice.  Also they almost got married in Vegas and realized they werent
ready for that kind of commitment YET. But they make a commitment to move in
together which is a big commitment its one step behind marriage. Emotionally we
have seen them growing together.  They both have changed in ways to better
"blend" with the other.  The term "Mondler" has been used. This is also why I
think C&M breaking up would greatly affect the show and the friendship between
all 6 of them. I'm not saying them getting into an argument for more then one
episode is a bad idea because once they make up their relationship would be
stronger if they werent to "Rash" in their argument.
    OK so you've heard what I thought and all the R&R fans are probubley about
to rip my head off right about....NOW. I beg you to just think of it from my
perspective for a minute....keep thinking....keep thinking..ok so you werent
but anyway thats what I think.
~Act
*dont kill me please* lol

I admit. Ross did get too jealous about Mark, but you can't say Chandler would not have the same reaction because we haven't seen anything quite similar. He did get angry over Richard, but Phoebe made sure to quickly clear that up. I think that if Ross and Rachel had made it through their anniversary night, everything would have been fine, but there were just a lot of misunderstandings, which actually might indicate just how emotionally committed they were to each other since they were both devastated. Ross was just angry because he saw that Mark was so interested in Rachel, and that turned out to be true so it wasn't just him imagining things. As for Rachel, aside from the last scene in TOW All the Jealousy, when did she demonstrate jealousy?? And it wasn't even that much of jealousy because she did let him go, had she not trusted him, she would not have allowed for him to go with a striper!

Rachel: Honey, that's very sweet, it just seems to me though, that if two people love each other and trust each other, like we do, there's no reason to be jealous.

Also, the

I have to argue with you here because when Rachel first decided to give it a try with Ross, she didn't know about Julie and completely believed she *could* have him. And aside from Paolo, there was never a time in season one when Ross could not have said something to Rachel. To me it was more of them being afraid to take their relationship to that level, which also goes back to the argument of how good friends they really were before they got together. They also had no thoughts of settling down

TOW Old Yeller Dies- Ross: You're gonna have to understand that you're with a guy who's not gonna stop planning his future with you because he knows that we're gonna end up together.

It's not just dreaming, he told her, and this was only in their sixth week together!

The first time they were officially together, they broke up after a year. That's not considered right away. The second time was indeed right away. There has been no third time, so we can't make that assumption. Once is not enough to justify "always."

Now

First of all, the breakup itself wasn't over anyone's insecurity, it was about Chloe and Ross. The "break" was over jealousy, but Rachel called Ross that same night because she wanted to make up, it wasn't big enough reason to break up.

Second of all, the break up was not a huge deal because it affected everyone else, it was a huge deal because of the way it affected *them*. They were devastated precisely because of the level of emotional commitment at which they were. Also, their relationship was not *always* insecure, there was just jealousy at the end of it, everything was fine before Mark.

Monica wants to have kids with everybody! That's her dream...remember Richard??

Besides, there was commitment with R&R as well... Rachel: What you and I have is so much better. We have tenderness, we have intimacy, we connect. You know, I swear, this is the best I have ever had.

Also they almost got married in Vegas and realized they werent

I know people who have lived together and broken up, never getting back together again. Living together is not a step behind marriage.

Emotionally

Ross and Rachel were lobsters! =) Even Phoebe saw it. Now, as for the "to better blend with each other," have you read some of the things that have been posted here about how their "blending" is hurting the show? I don't think it's necessarily a good sign that two people become each other when in a relationship. The fact that Ross and Rachel didn't become Rass or Rochel doesn't mean they weren't committed, it just means that they had strong personalities, which I thought both Monica and Chandler had before this season.

The fact that their personalities didn't turn into each others doesn't mean that they were not emotionally committed though. Even after their breakup, Rachel couldn't make herself get back at Ross through Mark. They were both really hurt, and it wasn't about having what they couldn't, it was about missing what they loved, each other.

This is also why I

I think Monica and Chandler *getting* together changed the friendship between the six of them. We no longer see Chandler and Joey, and Phoebe has become more a part of Rachel's life (well, to some degree, because we can't determine how much they hung out outside of what we saw on the show). As it's been said several times here, if Ross and Rachel made it through break-up, so can Monica and Chandler.

No, Act, no head ripping...I studied my amendments and know that there shall be no cruel and unusual punishment! Just trying to give support to why Ross and Rachel were at the same level, if not greater. After all, if there wasn't an emotional commitment that strong, why would both of them still have feelings for each other three years later?? They would have gotten over each other already. And why can't either of them find someone (or why does Rachel barely even try)? Their relationship was there, which brings me to the conclusion yet one more time: Monica and Chandler can handle a breakup.

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Whatever crazy started it up with the R&R fans.... Your suicidal aren't you?

LOL. I said no head ripping!

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Adriana loves Matt wrote:

Dont forget that Monica was actually In Love with Richard and Rachel was not in love with Mark. Rachel had just met Mark. This makes a huge difference.

I dont agree. Ross has always had a major "crush" on Rachel. Which if you have ever had a crush on a person you will understand. Of course you always dream of having kids with them and being married and living happily ever after. Also you tend to put them on a petistol. Also you think they are better then you and that you are lucky to be with them and try your best to keep them with you. This is almost exactly the way Ross is with Rachel! That is exactly why he got so jealous or Mark and I think that he would have become jealous of any guy that came close to her, and he would have to outwardly speak his feelings with Rachel or feel extremely secure in the relationship to not feel this jealousy. Which is why I think that Ross was insecure in the relationship.

He should have been able to TRUST Rachel if he really believed that Rachel loved him and would want to be with him forever then she wouldnt want to be with someone else.

I dont think I mentioned Rachel not trusting Ross. Its more that Rachel felt betrayed.

I realize this BUT, she didnt even THINK of being with Ross before she found out that he liked her. Which you could say that maybe she just didnt think of them being that way only being friends. But at that time I dont remember her saying any reasons why she would want to be with him, or that she really had decided that she wanted to be with him completly, more that she would give it a try. Then after seeing him with Julie she continued to want him because she couldnt have him.

Ross had been thinking of this since the 9th grade!!!! I dont think of it as a step

in their relationship more of Ross's dream of them being together.

Actually you missed when Ross found out and then they were together and broke up shortly after Ross making a list of reasons why he should be with Rachel or Julie. So not ONCE but TWICE.

It goes deeper then that. I think that if it didnt happen then it would have happened in another way at another time because Ross has been always insecure about the relationship. Maybe if he talks to Rachel about this and TRULY sees taht she wants to be with him and love him forever..then they can get over this hurdle.

Ok you took what I said wrong. I worded it incorrectly. Part of why it was a big deal was because it affected them all. When wasnt it insecure...everything wasnt fine before Mark. Like I said if it wasnt Mark it would be someone else.. If it was fine before Mark then the thing with Mark would have never happened.

No she doesnt want to have kids with everybody! She just wants to have kids sometime in her life.

How does it prove that its not a step towards marriage? People move in together to see if they can stand seeing each other everyday its meerly a simulation of marriage without it being in graved in stone forever. So obviously people who move in together and then break up realize that they arent ready for marriage but if they never moved in together they wouldnt have realized it and may have married and then later divorced.

Have you heard of compromise? I think that Monica and Chandler compromise and work together to become more secure as a couple.

Monica and Chandlers personalities didnt turn into each other. They meerly changed slightly to compliment the other. Of course they were hurt look at the conditions of their breakup some issues I feel were never truley resolved.

We do see Chandler and Joey together. TOW Joey looses his insurance is just one example. Well Phoebe and Rachel becoming closer is party because they have moved in together. Just because they are closer doesnt mean Rachel and Monica are farther.

I was one of the first that I have seen to go against the R&R fans, so I was scared

to death but glad I did because I brought up soem good arguments and I have fun analyzing the show. ~Act

Activia wrote:

No not really. Whether or not Monica/Rachel was/wasn't in love with Richard/Mark is beside the point. It doesn't make Chandler's jealousy any less uncalled for than Ross's *just* because Monica *was* in love with Richard.

I have had "crushes" on people. Many as a matter of fact. Through *my* experience, what Ross felt for Rachel was a hell of alot more than just a "crush". Every relationship a person has usually starts off as just a crush but then it evolves into something deeper which is what happened with R&R.

This is actually something we agree on. Given *all* the crap Ross went through with Carol through no fault of his own, he was scared to death of being hurt again by the woman he loved and this was perpetually at the center of his insecurity. If it wasn't Mark, it would have been somebody else.

However, what does this prove? It proves that Ross was insecure and that this would have inevitably caused them some problems. It does not say anything about the level of emotional involvement and dedication to each other which was the initial topic of discussion.

Absolutely. I don't think many people would argue with that. That was Ross's biggest mistake. Because of this, one thing led to another and...........you know how the rest of the story goes.

So? What's your point? How is this relevant to Rachel wanting what she can't have? It's almost like you strayed away from the point and introduced a whole new topic of discussion. But just to address your point anyway, I could translate this into C&M language and it would read C&M didn't even think of being with each other until they had sex. Is this really saying anything? Not really.

Wrong. She realized that she really wanted him in TOW Rachel Finds Out while out on the balcony talking to that guy Carl. She went to the airport to meet him with flowers. This is all *before* she knew about Julie. She had already made the decision that she wanted to be with Ross, the presence of Julie just magnified those feelings. Now if we were having a similar conversation with regard to Bonnie or Emily, then I would agree with what you say above. But not with Julie.

That particular situation was a little too serious to be casually chalked up to that so-called "crush" you mentioned earlier. As someone mentioned in another post in response to your comments, you're starting to respond with "couples competition" talk.

Activa, that particular situation is completely trivial. If you consider *that* to constitute a get together/breakup situation, than C&M have gotten together and broken up more times than we probably can count so you may want to re-think that one.

Again I agree. Ross's jealousy would have inevitably created problems somehow.

It doesn't. I think that the point was that it's not automatic and doesn't *necessarily* imply a whole lot.

I agree. C&M are a very stable couple. But what point are you trying to make in response to what Alyssa(I think) said? Again it's not really relevant. You are just re-iterating yourself and telling us something we already know.

Yes we do. But not nearly enought of it. The Joey/Chandler dynamic is one one of the most important components of this show(in my opinion it's more important than the Chandler/Monica *and* Ross/Rachel dynamic). This is one of the reasons the show has been suffering.

Chris

Chris wrote:

Thats my whole point that R&R werent at teh same level of commitment as C&M. In order to come to a certain point in a relationship to be abe and reach that kind of commitment the insecurties need to be "secured".

Ok, this is a whole nother issue and if I was to go into it, or respond to that we would be talking about something completly different.

I never heard her say it! Simply that she wanted to give it a TRY.

Afterwards for the next few episodes till Ross finds out she wants him more simply because of Julie. She wanted to give it a try, but then all of the sudden she wanted him more then anything once Julie stepped in. U know what..I dont even remember what this point has to do with anymore, i've gone so in depth.

I just saw that episode TODAY. Rachel was scared to death when he said this! So how can u say taht they were in a more commited relationship because Ross PLANS in teh future. He specifically said he got bored at work and so he just planned ahead. I do that with people that I start going out with but it never happens. IT doesnt mean taht we are at a new level of commitment.

So he likes to plan ahead, I'll go with that. But, Rachel never thought about it.

I see your point here.

So why didnt Rachel talk more about this and help Ross feel more secure? If he felt like Rachel was completly commited to him then he wouldn't have been THAT jealous over an almost completle stranger.

It's not automatic but, does imply that they are almost to a full commitment stage, its a turning point in a relatioinship. If it works out then its 90% sure they are getting married if it doesnt then they will break up. . Moving in together is like a trial for marriage. ok..I'm not going to go into this AGAIN.

I was responding to the fact they she thought C&M blending was a bad thing.

What I'm saying is that there can still be a C&J dynamic with C&M together. ~Act

This is like back at the drawing board.

Chris has a point here, and since it might make M&C look like R&R, let's avoid it?? Ha.

She realized that she really wanted him in TOW Rachel Finds Out

Did Monica say she wanted to be with Chandler forever when they started dating?? NO. And giving it a "try" is wanting to be with him for the trial period, which defeats your point.

How old are you Activia??

And if we got see it more often, there would be no complaining. Unfortunately, we don't.

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Adriana loves Matt wrote:

The point here is that it would be straying off the topic by getting into a whole thing about sex.

Yes you have a point here. But my point is, that Rachel was willing to try it and then she wanted him more after she was just willing to try it because Ross was with someone else. With C&M they wanted to try it and they wanted each other more because of how they felt about each other and how their relationship was working out.

How does this have to do with anything. Age is just a #..not the amount of situations or things you have expierenced.

Yes.. but my point is that it is possible to have C&M together and still have a C&J dynamic. I know I just repeated myself, but just because you arent seeing it often now does not mean its not possible. I'm not saying you dont have reason to complain. I"m saying that you dont have reason to believe that it wont happen with C&M still together. ~Act

Activia wrote:

You know what? I wonder if we are referring to the same thing when using the term "emotional commitment". When *I* say emotional commitment I am referring to the level of emotional involvment and dedication two people have for each other and that is what I initially thought you were referring to. You'll have to clarify if you meant otherwise.

With that said, just because one or more people of a relationship have personal insecurities does *not* automatically mean that the two people are not as emotionally involved and dedicated to each other as much as say, two people in a relationship who are somewhat more secure. Through my experience, emotional involvement and dedication is just not *dependent* on that.

Well, there wouldn't be much to talk about as it's pretty much right on the money.

She never said that either. She never said anything. But *actions* speak louder than words and flying to the airport with flowers to meet him should say more than most people would need to hear in order to know what was on her mind.

As I said and pretty much proved, her feelings were already there. The presence of Julie just magnified them to a greater level.

It was with regard to you stating that Rachel only wanted Ross *because* he was with Julie and this is what I was calling you on.

O.K. then, assuming that is true, Monica has often mentioned that she wants to have babies with Chandler and he usually gets scared to death when he hears this. I know a girl who does this all the time when she first starts going out with people but it never happens. It doesn't mean that they are at a new level of commitment. Am I right?

A person's readiness for marriage is an implication of that person's satisfaction with their life and the stage that it is at. It is not an implication of that person's emotional involvement and dedication to their partener.

I think she did the best she could. I think that last heart-to-heart conversation they had about the matter in Central Perk *started* to get Ross to come around. But on the night Rachel told Ross she wanted to take a break, Ross called and tried to work it out and found out that Mark was with her. In *his* mind, the guy he had been suspicious of all along just happens to be there with his girlfriend an hour after she tells him she wants to take a break. Now, I can't speak for all guys, but I think I would have sucked down a few budweisers after that one too and god knows what would have happened.

You have to admit there was alot of bad timing, unfortunate circumstances, and miscommunication at the center of the cause of the break-up. The jealousy certainly played it's role, but I blame the break-up on some very unfortunate circumstances that could have happened to *anyone*, jealousy or no jealousy.

You might want to re-think that one too. I've seen countless situations where that didn't happen. But that is beside the point. Just because two people in a relationship are living together does not automatically imply that they are more emotionally involved and dedicated to each other than a couple that is not living together. This is what I *think* you were trying to use as evidence to support your claim that Chandler and Monica are more emotionally involved and dedicated than Ross and Rachel were. If this is the case, the evidence isn't very strong.

I don't think her or anybody else for that matter has a problem with C&M "blending". What I think alot of people have a problem with is C&M completely consuming each other which is what has been happening lately.

Well, actually what you were implying is that the C&J dynamic was just as good as it's always been. At least that's what I extrapolated from your comment. That is what I disagreed with and that is why I responded with what I said.

I do however agree with your clarification. There *can* be a good C&J dynamic with C&M together. The problem is that this situation doesn't exist right now. There have been a few C&J stories this season, but not enough to really constitute the C&J dynamic that we've all known to enjoy.

Chris

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Chris doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

*Flying* to the airport, Chris? :)

Tina Nellis wrote:

Well, she was in a hurry and moving really fast. Damn typos.

Chris

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Chris doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

Well, it would certainly ease the traffic problems in NYC... :)

Chris wrote:

I never said it was *dependent* on that its just meerly a factor I havent even gotten a chance to go into other factors.

Yes, she had slight feeling towards him and Julie magnified them. This is my point the magnification. How did M&C's relationship get magnified? Not by jealousy but because they were with each other and their actual relationship caused them to get closer.

I worded this wrong then and I apoligize.

I dont remember Chandler being scared to death of this but once. This season he has mentioned it 2 or 3 times.

It does if Chandler is wanting a child which I have seen this season, beause that means that he is commited because he would never have mentioned the baby things on his own if he werent in a very commited relationship.

What???? I tottally diagree .. Just because your satsified with your life and you like the stage that it is at does not mean that you want to get married or are ready. It depends on the relationship. For example you could have a great job and a great family, great group of friends and be in a not commited relationship that may not mean that much to you but you are liking the stage that you are at, even if you arent at a commited stage in your life, does NOT mean you are ready to get married!

I agree on the outcome just not at the intial start.

These same circumstance made it impossible for them to be at the same commitment level as C&M. Mayve you think that I think that they will never be at this commitment level or are unable to be. Then you are wrong I simply am saying that they werent at the same commitment level before.

I think you are wrong with this. When people are living together, they can stand to be around each other eveyr second of every day pratically, that shows commitment. That is not the only reason why I think they are dedicated and emotionally envolved either just simply one reason.

~Act -I want to stop but yet I cant

Act. you are the bravest person EVER.

Moron Cow wrote:

I'm trying, its hard when you are getting gained up on I'd appreciate it if someone else would help argue my point. Unless I"m the only one that feels this way? Which I don't think is the case but thats besides the point.

I WILL respond to all those posts later. Tonight I am way too tired and already have a headache. I'll get back to you guys tommorro I'm not trying to avoid the issue by not posting tonight. I dont think I'm physically capable of thinking at that level right now. So I'll be on early tommorro and I'll post away. ~Act

Not really, Because Chandler KNEW that he could never live up to him.

Moron Cow wrote:

Honestly, *how* does this make Chandler's jealousy any *less* un-called for? It was all in Chandler's head and had to do with his own inadequacies and insecuritites just like it was with Ross. I really don't see any difference between the two.

Chris

Chris wrote:

Chandler didnt get jealous over every guy Monica met unlike Ross tahts the difference. ~Act

Activia wrote:

Now this makes absolutely no sense. The *only* guy Ross got jealous over during their relationship was Mark. So I don't quite know where your "every guy" Rachel met theory is coming from. The same applies with Chandler. Who else is there besides Richard?

Chris

Chris wrote:

no one..he jsut got jealous over Richard because she was actually in love with him and she didnt tell him that she was with him!! Ross on the other hand.. Rachel told him nothing was going on and he still didnt trust her. When Chandler found out how Monica really felt about him he wasnt jealous anymore. He thought because they had lunch together that she might have been thinking of going back with the other guy she had loved. But with Ross, any guy that hit on Rachel we only saw one guy hit on her, but I know if it wasnt mark it would have been someone else, so I can safely say that, he was way overly jealous and insecure. ~Act

Activia wrote:

Of course Chandler wasn't jealous anymore because Monica didn't continue to see Richard on a regular basis. Rachel on the other hand worked with Mark and had no choice but to see him on a regular basis which is what made Ross continue to worry. There's no telling how Chandler would have reacted if if Monica had continued to hang out with Richard. You're trying to make Chandler's jealousy seem justifiable in comparison with Ross's. But the problem is that in trying to show this, you're comparing how the two of them acted in two *different* situations which as a result does little to support your claim.

How is this different from Ross fearing he would lose Rachel?

*Chris puts his face in his hands and shakes his head in confusion*

We have already established in another thread that Ross was jealous and insecure and you state this *again* above. *What* is this suppose to tell me in trying to support your claim that Chandler's jealousy was justified in comparison with Ross's? All it tells me is that Ross was insecure. Um O.K. So he was insecure. And? That lets Chandler off the hook because?

I'm not purposely trying to be argumentative. I'm actually trying my hardest to be open-minded and give you the benefit of the doubt. It's just whenever I ask you to elaborate more on something you say that I don't necessarily agree with, you commonly respond with comments that don't really say or imply *anything* with regard to why your conviction is what it is. It's like you're side-stepping the questions.

Chris

I'm completly exhausted but I'll do my best I might just have to answer this again tommorro so if anything is out there..u know why

Chris wrote:

Monica had a choice whether to see Richard on a regular basis, which makes a difference. Thats why I could kinda see you argumetn that Chandler would have been more upset if she continued seeing Richard but.. Unlike Rachel who didnt, so therefore Ross should have seen this and learned to get over it and trust her. That she wasnt seeing him for her own will but seeing him because she had to. So if Rachel told Ross that nothing was happening and if he trusted her. I still dotn see how you address the fact taht Monica didnt tell Chandler about seeing her ex lover but that Rachel told Ross about Mark-even though she just worked with her, but to make Ross feel better and to reassure him she did, tahts why I keep repeating it.

Why should he continue to worry if she has no choice but to see him! If she had a choice and choose to see him then I could understand! So how can this make Ross continue to worry? Just because she is working with a guy?

But it depends how they acted in these situations. Ross freaked out by just some guy working with Rachel and Chandler was upset because Monica didtn tell him that she saw her ex lover. yet chandler forgave Monica and Ross couldnt and he was in a less severe situation. I'm sure I remember some episode with Monica in the same room as a guy or I'm sure that Monica worked with a guy. Why would they show this though if Chandler trusted Monica and had no problem with it. I"m sure if Chandler was as jealous and insecure feeling not as commited to Monica taht the writers would have shown this because it would have been a conflict.

Because I dont understand your response to this so I repeat it in hopes that you will address it. So chandler was not overly jealous he felt more secure in the relationship because him and Monica have a greater commitment..because part of commitment is trust. Ross didnt trust Rachel so the commitment wasnt at the same high level.

I feel like I"m debating this in 2 different subjects. when I started the other one saying that they all have grown and matured..how did I end up talking about this again. It seems like people want to debate me on this......

sorry that was off topic..but I told you..my eyes are half closed so i'm out of it..but maybe I'm making some sense..hopefully

How am I side-stepping... ~Act

Activia wrote:

Makes a difference with *what*? What are you talking about? Honestly. I want to make sure that I'm absolutely *clear* on exactly what it is you are trying to say and that we're on the same wave lenghts here. The reason is because you're starting to respond with things that are completely unrelated to my comments and I wonder if it's because we are trying to argue two different things.

You know what Activa, maybe you really should head to bed and try this another time because I just cannot extrapolate any coherent meaning from what you just said. :)

What is there to address? What significance does this have? Is this somehow suppose to justify the way he acted and carried on? Is this somehow suppose to make his jealousy less un-called for than Ross's? Monica told him right away that there was nothing between them and the only reason she didn't tell him before was because she didn't want him to worry. However he continued to press the issue after that. Jealousy is jealousy is jealousy. There's no good jealousy, there's no bad jealousy, it's just plain old jealousy.

I never said Ross's jealousy was justified. I never in this whole conversation defended Ross's behavior. What I have done, is confront the notion of Chandler's jealousy being "O.K." but Ross's jealousy being completely un-called for.

No it doesn't. This is going to be a very naive and somewhat corny example but I think it

illustrates the weakness in your above statement quite well. Say we are trying to figure out whether Chandler is stronger than Ross. We put Ross in a room with a 500 pound box and we put Chandler in a room with a 100 pound box. Chandler is able to lift *his* box but Ross is unable to lift *his*.

Does this mean that Chandler is stronger? According to what you say above, yes it does. However we all know that it *doesn't* because Chandler and Ross are in two completely *different* situations as described in the above example. Chandler and Ross's "rooms" in the above example are metaphors for the actual situations they were in.

You are ignoring a huge detail Activa. Monica had lunch with Richard once and then Richard just disappeared. Monica never saw him again. So of course Chandler's jealousy ceased to exist. The object of his jealousy was gone. What if Richard hadn't disappeared? What if he continued to hang out with and be around Monica like Mark was with Rachel? How do we know he wouldn't have flew off the deep end over this? How do we know he wouldn't have continued to act in the same way Ross did? We don't because it never got to that stage. They were in two completely different situations and if you can't see how that makes a significant difference than I don't know what else to say.

You're trailing off again.

I think I'm going to take the liberty of ending *this* discussion because that last comment shows me that you didn't even know what we were talking about in the first place. The comment above is something we were talking about in the *other* thread and is a whole separate issue.

Activa, you didn't even *know* what you were debating. It's like you've just been "free-writing" this whole time.

But anyway, I've really had enough of this one. Please don't take anything I said personally. Your opinions are definitely respected. I just sometimes have a tendency to be the Bill Mahr of this newsgroup.

Chris

Chris wrote:

Wow I could have elaborated on that..Sorry, I for warned you that I was exhausted and it came out here as I knew it would. -I'll sum it all up in the end

Ok I think that this corny example was actually helpful. But how I was thinking of the situation is..in this example. Ross is in a room with 100 pound box *not much of a problem just some guy that Rachel happens to be working with*. Chandler is lifting a 500 pound box *Monica saw someone that she was formly in love with then didnt tell Chandler about it* Ross is unable to lift his 100 pound box(he cant get over the jealousy) yet Chandler lifts his 500 pound box(he gets over the jealousy) . Then this makes Chandler strong because he lifted a heavier box when Ross couldnt even lift the smaller one.

Ok. now you know what Im thinking in my head..now lets see if there is anywhere we can go from there.

When someone disaggrees with me I try to make examples and show more support on why I think this one point is true. Then I get so into this one point that I forget my main goal.Then the debate gets stuck on this one point. Even I would admit to this.

I've got to say I'm starting to feel the same way. We beat the cat to death maybe we should call it quits. ~Act

Oh, you can *safely* say that he would have gotten jealous, right? But can you *safely* say that Chandler would not get jealous over someone who Monica was all of a sudden seeing a lot of? Don't make assumptions because we haven't seen either case.

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

And exactly how many guys has Monica met that Chandler has had the opportunity to get jealous over??

And how many guys did Ross get jealous over in their relationship??

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

I think it's more like Chandler thought he knew that because he turned out to be wrong. I don't really see what the big deal is, I mean here is this guy who was the love of Monica's life and she didn't say anything to Chandler about seeing him. Of his insecurities are going to get the best of him. In Ross' case, being jealous over Mark, Rachel told Ross there was nothing going on and he still didn't trust her. His jealousy got the best of him, where as Chandler he was upset for a while, but he did eventually go to Monica with it and chose to believe her.

EsotericGrrrl wrote:

Thankyou! I was beginning to feel like it was 2 against one. ~Act

Exactly. Jealousy is jealousy. Chandler should not feel that he can't live up to Richard, and if you think he's justified, then so is Ross because he was really hurt in a previous relationship. And he loved Rachel even more.

Exactly, when you have a crush on someone it doesn't mean you plan the rest of your life with them. Their relationship went deeper than that.

The topic of this discussion has been completely lost, and that is: why can't chandler and monica be friends if they were to break up? No one is really answering that without throwing blows at R&R.

I said that, Chris! And you pretty much covered all the points I wanted to make when I read Act's message to keep defending my stand. =)

That's what i've been saying. Being able to name two scenes this season is not sufficient to argue against the "Chandler and Joey have lost what they had."

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Adriana loves Matt wrote:

did you read my other post on this?

Please read my response to James's.

I'm not trying to throw blows at R&R, I'm simply comparint the 2 couples. The topic was that but what branched off from that is that C&M are more commited which would make it more difficult then it was for R&R to become friends afterwards.

There are many more then just 2 scenes what do u want me to name all the ones from this season????? ~Act

Would you care to?

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Activia wrote:

I'm new here and I'm not sure if I'm doing this right, so please forgive me. I've been reading this group for a few weeks to get accustomed and I thought I might as well throw my two cents in. In terms of the show, I don't believe that C&M are more committed whatsoever. In terms of the show, I strongly disagree with the idea that C&M breaking up, no matter how long, would affect the show as much as what R&R did. In the case of R&R, you had a breakup where you could easily see both their points of view(though R&R themselves still haven't been able to do) so it could cause friends to take sides. Plus, The R&R relationship was there from the beginning of the show with everyone basically knowing that one or the other had feelings for each other and caused the friends to sort of root for them to make it. Once it fell apart no one really knew how to handle it. With C&M it came largely out of the blue. It seems by watching the show that the other friends don't have nearly as much invested in the C&M relationship as they did with the R&R relationship. They would have also dealt with something similar so they could go by experience.

I myself am a huge R&R fan. I've got no problem with C&M except they are together too much this season. I believe they need to do something to make it interesting again. I think time apart is the best answer, either by a "break"(I hate the term too) or just not focusing as much on them together.

It's obvious that some people who don't think C&M can handle a breakup just don't want to see it happen, which is very understandable(I wouldn't want anyone to go through what us R&R fans have had to endure over the last 3 years). But I think the main thing a fan of the show needs to ask themself before answering the question of could they handle it, is this. Is the C&M relationship, the way it has been so far this season, been a positive for the show as a whole??

My answer would be no because I think it has hurt the C&J dynamic and the girls apartment-boys apartment thing that they had going on. Not because I hate C&M.

I have to yell... this message is making my pizza, VERY unhappy.

In terms of the show, I strongly disagree with the

So your saying, Just because Ross had some school boy Crush on Rachel... Rachel found out about the school boy crush, broke Ross up with his girlfriend, The boys made a list, She becomes unforgiving, Not even taking any responsiblity whatsoever for Breaking up Ross and Julie.

So your Saying Just because C&M came out of the blue means they aren't as good as Ross and Rach? Hey! Look at them, they've always been close, C&M fans have caught them on several ocasions cuddling.

Well, that's why C&M fans like them, they have a different feel than Ross and Rachel.... Ross and Rachel, Yelled 'I love you' With Chanlder and Monica, it was soft and sweet :) (Probably because Matthew is really good at that soft talking romance crap :P)

Hey! Who said Chandler and Joey still can't hang out!? For god's sake did you notice they almost turned Friends into 'Ross and Rachel' (Which a lot of you wouldn't mind. But I try to stay as far away from Hype as possible... That's why I hate Who Wants To be a millionaire, and I didn't watch Friends from the begining and why I'm not as much of an R&R fan I would like to be.) And they're doing that with C&M too so I notice that's why I plead with the writers... "TAKE THE SPOTLIGHT OFF THE *COUPLE*" Trust me if the C&M Relationship becomes severly hyped... I'll be taking the next train to Joeyandphoebeville.

~Ashley* "You must stay 30 FT away from hype at all times"

Moron Cow wrote:

I'll try to make this more clear for you. Not once did I say C&M weren't as good as R&R. That has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make or the original question. The question is why wouldn't C&M be able to become friends after a breakup. Someone said they felt it would be more disruptive than when R&R broke up. I disagree. Plus, my argument has nothing to do with whether they cuddled in previous seasons. It has to do with the fact that there was a distinctive build-up to R&R finally getting together. That's why people were surprised when they saw C&M lift up the covers in their bed in London. There wasn't the build-up. I'm saying the other 4 friends were conscious of the feelings between R&R before and during the relationship and it affected the aftermath of the breakup greatly.

Yes that may be why you like them, but it doesn't really reply to my comment. You're taking what I'm saying as a rip on C&M. There's really no need to get defensive about my statement. I'm not talking about fans of the show right now. I'm talking about the characters. There's no doubt C&M and R&R have different "feels" to them. I'm only stating what I've seen by watching the show for the past 6 years. I'm saying the other 4 friends had more invested in the R&R relationship. And if you want to start with how the couples said "I love you" for the first time, that's fine. Your comment about how R&R yelled it shows that you don't really understand the importance of that scene as a whole. As for C&M saying it. If you remember correctly, the first time Chander said "I love you" to Monica, he was laughing(TOW All the Thanksgivings).

I'll ask the question again with a little different wording and you can answer it.

Has the way the C&M relationship, as portrayed this season, affected the show in a positive way?

I say no. I think it has hurt the C&J dynamic, among others. I never said they still can't hang out. My god, that's what I want to see more of. The problem is that it hasn't happened enough this season. As for the show turning into 'Ross and Rachel,' it still happens quite a bit. Why? Because the producers realize that is where their ratings are and that's what keeps peoples interest. That's why there are always R&R cliff-hangers. It captivates the general audience(not on the internet). It may annoy the hell out of us, but people tune in to see what will happen.

I remember when people were calling it The Ross and Rachel Show and C&M are there right now except that C&M don't really seem to be going anywhere in terms of a storyline. There seems to be a lack of direction from the writers in where to take the relationship. With R&R in season 3, you could see the forshadowing of future problems(Mark and the jealousy angle). C&M are getting into a dangerous area of backlash from many people. I agree with you that the spotlight needs to be taken off of them, as a couple, for a while. I'm saying that having them break up is one of the possible paths that could be taken. I don't really know yet if I think it is the best path to take.

Moron Cow wrote:

Thankyou! ~Act

Moron Cow wrote:

I'll ask again with a little different wording. With the way the C&M relationship has been portrayed this season, has it helped or hurt the show this season?

I say it has hurt it. I don't know who said C&J couldn't hang out. I sure didn't. It seems that someone inside the show did say that though because we're not seeing nearly enough of it. I'm saying that they should be. You and I agree that they need to focus more on some good C&J storylines. You sound like you're arguing with me on a point we agree on.

As for the show turning into The Ross and Rachel Show, I'm sure it seemed that way and it needed to change. The producers realized that and did something about it. C&M are at that point right now. Something needs to happen to correct this. I'm not saying what should be done. I'm just saying that an option that was brought forward(a breakup) could work. The show still becomes the R&R show when it needs to. That's why you see R&R cliff-hangers every year. The people on the internet may not like it(including myself), but it catches the attention of the general audience and gets them to tune in at the beginning of the next season.

"J. Robinson" wrote:

How does this have to do with the debate?

~Act

Well with this post I think i'm officially going to stop replying to this thread that I turned into a very extended discussion. I see that Chris and J.Robinson have expanded on any points I would have further wanted to discuss. Welcome aboard J.Robinson (What's the J for?)!! Enjoy the newsgroup and keep that Ross and Rachel pride. =)

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Adriana loves Matt wrote:

The J stands for Jay(clever huh) and the last name isn't really mine, but I've always liked it.

Boy, Couples Competition is getting waaaaaaay out of control here...

If Chandler and Monica break up, the writers will find some way to make them coexist as long as both actors want to be in the cast. The argument appears to be that they will have a harder time being together without being a couple because they are oh some much more deeply committed as evidenced by the fact that Chandler's irrational jealousy is ever so much more reasonable than Ross' jealousy and blah blah blah. I seem to recall Ross and Rachel had a very difficult time indeed. They got over it. Chandler and Monica would, too. Their pain would be played for laughs and eventually it would die down, because that is in the best interest of the show. We are the ones who can't seem to handle the idea of these breakups.

And by the way...

if there's no reason why we can't have lots of good Chandler/Joey interaction while Chandler's with Monica, then why don't we? That relationship has been almost completely knocked out the window, and one could probably do a statistical study of C&J plots by season. There is a serious decrease this year. C&M have definately harmed C&J.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Claire Abraham doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

THANK YOU CLAIRE!!!!!!

I *honestly* do not see where the argument that C&M could not be friends after a breakup comes from, but Claire just summed up my thoughts on it perfectly.

Claire Abraham wrote:

It was never intended on my part to be couples competition and I'm still not looking at it that way currently. I did not enter the discussion to defend Ross and Rachel nor to offend Chandler and Monica. It was to force someone to support a few claims that they made that I did not agree with.

Chris

Claire Abraham wrote:

Ok I have come up with a few sane reasons why the writers are doing what they are doing. Disagree or Agree. Every year we seem to have a different focus. Last year they were establishing C&M's relationship, this year we are seeing them as a matured couple on the brink of complete commitment, next year my prediction is they will either get married or broken up. Either way the J&C relationship will be brought back. If they get broken up we would be seeing a lot of the same things happening that happened between R&R..which they could do this..but which I still stand that this would be more unrealistic then R&R's breakup because M&C have more commitment and it would make more sense to have them get married. If they get married, then we are at the final stage of their relationship tis been established and explored in the other 2 seasons, so now the focus would be off of them, and we wouldnt have them being the center of the show, and we could see something different, a marriage in the group of friends. I think they will probubley go that way for that reason, because it would be different, which is what the writers want and so do the viewers.

So I think I'm just about ready to step out of this debate, and I think those are my final thoughts, unless my competitivness comes striking back and I cant contain myself. ~Act

Adriana loves Matt wrote:

I apologize to the person who initially posted that question. I think it was Tina but I'm not sure. I sort of jumped in here and started a whole other discussion but only because Activa made a comment that kind of struck a nerve with me.

Chris

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Chris doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

It was me, don't worry about it. :) (I have an overwhelming urge to kill one of my teachers at the moment, but not you. :))

Adriana loves Matt wrote:

Sorry Adriana, I was too lazy to actually look up who wrote it. :)

Chris

No prob, Chris. I'm just glad you made all those good points. =)

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

AlyssaPhoebs wrote:

Its more then complications. Things like that happen because there is a deeper fault or conflict in the relationship.

This is the insecurity I was talking about.

Exactly what I'm saying. There was a deeper problem in the relationsihp that will be brought out in some stupid argument about nothing, trust me I've witnessed many of these.

The characters may have the same atributies but not the relationships. We have seen Chandler get over his commitment issues but not so much Rachel.

~Act

Activia wrote:

You're right. There was a lack of trust on Ross's part. But that's not really relevant to the point because it doesn't show that the relationship wasn't as "emotionally deep and serious" as C&M's. C&M have a much more stable relationship than R&R had but in my opinion R&R *demonstrated* a greater level of emotional involvement with each other.

This isn't referring to their *relationship*.

Didn't you see the scarsdale/babies episode?

It was a huge deal because of the way it affected *Ross and Rachel*. Both of their world's were crashing down because they started to realize that they were going to lose *each other*.

So let me get this straight, you're chalking all that emotion in the break-up episode up to insecurity?

Well, actually, Monica has mentioned having kids togther.

I've often heard the term "Lobsters" mentioned too. :)

Nah. We're not violent people.

I understand the point you tried to make. But your reasons for trying to convince us that Ross and Rachel were not as "emotionally involved" as Chandler and Monica are were not so convincing.

Chris

No argument there. And we've even seen some people say that Ross and Rachel weren't as good friends when they got together as Monica and Chandler were (notice I say some people, I completely disagree). Ross and Rachel even managed to make it through TWO big-n-ugly breakups. And where are they now?? Trying to freak each other out and prove they have unagi! (IMO, they're also on their way to getting back together again). =)

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Act, what a cute nickname. Hehe. OK, back to business. I'd like to start off that... I agree Activia, stable couples aren't ALWAYS boring. But when you place a stable couple in a certain sitcom there is a variation of certain rules and factors that apply. You mentioned "Mad About You". (What a charming show that was- I do miss it.) The show's original plot was about a married couple. That's a sitcom that's ABOUT A MARRIED COUPLE. "Friends" was not intended to be the "R&R" or "C&M" show. It was intended to be about a group of friends, (sorry if it sounds like I'm spelling it out for ya because rest assured that I find no doubts in your intellect :-) ) and... that's about it. Sure they threw in Ross and Rachel in the beginning to boost the ratings as well as the storylines. There's nothing that draws viewers to a TV set as much as that "Romeo and Juliet" complex of two people who should be together but can't because of complications. (The complications being that little chicken we all adore... Ross Geller. Oh- and of course Julie... and Bonnie... and Emily... and Chloe... don't forget Mark... and... anyone who comes up in the future.) And if Ross and Rachel ever lost their flavor the back-up plan was Joey and Monica... thank god that never happened. But, I'm getting off track here... OK. I would never *prefer* that Chandler and Monica break up... but the show is steering away from the original concept. Sure it's great that C&M together but not EVERY Chandler or Monica storyline has to be about *both* of them. When was the last time we saw Chandler doing something that didn't include Monica... and vs. versa? When the writers put Chandler and Monica together - what a smart move with excellent timing :-) - it was an instant hit. I'm sure a minority would not agree but I know people who didn't even watch the show for a while until they heard that there was a new couple. And the writers were so blinded by the success of couple that was only supposed to last for "two or three episodes" that they blew C&M out of proportion. And they're running out of material and producing what I'd call mediocre storylines. AND they're changing Monica and Chandler to make these storylines work. If it were up to me I'd keep C&M together but apart... if you understand what I'm saying. Not every single episode needs Chandler and Monica attached at the hip. I believe the "Mondler" complex has infected the show... it's fixable- but they need to act quick!!!

And you know what else they should do... put Ross and Rachel back together before I go INSANE!!!!!!!!!!

(Everyone steps back in fear.)

OK... so maybe I already have.

(They cross their arms and look skeptical.)

OK... so I maybe I always was.

That's what I'm saying there is still many possibilties if the writers put their heads together I"m sure they can come up with something good :o) ~Act

AlyssaPhoebs wrote:

Thanks :o) ~Act

Very well stated. Mad About You was great, but as you said, that was the intended premise for every episode, a married couple.

On a side note, the guy who played mark (Steve Eckhardt was it?) is going to be on a new show on CBS (I never watch CBS, but I saw the Grammys). Just seeing the guy on tv reminded me so much of those horrible days in season three, though, it was weird.

Exactly. Ross and Rachel weren't like that, and they were still supposedly really hard to write for. So why don't the writers realize Monica and Chandler aren't exactly easy to write for either? Just in case there's arguments against Ross and Rachel not being like that, here's my support in advance:

TOW Joey Moves Out- Rachel goes with Phoebe to get a tattoo; plot doesn't revolve around them as a couple.

TOW The Bullies- Ross and Chandler get picked on; plot doesn't revolve around them as a couple.

TOW The Two Parties- Rachel tries to keep her parents from seeing each other; plot doesn't revolve around them as a couple.

Those are just a couple from season two...

Before all of us do.

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

They can't put Ross and Rachel back together anymore, because from a
motiviational standpoint, it just doesn't make sense.  If this were to have
happened, it would have happened last September when they were married.
  As for Chandler and Monica, I agree that they don't have to be connected
at the hip everytime they're on.  However, I'd say they're LESS connected at
the hip literally speaking than Ross and Rachel were in seasons 2-3.   Thank
God and NBC we don't have Monica always sitting on Chandler's lap at Central
Perk or in their apartment.  True, they do seem to talk about having sex a
bit too often than a couple that's reached this stage of their relationship
would, but beyond that, just in terms of the way the characters  ACT around
each other, they seem to be much more of an adult couple than Ross and
Rachel were. That's why I don't think they're going to split these two up
anytime soon.  Yes, it would be nice if Chandler were worried about
something in his long forgotten office (That's a very flattering sleeve
length) and came home and mentioned it to Monica.  Or if Monica were doing
something with Phoebe, Joey, Rachel, or her brother.  But that being said,
it seems like the evolution of Chandler and Monica into a couple is much
more realistic that two people would evolve into at that point of their
lives.  And I can truly see Chandler and Monica, if this show continues (and
hopefully with KBC taking direct control), that Chandler and Monica can go
up there with some of the great sitcom couples of all time, like Lucy and
Ricky, Archie and Edith, Ralph and Alice.
  That's compared to Ross' going psycho the last two seasons.   I always
liked the Ross character up until Red Ross seemed to come along.  He was one
of my favorites.  Unless they find some way of adapting this character back
to the sort of personality he had in the past (here again comes my
Ross-is-a-drunk theory), then I can't see Ross having a fourth wife.
    Face it.  If you were Rachel, would you want to have anything to do with
him right now??????

Spoiler Face it. If you were Rachel, would you want to have anything to do with

No.  But she does.  Which is one of my primary beefs about the sitcom.
They have ruined this character and made him borderline frightening, and
nobody else seems to care.  If they want Rachel back in love with him
for an episode, boom! it will happen.  Tada!   The writers do not appear
to understand the depth of the consequences of the actions they are
making Ross take.  (After the last episode, he would normally go to jail
for QUITE SOME TIME.)   They've just taken this tack too far and need to
reevaluate the direction they want him to go and how they want him to
come across.

Hellooooo!!! After getting drunk in Vegas, Claire Abraham doodled cat whiskers on his/her face and miaowed this little lot at a statue...

And if this was real life, the minute the professors at NYU found out about his upcoming fling with the student, he'd at least be up in front of a disciplinary committee. But in spite of the fact they appear to make a great deal of the fact he's risking his job over this, we all *know* that the most that's likely to happen is that someone is going to talk sense into him, he's going to break it off, and then The Dance Of Ross and Rachel is going to start up again, right in time for the finale. The only thing I'm absolutely certain of is that Rachel is going to come into play at some point during this story arc, given her disapproving 'Dr. Geller!' at the end of 619, and I think she's going to be the one who talks sense into him. Unfortunately, we all know what that also tends to bring...

I completly agree.

Exactly! There is a lot of potential and many ideas can happen. This is a good idea for an episode. Everyone thinks the only way to make things exciting is to break people up instead of thinking that they can make up many good storylines with them together.

I think this could happy to if the Writers get to work and put their thinking caps on more! ~Act

I don't think the writers cater to anybody. They try to make people laugh. I snarl when the methods they use are damaging, demeaning and stupid, but this was mostly OK.

Claire Abraham wrote in message ...

surprise. I thought this was

this season and at one

forgotten the Janice

I was just thinking how

was able to forgive the

Ross is an Asshole. At

Ross has always been

caused the Evolution

didn't like was him

woman. That's a

Phd.

Wow. We agree. Completely and 100%. I thought it was the best C&M storyline since...well, last week, but *before* that, probably the best one since TOW Rachel's Inadvertant Kiss. The Ross/Rachel/Phoebe storyline had me rolling, too--it's okay that Ross is annoying when Schwimmer makes it so damn funny. I thought Joey's storyline was just a funnier version of the hand twin story, but I liked the rest of the episode so much I forgave them for that.

Just an extra note--I knew Janice's voice would be on the tape, but I didn't know she would sing--oh the horror. :)

Lauran

I agree 100% too. Although I think Monica gave in a little too easy after everything she did to make up for the sock bunny. But it was all worth it once we heard janice sing.

I also agree about the Joey story. I thought there were funny parts to it, but it did remind me of the hand twin story. i just couldn't believe that Joey would actually think he could pull it off.

They were playing it on the radio this morning. LOL!!!!

Lora

Ross: "I'm going to make myself happy" Chandler: "Do you want us to leave the room?"

Lora J wrote:

LMAO!!!!!
~Act

Lora J wrote in message news:[email]...

I did think this was better than Rachel fixing a sink for a whole episode. To a certain degree, you could think that Ross' motivations were quasi-altruistic: he wanted to make sure Rachel and Phoebe could take care of themselves, but he also didn't want to look like... well, the way he did after Rachel and Phoebe overpowered him. I also kind of doubt muggers look into how to get out of the position Ross was in.

It was a great episode.

once

That's why Monica was mad. Chandler had let her do... things... to make up for the sock puppet when he had done the exact same thing. Monica knows Chandler wouldn't be dumb enough to give a gift from Janice on purpose, but the idea he had lied to her for so long and was going to try and get as much home cooking and... home cooking... as he could out of it make her angry. IMHO, not "get out of my apartment" angry, but pretty angry none-the-less.

but

Yeah. I think Joey realized his faulty reasoning, but tried to blame Carl at the last second.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... someone give Maggie Wheeler a sitcom! As I doubt this is the last season for Friends (no matter what Entertainment Weekly implied this week), I hope we will see Janice again.

Bobby C.

Oh, but it was supposed to be more than Rachel fixing a sink, it was Rachel fixing a sink *with* Ross...them together is always good.

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

Lauran Mitchell wrote:

At LAST. I was beginning to think that My friends and I were the only ones that were rolling on the floor laughing their ass off at this episode. It was hilarious..and when Janice's voice came on..I did fall on the floor!! ~Act

I am so envious of you. I really wanted to enjoy last night's episode. Even though I tried not to let it get to me the past two weeks episodes were so wonderful I had high hopes for the following... and I was extremely disappointed. Nevertheless, I am happy that you guys enjoyed it. And, on top of that, have a nice day! (Sees everyone's queasy attempts to smile back.) OK... yeah, I know that last one was cheesy. (Steps back.) I'll just be moving over here in case you guys feel a little nauseasted.

[email] [email]

The unexpectedness in that made it hilarious!

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

In article , Claire Abraham wrote:

this was

Definetly! Even as a Chandler and Monica fan, I was rolling my eyes at the vapo-rub. This one was a definite improvement on that.

I had forgotten the Janice

"There's something about the way you look everynight Chandler.." Has me rolling on the floor. Thst voice.

I was just thinking how

forgive the

Asshole.

"Danger Danger!" Some people didn't care for Ross's girly shriek, but I trhough David carried that well..

been

Evolution

him

I almost wondered why the instuctor didn't call the police.

I liked this episode. Much better thn one's like TOW The Joke, you do have to admit. And we have learned two thins, Ross definetly does *not* have unagi, and that Janice's voice is more powerful than Chandler's puppy dog look.

Maria wrote:

I did too that was funny!

~Act

I thought it was fairly good too, although I have trouble these days seriously evaluating episodes because my mind is on so many other things at the same time.

I definitely agree with your last statement. If I had been that instructor, I would have thought seriously about reporting Ross to the local police.

Claire Abraham wrote:

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

P

A

C

E

Maybe he's bePhddled.

Up until yesterday, I was expecting a very cute subplot involving a sink and some possible flirting between two characters who should be together. When this expectation was dropped yesterday, i was expecting this episode not to please me. Surprisingly, I did enjoy it very much though.

I wish Ross had said that line less too, but I thought both Jennifer and Lisa were great in this plot and the whole concept wasn't really bad, the only parts I minded were Ross' two too-much-like-a-girl screams. I could have lived without those. I guess I'm just glad that they didn't have Ross and Rachel completely apart like I expected they would after abandoning the sink thing (ok, I know, lots of expectations). I wouldn't be able to call any of that flirting, though, but it was still enjoyable. They have chemistry no matter what I tell ya.

Especially

I thought their plot was a little too much, but unlike most Chandler/Monica plots which remind me of Ross and Rachel not being together and make me a little upset, this one actually made me laugh because of Janice. I thought the tape was hysterical!

I'd say the same for Ross and Rachel if something

My only comment: glad you think they'll be together in the future! =)

OK... the only good storyline... Joey's. The "How're you doing" had me

As Joey humor tends to save everything else. The plot was kind of lame, especially since they already did the Joey's twin (well, hand twin), but regardless, Matt made it good. He sure is one for funny facial expressions.

Ok, my only other comment as of now is on their hair. I liked Courteney's a lot better tonight than what they've done with it the rest of this season. Matthew's not as much, it seemed to emphasize his forehead, but it could just be me. Phoebe's was cool too, though, they're slowly bringing it to Lisa's real size!

Adriana

Ross: I don't know if anything is ever going to happen with us again, ever, but I don't want to know that it never could. So I stopped it, and she got mad and broke my projector. -TOW Chandler Can't Cry

I disagree. I had a friend that I went out with (a lot like C&M did) and we stayed together for awhile, but due to him deciding that if i wasnt there, what he did wouldnt hurt me, we broke up. But we are still friends, and we still have the same circle of friends, and nobody took sides, it was a very normal thing, everything just went back to the way they were before the two of us went out. I think that things could still be that way with chandler and monica if they broke up, and i think that rachel and ross' relationship after the break up, is very normal.

-Kat

Monica:"Fine! Judge all you want to but (to Ross) married a lesbian, (to Rachel) left a man at the altar, (to Phoebe) fell in love with a gay ice dancer, (to Joey) threw a girl's wooden leg into the fire, (to Chandler) live in a box."