Some chick named Wanda claims to know that Joey and Phoebe will have a romantic storyline in the final season. Aside from the obvious point that they don't seem really compatible at all, here's some other reasons why this won't fly with the audience if it's tried...
1.) Ending the show with 3 couples will officially put "Friends" into the Webster Dictionary next to such words as "contrived", "cliche", and "unimaginable".
2.) If Joey gets into a love tryst with Phoebe, it's going to instantly reduce whatever feelings he had for Rachel, if he just ends up falling for friend after friend of his.
3.) Phoebe would really come off as Joey's backup.
4.) This show is called "Friends" for chrissakes!!!
Feel free to add on, there's only a few hundred more reasons.
Oh, I don't know that it's really all that obvious. Actually, of the three prefabricated couples, it would seem to me they are more compatible in many ways than the other two.
Seems to me that, at least in much of the writing for the romantic angles, it's pretty much there already and has been for some time.
How? Having similar IQ's doesn't make two people compatible.
What made the 8th season stand above all others is that for the first time in the show's history, the romantic angles *weren't* predictable. It actually was nice tuning in to see the show and not knowing what was going to happen.
It does not appear to me that they have similar IQs. She's very eccentric, but quite a bit swifter on the uptake than he is. They are, however, the two friends most inclined to accept unusual ideas and alternative ways of thinking.
I feel Rachel's IQ is much higher than Joey's. You can tell she has to downsize her vocabulary when talking to Joey, but what makes them click is they both have big hearts when relating to each other.
I didn't say it did Andr�. I was replying to Maizeandblue who felt that Rachel's IQ was much higher than Joey's on the grounds that she downsizes her vocabulary when talking to him.
Listen, unlike many people here, I'm not using Joey's perceived lack of intelligence as a reason why Rachel shouldn't be with him. The fact is, Joey's heart is miles bigger than Ross's ever could be, and if you took the baby out of the equation, Joey would easily have been a more ideal mate for Rachel's personality.
And I don't believe Joey's intelligence level will be a factor in how this relationship triangle is resolved. It all comes down to whether Rachel can find some reason to arouse loving feelings for Joey, or if Joey can feel comfortable entering a romantic relationship with a woman involved in a dysfunctional family situation.
Ross is a non-factor here, it will either be Joey's or Rachel's decision.
Andre - I see an orange bagel running around...or are you the one with whom I discussed pink elephants? Same thing.
"Maizeandblue" wrote in message news:[email]...
news:...
Maizeandblue, I agree that Joey's intellect is a *complete* nonissue here, and I think you can certainly make a case for Joey having a personality which is more compatible with hers - at least initially, without considerations of baggage and history.
It is certainly Rachel's decision, but I think you have seriously underestimated the real affection between Ross and Rachel. Your assessment would suggest that Rachel's primary reason for choosing Ross is Emma, and that her genuine feelings for him will play no part in it. Furthermore, you have dismissed the R&R dynamic as a dysfunctional family situation, with no indication it could be anything else. On this we must be clear; if, as I strongly suspect, the writers choose to have Ross and Rachel end the show as a couple, they will take every measure to indicate that these two have chosen this path because they love each other, and ALL the characters - including Joey - will ultimately regard this as the right choice. Ross will indeed be a very heavy factor. The writers have created no scenes in which Rachel has overtly expressed interest in Joey as the man with whom she actually want to become romantically linked, and she has given several indications of renewed interest in Ross. An R&R reunion, if it comes, WILL be portrayed in this fictional world as the happiest possible ending. Now, a Joey/Rachel pairing will, as well, but in order for that to happen the writers will have to do a 180 degree turn in the way they've been going with this; when we last left the friends, Phoebe had just convinced Ross to try to win Rachel back, Judy had suggested they get married, the other four friends had just stared daggers into Joey for even mentioning aloud how he felt for Rachel, and Rachel had just made a desperate attempt to grab Joey as a Ross substitute in sheer panic. Joey looked shocked and worried when he figured it out. The subtext which ran through that episode, with no subtlety at all, was that Ross and Rachel still loved each other and everybody really thought they ought to be together. Even Joey wasn't fighting it; he was just incredulous that Ross dragged his heels so much.
Yeah, we talked about both, though I'm not really sure where you are coming from in this case. Either way, I'm way too relaxed to really care or have any deep thoughts about all this at the moment (how intelligent is Joey, why should Rachel be with x in the end...) - what three weeks of holiday can do to you :)
Just the fact that Tennant once again used his notorious "but he says 'whom' quite often" remark made me laugh and I simply had to comment on it :D
Anyway, the weather is nice, I'm trying to keep my tan and stuff... I'm off
I still don't see any signs of legitimate spoilers. Wow, it's funny how you can't find something when you are looking for it but it keeps showing up when you want to avoid it. :)
Should I expect to see petty comments like this preceeding every reply you don't agree with?
Baggage should be a nonissue if 2 people truly love each other, and history of relationships is just that...history.
The whole reason Rachel was looking to get with Ross, and subsequently Joey, in the finale was that so she didn't have to raise Emma alone. Outside of the emotional release of seeing their newborn for the first time, there have been no serious romantic implications between Ross and Rachel, and that's an obvious point because the producers want to keep Joey in the triangle for the cliffhanger to have had any real meaning.
And I guess you were one of those who didn't think what happened in 818-822 felt incredibly out of place, considering most thought the proceeding storyline from 812-817, which had no closure, was casting a giant shadow on this "serious affection" between Ross and Rachel.
It will forever remain a mystery whether the producers originally intended to drop the Joey/Rachel storyline only to bring it back as the cliffhanger, or whether the producers only brought it back up because fans were so furious with the original "conclusion". However, has the thought ever occured to you that the main reason there was any sentimentality between Ross and Rachel in the first place was to make the cliffhanger idea of a love triangle more effective?
Furthermore, you
So what do you call Emma being born into unwed parents who have a tumultuous past? The ideal American family??
On this we must be clear; if, as I
I think at this point, with Marta Kauffman herself saying the nation is so split right now, that 1.)A Ross and Rachel ending is hardly a sure thing and 2.)The only way fans at this point will be either completely behind Ross or Joey as a romantic hero is if steps are made to make the other person look really bad. And I don't see that happening.
Joey had clearly become the romantic hero midway through the 8th season, but the awkward writing that followed tended to lessen the impact he had.
The way the cliffhanger is set up, it seems that the ball is in Joey's and Rachel's court. Either Rachel makes a choice herself, or Joey puts aside his feelings for Rachel that he still has, and pushes her toward Ross.
Look at 812-817 and look at 818-824, and tell me how you can see more love in Rachel's eyes for Ross than Joey.
But you are ignoring the statements Phoebe made to Ross. I think she may be expressing the writers' point of view when she said "you love her, you always have". Ross didn't disagree here. If anything, he indicated that he was afraid to get back with Rachel because of Emma. He said that if it didn't work out, he couldn't do that to Emma. It seems to be that he was thinking of Emma's welfare in not getting together with Rachel. Only when Phoebe said that he could have everything he has wanted since he was 15 did Ross appear with the flowers. That little scene with Phoebe explained just why Ross was so reluctant to start things back up. Not because he didn't love her but because he was afraid.
As far as Rachel's feelings, she didn't appear to consider she would be left alone by Ross until Janice's statements to her. Then she got worried. Add that to her emotional state and Joey's confirmation of that possibility and assurance that HE will always be there and that's how the cliffhanger happened.
Don't worry about it, that particular thing had nothing at all to do with anything you said.
here,
Sure. *If*. That decision has yet to be made.
assessment
and
That is an opinion. Not a fact. Rachel never actually said she wanted Ross back *only* because she didn't have to raise Emma alone; another possible interpretation is that after she moved in with him and began spending more time with him, she began to become comfortable with the idea of being with him again. This idea that she only wants Ross as the father of her child is what you want to see in it. You and I are seeing this from equally biased viewpoints; it is important for both of us to realize this and recognize that
So-so. I don't think the way Rachel treated Ross was out of place, or vice versa. There was a reason why Rachel sadly turned Joey down without any serious consideration at all. I did think her behavior in the clip show was absolutely inexcusable, bordering on creepy. The thing that I found most puzzling was not that Rachel dropped the issue (she's never been one to be overly interested in another person's discomfort) but that Joey did.
Well, a happy marriage proposal between R&R would have been a boring cliffhanger. This was certainly much more interesting, and Joey is without question the only obstacle they could throw these two which wasn't just laughable.
However,
That is a possible interpretation. We will have a definitive answer to that question almost certainly by November sweeps. You don't have to agree with me, but I really, honestly think that Joey's primarily a very compelling obstacle for them.
no
Read my sentence again. Note the words, "with no indication it could be anything else."
show as
OK, that's a fact.
that 1.)A Ross and Rachel ending is hardly a
Grin. Well, clearly it's not! Fans are not completely behind either one! We are divided! :-)
Well, then, what you mean is that Ross will not actually make the decision. I think that's a fair statement. It doesn't mean he's not a factor. If Rachel loves Ross, or he does something that reminds her why she just can't get him out of her psyche, he will be a huge factor.
Well, we can begin with the number of times she kissed Ross - genuinely- and the fact that she TOLD Janice she wanted Ross. She flirted with Joey for fun, and felt terrible when she realized where that dangerous game led. She has never kissed Joey, never suggested to anybody that she wanted him, certainly never tried to seduce him, and generally has treated him like her friend.
Now,
with
Yeah, that's kind of it. I think that, unfortunately, they are using Joey for sweeps stunts. I'll hear any cries that he deserved better than this and raise you an "I agree with that."
I honestly don't know if many would agree with you on that.
No, but here we are trying to predict what the show will do, based on what they have told us about Ross and Rachel vs. Rachel and Joey. Here's the deal. What we *think* should happen is a matter of opinion. What's going to happen is probably pretty much a matter of fact by now, though we aren't privy to the inside information. If R&R end up together, then indeed 812-817 was the abberation, created to improve the story. We will find out almost certainly by November. Shrug. I could be wrong. It won't be a major crisis if I am. But I really don't think so. And we can argue about it until the show goes off the air. but it really won't change anything. Either the producers intended for Joey to be a real threat to R&R, or he was a wrinkle in the story. And soon we will know for sure.
he
Yeah. Not sure how what you are saying here contradicts what I said.
Yep. History is a significant factor here; these two have never let each other go. They really don't want to.
which
Rachel
Ross
Ross is afraid of how breaking up with Rachel might hurt Emma. His conversation with Phoebe reveals that he still loves her. Rachel is afraid that Ross might not want her anymore, but it was clear she wanted him. They are hampered by insecurity, but not by a lack of feeling. Even in your interpretation, you have made no mention of Rachel actually wanting Joey.
I will be careful here. You want to *believe* that I am reading things into the finale that aren't there. I might counter that you are trying very hard to blot out what you vigorously don't want to see, even when the characters bluntly state that it is so. Well, one of these two conditions is the true situation, but once again, we are both seeing this through very biased eyes. One of us is right. One of us is not. Only time will tell which one of us that is.
Well...she never actually said she wanted Joey *only* because she wouldn't have to raise Emma alone either, but that's kind of the implied reason she's desperately seeking a mate, and inadvertantly bringing Joey back into the mix in the process. She might have been moved by his reassurance that he would always be there, and probably took it as a proposal speech once Joey showed the ring.
They are propositioned multiple times by Janice, Ross's mom, and Phoebe about why they aren't together if they are having a baby, and they both said they aren't in that place. Then Janice puts those thoughts into Rachel's mind about raising Emma alone, and Rachel immediately suggests to Ross a renewed romance by talking about the kiss.
I agree with you that the way Rachel treated Ross was not out of place, but the dynamic had completely changed by the time 818 rolled around, and that's what made it out of place. The writers' failure to anticipate that there might be a change in how people viewed the characters post Joey/Rachel was a calamity.
I'm sorry, I just don't see a major character being an "obstacle" to something else. I didn't consider Ross as an obstacle to Joey when Joey tried to tell Rachel his feelings, and I don't consider Joey one now. And the audience got relatively pissed off at the cliffhanger which gave the apperance of Joey getting in the way, so the obstacle path is probably not something the writers would pursue.
So answer my question, what else could it be?
Ross's character has been so assasinated over the past few years that I don't think there's anything he can do romantically that would make Rachel, and subsequently us, fall in love with him again. That doesn't mean that Rachel won't pick Ross eventually, but it seems more so that it's Rachel decision, or maybe Joey suggesting Rachel stay with Ross.
But would you not agree that Joey is in better position right now to be a romantic hero since he does care for a woman whose baby is not his own, and whose friendship with Rachel has not been scarred by a tumultuous past?
When does she say to Janice, in words, that she "wants" Ross? She is saying that she doesn't believe Ross will leave her alone to raise Emma. They were discussing Emma's welfare comparing a single parent to two parents, not how Ross is the alpha male of mankind.
And while we are comparing 812-817 to 818-822, I think the strongest point made for 812-817 being much better was that Matt LeBlanc essentially got an Emmy nomination for his work in those episodes, while Ross's antics in 818-822 and even before that did not garner much in the way of support. And many have said that the Emmy voters have finally gotten it right this year with their picks, so maybe there's something to that.
I think the storyline needs to run it's course before we can completely reduce Joey's role in this to that of obstacle. If Rachel and Joey eventually do get together at some point in the 9th season, then the cliffhanger accident will likely be seen as a catalyst in retrospect, than as the obstacle it appears to you to be now.
I think term "stared daggers" is just a tad over the top, don't you think? They were just being brought down by Joey lamenting over not being able to have Rachel, not maliciously spewing venom at him for even thinking that he should be with Rachel.
Right...
Rachel has never said she still loves Ross either. Ross has never said she still loves Rachel. What you are saying is what Phoebe said, and for a woman who can't keep a man beyond one episode on the show, she's not the person to be giving romantic advice.
And there's good reason why they didn't have Rachel or Ross say they loved each other, because that would close down a lot of roads this triangle storyline could take, and the producers wanted to keep those open so people obviously will tune in to see what happens in the 9th season.
Well...you are. And I'm sure at some point in this I have as well. Guess when the season starts up again we'll find out if our intrepretation matches that of the producers.
I'm afraid it's more likely you are one trying hard to vigorously blot out what you don't want to see. You want to see this as an R&R and Joey storyline, when practically every newspaper article and entertainment report covering this, and heck, the producers themselves, have called this the Rachel/Joey/Ross *triangle*.
When you finally begin to appreciate that Joey is on equal footing with Ross in this, then you'll realize this story's ending isn't so cut-and-dry as you think.
Well, it was certainly jarring for people who really enjoyed the Joey/Rachel storyline and expected it to continue. For the folks who really bought into the idea of Joey being Rachel's new lover, yes, it was quite a calamity. Maybe not for casual viewers. Certainly not for the producers; they seemed to be quite pleased with the hubbub they've created.
No matter which direction the writers go with this, one of these men is now doomed to be the obstacle for the other. Ross was written as the obstacle for Joey in midseason of last year.
And the audience got relatively pissed off at the cliffhanger
Is there any indication the writers themselves are not happy with the controversy they've caused? Big buzz equals big ratings.
with
Two people who never really got over each other coming closer together and realizing they never really fell out of love. I am not saying this is certain; I am saying this is a possible direction the writers could go.
decision.
can't
Well, some audience members will be unable to accept him as Rachel's suitor ever again. I suspect you are one of them. I understand that - and I agree that some extremely short-sighted writing which demonized Ross in places was a huge mistake. Rachel, however, can be shown to still be in love with Ross at the writer's whim.
That doesn't
Well, ultimately Rachel must indeed make the decision of which man she keeps, no matter which one.
I agree that this is your opinion. :-) I also agree that you will be able to find plenty of people who agree with you. Some may not.
and
Well, she gives him two *genuine*, and very passionate kisses - one after she successfully goes into labor and one after the baby is born. She tells Janice
"Besides y'know what? I-I-Maybe we won't be alone, 'cause lately I-I-things have been happening between me and Ross, y'know? Right before I went into labor, we-we had this kiss. Y'know? So it might be the.the beginning of something."
Again, note this, note the wording: "-things have been happening between me and Ross, y'know?"
They had been. Besides the kisses, and her attempts to get him to have sex with her - both before AND after she actually went into labor - each episode from 819 or so onward was peppered with little innuendos, hints and teases. He told her how he WOULD have proposed to her. She decided she couldn't stand it when he dated anybody else. They started small, and gradually grew bigger and bigger until we have Phoebe asking Ross why he's afraid to go after Rachel, whom she can tell he still wants, and Rachel is openly hoping he'll come back to her. It isn't really particularly subtle.
She is
No, I don't think anybody at all said Ross was the alpha male of his own bathroom, let alone mankind. She did say she was hoping that their romance was beginning again.
Well, OK. However, we are now discussing several different issues.
1. Whether or not Rachel and Ross still have any genuine feelings for each other, and whether or not Rachel's feelings for Ross make Ross a factor here. 2. Whether 812-817 were better episodes than 818-822. 3. Why the academy thought LeBlanc did better work this year than Schwimmer did.
Joey had several very effective episodes and he got a lot of support for that. That does not mean Rachel and Ross don't love each other.
Joey
and
Deal - IF we can also let the storyline run its course before we can declare that Ross will not be a factor in its resolution, and that there is conclusively no love between Ross and Rachel.
But one of these men is the obstacle. It may be written in such a way that both end up being heroes, but one guy is going to have to get out of the way, and he's going to lose at least a little.
Yep, and if Ross and Rachel eventually do get together, then the cliffhanger was an obstacle. We just have to wait and see which thing happens.
No, I genuinely think the others find Joey's behavior extremely inappropriate - and they've said so to his face. Chandler's comments on the subject have made some people downright angry.
I think it would be interesting to hear what you believe was the writer's purpose in that scene.
Well, yes, that's exactly right. They certainly did want to keep the suspense up on this; the story dies when it's a done deal with no conflicts. They've certainly danced around that bush a lot though.
into
Well... you think I am.
Bingo. I said something very similar in the last post I wrote. We see this two different ways, and one of us has made the more accurate guess.
What exactly is it that I have blotted out? Joey's love for Rachel? No, that's quite clear. Rachel's love for Joey? Well, if I missed the scene where she told somebody that she missed him as a roommate, or wished he had been the father, or something, please let me know.
You want to see this as an R&R and
Blink. Well, yeah, it's certainly a triangle. Wouldn't be much of a triangle with only one guy in it.
Your posts do not indicate that you think Ross is on equal footing with Joey. You think it's all up to Rachel and Joey to decide how this will turn out, and Ross is not a factor. The comment "Ross is not a factor" was the sparking point for this entire debate. You have negated any indication of Rachel having any real feeling for Ross, or vice versa, claiming it all to be just attempts to make a family for Emma, and you have stated these things as if they were certain.
I will give you this: if Ross and Rachel don't really love each other, and there is no genuine spark there, and they are just considering getting together for the sake of the baby, then Rachel SHOULD be with Joey instead. The writers will never put R&R together only for Emma's sake. It will only happen if they are in love - and if they are in love, the evidences of love which you have declared stuff that I am imagining will have been the catalysts for that reunion, just as Joey's "proposal" will be the catalyst if Joey and Rachel get together.
Actually, one of our two interpretations probably IS right, and the other has in fact blotted out some things and embellished on others. We just don't know which one yet. Shrug. Well, we will know in November. The 200th show is happening during November sweeps, if I'm not mistaken, and I suspect this story arc will be brought to a great climactic close at the 200th. (Giving the other man several months to get to his own happy ending. )
They do seem pleased, but I think they realize they are playing with fire when they admit they won't drag out the storyline for too long. Yet such a major plotline as this needs time to develop a proper conclusion, so they won't go too quickly on it.
I believe what will happen is there will be a minor conclusion in the 5th or 6th show, but hints will be left that they intend to come back to this later on towards the end of show. It's really the only compelling story left to be told IMO.
You took it out in my reply, but I don't think Ross was portrayed as an obstacle to Joey in the 8th season. Ross relented pretty quickly when Joey told him, and Joey's conflict centered more around him wanting to be with Rachel.
But now the pressure is on them to create a conclusion that is not contrived. If people don't buy whatever the resolution is, they will turn off the show.
I think what was once tense arguments between heated ex-lovers turned somewhere in the 6th season into a style of prickly one-uppers that had lost that romantic tension behind it. What that did was create a lot more laughs when they started arguing, and I think the writers have hit upon that aspect and continued to use it, dropping any sense of tension with it. It's going to take quite a turn to change them back to heated lovers again after this prickly period.
But the key is if we the audience will buy it. They can make Ross and Rachel be happy together, and make everybody be happy with it, but if we don't buy it that Rachel can love what Ross has become today, it won't work. Likewise, they would need the audience to buy why Rachel wouldn't want to be with Joey, which they didn't accomplish last season.
I predict some Joey gallantry early on in the season is what is going to have a major role in Rachel's decision.
Yes, and I was asking if you agree with that opinion.
So, which one are you?
How much do you think those kisses had to do with passion, or the fact that she was going into labor and because their baby was born? Heck, I'd kiss my ex-wife if she gave birth to my child.
And you know what, all the time those "things have been happening", a lot of the audience has been wondering "Where's Joey?", which instantly leads me to believe these "things" aren't the Real McCoy, but intended to set up a triangle for the cliffhanger. If Ross and Rachel do get together, it's going to be based on something that happens in the 9th season.
There is nothing in 819 that has to do with R&R. 820 had no romantic teases to it. Only finally when 821 came around did that conflict start to rise. And those kisses weren't such groundbreaking moments, otherwise NBC wouldn't spoil them in promos a month in advance.
When the Joey/Rachel storyline was left with an open ending in 817, did you really not think in the back of your mind that the proposal moment in the following episode in 818 somehow wasn't eventually going to be related to what just happened? I don't think the writers would go from Joey/Rachel to Ross/Rachel in 1 episode. That logic defies understanding when trying to write something realistic.
But it does mean the producers and writers are going to write whatever they think makes good television.
Think about this: Monica and Chandler have been a couple for the better part of 5 years now. And in all that time, you would think people would have grown weary or bored with that couple, but really you could only count on your hands the number of people who are sick of those two as a couple.
That's not the case for R&R, and that's because the ways they have been in and out of their relationship has gotten so unrealisitc that it's to the point a considerable group of people just don't buy it anymore. That could be one reason the suggestion of Joey/Rachel was a success, because it was realistic in the way it happened. What this means is the producers, I feel, are going to go with whatever feels realistic to them, and yet makes compelling television. If they can find a realistic and compelling way that R&R can be in love again despite all that's happened, then they'll do it. But I think that task is a lot larger than getting Joey and Rachel together.
If Joey pushes Rachel to Ross, then the R&R fans are happy and Joey comes off smelling like a rose. That's why I think this is the most likely scenario. But the danger is that like in 812-817, if Joey's love for Rachel is written so well once again, his sacrifice may end up getting even more people on his side for Rachel, which may be the opposite of the writers' intention.
What was "inappropriate" about it, (and this was the point of contention many R&R fans had), was that Joey was pining after Rachel WHILE she was pregnant. Of course, now that she's had the baby many of those same R&R fans have decided that Joey shouldn't go after Rachel at all. But Joey's friends should be a lot more accepting of whatever he decides now that the baby has been born.
Exactly what I've been saying all along...to create a triangle situation by getting Ross to go back and try things again with Rachel. If Ross doesn't do that, then the accidental proposal loses it's meaning as to what can from it in the 9th season.
What do you think was the writer's purpose in the first half of the finale to have Joey say about Rachel, "She is like the perfect woman. I mean, I know she turned me down, but if she says yes, I would take her..." or to have Joey say to Rachel at the end, "Hey listen to me, you are never going to be alone. I promise, I won't let that happen."
If those things above aren't said, then I would totally agree with you that Joey is just some accidental obstacle in all this. But these lines, just like Ross's scene, got put in to drive home this triangle idea.
I have never argued the point that Rachel doesn't love Joey as of RIGHT NOW.
At certain points in this show's history certain characters, because of the storylines they've had and the popularity they had at that time, have become the centerpieces of the show.
For instance:
1st-3rd seasons: Clearly the focal point was R&R, no question. Joey in fact was the least popular person along with Phoebe early on in the show.
4th season: Gradually swings more towards Phoebe, and at the end becomes C&M
5th-6th season: C&M take the center stage with their relationship, and is probably the primary reason the tension begins to fade on R&R.
7th season: With the C&M wedding storyline beginning to fade, J&R's friendship starts to take over the season.
8th season: Rachel and Joey had storylines that basically controlled the season.
The characters who have taken center stage have changed over time, and right now Joey and Rachel are clearly the most popular characters on the show, and that's why I think it's going to be played up from their point of view. I think because Ross has become somewhat unpopular that the story won't be played from his point of view that much.
Agreed, but once again the key is that *we* must buy it. It's going to be really tough to find a realistic way for them to fall in love for the 18th time. Not to mention that R&R is probably the "expected" outcome, and hence extra effort would have to be made for people not to roll their eyes at how they arrive to getting R&R together.
I doubt that it will come to a close in the 200th. I think something incredibly significant will happen in that show, but I don't that will be end of it.
I've wondered about this before, but maybe you can tell me:
At this point, having seen the second half of S8, which was completely focused on the triangle (as far as media attention is concerned anyway), everybody expects Rachel to end up with either Joey or Ross. So how is Rachel picking Joey less of an expected ending than Rachel picking Ross???
Of the two outcomes realistically that Rachel has (picking Joey or Ross), which do you one think most people would expect to happen? Most people expect, whether it be R&R fans or cynical casual/J&R viewers, that the producers will have Rachel somehow pick Ross. Therefore, it's the expected outcome of the two.
If that were true, then I'd say people have not seen S8 and what was the point of the whole media attention then, if everyone believes that it's gonna be R&R in the end anyway? The producers say they haven't decided and IMO it could go either way, although I think a believable way of getting Joey and Rachel together and still find a happy ending for Ross is a lot harder to write than it would be to get R&R together and for example send Joey off to California to get back together with Kate from S3 or S4 and star in a big movie or TV show...
The storyline got media attention because it was well done and people generally liked it. It's not a coincedence that media attention fell off the map after 816 until the season finale aired. And I definitely think most of the media is pro-J&R, simply for the fact that every interview the producers have given since 812, the most frequently asked question is about this storyline.
Well, if you listen to some of the comments the producers have made, it seems like they have already made up their mind. Of course it could always be a red herring, because I would think these people are smart enough to not give away a conclusion to a storyline before it airs.
Sending Joey off with Kate gives fans of Joey probably about as much emotional satisfaction as Ross fans seeing Ross sent off with Julie. It's not going to happen.
As far as difficulty of finding a happy ending...I would think the exact opposite of what you suggested. Ross and Rachel are still in a rocky situation, with no indication currently that it's getting any better. For them to find some way to fall love again, give some indication that they won't break up again, and not make it look like it's being done for the baby is going to take a lot of hard work by the writers. And then you still have Joey, and after what has happened this past season, don't you think now his "happy ending" would involve being in love and not based on fame?
As far as a happy ending for Joey and Rachel...a lot of service would have to be done to wrap up Ross and Rachel as a couple, and have Ross land on his feet with someone else, (maybe Phoebe?), before Joey and Rachel could be a couple. I don't think the writing would be that difficult to have Rachel fall for Joey for the first time, but the hard part would be in trying to sell that's it ok for a single mom to date other people.
Not to mention married couples who are in a loving committed relationship more often than not have marriage problems after the birth of a child. For Rachel and Ross who are barely civil to each other and constantly putting down the other person to suddenly become a loving complimentary couple seems a little far fetched.
Are you serious? Do people really think it is not okay for a single mother to date? I can understand a single mother who lives with the father shouldn't date another man. But why would it not be okay for a single mother to date, providing she is not having un necessary separations from her child and is not having one partner after another circulate through the home?
And in case this comes off wrong, I am not trying to be sarcastic. I am a single mother and am honestly wondering if people would look down their nose at me and talk behind my back for dating someone other than my child's father.
"res0vdhd" wrote in message news:yhFa9.401$[email]...
That seems like a reasonable interpretation. It is R&R's current complicated situation which makes Rachel's dating problematic, not her status as a single mom. (By the way, this sauce should be for the gander, too. He shouldn't be dating either.) If Ross moved out, and their current tenative thoughts about each other ceased, there should be no conflict.
But why would it not be okay for a single mother
child
I have no problem with it. Of course, I don't really have any problem with experienced babysitters, either. I am puzzled as to how you can date without being separated from your child for a few hours, but I don't see anything wrong with it one night or so a week.
nose
Well, SOME people will look down their nose at anybody, no matter what they did. There's just no pleasing everybody. In the end, all you can do, Katie, is try to please God and yourself.
You hit the point perfectly. They are going to have to sell us on why Rachel would rather be with Ross, (who together have done nothing but bitch-slap for the past 4 years), than Joey. (who has never shown a negative feeling towards her)
I think it's perfectly fine...I mean geez with the divorce rate at 50%, chances are pretty good single moms and dads are dating a lot. But a lot of R&R fans feel the pain would be too unbearable on Emma's life if Rachel walked across the street and carelessly fell in love with someone whom she's known now for 10 years.
I can understand a single mother who lives with the father
And besides, wasn't Ross dating Mona while Rachel was pregnant??? Why can't Rachel be allowed to do the same thing?
I don't think the single mom thing is really the issue. It's about J&R vs. R&R, and either side will look for anything to further their argument, regardless of whether it happens in real life or not.
And then you still have Joey, and after what has happened
I sure do but then I also must ask this-don't you think that Ross's "happy ending" would involve being in love and able to live with his own child (as he has stated)? From the very first episode Ross said he only wanted to be married again. I know Ross isn't as cool and popular as Joey but I do think the writers want his happiness, too.
relationship
For
putting
seems
Joey and Rachel never dated. Their relationship is based on friendship and no strong emotions ever came into the picture. Strong emotions enter the picture when you have strong feelings.
I think it's come to a point where both Ross and Joey fans feel the only way either one will end up "happy" is if they are with Rachel. Maybe it's because Jennifer Aniston is such a prize in real life, who knows.
Ross and Rachel had a very contentious relationship in the 1st season before they got together. Ross always thought she was in her own little world, and didn't care about anyone else, yet he still wanted to be with her.
Even when Joey fell in love with Rachel, (which does involve having strong emotions for someone), he never went negative on Rachel, even after being turned down.
I'm not sure what you mean about the contentious relationship in the first season. Ross was frustrated by Rachel at times but he always showed her he cared about her. He knew she wasn't perfect, yes, but who is?
Still apples and oranges. Being in a relationship with someone changes the picture. Boyfriends & girlfriends, husbands & wives, all have a stronger emotional attachment because the relationship simply matters more. Why would Joey go negative on Rachel, anyway? They have a good close friendship without any "issues" that could have come up from dating over a long period.
Ross was constantly irritated that Rachel couldn't recognize his feelings. Of course, he neglected the fact that he never could scrounge up the courage to tell her. So basically, he occasionally got mad at Rachel for something that he couldn't do.
How is the situation any different? Ross had one-sided feelings in the first season for Rachel, and was frequently frustrated and tempermental with her for her not recognizing it. Joey had one-sided feelings in the eighth season, and was more afraid of how she would feel than being mad at her for not feeling the same way.
Being in a relationship with someone changes
Ross and Rachel had a close friendship before they became lovers, and you can't honestly say even their friendship wasn't full of tension. They don't bring out the best in each other, plain and simple.
Well, man, we just are not going to agree on anything - which is fine; this isn't exactly of earthshattering importance, and at any rate we are just making predictions until the show begins again anyway. But a few clarifying notes:
Joey's conflict always centered around two opposite points: his desire for Rachel versus the fear that he was betraying Ross by feeling this way. Without Ross in the mix, Joey has no reason to say "terrified" when asked if he is afraid, and the story is resolved in two episodes. Joey knows he can easily get most women. Ross is what made this hard for him.
Provide evidence that "the audience" was "pissed".
suitor
agree
was
Ross
Well, some audience members will buy it no matter what. Some will buy it only if it's done really well, and some wouldn't buy it if Ross turned into Prince Charming and Joey became a toad. I think some attitudes are pretty thoroughly entrenched. BCK will not pacify fanatics; they will write the show they wish to tell.
They can make Ross and
Why are they required to justify why Rachel doesn't love Joey? She just doesn't. We all know attractive members of the opposite sex that for some reason just didn't twirl our feathers.
Ah, here we go. Rather than statements of ironclad certainty, you have produced a simple prediction, and quite a plausible one. Fine. It will be fun to see if you are right. Actually, I think Joey gallantry may be VERY likely - the only question is whether or not it will sway her heart or just make him look like a good guy to us.
Well, hon, based on what I've said before, can you guess? :-) Grin. Sorry, my grandmother used to do this to us, do the whole "Don't you agree" thing to something that we obviously did not agree with. It drove us bonkers.
with
Ummmm, lemme think...
after
I think she loves him. You don't. Okey dokey, it's a TV show, not politics.
between me
You are entitled to believe that.
If Ross and
Well, yeah. Neither pairing is sealed yet. Either matchup will require events from the ninth season to make it firm, but both have some foundation in what came before.
Wasn't that the episode where Ross tells Rachel how he would have proposed to her, and she dreamily agrees that this would have been hard to turn down?
.... How was it open? She said no and he dropped it like a hot potato. They pried it back open for the finale.
I don't think the writers would
Joey's behavior was not realistic. Rachel's was.
Yep. Whatever THEY THINK makes good television. Remember that what these folks thinks make good television doesn't always agree with us.
Well, actually, in season seven A LOT of people got weary and bored with that couple. I was so disgusted I tuned out altogether. Over on Mighty Big TV they have a multiple choice poll on who the biggest bitch in TV was, and Monica was one of the nominees. One of the reasons Perry finally got his nod this year is that they allowed him to do something besides hand around Monica to the exclusion of all others every single damned episode without end.
but really
Hands, feet, friend's feet, The Friend's hands and feet, the entire staff's hands and feet... and yes, they also have their stalwart fans. Opinion is all over the place, so BKC will please themselves.
Yes. On this point, we are agreed. The producers will do what they feel is compelling and realistic -whether we agree with their choices or not. This is their toy, not ours.
Joey virtually ignored Rachel for something like five straight episodes and three months. That issue was dead. If he had not mentioned his love again it would have seemed to the casual viewer like it came from left field with no antecedent. That scene was absolutely necessary in order for the cliffhanger to make any sense.
Ah, but a post ago you said that I needed to realize that Joey and Ross are on equal footing. Now you are saying that Ross does not deserve equal footing. You are contradicting yourself. And we are back to square one; we each think one of the men is in a stronger position than the other, and only time will tell which one of us is right.
Well, I can certainly live with that.
and
instead.
I'm going to come on over to your side for a moment.
Let's assume you are entirely correct in every word of your interpretation. Joey truly oves and deserves Rachel. As her delivery nears, Rachel turns to Ross out of sheer panic. After being badgered a bit with unhelpful advice from meddlesome Phoebe, Ross reluctantly drags himself into a position of wooing Rachel again. Then, Joey accidentally turns around with the ring and Rachel accepts what she thinks is his marriage proposal, possibly revealing some subliminal attraction.
If this interpretation is what the writers intended us to see, then your gratification is certain. It would be a dismal and dreary ending for Rachel to hook up in fear with a guy she doesn't really like, and who doesn't actually want her, because they are facing what is essentially a shotgun wedding dictated by peer pressure. If your interpretation of events is right JOEY WILL GET THE GIRL.
And with that, I think I'll leave this until we actually get something new to talk about.
Well sweetie, I could have told you that from the beginning.
I guess that's why the episode is titled "The One Where Joey Tells Rachel", because the pivotal role is him telling Ross in all this? Uh, no.
If the shows had been titled "The One Where Joey Dates/Tells Ross's Ex", then I think you have a point. But nearly Joey's entire hesistation about his feelings was that he was afraid Rachel wouldn't feel the same way about him, and possibly ruin their friendship. Ross's whole objection to it was over before the first commerical break in the episode Joey told him.
Provide evidence that the audience wasn't.
I assume you read message boards. Go read a lot around the end of May and you'll find that I'm right in this regard. Not to mention some television critics found the ending incredibly contrived.
I thought after "Joey Dates Rachel", even a lot of R&R fanatics weren't objected to the idea once they saw it. The point is that good writing and acting can make anyone change their minds. If it's done really well, I might even accept an R&R reunion, and likewise if a J&R pairing is done well, you too might accept it.
In reality, Rachel probably wouldn't give reasons to not loving Joey. But at some point in this sitcom, since Joey still has feelings for Rachel, the only way closure of the idea of J&R can be obtained is if either Rachel admits why she can't love Joey, or if Joey falls out of love with Rachel. The writers have learned from their past mistake of trying to just drop it and hope people will forget.
And none of your statements are made with the same type of certainty?? Let me refer you to the "stared daggers" post again.
I think it's a safe bet that if Joey does push Rachel to Ross, and it sways the audience's heart, it will eventually sway Rachel's.
Well, I want to hear you say it. Instead of hints and suggestions, I want to know point blank what you think about this opinion.
Well, you question the sincereity of Rachel's acceptance of Joey's "proposal", I'm just questioning the sincereity of Rachel's kisses in a highly emotional time for her.
Actually that was 818, TO In Massapequa. And that was the episode immediately after the J&R storyline "ended", so one wonders if they weren't related.
How about when Joey tried to explain about how it was nice they were talking again, as soon as he starts talking about his feelings for Rachel they have a longing moment of silence staring at each other. They pried nothing open in the finale that people who respected the impact of the J&R storyline didn't see coming.
Hence the need for Rachel to explain her feelings, which I'm sure she'll do in this upcoming season.
They usually have been right on what they think makes good television turns out to be good television. And yes, it's my opinion that there are hundreds more interesting storylines that can be made out of a J&R relationship than can be done out of another R&R relationship. And that's what makes good television, interesting storylines that can end up going any number of ways.
The point is that M&C and J&R haven't faced the strong dissent that R&R has because the genesis of those relationships and how they progressed in regards to their characters were very realistic. They didn't have Paolo's cat run across the table and attack Joey when he was trying to tell Rachel he loved her as a way to delay the matter.
AHA!! Thank you! You just proved my whole point for this matter. Both scenes of Joey admitting he still cared for Rachel, AND Ross being convinced by Phoebe to go after Rachel were necessary for the triangle to have any meaning.
You missed my point. Ross is on equal footing with Joey in terms that they are not "guest star obstacles", but rather main character protagonists. In terms of who gets Rachel in the end I think that's important. But in terms how this storyline plays out, it'll most likely be played from Rachel or Joey's POV and the decision will come from them, because they are the ones who got put in the situation the cliffhanger rests at now, and let's face it, they are the ones with the difficult choice to make.
Well, you can *try* to come over to this side...
At this point, I think you generally got it right.
This is where I think you go wrong. It should be quite obvious by now that no J&R relationship is going to DIRECTLY come from the "marriage proposal" accident. It's a shame you can't see how obvious of a point that is to most J&R fans.
What most of us are counting on in the denouemont of this cliffhanger is that this accident might get Rachel to rethink about her feelings for Joey, or like I said before, have Joey be a gallant guy and put aside his feelings and push Rachel to Ross, which in the end would probably win her heart.
Honestly, I see a lot more opportunity for Joey to be a hero in this situation than Ross. Do you really see Ross pusing Rachel to Joey, or something along the lines of that?
Well, I'm one of those who has to get in the last word, so if you are true to your word, then this should be the end of it, for now...
Phoebe is eccentric, but Joey's appeal is that he's a regular Joe. And since Phoebe's a vegetarian, and Joey is about the complete opposite of a vegetarian, they have little in common as a base to start a relationship.
Since Chandler tried to convience Monica that he could BE a boyfriend at the beach (which was at the Season 3 to 4 break, I guess) I waited for them. I wonder what took em so long ;o))
On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:40:07 +0200, "Jens Murer" wrote:
Dan Silverstein, who sometimes posts here made a website for his excellent fanfic around the time of the 3rd season, called Chandler & Monica, in which he created an entire fictional season of episodes of C&M's spin-off sitcom after the last episode of Friends (called The Last One, natch). You'll have to ask him where it came from, but I think a lot of us just really loved that moment in 123 (?) when Chandler promises Monica he'll marry her if she's not married by 30.